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WB2RJR
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« Reply #75 on: August 27, 2005, 09:31:51 PM »

1 ton of coal has the same energy as 150 gals of heating oil.

Cost of 150 gals X $2.15/gal = $322.50

1 ton  of coal Costs $50-60

http://www.meyermfg.com/woodchuck.html

All money spent on coal stays in the US, Same is true mostly for natural gas as well (Canada sells natural gas to us mainly because we don't have enough pipelines) There are shut in gas wells in the US because all the pipelines to the NE are full and there is no pipeline in the north going east.

What are 8.1 million people heating their house with oil for?(6.3 million in the NE).

Note a KWH contains 3412 BTU, you need to burn or input 10,280 BTU at the power plant to make it. No electricity in this country should be generated by anything except nuclear power. We have loads and loads of uranium. I have a friend who has found millions of tons of it. Once again all the money and jobs stay here.

Oil resevers of Saudi Arabia 280 billion BO
US oil resevers in oil shale 3000 billion BO

Oil shale will be economic when the price of oil gets a little higher than it was in 1981 in real dollars. It's not there yet. Yes, that's right, you were paying more for oil and gasoline in 1981 in real dollars than you are now. Then all the jobs and money can stay here.

73 Marty WB2RJR

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« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2005, 08:41:08 AM »

Thanks Marty for the information. Please post more often.
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W1RKW
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« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2005, 09:04:32 AM »

Mom!! Marty's causing trouble again!! 

Just try and burn that stuff on a large scale and the environmentalists will be screaming up a storm. They'll fight tooth and nail to disallow the mining of coal because they might say an endangered worm or slug inhabits the area.

Good info Marty, thanks.


1 ton of coal has the same energy as 150 gals of heating oil.

Cost of 150 gals X $2.15/gal = $322.50

1 ton  of coal Costs $50-60

http://www.meyermfg.com/woodchuck.html

All money spent on coal stays in the US, Same is true mostly for natural gas as well (Canada sells natural gas to us mainly because we don't have enough pipelines) There are shut in gas wells in the US because all the pipelines to the NE are full and there is no pipeline in the north going east.

What are 8.1 million people heating their house with oil for?(6.3 million in the NE).

Note a KWH contains 3412 BTU, you need to burn or input 10,280 BTU at the power plant to make it. No electricity in this country should be generated by anything except nuclear power. We have loads and loads of uranium. I have a friend who has found millions of tons of it. Once again all the money and jobs stay here.

Oil resevers of Saudi Arabia 280 billion BO
US oil resevers in oil shale 3000 billion BO

Oil shale will be economic when the price of oil gets a little higher than it was in 1981 in real dollars. It's not there yet. Yes, that's right, you were paying more for oil and gasoline in 1981 in real dollars than you are now. Then all the jobs and money can stay here.

73 Marty WB2RJR


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Bob
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« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2005, 10:11:05 AM »

Mom!! Marty's causing trouble again!!

Just try and burn that stuff on a large scale and the environmentalists will be screaming up a storm. They'll fight tooth and nail to disallow the mining of coal because they might say an endangered worm or slug inhabits the area.


We already burn coal on a large scale in power plants, and fairly cleanly, too, with modern pollution controls. But let me tell you, you do *not* want your neighbor burning soft coal in their home, if that's what you mean by large scale...It's legal to do so in many areas around here and I once had a neighbor that heated with coal. I used to pick up chunks of coal that fell off of nearby trains and toss them into my stove, too.
The smoke will gag you. Horrid. Residential use of coal for heating is not a good idea!

Like others have said, it's time to bring back the nuke industry and make a decision as to where to dispose of the waste. Then do it. This has gone on too long now.

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W2VW
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« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2005, 10:33:37 AM »


Like others have said, it's time to bring back the nuke industry and make a decision as to where to dispose of the waste. Then do it. This has gone on too long now.



We can put the waste on a C141 and send it to our friends in the desert. 
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Glenn NY4NC
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« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2005, 12:55:59 PM »

That may have been the case as far as the electric toy airplanes that were available in your typical local gas plane hobby shop back in 95. There was much resistance (pardon the pun) to the higher performance electrics by the owners of hobby shops back then, even to the point of promoting false information about electrics, I witnessed this first hand on more than one occasion. Fact is, even without a brushless motor and fancy Lithium cell, a properly configured electric plane, with a geared brushed motor can perform just like a gas plane. But don't take my word for it... Take a drive upstate New York in Sept and check ot the annual N.E.A.T. fair (Northeast Electric Aircraft Technology fair) run by a club from Long Island (Silent Electric Flyers of Long Island). This is a three day event and the largest gathering of electric flyers in the country. You'll see first hand, high performance sport planes, scale warbirds, commercial planes and sailplanes all powered by electric motors. It is quite an eyeful to see a 10ft wingspan, scale B-17 bomber flying low and slow across the field (powered by four standard brushed electric motors running on good old nicad cells)

The club I belong to (Bergen County Silent Flyers) sponsors technical seminars that run throughout the course of the three day event.

Here's a link to the website of the fair....

http://www.neatfair.org/



I last flew RC around 95 or so, and back then electric engines weren't much good unless you had them in a glider and used them to climb to altitude.
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John Holotko
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« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2005, 06:34:45 PM »

Mom!! Marty's causing trouble again!! 

Just try and burn that stuff on a large scale and the environmentalists will be screaming up a storm. They'll fight tooth and nail to disallow the mining of coal because they might say an endangered worm or slug inhabits the area.

No,  I think most scientists are talking about the negative effect on HUMAN lives resulting from the widespread mining and usage of coal and fossil fuels.  I largely agree with them. I don't think additional widespread burning of coal is the best of ideas inn terms of health and sustainability. Sooner or later you  gotta pay for  what you do today.
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John Holotko
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« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2005, 06:42:58 PM »

Quote
Only problem I have with the electrics is that they are too quiet. I grew up with model  aircraft flying. For a large part of my life I was into gas powered control line, U control.

Yes! nice and quiet!.. one of the reasons I didn't want to fly gas planes was that god awful noise.. sounds like a swarm of giant bees  Shocked Control line? that always amazed me how they didn't get dizzy and fall down after going around in a circle for 5 mins.. Grin {/quote]

gas was the thing that attracted me to the hobby. The idea that such a small thing actually burns fuel was what fascinated me from when I was a  kid. Plus I always found the sound of a roaring and screaming engine exciting, it ads a dimension of sound. On the other hand quiet electrics are more likely to be accepted in society. One of the reasons flying sites were always stuck in out of the way areas is because of the noise factor.

Contro line flying and dizziness is strange. You don't get dizzy. At least I never did. I've flown 20 minute flights in a circle  and walked away without the least bit of dizziness. Some of the most exciting flying I have ever done was via control line.
 


Quote
The new electrics are pretty amazing and  you're right, the performance is incredible and in all seriousness I am interested in building one  one day. But I am still addicted to the scream of a gas engine, the smell of glow fuel (alcohol + nitro) and that thick film of unburned castor  +  synthetic oil that sprays out of the exhaust ports and literally covers the whole damned plane.

You should try them John... amazing stuff... you won't miss those slimers one bit, and you can throw away your chicken stick!  Grin Grin Grin







Quote
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Glenn NY4NC
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« Reply #83 on: August 29, 2005, 10:29:15 AM »

Very interesting... Have you ever seen control line combat? where two guys are flying in the same circle? ducking under and over each other!! man that's wild!!


Quote
Contro line flying and dizziness is strange. You don't get dizzy. At least I never did. I've flown 20 minute flights in a circle  and walked away without the least bit of dizziness. Some of the most exciting flying I have ever done was via control line.

 
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #84 on: August 29, 2005, 10:43:52 AM »

The last time I bought coal of any quality it was $150 a ton. It does make nice heat.
I'm in favor of nuke power myself. we have a nice facility in Nevada for the waste.
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Art
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« Reply #85 on: August 29, 2005, 05:18:00 PM »

Yes, that darn republican administration:
*     They keep us from drilling for oil on our own land and from constructing more refineries and even go to court to assure oil drilling leases along CA are not extended.
*     They have single handedly built up the Chinese economy as a tool to increase the demand and force the prices of gasoline in states that didn't support them in the presidential election.
*     They continue to jack up the oil prices as a pre election ploy to keep all the folks who would vote for the other side at home.
*     They are going to cut off your welfare check.
*     They endanger your social security entitlement.
*     They will cause the super volcano to erupt by cutting taxes again.

-ap
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John Holotko
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« Reply #86 on: August 29, 2005, 06:18:06 PM »

Yes, that darn republican administration:
*     They keep us from drilling for oil on our own land and from constructing more refineries and even go to court to assure oil drilling leases along CA are not extended.
*     They have single handedly built up the Chinese economy as a tool to increase the demand and force the prices of gasoline in states that didn't support them in the presidential election.
*     They continue to jack up the oil prices as a pre election ploy to keep all the folks who would vote for the other side at home.
*     They are going to cut off your welfare check.
*     They endanger your social security entitlement.
*     They will cause the super volcano to erupt by cutting taxes again.

-ap

Yep,  ya gotta love em.
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John Holotko
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« Reply #87 on: August 29, 2005, 06:22:11 PM »

Very interesting... Have you ever seen control line combat? where two guys are flying in the same circle? ducking under and over each other!! man that's wild!!


Quote
Contro line flying and dizziness is strange. You don't get dizzy. At least I never did. I've flown 20 minute flights in a circle  and walked away without the least bit of dizziness. Some of the most exciting flying I have ever done was via control line.


yep,  I've even seen more that 2 flying at the same time in the same circle. A lot of the guys use  pressurized tanks on those combat planes. The tank is basically a rubber bladder filled with gas (glow fuel) to manntain an even pressure regardless of the amount of gas on board or the attitude of the aircraft.

I flew mostly control line stunt. I have also been know to fly 2 planes at  once.
 
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W1RKW
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« Reply #88 on: August 30, 2005, 06:39:50 AM »

Art, You forgot to mention they're creating hurricanes too and aiming them at the oil drilling rigs in the gulf.


Yes, that darn republican administration:
*     They keep us from drilling for oil on our own land and from constructing more refineries and even go to court to assure oil drilling leases along CA are not extended.
*     They have single handedly built up the Chinese economy as a tool to increase the demand and force the prices of gasoline in states that didn't support them in the presidential election.
*     They continue to jack up the oil prices as a pre election ploy to keep all the folks who would vote for the other side at home.
*     They are going to cut off your welfare check.
*     They endanger your social security entitlement.
*     They will cause the super volcano to erupt by cutting taxes again.

-ap
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Bob
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His fear was when I turned it on for the first time life on earth would come to a stand still.
John Holotko
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« Reply #89 on: August 30, 2005, 09:12:20 AM »

Art, You forgot to mention they're creating hurricanes too and aiming them at the oil drilling rigs in the gulf.
{/quote]

Well,  maybe thay ain't doing those things but the ones that are runnin the show are doing quite a job of wrecking the economy and pretty much the country.
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Art
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« Reply #90 on: August 30, 2005, 12:18:39 PM »

"Art, You forgot to mention they're creating hurricanes too and aiming them at the oil drilling rigs in the gulf."

Yep, my sarcasm was raging a little out of control. It is difficult to grant credibility when bias is so obvious in either direction.

The economy. . . . 5% unemployment (however you measure it) is pretty darn good, I am making money in the stock market, GDP is up, tax revenues are *increasing* in the face of tax cuts (for a reference on this concept google Keynes, it hasn't changed), people are being paid for their contributions to society and industry.
So, other than the price of oil (which is exacerbated by our inability to use our own resources and increase refining capacity . . .) what's the problem with the economy?

I really wish the Dems would come up with a strong leader that would clean house, stand on a platform, and kick some ass, rather than object and present problems without solutions.



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John Holotko
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« Reply #91 on: August 30, 2005, 03:55:14 PM »

"Art, You forgot to mention they're creating hurricanes too and aiming them at the oil drilling rigs in the gulf."

Yep, my sarcasm was raging a little out of control. It is difficult to grant credibility when bias is so obvious in either direction.

The economy. . . . 5% unemployment (however you measure it) is pretty darn good, I am making money in the stock market, GDP is up, tax revenues are *increasing* in the face of tax cuts (for a reference on this concept google Keynes, it hasn't changed), people are being paid for their contributions to society and industry.
So, other than the price of oil (which is exacerbated by our inability to use our own resources and increase refining capacity . . .) what's the problem with the economy?
Quote

5% unemployment however you measure it ?? How is that possible ?  Unemploment rates are laregly based on the number of people registered for and receiving unemployment benefits at any given time.  Beyond that it  is not nessesarily  a good barometer for the overall health of the economy.  It says little  or nothing about the quality of the jobs that are available to Americans nor does it address wages, costs of living, health benefits, etc. The reality is that under Bush the rate of job growth is not competing with population growth and the need for jobs. Furthermore, as companies outsource work to overseas employers and/or scale back their work forcethere are few public insights into what kinds of jobs are being made available. Are they compatable with regards to wages, benefits, quality working conditions etc. A person who's job as  a professional  engineer being replaced  by a job cooking  frankfurters at McDonalds would not be saying much for healthy quality job growth.

Furthermore gas prices don;t operate  in a bubble. When Americans have to pay more and more at the pumps they have less and less available for  other things.  Sure, in parts of Europe people pay more for gas  than they do here. But also a larger part of what they pay for gas goes into government taxes which, at least theoretically, comes back to them in the form of government services, etc.  When we pay > 3.00 for gas here little if any of that amount (theoretically)  comes back..

And wtth regards to irresponsible spending, borrowing money and creating a massive deficit this administration is analogous to a very materialistic girlfriend borrowing her rich boyfriends credit card and then heading to Sak's 5th Avenue. for the day.  Sooner or later that credit card is gonna come back to haunt us.

Of course Bush and/or republicans in general can;t be entirely blamed for economic failures. The democrats have traditionally displayed their ineptness  over and  over  again.  A robust democratic candidate with a real and viable plan would probably  be good for all of us. But I don;t expect  to see  such a candidate anytime soon.

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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #92 on: August 30, 2005, 05:27:42 PM »

Gee Art I  figured you would be still blaming Clinton......oh well after 5 years of something much worse.....

Republicraps have made the dems look conservative. Now that has taken some doing and they still seem to hold on to the blind faith followers.

Us poor boys down here in  reality land are getting worried about our senior years and even more our kids.

Glad the select few at the top still have it all under control.
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Steve W8TOW
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« Reply #93 on: August 31, 2005, 08:43:10 AM »

 :oJust hit $3.11 / gal for 87 oct here in Lansing MI....thanks goodness I can
ride a bike....
dit dit dit dah
73 steve
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Always buiilding & fixing stuff. Current station is a "Old Buzzard" KW, running a pair of Taylor T-200's modulated by Taylor 203Z's; Johnson 500 / SX-101A; Globe King 400B / BC-1004; and Finally, BC-610 with SX28  CU 160m morn & 75m wkends.
73  W8TOW
w1guh
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« Reply #94 on: August 31, 2005, 09:06:18 AM »

As for who's causing the hurricanes?  It's clear that there's some sorta connection between them and the Iranians.  Guess we better hurry up and expand the quagmire into that country, too, before another storm hits.  It's a slam dunk that we'll find evidence to prove this soon's we kill enough people.

BTW... I understand that Berthoud, CO, Beachwood NJ, and Enfield, CT are ideal places to store nu-ku-lar waste.  It's clear that they've solved all the problems associated with storing very toxic materials for longer than civilization's been around (at least as we know it.)


"Peace is at hand."

73,

Paul


The above text is pure satire and sarcasm except for the "73"
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #95 on: August 31, 2005, 12:04:34 PM »

Paul,
Years ago they wanted to build a low level dump a couple miles south but the yuppies went crazy. Good thing. Right in the middle of corn country used as feed.The site in nevada is out in the middle of the wide open desert. Didn't they dig the stuff out of the ground out there anyway??

CNN is talking $4 soon so stock up.

Don't worry we have no inflation big Al writing a mombo jumbo speach to assure us everything is under control.
"pay no attention to the guy behind the curtin"
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w1guh
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« Reply #96 on: August 31, 2005, 12:52:49 PM »

"The site in nevada is out in the middle of the wide open desert."

Totally so...and probably stable enough to withstand any "normal" tectonic plate movement.  At least for the next few centuries.  But as I understand it, we're talking tens of thousands of years.  These kinds of numbers give me pause.  There's no way we can predict what'll be there then.  We've got enough of the stuff now to be a major worry.  It would seem prudent to have this problem of disposing of the waste (that seems intractable today) solved before we start increasing how much we make.  Obviously, there will be no problem in our lifetimes, or even the lifetimes of our children and our children's children.  But what abou the year 5000 (assuming we actually last that long?), or even 10000?

For example, what if whoever built the pyramids built them to store a very dangerous substance.  Would the original archeoligists who explored them known enough not to mess with them?  Had there been warning signs, would we have interpreted them correctly?  And this example is "only" after 5000 years.

Or is it even reasonable to worry about our descendants so far in the future?

Just food for thought.
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W3SLK
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« Reply #97 on: August 31, 2005, 03:55:30 PM »

I didn't think it was Nevada, I thought it was the Yucca Mountains in New Mexico.
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Mike(y)/W3SLK
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Art
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« Reply #98 on: August 31, 2005, 04:08:14 PM »

"Of course Bush and/or republicans in general can;t be entirely blamed for economic failures. The democrats have traditionally displayed their ineptness  over and  over  again.  A robust democratic candidate with a real and viable plan would probably  be good for all of us. But I don;t expect  to see  such a candidate anytime soon."

You are right John. That's the point I was making.
When we P&M gas is too expensive but insist we save the spotted dodo by not drilling on our own turf and the albino suburbinite nimby bitching about refineries, the hypocricy is overwhelming. This situation  is pretty much independent of the politico de jour. Bringing in the economy, quality of jobs, and other important but peripheral issues just fogs the glass . . . great discussion points though.

We either become more independent from our foriegn sources of fuel or accept external control over a major element of our day to day life.
Keynes was correct even here . . . $3++/gal will motivate us to cut back on consumption and become more creative in our processes and products. The innovation will not occur unless there is pain.




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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #99 on: August 31, 2005, 08:20:14 PM »

Today prices went up 30 to 60 cents!
The station around the corner got gas Friday. The price has gone up 40 cents since. Where the heck are the beltway bandits.
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