The AM Forum

We saw $3.11 driving through Colchester ct. last night. First time over $3.

Thank you Mr. Bush.   

I know, it's crazy. And  this administration has 3 more years  to go. What will we be looking at 4 or maye 5 dollars a gallon by than ??

In places like  NY they really got people over a barrel (no pun intended). The priced people  out of the city so they have to move 50, 100  miles away. Yet they need the job, the job is in the city, there is not enough public transportation so they have no choice but to drive and burn the gas. At this rate how long will they be able to afford to buy gas to get  to work ??

AND WE HAVE NO INFLATION YOU KNOW!

One cannot help but wonder what all is behind this.  Particularly, it is interesting to note how certain areas and communities seem to be singled out for even higher than average gas prices!  The Fort Wayne, IN area for instance,  is generally always 5-15% higher than average in the state.  It is also interesting to note also that Allen County (which includes Fort Wayne) has had one of the highest vehicle per capita ratios in the U.S.  Could it be, that we have a little marketeering strategy here?  Hmmm...Maximize profits, while working on the areas with high concentration of useage.  As the saying goes....Whatever the market will bear.   >:(  >:(

Its all part of the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" don't you know.
Yep, the boys from Texas have conspired with the folks in D.C. raise the price of gas in all of the "Blue States".

In the real world, most of what you pay at the pump is a direct result of state and federal taxes.
I doubt our goverment has the ability or time to coordinate a gas price comspiracy.
"Targeting" certain areas and communities, please, thats a direct result of an Air America OD.

Let's be real here.
Did you think it might cost more to truck gas into NYC?
Or to store gas in NYC?
Or service the facilities in NYC?
Or that ground rents are more expensive in NYC?

Property owners and investors need a favorable ROI.
If it costs more to do business in a certain city or state, then the customer pays more.
Its nothing personal, its simple math.
Of course the same thing holds true in rual areas as well.
As the cost of doing business rises, so to much retail prices rise.

In my mind, gas prices are like the weather, pointless to complain about because they can not be changed.
I don't even pay attention to the pump price anymore.
I know I am getting hosed and would rather think about more pleasent things.
Fuel prices are a necessary evil to obtain and do the things which bring me enjoyment, like hamfests.

I just glad that I am in America where I can do what I want, say what I want and drive what I want.
I'll pay an extra $5-10 per week in gas costs for that privledge.

Do I hear an Amen?
Or at least a "God Bless Mel Gibon"?  ;D

Supply and demand rears it's ugly head. People are still cruising at 80 MPH on the Parkway here. Guess the $3.00 plus price is not impacting them enough to actually think about conserving.
The price will rise more if the demand stays where it is. Economics 095.

Property owners and investors need a favorable ROI.
If it costs more to do business in a certain city or state, then the customer pays more.
Its nothing personal, its simple math.
Of course the same thing holds true in rual areas as well.
As the cost of doing business rises, so to much retail prices rise.

I don't really disagree with this statement conceptually, however, something  far more out of the ordinary is at work here when surrounding "rural areas"  generally have much lower gas prices.  This has been observed over quite a long period of time.  Also, if anything, it is less expensive to market within the larger concentrated market area in consideration of delivery costs, etc.  As for the "Right -Wing  Conspiracy" .......that is the usual cop-out that is heard when something is wrong and unexplained.  I'm really not convinced that government involvement has either caused, or added to the problem.  I do know that it hasn't done anything to improve it.  Where was all of the concern when everybody was buying SUVs and Trucks and using gas like it was water?  What I do believe is that in a free market society the consumer ultimately has the most powerful weapon....don't buy it if the price is too high!!  Find alternatives, develop ways to get around high prices and go on with our lives the best that we can.  Here's hoping the Hydrogen fueled car is getting closer to reality on a large scale.

its hard to pin it all on bush. we are drinking more oil everyday.
I was around for the 74 and 79 gas crunches as I'm sure many
of you were. not fun. then we switched to enconomical cars.
now its sherman tanks on the road, and I have to watch em
driving my corolla!

Frank,
Where in my dumb town did you see $3.11?  What gas station? What grade of fuel?
Bob

Yet we are told there is no relation to  record oil company profits and record prices. I'm sure Pin Head will get right on it as soon as he gets back from his 5 week vacation.

[AND WE HAVE NO INFLATION YOU KNOW!]

High fuel prices do not cause inflation any more than high prices for Rolling Stones concerts or 3-500Z's.

Inflation comes only as the result of government(s), via either fiscal policy (government taxing & spending) or monetary policy (lending & credit practices), increasing the money supply beyond the growth of goods & services offered for sale in the economy.  This results in more dollars bidding for the same quantity of goods & services. The "demand" measured in $'s increases for the same "supply" of goods & services resulting in a higher general price level.

This inflationary  increase in  the money supply is "accomplished" via fiscal policy when govenments "monetize" their debt. That is they print money on their printing presses to pay the government's bills.  This leads to no net increase in the economy's goods & services, but a big increase in the economy's supply of money.

This inflationary  increase in  the money supply is "accomplished" via monetary policy when  central banks ( like our Federal Reserve), ease interest rates & bank reserve requirements & through their open market activities (selling treasury bills).

I read it somewhere, that it's all Rockefeller's Revenge... I can't remember where I read it...

Could it be that certain local and state blending regulations, ala "designer fuel" be part of the problem?  Seems as if I heard that somewhere.  If NY, CA, CO and NM could use the same fuel we do in rural OK, then all refineries would be on the same sheet of music.  That might impact high prices.

Gas is around $2.679 to $2.879 in northern Virginia.  I guess it could be over $3.00 on I-95 and such.

Sadly, I'm only noticing that it's the truckers that seem to be slowing down a bit...On a recent run from here to Chicago I noticed very few truckers exceeding the posted interstate speed limits.

I'm of a mind that if we could all achieve even a 1 MPG improvement is efficiency, the ~5% reduction in national fuel consumption would cause pump prices to greatly drop.  And I don't believe that there's a single vehicle out there that couldn't get a lousy 1 MPG better average mileage, by inflating tires, slowing down a tiny bit, or getting a tune up.

It's too bad that the President can't emulate his predecessors during times of crisis by bringing this to everyone's attention- Start by playing leader...
Jimmy Carter got a lot of crap for wearing a cardigan sweater while asking Americans to conserve energy, but we got the message. It worked. That's what a president *should* be doing.

All it'll take is a 1 MPG effort on the part of Americans to buy us time as our petroleum problems are worked on and we transition to 21st Century solutions.

The other issue is infrastructure...We're constantly hearing that our lack of refining capacity is a large contributor to fuel prices..
I also have to ask why, when making record profits, the petroleum companies aren't building new or expanding their existing refineries- Investing in their own businesses and building them up.  I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, but the question begs asking.
If you can make $X with your present business, why invest $Y if it'll reduce the selling price and profits from your products? Even though doing so would be in the national interest?

See, it's not just the hard-core enviros that aren't helping this country...

(rant mode off)

..

But what if the whole country would take Two Days and don't drive, Just stop, Saturday and Sunday, Nobody could do it though we're to entrenched on personal Mobile access.

But think of the impact....

Jack, it doesn't matter how we help ourselves by reducing petroleum consumption, maybe some people could not drive on weekends as you suggest, maybe for others it's easier slowing down from 80 to 75 MPH...Or buying a hi-tech air filter...or running your tires up 2 PSI...Or running some injector cleaner though the pipes. I buy biodiesel fuel at $3/gallon when convenient to get it...THAT money stays in the the good ol USA, not to Sheik Yerbootie. It all adds up.
Does "Waste not, want not" still apply in the 21st Century? You bet it does.

Well start with Local and State taxes on the new construction and it's products at year end.  Add to that EPA regulations that require new construction exceed standards that present operations meet  and the cost is out of site.  If substantial enlargements or improvements are made to an existing plant, the new rules apply.  Add to that the cost of litigation when there is an accident (yes they do happen, not all are preventable) or fuel spill.  Check your auto policy, I would bet it contanins some clause either paying for or not  paying for environmental clean up following an accident.

We need to look inward to our expectation as to what can be reasonably accomplished in a short period of time at reasonable costs rather than believe the moon will be on our doorstep tomorrow.

Here on I 35 between Dallas and Oklahoma City if we could just get the people who live in OKC, Tulsa, Kansas, Nebraska, New Mexico, Wyoming, Montana, and Colorado to  just drive 5 miles over the posted speed limit, we would save a bunch of fuel and the local residents lives would be much safer.  I almost forgot Louisana.

Here is some data from the California Energy Commission for the week ended 8/1/05. They track fuel prices and costs & profits along the production & distribution chain.

California Energy Commission      
Gasoline Price Breakdown & Margins Details      
      
Week Ended                                                      08/01/05     %
Distribution Costs, Marketing Costs and Profits         $0.12       4.7%
Crude Oil Cost                                                         $1.42     55.7%
Refinery Cost and Profits                                         $0.49     19.2%
Federal State and Local Sales Taxes                         $0.52     20.4%
Retail price                                                         $2.55    100.0%

Bill,

I like your point about keeping your petrol dollars in-country, that I do agree with.

But please explain how lowering the national fuel consumption will directly result in lower fuel costs?
I can't see the relationship.
Yes, I understand Supply and Demand, so give me a bit more tangiable.
What it sounds like you are saying is that wholesale energy costs and supply have remained fixed, but in the real world neither of those metrics are static.


-Bruce

Amen.

Your price is a total, of price, profit (pennies), and tax.

Some taxes are $/gal and some are % of sale (sales tax is just one) and they can come from (go to) local, county, state, and federal sources (destinations).

As I recall, when I last worked at a gas station in the 90's, in W NY, when gas was somewhere under a dollar and a half, 85 cents per gallon was the cost of fuel, and an average of 42 cents went to taxes (not including sales tax).

Bruce, I'm thinking that if we can reduce petro use by a few percent, than a few of the factors that have driven up fuel prices will be improved. One factor is refinery utilization, which instead of being ~95% as it is today, would be cut to 90%. That could reduce market price jitters, especially if a major refinery had problems. And, yes, there *are* the laws of supply-n-demand and friends that you can't completely discount.

My other comment  is for Jim. OK, I understand the daunting obstacles to building or expanding refineries. But we've seen that we can overcome obstacles when we want to.
Sure a new major refinery could be built! It could be built and privately owned, and doesn't have to be in American territory. What some piss-poor Carribean island nation would give to host a mega-refinery.
There's planty of coastal cities in this country that would welcome the business and jobs in a heartbeat and not *all* of the thousands of miles of US coast is inappropriate for a refinery. We don't Need the California or Miami tourist beaches, do we? Our coastline is *not* pristine, to say the least.
So how much does gasoline have to go up to before it's worthwhile to build a refinery and make a markup out of processing gazillions of barrels of crude? I don't buy that it's impossible, I think it's simply a matter of maintaining industry profitability vs. American security.
Why build another, more reliable cookie factory if you can sell every one you make and your markup keeps going up? And every time you have a breakdown on the conveyor belt, you make even more $ ?

That's been my own thinking as of late. It seems as obvious as anything, and I'm not prone to being a conspiracy nut.

-Bill

Simply by lowering your overall cost for fuel over a period of time.  It will not lower the price at the pump.

Example:
If you keep driving and paying the same amount per week,
but you buy a car that get's 33% better fuel mileage (eg. 33mpg to 44mpg) then you consume 25% less fuel in a week and pay 25% less every week for fuel.

Something to ponder, from a wire story today (Canton (OH) Repository)-
Either there's truth to it, or not:

-----------------------------

SINGAPORE (AP) — Crude oil futures opened the week lower as fears about refinery breakdowns eased after the weekend passed without reports of new refinery problems.
(snip)

Gasoline fell nearly two cents to $1.9858 a gallon while heating oil lost almost a cent at $1.8965.
(snip)

Analysts said the market had been on edge leading up to the weekend on fears that more refinery breakdowns would occur at a time when plants are already running at near-maximized levels, leaving little room for disruption.

“The market is seeing that there weren’t any outages over the weekend and so they’re more relaxed about the outlook, as compared to ahead of the weekend when a lot of people bought just in case there were refinery problems,” said commodity strategist David Thurtell at the Commonwealth Bank of Australia in Sydney.

-Bill

Last Saturday regular was $2.47 a gallon at one of the cheapest stations AM/PM, in the Eugene/Springfield area. Same day along the coast, (Reedsport, Coos Bay) $2.75 for regular and over $3.00 per gallon for premium.

To some extent, it is supply and demand. China and India are stretching the demand. Those of us who have used our passports have paid higher prices in Europe for fuel years ago.

Price differences can be caused by transportation cost and or blending requirements due to environmental laws. The LA basin, Southern California has some of the strictest air polution requirements and demands special blends of fuels. Having dealt with the South Coast Air Quality Management District for ten years, I can understand some of the cost of producing gasoline and diesel fuels.

I participated in the construction and start-up of two large hydrogen plants in the LA Basin. Can't build a hydrogen plant for an oil refinery for less than 100 million. All this just to strip the sulfur from the oil and the refineries have to invest in new processes to please environmental regulations. The Air Quality Management District has the staffing to develope/write standards which industry must abide by. As a small example, the calibration gasses which we used in our Continuious Emission Monitoring equipment cost at least three times the normal pricing for calibration gas due the special certificate of analysis required by the AQMD.

Those waiting for the hydrogen economy, don't hold your breath too long it isn't healthy. Large scale manufacturing of hydogen in today's world is in a SMR. That is a steam, methane reformer; and where does methane come from? As oil prices increase so does natural gas! There is no free lunch.

The only country where I see a chance is Iceland. They have geothermal energy to produce steam, to run turbines, to product electricity, to product hydrogen from electrolysis of water.

Other options; how about good old mass transit? I can remember where the family car sat in the garage and was used just to go to church. Dad took the bus to work. Mom and the kids took the bus to go shopping. Last time work meant travel to the Netherlands, lots of bicycles everywhere, could help with the obesity issue here in the states.

At any rate, it is going to interesting........

Hoopie,

Hey man back in the Late Seventies, the Alaskan Pipeline was gona save the Day, whose day did it save..? All these Ocean Going drilling Platforms Cost Major Dollars to operate and Service. There were plans and Designs put into place years ago that had some foresight to them But, let's face it, Look what's being Built for use, I'm in traffic all day long, Soccor Moms in Hummers,  Cadillac Escaliads, Gigantic pickups for Sport and leisure, All Nice Toys..But No real Cost effectiveness, No one is going to give up anything that interfears with Personal Convience.

I was getting a Coffee at convience store on Rt 30 it's one of those Large Sheetz and while walking back to my truck a few cage drivers were conversing i over heard them talking about the price and One woman Blurted out I don't care My husband will Pay for it...

I thought What a Guy... She was Fueling her Big SUV...

So Much overkill and waste in Transportation.

This might have something to do with it.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8646744/

"In the real world, most of what you pay at the pump is a direct result of state and federal taxes".

_____________________

Motorists now pay an average of 44 cents per gallon in federal, state and local gas taxes, according to the American Petroleum Institute.

Nationwide, the gas tax generated $34.6 billion for state and local governments in 2004 — about 3.5% of all tax collections, according to the Census Bureau. The federal government gave states an additional $30 billion for transportation projects, mostly from the 18.4-cent-per-gallon federal gas tax.

Overall, gas tax collections cover about half of the $120 billion state and local governments spend annually on roads.

Gas tax collections have grown modestly compared with income, sales and property tax collections. Gas tax collections have risen an average of 3% a year in the past decade.

Stop confusing us with facts. Is the tax portion of what we pay at the pump constant or is it a percentage of the total figure?

Gas hit $2.79 / gal for 87 oct... here in E. Lansing. THis is for middle of the
road station...not one of the"high price" places... I suppose you might find
87 oct for $2.69 / gal somewhere in Lansing but the time spent to find the
station would consume the savings!

So...parked the cars....pulled out the bike and peddling to work...
only 2 miles...but I sure don't wanna do that in the snow!
73 steve
8tow, using the alternative vehicle for awhile  :o

"Is the tax portion of what we pay at the pump constant or is it a percentage of the total figure?"

____________

Taxes on gasoline, and how they are assessed, vary from state to state. Here in Pennsylvania gas taxes work like this:

According to the Pennsylvania Constitution, the Liquid Fuels Tax, more commonly known as the gas tax, must be spent on highway related activities such as construction, maintenance, and safety.  The state supplements the proceeds of the gas tax with revenue from vehicle and drivers license fees.  Together, with additional help from the federal government, they comprise almost all of the money spent by state government on highways.

Pennsylvania applies several types of taxes on fuels, each with a different rate and different base.  The basic liquid fuels and fuels use tax is the original gas tax in Pennsylvania and is used in every other state.  It uses the traditional cents-per-gallon approach.  The current rate is 12¢ per gallon.  In addition, Pennsylvania assesses an Oil Franchise Tax based on the wholesale price of gasoline.  The Oil Franchise Tax rate is set annually based on the average wholesale price of gasoline for the 12-month period ending the previous September.  The minimum rate is 13.9¢ per gallon.  For 2004 the rate was 14.2¢.  In addition, state government levies taxes on aviation fuels, alternative fuels, and fuel used by motor carriers.

The current combined tax rate is 26.2¢ per gallon (12¢ liquid fuels tax + 14.2¢ Oil Franchise tax).   And beginning in January 2005, the tax rate jumped to 30¢ per gallon.  The source of the increase is a 3.8¢ per gallon increase in the Oil Franchise Tax due to the significant increase in the wholesale price of gasoline.  The table below illustrates the recent history of the tax rate. 

Calendar Year    Liquid FuelsTax    Oil Franchise Tax    Total Tax

2005                          12¢                 8.0¢                    30.0¢
2004                          12¢               14.2¢                    26.2¢
2003                          12¢               13.9¢                    25.9¢
2002                          12¢               14.6¢                    26.6¢
2001                          12¢               14.0¢                    26.0¢
2000                          12¢               13.9¢                    25.9¢

Pennsylvania’s 26.2¢ per gallon rate for 2004 was the 5th highest in the nation as of January 1, 2004.  If the rates for other states remain constant, Pennsylvania’s rate of 30¢ will be the 2nd  highest in the nation in 2005, trailing only Rhode Island’s 31¢.

In the most recently completed fiscal year, various taxes on liquid fuels combined to yield $1.1 billion. This represents over half of all receipts used for highway transportation.  Driver and vehicle license fees account for most of the remainder of funding.

Taxes normally paid at the pump – the Liquid Fuels and Fuels Use, and Oil Franchise Taxes – generated the vast majority of those funds (97%).  Overall growth rates in gas tax receipts have been relatively low.  For example, over the past 5 years receipts increased 5.7%, barely more than half the rate of inflation.  In the previous 10 years, the increase was only 13.3% compared to a 24.2% inflation rate.  Obviously, a 3.8¢ increase for 2005 will have at least a short-term impact on the trends.

                                Rate of Growth: All Liquid Fuels Taxes 

Liquid Fuels Taxes                         Inflation
1-Year Growth       0.7%                   2.3%
5-Year Growth       5.7%                 10.4%
10-Year Growth   13.3%                 24.2%

The overriding reason for slow growth is a moderate increase in the number of miles driven offset by greater fuel efficiency.  In a sense, funding for highways in Pennsylvania and other states has been a victim of the success of a national policy that’s resulted in a steady increase in the fuel efficiency of cars over the past 30 years.  The result?  Limited growth in the tax base.

Historically, gas tax yields have been relatively steady but at a growth rate lower than inflation.  The result has been the growing difficulty of funding transportation needs over the past several years, particularly with the current uncertainty of federal funding.  However, the  increase in the Oil Franchise Tax rate that took effect on January 1, 2005 likely will provide some level of fiscal relief to the highway budget. 

Thanks for the clarification. I feel like I just copied someone's homework. So If I understand this, the price at the pump will go even higher as the state adjusts it's rated portion of the fuel tax at the fiscal year's end. Also, in terms of real dollars the tax is actually currently less than it was in years past. Great news. Time to go out now and buy an SUV to put in the backyard to store radio stuff. First, will check the air in the tires and advance the ignition timing a little.

Gas prices around the world:

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/price.html

Don't worry.  It's going to be all right.   Congress took care of it.  They are watching out for our interests, you know.  They just extended daylight shifting time by four weeks!  That'll have gas prices back down below $2.00/gal before you can blink an eye.

VENEZUELA     CARACAS     $0.14
Must be some really good stuff.  Maybe made from crushed escaped Nazi party leader bones instead of dinosaur parts.

Massachusetts 23.5 23.5 Inc. 2.5 cpg UST Tax      Gee. It woulda been only  $2.30 a gallon today. 

;D ;D ;D

Hi All:

I am started to REALLY get worried about these gas prices. I see the day in the far future where many of us have to sell our houses and radios to pay for gas. This would allow the rich to get richer and the middle class turn into the poor.

I have ALWAYS wanted an electric vehicle...easier to make, cleaner and cheaper to drive. To make sure the G'ment is "for us", read about how Ford is recalling all their electric vehicles and will CRUSH them:

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=798

http://www.rinkadinkproductions.com/newslinks.html

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/20/2003/343

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/09/04/woe_to_ev1/print.html

Also manufacturers can only make a low emission vehicle as long as it it PETROLIUM based.

Will I will still drive my Corolla until I cannot afford it anymore. Guess being frugal does not pay.

73,
Dan W1DAN

Shades of the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" rears it ugly head once again.

Heavens to Betsy, the sky is falling, the rich are eating up the poor.

The evil capitalist oilmen from Texas have conspired with the Osama and the Detroit auto empire to collect and crush all electric vehicles.

It’s a plot I tell you, can't you see, they are after us, run for the hills!  :o

They have:

Raised gas prices without reason

Destroyed oil refineries in the name of profit

Collected and crushed all electric vehicles

Conspired with the automotive companies to design, develop and addict the American public to large gas guzzling SUVs

Engaged in price fixing to punish those nasty "Blue States"

Made all of us wear polyester leisure suits (made of petrol-chemicals don't you know)


Please...if you are going to piss and moan, at least piss and moan about something worthwhile.
I feel like I am at a PMS convention here.  ;D

For example, why not discuss the recent Supreme Court decision on eminent domain?
Now that’s something that affects each and every one of us and our Constitutional rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I'll gladly pay $10 per gallon gas prices if the goverment protects my property rights and keeps it hands out of my pocket.

huh, I don't see any right wing plot in dans post,, but I do wonder
why not let the people buy ther old leased electric vehicles. sure kill
the product line if its not profitable. but a few folks seem pretty happy
with the product so let em keep em. wish I'd see one.
 
there was a guy back in mass during the 79 crunch who electrified
his ford ranger. pretty nice project, though I'm sure it wasn't as
good as the factory ones. I wouldn't mind one of them out in AZ with
a large solar panel on the house roof to charge.

Oh Bruce, start a thread on eminent domain, I'll rant on that one!
that has got to go, I hope that supreme court judge looses his
property!!

Ok, see Black Robed Gangsters

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=5343.msg40423#msg40423

It doesn't take a genius to understand that a rapid rise in fuel rates will hurt those that can least afford it and eventually be reflected in higher consumer prices for almost everything.  I suspect that the consumer basket of goods would show greater inflation than we are seeing if it weren't for the general downward pressure on consumer prices that comes with escalating Chinese sourcing.  I noticed that some air freight is seeing fuel surcharges of over 50 cents a kilo chargeable which means that air freighted consumer goods the size of say a shoe box have an extra dollar in landing costs.  Higher prices and less money to spend for lower income people could mean a retail slowdown.  I know an older person who has had XOM stock for a long time and the oil companies are making out just fine. 


The well established reason for higher fuel prices is the fact that I recently purchased a vehicle with a V-8.   Bet we don't see the cadaverlac too soon!

Ed

It's good to know that someone enjoys getting robbed. Too bad the rest of us have to get robbed as well.
 

How Those Big Bucks End Up in Big Oil's PocketsBy Steven Mufson The Washington PostSunday, August 7, 2005

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/05/AR2005080501997_pf.html

Does anyone know what the DOE function is these days.

Another of retired at work welfare gang.
I would think these guys should be coming up with a new approach

It can't be a full time job monitoring nuke tests these days. 

"Does anyone know what the DOE function is these days"

______________

Act as the propaganda arm of oil companies?

oh so that is why the stupid hydrogen idea

Ahh...I love this suggestion!!  Perhaps it might be cheaper than building a garage or a storage shed for the boatanchor stuff! 
There certainly seems to be a great deal of concern and accompanying POLITICAL PONTIFICATION on this board regarding this subject!  Basically, I think everyone agrees that high gas prices suck........regardless of the cause.  What we really should be concerned about is how this cost factor might disrupt the truly important activities in our lives....like going to hamfests!!  Well,  we have been car pooling for that purpose for years....so business as usual.   ;D

I haven't found $3.11 here in Colchester. Found $2.63 for regular, 2.73 for midgrade and diesel and 2.83 for premium. That's high enough....  But no $3.11.  Some gas jockey must have been screwing around in an effort to make news.

".... so business as usual"

_______________

Go back to sleep, Jack :)

 Lucky for me I can walk to my job. My wife on the other hand has to drive to her job. She figures it will be another  $30-$40 extra per month. That makes a difference in this house. School starts in 2 weeks and I have to cough up 245 clams for the bus passes for my kids  this week. They are talking about higher fares that they will have to pass on when the fuel prices increase.  >:(  (piss&moan mode off)


 $2.60 a gallon today. $2.54 yesterday.

Hi:

This reply is kinda for Bruce, but anyone please chime in:

Yes I tend to be a defeatist. Yes I tend to think the sky is falling.

But why would an auto manufacturer recall all their fully electic vehicles when most of the leasees are begging to keep them?

Why is there a waiting line for the Prius?

I do feel that the fully electric competition is pushed out of operation, not by demand, but by petroleum based interests. Where did Solectra go?

I also wonder why there are not more refineries. Would a limited supply through these refineres cause higher prices?????

I think it is all Baxter's fault!

Anyway, it was good to hear ya on 75 AM this weekend.

This is a good thread.

73
Dan
W1DAN

Hi Dan,

First, please take my earlier comments as tongue in cheek, you are a fine fellow and I did not mean to imply otherwise.

Now, onto the auto business, which I can speak to with some insight as it has been my profession for the last 20 years.

The first thing you must understand is that the auto manufacturers are scared to death of product liability.
I would wager that the largest cost, after employee salary and benefits, is warranty and product safety issues.
Right now Ford may have to recall up to 14 million vehicles due to an electrical defect.
Every mistake has colossal implications.

Why do the manufacturers want to crush the EVs?
Its simple, most people could not afford to buy them outright, so they were leased and the lease is up.
Ford and GM has deep pockets and do not want the liability of someone hurting, killing, maiming, burning another person with an EV.
People sue, it’s a fact, and they first target those with the deep pockets.
A manufacturer can be sued, 5, 10, 15 even 20 years after a product is built.
Do you want to be liable for the first generation of EVs 20 years from now?

Let's face it, Ford, GM and other manufacturers are in business to make money.
They will sell only products will allow a favorable ROI, unless forced otherwise.
It is not a conspiracy, it is common business practice.

If the demand is there, and a profit can be made, you can bet that the auto manufacturers will make it.
I am sure that as the technology does progress, you will see more and more EVs available and in service.

It’s not a conspiracy, its just business.

Hi Bruce:

No harm taken at all...this is a good chat, and I appreciate your professional experience.

A friend at work was explaining the dynamics of the stock market gas futures and how the US oil reserves are well stocked right now.

Here is an idea that I would like to do sometime...modify a Prius to run substantially on the electric motor instead of the approximate 50/50 gas/electric:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/index.html

I just wish that fully electric vehilces were available.

Have a good weekend.

73
Dan
W1DAN

Frank is right.  There is a $3.11/gal. in my dumb town.  The price was at a Sunoco.  $3.11 for full serve premium. Why I didn't see it before, who knows. Ouch. 

     That's exactly what some Prius owners are doing. The people who have a short commute can run pretty much without lighting the gasoline engine. It depends on the cost of recharging at home. Also if heat is needed, the best source is wasted heat from the gas powerplant.

     Earl Ferguson, W0SEV has a Prius and we all got the grand tour early this spring after he drove it out from Colorado. Great car.

As far as fully electric vehicles: where is the electricity going to come from and what will it cost? If the recharge is cheap then you are all set.

That’s really the point Dave; you hit it right on the head.

Most of the electrical power, or at least a good percentage, does not come from environmentally friendly generation. Aside from the tailpipe emissions, where is the real benefit to the environment. You still have to have some “evil” corporation burn coal to generate the power to make that electric to recharge your car’s batteries.

I would be most curious to see what the true cost per mile is, both in dollars and in power plant emissions, for the electro-cars. I’d wager that it has a worse impact than our current gasoline vehicles. Anyone have any info on this?

This is exactly why I get a kick out of the granola set self-righteously cruising around in their electro-mobiles with the “Earth - Love Thy Mother” stickers on the rear bumper. They just have no idea.

The main reason I think electro-cars should be developed is to decrease our reliance on oil from the Middle East. The sooner we get untangled from that rat’s nest the better.
Both of our Founding Fathers Washington and Jefferson warned us to “beware of foreign entanglements”.

I just don’t want to see Ahab the Arab get any more of our petrol dollars so they can then fund terrorists to attack this country.

Nothing comes free. Electro-cars are not a complete answer to the devestating impact of millions of gas burning cars. They may be beneficial in certain areas of high congenstion, like urban areas, where thousands upon thousands of gas burning cars in one small congested area may be having a detrimental impact on the local environment and health, But overall, electro- cars still pollute.


Well, they may be on the right track.


What are you trying to put Bush, Cheney and Halliburton and their Saudi oil pals out of business ?? Perish the thought...

News flash John..... I am a Patriot, not a partisan.

That's all well and good Bruce. But in this world money talks loudest.

Yup, That $3.11 is the highest price on the way to the beach. My Son is keeping track.
Hauling a big battery around sounds foolish. They are big bucks and full of nasty stuff. A properly designed fuel cell running on a common fuel like natural gas is clean and light. There is plenty of frozen gas off the coast or it could be synthesized. Electric is too inefficient looking at the whole picture.
When people stop buying cars things will change and not until.
Cars seem to be working well on 10% corn mash how about upping it to 20%
A windfall profit tax on the gas Co. sounds great to me. Free market is one thing antitrust is another.

Modifying vehicles is one of the reasons auto companies are worried about product liability.  Stupid juriors would look past the modifications and hold the car company liable for any major damage, probably saying they should have been built to prevent modifications..

Speaking of batteries, does anyone know what kind of batteries these thing have in them?  It seems as if a vehicle containing several was involved in a major accident, the collision migh crack open the case of one or more of the batteries.  Could that not be a real hazard?  I know the cars run on 48 volts and rescue squads are taking courses to know where to cut the metal and where not to cut.  They are saying the elecrics are much more dangerous that the vehicles we drive now for the member of the rescue people.

Where are the environmentlists when you need them?

And the station across the street wanted a left gonad...........

My other hobby is flying radio contolled, electric powered model airplanes. Within the past 5 years there have great strides in both electric motor and battery technology to the point where electric powered aircraft are now surpassing the perfomance of similar sized gas powered planes. (flight times and horsepower) A combination of weight reduction, high performance brushless motors and high discharge rate Lithium ion batteries are making this possible. Apparently this new technology is making it's way into experimental autos as mentioned in the CNN article. Using solar panels and wind for charging is the key to fossil fuel independance. I big forward jump in solar panel technology would sure help the situation.


"Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said."

I wonder if it's possible to charge batteries with rf energy.  There's plenty of it floating around.

Cool on the electric RC planes, Glenn. Didn't know they were doing that.

As for the $12,000 modification to the car...  It's always the same thing: "I can buy a lot of gas for that much money".  ie, $12,000 at $2.50 per gallon = 4,800 gallons. At 20 mpg, that's 96,000 miles that a car has to drive just to break even. A lot more if it is already an economy car getting 25 mph++.

Too bad.  It reminds me of the electric wind mill technology. I checked it out once - using power and also selling the excess back - it would take 5-8+ years to break even, assuming the generator, batteries, drives, etc didn't break down. That's buying everything new and not being creative. But hams could do better, I'm sure... ;D

Economics is a bitch and the great equalizer, but that's always the way it is in the beginning of good technology.

T

Hi Tom;

Yep, $12,000 doesn't make sense but a do-it-yourself approach certainly would be way less than that, in true ham homebrew style... Battery prices need to come down...

Did anyone mention a steam powered vehicle?  :D :D

Only problem I have with the electrics is that they are too quiet. I grew up with model  aircraft flying . For a large part of my life I was into gas powered control line, U control. We (me and  my friends)  did some crazy stuff with that including our famouse "camera plane". A friend of mine has a picture of me flying two control line planes at once on the beach while in the water. We even taught a couple girls we knew how to fly that day. I bult tons of planes and still have a few sitting in the attic.  I got into gas powered RC. later on. These days  I've been inactive in the hobby and do  most of my flying on computer flight sim.

The new electrics are pretty amazing and  you're right, the performance is incredible and in all seriousness I am interested in building one  one day. But I am still addicted to the scream of a gas engine, the smell of glow fuel (alcohol + nitro) and that thick film of unburned castor  +  synthetic oil that sprays out of the exhaust ports and literally covers the whole damned plane.

Yes! nice and quiet!.. one of the reasons I didn't want to fly gas planes was that god awful noise.. sounds like a swarm of giant bees  :o Control line? that always amazed me how they didn't get dizzy and fall down after going around in a circle for 5 mins.. ;D



You should try them John... amazing stuff... you won't miss those slimers one bit, and you can throw away your chicken stick!  ;D ;D ;D

Hey, let me ask you Easties something...
With the high price of heating oil there, why don't more folks use electric heat or heat pumps? They ought to work great in coastal areas south of, say, New England where extended single-digit or colde rtemps aren't all that frequent or prolonged.

I'm also thinking of the geothermal heat pumps using buried pipes that use the earth as a heat sink in the summer and a heat source in the winter.

I had a heat pump in an apartment in the Washington DC area.  It worked fine, and heating wasn't too expensive at $0.06 per KWH.  It had an electric heater for quick heat if needed.  I had no complaints.

I'd like to strap one of these babies into an airplane and learn how to fly it at 200+mph.
http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/model-jet-engine.html

An amateur pilot I know is attaching a commercial jet engine to a glider. I should check up on his progress.

Gas prices in the DC suburbs of Virginia peaked just below $3/gallon last week: $2.799/reg, $2.899 mid, $2.999/high, then they dropped about 5 cents by Friday.

Another 2006 Darwin Award candidate?

..

Darwin candidate - I really don't know.  He does stunt flying in a cool little biplane, and he has a glider that can carry him and another person.  He says he's going to put the jet engine onto the glider.  I guess it'll be fast...

1 ton of coal has the same energy as 150 gals of heating oil.

Cost of 150 gals X $2.15/gal = $322.50

1 ton  of coal Costs $50-60

http://www.meyermfg.com/woodchuck.html

All money spent on coal stays in the US, Same is true mostly for natural gas as well (Canada sells natural gas to us mainly because we don't have enough pipelines) There are shut in gas wells in the US because all the pipelines to the NE are full and there is no pipeline in the north going east.

What are 8.1 million people heating their house with oil for?(6.3 million in the NE).

Note a KWH contains 3412 BTU, you need to burn or input 10,280 BTU at the power plant to make it. No electricity in this country should be generated by anything except nuclear power. We have loads and loads of uranium. I have a friend who has found millions of tons of it. Once again all the money and jobs stay here.

Oil resevers of Saudi Arabia 280 billion BO
US oil resevers in oil shale 3000 billion BO

Oil shale will be economic when the price of oil gets a little higher than it was in 1981 in real dollars. It's not there yet. Yes, that's right, you were paying more for oil and gasoline in 1981 in real dollars than you are now. Then all the jobs and money can stay here.

73 Marty WB2RJR

Thanks Marty for the information. Please post more often.

Mom!! Marty's causing trouble again!! 

Just try and burn that stuff on a large scale and the environmentalists will be screaming up a storm. They'll fight tooth and nail to disallow the mining of coal because they might say an endangered worm or slug inhabits the area.

Good info Marty, thanks.

We already burn coal on a large scale in power plants, and fairly cleanly, too, with modern pollution controls. But let me tell you, you do *not* want your neighbor burning soft coal in their home, if that's what you mean by large scale...It's legal to do so in many areas around here and I once had a neighbor that heated with coal. I used to pick up chunks of coal that fell off of nearby trains and toss them into my stove, too.
The smoke will gag you. Horrid. Residential use of coal for heating is not a good idea!

Like others have said, it's time to bring back the nuke industry and make a decision as to where to dispose of the waste. Then do it. This has gone on too long now.

We can put the waste on a C141 and send it to our friends in the desert. 

That may have been the case as far as the electric toy airplanes that were available in your typical local gas plane hobby shop back in 95. There was much resistance (pardon the pun) to the higher performance electrics by the owners of hobby shops back then, even to the point of promoting false information about electrics, I witnessed this first hand on more than one occasion. Fact is, even without a brushless motor and fancy Lithium cell, a properly configured electric plane, with a geared brushed motor can perform just like a gas plane. But don't take my word for it... Take a drive upstate New York in Sept and check ot the annual N.E.A.T. fair (Northeast Electric Aircraft Technology fair) run by a club from Long Island (Silent Electric Flyers of Long Island). This is a three day event and the largest gathering of electric flyers in the country. You'll see first hand, high performance sport planes, scale warbirds, commercial planes and sailplanes all powered by electric motors. It is quite an eyeful to see a 10ft wingspan, scale B-17 bomber flying low and slow across the field (powered by four standard brushed electric motors running on good old nicad cells)

The club I belong to (Bergen County Silent Flyers) sponsors technical seminars that run throughout the course of the three day event.

Here's a link to the website of the fair....

http://www.neatfair.org/

No,  I think most scientists are talking about the negative effect on HUMAN lives resulting from the widespread mining and usage of coal and fossil fuels.  I largely agree with them. I don't think additional widespread burning of coal is the best of ideas inn terms of health and sustainability. Sooner or later you  gotta pay for  what you do today.

Very interesting... Have you ever seen control line combat? where two guys are flying in the same circle? ducking under and over each other!! man that's wild!!



 

The last time I bought coal of any quality it was $150 a ton. It does make nice heat.
I'm in favor of nuke power myself. we have a nice facility in Nevada for the waste.

Yes, that darn republican administration:
*     They keep us from drilling for oil on our own land and from constructing more refineries and even go to court to assure oil drilling leases along CA are not extended.
*     They have single handedly built up the Chinese economy as a tool to increase the demand and force the prices of gasoline in states that didn't support them in the presidential election.
*     They continue to jack up the oil prices as a pre election ploy to keep all the folks who would vote for the other side at home.
*     They are going to cut off your welfare check.
*     They endanger your social security entitlement.
*     They will cause the super volcano to erupt by cutting taxes again.

-ap

Yep,  ya gotta love em.

yep,  I've even seen more that 2 flying at the same time in the same circle. A lot of the guys use  pressurized tanks on those combat planes. The tank is basically a rubber bladder filled with gas (glow fuel) to manntain an even pressure regardless of the amount of gas on board or the attitude of the aircraft.

I flew mostly control line stunt. I have also been know to fly 2 planes at  once.
 

Art, You forgot to mention they're creating hurricanes too and aiming them at the oil drilling rigs in the gulf.

"Art, You forgot to mention they're creating hurricanes too and aiming them at the oil drilling rigs in the gulf."

Yep, my sarcasm was raging a little out of control. It is difficult to grant credibility when bias is so obvious in either direction.

The economy. . . . 5% unemployment (however you measure it) is pretty darn good, I am making money in the stock market, GDP is up, tax revenues are *increasing* in the face of tax cuts (for a reference on this concept google Keynes, it hasn't changed), people are being paid for their contributions to society and industry.
So, other than the price of oil (which is exacerbated by our inability to use our own resources and increase refining capacity . . .) what's the problem with the economy?

I really wish the Dems would come up with a strong leader that would clean house, stand on a platform, and kick some ass, rather than object and present problems without solutions.

5% unemployment however you measure it ?? How is that possible ?  Unemploment rates are laregly based on the number of people registered for and receiving unemployment benefits at any given time.  Beyond that it  is not nessesarily  a good barometer for the overall health of the economy.  It says little  or nothing about the quality of the jobs that are available to Americans nor does it address wages, costs of living, health benefits, etc. The reality is that under Bush the rate of job growth is not competing with population growth and the need for jobs. Furthermore, as companies outsource work to overseas employers and/or scale back their work forcethere are few public insights into what kinds of jobs are being made available. Are they compatable with regards to wages, benefits, quality working conditions etc. A person who's job as  a professional  engineer being replaced  by a job cooking  frankfurters at McDonalds would not be saying much for healthy quality job growth.

Furthermore gas prices don;t operate  in a bubble. When Americans have to pay more and more at the pumps they have less and less available for  other things.  Sure, in parts of Europe people pay more for gas  than they do here. But also a larger part of what they pay for gas goes into government taxes which, at least theoretically, comes back to them in the form of government services, etc.  When we pay > 3.00 for gas here little if any of that amount (theoretically)  comes back..

And wtth regards to irresponsible spending, borrowing money and creating a massive deficit this administration is analogous to a very materialistic girlfriend borrowing her rich boyfriends credit card and then heading to Sak's 5th Avenue. for the day.  Sooner or later that credit card is gonna come back to haunt us.

Of course Bush and/or republicans in general can;t be entirely blamed for economic failures. The democrats have traditionally displayed their ineptness  over and  over  again.  A robust democratic candidate with a real and viable plan would probably  be good for all of us. But I don;t expect  to see  such a candidate anytime soon.

Gee Art I  figured you would be still blaming Clinton......oh well after 5 years of something much worse.....

Republicraps have made the dems look conservative. Now that has taken some doing and they still seem to hold on to the blind faith followers.

Us poor boys down here in  reality land are getting worried about our senior years and even more our kids.

Glad the select few at the top still have it all under control.

 :oJust hit $3.11 / gal for 87 oct here in Lansing MI....thanks goodness I can
ride a bike....
dit dit dit dah
73 steve

As for who's causing the hurricanes?  It's clear that there's some sorta connection between them and the Iranians.  Guess we better hurry up and expand the quagmire into that country, too, before another storm hits.  It's a slam dunk that we'll find evidence to prove this soon's we kill enough people.

BTW... I understand that Berthoud, CO, Beachwood NJ, and Enfield, CT are ideal places to store nu-ku-lar waste.  It's clear that they've solved all the problems associated with storing very toxic materials for longer than civilization's been around (at least as we know it.)


"Peace is at hand."

73,

Paul


The above text is pure satire and sarcasm except for the "73"

Paul,
Years ago they wanted to build a low level dump a couple miles south but the yuppies went crazy. Good thing. Right in the middle of corn country used as feed.The site in nevada is out in the middle of the wide open desert. Didn't they dig the stuff out of the ground out there anyway??

CNN is talking $4 soon so stock up.

Don't worry we have no inflation big Al writing a mombo jumbo speach to assure us everything is under control.
"pay no attention to the guy behind the curtin"

"The site in nevada is out in the middle of the wide open desert."

Totally so...and probably stable enough to withstand any "normal" tectonic plate movement.  At least for the next few centuries.  But as I understand it, we're talking tens of thousands of years.  These kinds of numbers give me pause.  There's no way we can predict what'll be there then.  We've got enough of the stuff now to be a major worry.  It would seem prudent to have this problem of disposing of the waste (that seems intractable today) solved before we start increasing how much we make.  Obviously, there will be no problem in our lifetimes, or even the lifetimes of our children and our children's children.  But what abou the year 5000 (assuming we actually last that long?), or even 10000?

For example, what if whoever built the pyramids built them to store a very dangerous substance.  Would the original archeoligists who explored them known enough not to mess with them?  Had there been warning signs, would we have interpreted them correctly?  And this example is "only" after 5000 years.

Or is it even reasonable to worry about our descendants so far in the future?

Just food for thought.

I didn't think it was Nevada, I thought it was the Yucca Mountains in New Mexico.

"Of course Bush and/or republicans in general can;t be entirely blamed for economic failures. The democrats have traditionally displayed their ineptness  over and  over  again.  A robust democratic candidate with a real and viable plan would probably  be good for all of us. But I don;t expect  to see  such a candidate anytime soon."

You are right John. That's the point I was making.
When we P&M gas is too expensive but insist we save the spotted dodo by not drilling on our own turf and the albino suburbinite nimby bitching about refineries, the hypocricy is overwhelming. This situation  is pretty much independent of the politico de jour. Bringing in the economy, quality of jobs, and other important but peripheral issues just fogs the glass . . . great discussion points though.

We either become more independent from our foriegn sources of fuel or accept external control over a major element of our day to day life.
Keynes was correct even here . . . $3++/gal will motivate us to cut back on consumption and become more creative in our processes and products. The innovation will not occur unless there is pain.

Today prices went up 30 to 60 cents!
The station around the corner got gas Friday. The price has gone up 40 cents since. Where the heck are the beltway bandits.

Sheeeeesh we don't even import any of our oil from the Gulf of Mexico region and our gas prices took a hit today.$1.199 a liter for self serve regular.That's $5.44 per Imperial gallon,about $4.35 for a US gallon.I see parts of Alabama around Atlanta had hit $6.00 a gallon.That is just plain insane.

Good points . . . the US imports in the vicinity of 20% of our oil from the middle east yet every time there is instability gas goes up way out of proportion. We all know there are gas station owners who take advantage of the situation disproportionately but they get what's coming to them . . . while driving back from Ft. Collins I needed gas and pulled into a small town in IN . . . $2.79/gal . . . in a snapshot in time when $2.55 was expected . . . I turned around and ran on the last 1/4 until I got to Indy and $2.48/gal gas . . . I have no doubt those same ops are charging $3/gal right now . . .

There will always be opportunists and I have mixed feelings about them . . . it's their gas until and unless I buy it . . .

What's happening is speculators are seriously impacting oil futures. The mechanism that is supposed to moderate the price to consumers is not working exactly as designed . . .

-ap

30M gallons (and more every minute)  of gasoline has been taken off the market because of the hurricane and our demand remains the same . . . and we are surprised the price is going up??? ECON-101 . . .

This falls directly on the heads of the tree huggers, nimbys, and liberal twits. We were at 95% capacity utilization in refining and 99% consumption of imported oil. . . . in good times, in a growing economy. An interruption in the flow is *guaranteed* to cause price increases. A disaster is *guaranteed* to bring huge jumps.

We now have Billery calling for congressional investigation of price gouging by gas station owners.
Sen. Nelson calling for price freezes, alcohol mixed fuels, and hybrids. This is the same fine legislator that has filibustered against oil drilling in the gulf. He wants to make sure no one is able to drill for oil going forward.
Sen Schumer warns this will lead to more drilling in the gulf.
Sen Blumenthal blaming the current administration because of the 2001 tax cuts.

35 years of energy production distruption . . . nuclear, oil drilling, gasoline refining . . . and we are surprised at the cost of gas at the pumps???

IMO I have never seen such an immediate and impressive display of ignorance.

-ap

I never thought I'd think back fondly on $2.65 gallon gas.   :P

In Binghamton, NY area this morning, 87 octane anywhere from $2.899 (a Hess station in Binghamton) to $3.159 (a Citgo station in Endicott).  The  Kwik Fill in Johnson City, usually one of the cheapest places for gas in the area, was $2.959 this morning.   

The local Citgo here in Colchester, CT changed the price from $2.74 from yesterday evening to $2.79 at 7AM this morning after a fuel delivery.  I went into town again later in the AM to pick up some groceries and watched the attendant jack the price up another $0.20 to $2.99 though no fuel delivery. One has to wonder. The Mobil Station further up is at $3.09 yet another Mobil is still sitting at $2.77.

I've never understood the point of congressional investigations especially with something such as this.  Is an investigation really gonna fix this problem? I doubt it.  I think it's fair to say most of us already know the answer to the problem. 

"I've never understood the point of congressional investigations especially with something such as this.  Is an investigation really gonna fix this problem? I doubt it.  I think it's fair to say most of us already know the answer to the problem. "

. . . what you have noticed is a party that is not interested in solutions . . . only objections and opposition to the current administration . . . no ageda otherwise and willing to use any tragedy to advance their position . . . anything rather than do the actual work of a party . . . that is, come up with their own platform and sell the positive aspects of it to a public that would be very willing to listen.

We know the answer to this problem in the future. The solution to  now is time and conservation to hold out until the fuel supply is restored. Hopefully we will be smarter going forward . . . if not, the lessons of history become the lessons of the future.

New Cumberland, PA $3.209 at 8AM and counting . . .


-ap

New day and a new price. $1.289 per liter here today. :'(  That's $5.85 per Imperial gallon or $4.68 per US gallon. >:(

Just out of curiosity where does Canada get their fuel from? Is it imported (or some of it) across the border from the states?

I use to buy gas at the Citco station in Colchester then greed set in so I pass by. Best prices in Vernon  Rt 83 usually a dime or so cheaper.

Art said:
You got that right Art. The environmental hoops we have to jump through and the millions of dollars laid out for emissions, and incinerators is outrageous! MACT, SPACC, RACC, and an assortment of other acronyms. Then people wonder why it cost so much for perscription drugs in the US. Let alone liabilities like the VIOXX fiasco, (along with my retirement in the basement).

Mike,
Take a deep breath. Some regulations are necessary and it isn't the tree hugger's fault. It is the poluter's fault. Remember acid rain. I lived in LA for a while and that is the home of poor air quality in the back of the valley.
The party line is blame someone else enough times until the public buys the lie.
Drugs, turn on the TV and you will see why the price is so high. Ask you doctor how many pushers visited him this week. Just ask your doctor.
Why is all this crap on the market and why are there so many problems.
Who is minding the store down in the beltway. We pay taxes to support the agency to keep an eye on the drug pushers. All I see is new reasons to take pills. Where is quality control. Lawyers and insurance company Lawyers sure one thing in mind and it isn't quality.
We can do a better job but who cares when you can cheat. We could burn clean coal electric plants. We have one here in southern Ma.
We will be third world if we don't change soon.   

Frank said:
Frank, ever wonder why all those jobs are going over seas? Companies just don't have the where-with-all to fight environment regs here in the states. So they seek refuge in those third world countries because: 1)Labor is cheap; 2)No EPA to deal with; 3)Governments are corrupt, a greased palm goes a long way!. Now for quality control, all they have to do is demonstrate to the FDA that they are following cGMP's. In other words they have to do what they say the do in a clean environment, (at least while the FDA is there). As an instrument mechanic, it is my duty to make sure all our process instrumentation is within spec as well as environmentally in tolerance. I do about 3 thousand (yes that is correct) inspections a quarter and at least one hour is dedicated to filling out paper work. That's how it works at the big teal hourglass. No ask yourself again why drugs cost so much in the US.

If I recall correctly, there was a saying in the early 1970's that, "We'd have solar energy if oil companies owned the sun."  Perhaps there's some relationship to hurricanes...

And do you consider that a good thing or a bad thing ?? Why shouldn't  coorporations be held to specific standards regarding labor, working conditions, pay wages ? Why shouldn't corporations be held to standards with regards to protecting our environemnt, our air and water from toxic contamination and pollution, our wetlands and forests from over delvelopment, excissive mining,  foresting, etc. ?? The very reason that labor laws were adopted in this country is because prior to the adoption of labor laws workers were routinely exploited, forced to work excessive hours with low wages under often hazardous sweatshop conditions.   Once we trash the environment we loose our quality of life, our health, and once we loose our health we have nothing. Why should we  have to lower our standards to appease corporations so they don't run off into third world countries, trash theirt environments and exploit their labor in the name of maximizing profits. What we need to do is level the playing field by RAISING the standards under which corporations operate in third world nations.



. Now for quality control, all they have to do is demonstrate to the FDA that they are following cGMP's. In other words they have to do what they say the do in a clean environment, (at least while the FDA is there). As an instrument mechanic, it is my duty to make sure all our process instrumentation is within spec as well as environmentally in tolerance. I do about 3 thousand (yes that is correct) inspections a quarter and at least one hour is dedicated to filling out paper work. That's how it works at the big teal hourglass. No ask yourself again why drugs cost so much in the US.

Is that $US or $CAN?

"Why shouldn't corporations be held to standards with regards to protecting our environemnt, our air and water from toxic contamination and pollution, our wetlands and forests from over delvelopment, excissive mining,  foresting, etc. ??"

Because the regulations are extreme and inhibit growth and independence. That's what this gasoline problem is about. There is a balance to be struck and you can't have it all. I was in LA when the air was so thick it seemed like you could cut it . . . 'could barely see the other side of Chavez ravine . . . however, no one is proposing building a refinery or nuke plant in the hollywood hills or glendale . . they are proposing drilling off the coast. . .  highly unlikely to affect the air or sea quality.
IMO - If you support the fine Sen from FL, the NY wench, or the CA bobsy twins, you have no right to bitch about the high cost of gas. You are the cause. (not you specifically John . .  I sense you have more on the ball than to support such . . . stuff.)

-ap

John said:
But this is the rub John, you can't have your cake and eat it too! People bitch that jobs are going over seas. I agree there has to be some regulation but not STRANGULATION[/i]! That's what is happening. Corporations are finding manufacturing climates to their liking and they are going there.

Yep that's all we need. Have our workers take more pay cuts, get rid of whats left of clean air regs,  maybe we can  cut the grunts benefits again . We already took away health care benefits. Maybe we can get rid of those paid vacations next. Keep um on the job so they can compete. 

Actually western Canada exports TO the U.S.A. and eastern canada imports from overseas.It is cheaper to supply a low population area here by tanker than by trans-continental pipeline.At last count Canada imports only about 20% of our crude oil needs.Most of that comes from Venezuela and Nigeria.We get small amounts from the Middle East and the North Sea.I think the big problem is refinery capacity.What really burns me is that there is a refinery less than 50 miles away from me in Halifax and another really larg one in Saint John New Brunswick and the Irving refinery,in Saint John, sends a lot of refined gas to New England for cheaper than we can buy it here for. >:(

I see where you are going here.I quoted $CDN but neverless,ignoring the differance in the value of each currency against each other,a dollar out of my pocket is the same as a dollar out of your's.

Prices in Westerly, RI jumped overnight about 30 cents to 2.99/3.09/3.19 at most stations.  Topped of the 98 Volvo V70XC Cross Country, which likes 91 plus octane at 3.08 per for 93 octane.  Less than a half mile away, the Cumberland Farms was charging 3.59 :o per for 93 octane, and was way out of whack with the norm on  the other grades as well. They usually have the lowest prices in town.  Either they are gouging, or they are the first ones to jump to tomorrows pricing.  Called in a possible gas gouging complaint to the RI Atty Generals Office to check them out.  Needless to say , Cumbys didnt appear to be selling much gas tonight at those prices.

I guess we should be thankful here in New England that gas prices are the biggest thing we have to P&M about of late.  Absouletly imcomprehensible how bad things are down in New Orleans and Mississippi.  There but for the grace of God go we....

As of yesterday afternoon, 9/1, 3 gas stations in my area were without gas, 4th one only had premium at $3.40 a gallon. He figured he would run out by that evening. None of them had any idea when they would get the next delivery of gas. Hess station on Route 18, in East Brunswick, NJ had a line reminiscent of the early 70's. Vendors also walking up and down the line selling coffee and soda.

GAS SHOCK (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2005-09-02-gas-shock-usat_x.htm)[/size]

As of this posting, (1345) prices were on their way down. Lets see how quick the stations and distributors react.

Energy Prices
 
 PETROLEUM ($/bbl)
                            PRICE*  CHANGE  %CHANGE TIME
Nymex Crude          67.65      -1.82    -2.62        13:00
IPE Crude               65.70      -2.02    -2.98        13:28
Dated Brent            65.57      -1.60    -2.39        13:31
WTI Cushing           68.05      -1.42    -2.04        12:21
 
 
 PETROLEUM (¢/gal)
                          PRICE*    CHANGE   %CHANGE TIME
Nymex Heating Oil 208.50     -11.35    -5.16       13:00
Nymex Gasoline     217.50     -23.40    -9.71       12:59
 
 
 NATURAL GAS ($/MMBtu)
                              PRICE* CHANGE  %CHANGE TIME
Nymex Henry Hub      11.72      -.04      -.31        13:00
Henry Hub                11.31     -1.34  -10.59        09/01
New York City Gate    12.32     -1.71   -12.19       09/01
 
 
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/

I just paid $2.93/gal to fill up at about 11 AM this morning.  I passed by some empty pumps and places with lines here and there, but I didn't have to wait where I finally stopped and fueled up.

Wonder how world gas prices would compare if you just considered the actual price of the product, minus taxes, fees, and import duty.  At the moment, in Europe, gas at the pump is  running about twice the US price, and Canada is not far behind.

I just read in the news that European oil companies are considering selling to the US to take advantage of our spike in prices. (Article didn't say if they were talking about refined fuel or crude oil).  We already get oil from Canada.  US oil companies sell to Japan and other Asian countries, including China (I think).  China's price is still far below ours.  Not sure about Japan's.

Point is, if the cost of fuel is only a reflection of the product itself, why would US sell to China where the price  is dirt cheap compared to ours, and why would Canada and Europe sell to the US for half what they could get on their own turf?

I don't know, but I wonder if us selling to, say China, could have to do with the controls governing makeup of gasoline that can be sold in this country -- controls that may not be in place in a country like China.   That would make selling to overseas customers more profitable.  The oil would be extracted by American oil companies from wells overseas, it would be refined overseas and sold overseas, so transportation costs would probably be lower, too.   Just a stab in the dark. 

I did hear that Europe was going to be selling refined gas to the USA as crude is not what is really needed.Also the refineries in western Canada have decided to for-go annual fall maintenance in order to keep refining gasoline and heating fuel for the US market.

Friday morning traffic was very light. We figured people were just blowing off work to start the weekend early. Traffic on the way home was also light! Also saw far less SUV and overblown station wagon type vehicles. Seems like the plan is to leave the big vehicles home with wifey and use the beat up second car for the commute. One problem was with poor plannning. Saw 6 breakdowns. Cars being hooked - off to the shop.  Guess the around town wifey cars are not up to the commute. People are also slowing down on the highway. Slow down - use less gas.... ;)

Ur right, my pickup uses about 5% to 10% less fuel at 65 MPH than it does at a steady 75 MPH. Pickups and SUVs have the same aerodynamics as a brick.

Dump the pickup and get one of these.

http://www.classicdreamcars.com/35AIRFLOW.html

Even Hitler recognised the value of fuel economy as the shape was copied for the Volkswagon.
 

I'm really surprised they aren't talking about slowing us down to double nickles again. It would make sense.

George George when are you going to learn. There is nothing wrong with gas prices. As a matter of fact  in real dollards gas is cheaper than ever. It's just that  we are too dumb to realize how cheap gas is so we have cut back on our driving and forced the price to go up in artificial dollars so we think we are paying more. And remember what Uncle Bush says, ... Cut down on unessesary driving !! Viva la Busche

 What is a real dollar?  Explain it to my bank account?

 :)

;D Pretty much says it all Dave,

Interesting prediction from August 2005.  Here in Marietta Georgia, regular is now $4.07, premium is $4.37.  I wonder what the price will be after the July 4th holiday weekend?  And in the beginning of 2008???

Nice Necro!

We were working pretty hard over the weekend so I suggested we get some ice cream. Maybe we apply this same logic to gas. JN and head over to the store and check it out. Prices about the same as last year but the container is 3 pints not a 1/2 gallon. So if they start selling gas by the quart prices will be so much better.

I bought some wood moulding this past weekend, to replace some rotted wood.  The tag said it was 3/8" thick, which was exactly what I needed.  After I cut the piece to size, it had a lot of  slop when I tried to fit it in.  Measured it, and the thickness turns out to be 11/32" instead of 3/8".

At least they are somewhat honest with plywood.  3/8" sheets are now marked "11/32 approximately 3/8".

Some of my house repair/restoration projects have been WIP's for almost 30 years.  Inevitably when I put something on the back burner for a few months or a year or so, when I go  back to it, I can no longer get more of the exact same material I started out with to finish.  Either it's "discontinued" or the size is not the same, so it's back to substituting an inferior product, and shimming and trimming to make the pieces fit.

And they wonder why "consumer confidence" is at an all-time low.