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WA1GFZ
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« on: August 15, 2005, 09:09:44 AM »

We saw $3.11 driving through Colchester ct. last night. First time over $3.

Thank you Mr. Bush.   
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John Holotko
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2005, 10:05:27 AM »

I know, it's crazy. And  this administration has 3 more years  to go. What will we be looking at 4 or maye 5 dollars a gallon by than ??

In places like  NY they really got people over a barrel (no pun intended). The priced people  out of the city so they have to move 50, 100  miles away. Yet they need the job, the job is in the city, there is not enough public transportation so they have no choice but to drive and burn the gas. At this rate how long will they be able to afford to buy gas to get  to work ??
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2005, 10:23:01 AM »

AND WE HAVE NO INFLATION YOU KNOW!
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W9GT
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2005, 11:34:28 AM »

One cannot help but wonder what all is behind this.  Particularly, it is interesting to note how certain areas and communities seem to be singled out for even higher than average gas prices!  The Fort Wayne, IN area for instance,  is generally always 5-15% higher than average in the state.  It is also interesting to note also that Allen County (which includes Fort Wayne) has had one of the highest vehicle per capita ratios in the U.S.  Could it be, that we have a little marketeering strategy here?  Hmmm...Maximize profits, while working on the areas with high concentration of useage.  As the saying goes....Whatever the market will bear.   Angry  Angry
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W1UJR
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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2005, 12:44:02 PM »

One cannot help but wonder what all is behind this.  Particularly, it is interesting to note how certain areas and communities seem to be singled out for even higher than average gas prices! <snip>


Its all part of the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" don't you know.
Yep, the boys from Texas have conspired with the folks in D.C. raise the price of gas in all of the "Blue States".

In the real world, most of what you pay at the pump is a direct result of state and federal taxes.
I doubt our goverment has the ability or time to coordinate a gas price comspiracy.
"Targeting" certain areas and communities, please, thats a direct result of an Air America OD.

Let's be real here.
Did you think it might cost more to truck gas into NYC?
Or to store gas in NYC?
Or service the facilities in NYC?
Or that ground rents are more expensive in NYC?

Property owners and investors need a favorable ROI.
If it costs more to do business in a certain city or state, then the customer pays more.
Its nothing personal, its simple math.
Of course the same thing holds true in rual areas as well.
As the cost of doing business rises, so to much retail prices rise.

In my mind, gas prices are like the weather, pointless to complain about because they can not be changed.
I don't even pay attention to the pump price anymore.
I know I am getting hosed and would rather think about more pleasent things.
Fuel prices are a necessary evil to obtain and do the things which bring me enjoyment, like hamfests.

I just glad that I am in America where I can do what I want, say what I want and drive what I want.
I'll pay an extra $5-10 per week in gas costs for that privledge.

Do I hear an Amen?
Or at least a "God Bless Mel Gibon"?  Grin

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W2VW
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2005, 12:47:18 PM »

Supply and demand rears it's ugly head. People are still cruising at 80 MPH on the Parkway here. Guess the $3.00 plus price is not impacting them enough to actually think about conserving.
The price will rise more if the demand stays where it is. Economics 095.
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W9GT
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2005, 02:22:05 PM »

Property owners and investors need a favorable ROI.
If it costs more to do business in a certain city or state, then the customer pays more.
Its nothing personal, its simple math.
Of course the same thing holds true in rual areas as well.
As the cost of doing business rises, so to much retail prices rise.

I don't really disagree with this statement conceptually, however, something  far more out of the ordinary is at work here when surrounding "rural areas"  generally have much lower gas prices.  This has been observed over quite a long period of time.  Also, if anything, it is less expensive to market within the larger concentrated market area in consideration of delivery costs, etc.  As for the "Right -Wing  Conspiracy" .......that is the usual cop-out that is heard when something is wrong and unexplained.  I'm really not convinced that government involvement has either caused, or added to the problem.  I do know that it hasn't done anything to improve it.  Where was all of the concern when everybody was buying SUVs and Trucks and using gas like it was water?  What I do believe is that in a free market society the consumer ultimately has the most powerful weapon....don't buy it if the price is too high!!  Find alternatives, develop ways to get around high prices and go on with our lives the best that we can.  Here's hoping the Hydrogen fueled car is getting closer to reality on a large scale.
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wa1knx
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2005, 02:29:09 PM »

its hard to pin it all on bush. we are drinking more oil everyday.
I was around for the 74 and 79 gas crunches as I'm sure many
of you were. not fun. then we switched to enconomical cars.
now its sherman tanks on the road, and I have to watch em
driving my corolla!
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2005, 03:08:59 PM »

We saw $3.11 driving through Colchester ct. last night. First time over $3.

Thank you Mr. Bush.   

Frank,
Where in my dumb town did you see $3.11?  What gas station? What grade of fuel?
Bob
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2005, 05:10:41 PM »

We saw $3.11 driving through Colchester ct. last night. First time over $3.

Thank you Mr. Bush.   
Yet we are told there is no relation to  record oil company profits and record prices. I'm sure Pin Head will get right on it as soon as he gets back from his 5 week vacation.
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W8EJO
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2005, 06:04:09 PM »

[AND WE HAVE NO INFLATION YOU KNOW!]

High fuel prices do not cause inflation any more than high prices for Rolling Stones concerts or 3-500Z's.

Inflation comes only as the result of government(s), via either fiscal policy (government taxing & spending) or monetary policy (lending & credit practices), increasing the money supply beyond the growth of goods & services offered for sale in the economy.  This results in more dollars bidding for the same quantity of goods & services. The "demand" measured in $'s increases for the same "supply" of goods & services resulting in a higher general price level.

This inflationary  increase in  the money supply is "accomplished" via fiscal policy when govenments "monetize" their debt. That is they print money on their printing presses to pay the government's bills.  This leads to no net increase in the economy's goods & services, but a big increase in the economy's supply of money.

This inflationary  increase in  the money supply is "accomplished" via monetary policy when  central banks ( like our Federal Reserve), ease interest rates & bank reserve requirements & through their open market activities (selling treasury bills).
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Terry, W8EJO

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Jack-KA3ZLR-
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2005, 06:13:12 PM »

I read it somewhere, that it's all Rockefeller's Revenge... I can't remember where I read it...

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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2005, 07:23:15 PM »

Could it be that certain local and state blending regulations, ala "designer fuel" be part of the problem?  Seems as if I heard that somewhere.  If NY, CA, CO and NM could use the same fuel we do in rural OK, then all refineries would be on the same sheet of music.  That might impact high prices.
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Bacon, WA3WDR
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2005, 07:58:22 PM »

Frank,
Where in my dumb town did you see $3.11?  What gas station? What grade of fuel?
Bob

Gas is around $2.679 to $2.879 in northern Virginia.  I guess it could be over $3.00 on I-95 and such.
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2005, 08:27:36 PM »

Sadly, I'm only noticing that it's the truckers that seem to be slowing down a bit...On a recent run from here to Chicago I noticed very few truckers exceeding the posted interstate speed limits.

I'm of a mind that if we could all achieve even a 1 MPG improvement is efficiency, the ~5% reduction in national fuel consumption would cause pump prices to greatly drop.  And I don't believe that there's a single vehicle out there that couldn't get a lousy 1 MPG better average mileage, by inflating tires, slowing down a tiny bit, or getting a tune up.

It's too bad that the President can't emulate his predecessors during times of crisis by bringing this to everyone's attention- Start by playing leader...
Jimmy Carter got a lot of crap for wearing a cardigan sweater while asking Americans to conserve energy, but we got the message. It worked. That's what a president *should* be doing.

All it'll take is a 1 MPG effort on the part of Americans to buy us time as our petroleum problems are worked on and we transition to 21st Century solutions.

The other issue is infrastructure...We're constantly hearing that our lack of refining capacity is a large contributor to fuel prices..
I also have to ask why, when making record profits, the petroleum companies aren't building new or expanding their existing refineries- Investing in their own businesses and building them up.  I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, but the question begs asking.
If you can make $X with your present business, why invest $Y if it'll reduce the selling price and profits from your products? Even though doing so would be in the national interest?

See, it's not just the hard-core enviros that aren't helping this country...

(rant mode off)

..
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Jack-KA3ZLR-
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« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2005, 08:29:26 PM »

But what if the whole country would take Two Days and don't drive, Just stop, Saturday and Sunday, Nobody could do it though we're to entrenched on personal Mobile access.

But think of the impact....
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2005, 09:07:34 PM »

Jack, it doesn't matter how we help ourselves by reducing petroleum consumption, maybe some people could not drive on weekends as you suggest, maybe for others it's easier slowing down from 80 to 75 MPH...Or buying a hi-tech air filter...or running your tires up 2 PSI...Or running some injector cleaner though the pipes. I buy biodiesel fuel at $3/gallon when convenient to get it...THAT money stays in the the good ol USA, not to Sheik Yerbootie. It all adds up.
Does "Waste not, want not" still apply in the 21st Century? You bet it does.
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2005, 09:28:47 PM »



The other issue is infrastructure...We're constantly hearing that our lack of refining capacity is a large contributor to fuel prices..
I also have to ask why, when making record profits, the petroleum companies aren't building new or expanding their existing refineries- Investing in their own businesses and building them up.  I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, but the question begs asking.
If you can make $X with your present business, why invest $Y if it'll reduce the selling price and profits from your products? Even though doing so would be in the national interest?

See, it's not just the hard-core enviros that aren't helping this country...

(rant mode off)

..

Well start with Local and State taxes on the new construction and it's products at year end.  Add to that EPA regulations that require new construction exceed standards that present operations meet  and the cost is out of site.  If substantial enlargements or improvements are made to an existing plant, the new rules apply.  Add to that the cost of litigation when there is an accident (yes they do happen, not all are preventable) or fuel spill.  Check your auto policy, I would bet it contanins some clause either paying for or not  paying for environmental clean up following an accident.

We need to look inward to our expectation as to what can be reasonably accomplished in a short period of time at reasonable costs rather than believe the moon will be on our doorstep tomorrow.

Here on I 35 between Dallas and Oklahoma City if we could just get the people who live in OKC, Tulsa, Kansas, Nebraska, New Mexico, Wyoming, Montana, and Colorado to  just drive 5 miles over the posted speed limit, we would save a bunch of fuel and the local residents lives would be much safer.  I almost forgot Louisana.
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W8EJO
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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2005, 09:55:16 PM »

Here is some data from the California Energy Commission for the week ended 8/1/05. They track fuel prices and costs & profits along the production & distribution chain.

California Energy Commission      
Gasoline Price Breakdown & Margins Details      
      
Week Ended                                                      08/01/05     %
Distribution Costs, Marketing Costs and Profits         $0.12       4.7%
Crude Oil Cost                                                         $1.42     55.7%
Refinery Cost and Profits                                         $0.49     19.2%
Federal State and Local Sales Taxes                         $0.52     20.4%
Retail price                                                         $2.55    100.0%
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Terry, W8EJO

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W1UJR
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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2005, 10:00:03 PM »

I'm of a mind that if we could all achieve even a 1 MPG improvement is efficiency, the ~5% reduction in national fuel consumption would cause pump prices to greatly drop.

Bill,

I like your point about keeping your petrol dollars in-country, that I do agree with.

But please explain how lowering the national fuel consumption will directly result in lower fuel costs?
I can't see the relationship.
Yes, I understand Supply and Demand, so give me a bit more tangiable.
What it sounds like you are saying is that wholesale energy costs and supply have remained fixed, but in the real world neither of those metrics are static.


-Bruce
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David, K3TUE
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« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2005, 11:09:24 PM »

Its all part of the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" don't you know.
Yep, the boys from Texas have conspired with the folks in D.C. raise the price of gas in all of the "Blue States".
[...]
Do I hear an Amen?

Amen.

Your price is a total, of price, profit (pennies), and tax.

Some taxes are $/gal and some are % of sale (sales tax is just one) and they can come from (go to) local, county, state, and federal sources (destinations).

As I recall, when I last worked at a gas station in the 90's, in W NY, when gas was somewhere under a dollar and a half, 85 cents per gallon was the cost of fuel, and an average of 42 cents went to taxes (not including sales tax).
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« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2005, 11:19:24 PM »

I'm of a mind that if we could all achieve even a 1 MPG improvement is efficiency, the ~5% reduction in national fuel consumption would cause pump prices to greatly drop.

Bill,

I like your point about keeping your petrol dollars in-country, that I do agree with.

But please explain how lowering the national fuel consumption will directly result in lower fuel costs?
I can't see the relationship.
Yes, I understand Supply and Demand, so give me a bit more tangiable.
What it sounds like you are saying is that wholesale energy costs and supply have remained fixed, but in the real world neither of those metrics are static.


-Bruce
Bruce, I'm thinking that if we can reduce petro use by a few percent, than a few of the factors that have driven up fuel prices will be improved. One factor is refinery utilization, which instead of being ~95% as it is today, would be cut to 90%. That could reduce market price jitters, especially if a major refinery had problems. And, yes, there *are* the laws of supply-n-demand and friends that you can't completely discount.

My other comment  is for Jim. OK, I understand the daunting obstacles to building or expanding refineries. But we've seen that we can overcome obstacles when we want to.
Sure a new major refinery could be built! It could be built and privately owned, and doesn't have to be in American territory. What some piss-poor Carribean island nation would give to host a mega-refinery.
There's planty of coastal cities in this country that would welcome the business and jobs in a heartbeat and not *all* of the thousands of miles of US coast is inappropriate for a refinery. We don't Need the California or Miami tourist beaches, do we? Our coastline is *not* pristine, to say the least.
So how much does gasoline have to go up to before it's worthwhile to build a refinery and make a markup out of processing gazillions of barrels of crude? I don't buy that it's impossible, I think it's simply a matter of maintaining industry profitability vs. American security.
Why build another, more reliable cookie factory if you can sell every one you make and your markup keeps going up? And every time you have a breakdown on the conveyor belt, you make even more $ ?

That's been my own thinking as of late. It seems as obvious as anything, and I'm not prone to being a conspiracy nut.

-Bill

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David, K3TUE
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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2005, 11:21:54 PM »

But please explain how lowering the national fuel consumption will directly result in lower fuel costs?

Simply by lowering your overall cost for fuel over a period of time.  It will not lower the price at the pump.

Example:
If you keep driving and paying the same amount per week,
but you buy a car that get's 33% better fuel mileage (eg. 33mpg to 44mpg) then you consume 25% less fuel in a week and pay 25% less every week for fuel.
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David, K3TUE
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« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2005, 12:02:00 AM »

Something to ponder, from a wire story today (Canton (OH) Repository)-
Either there's truth to it, or not:

-----------------------------

SINGAPORE (AP) — Crude oil futures opened the week lower as fears about refinery breakdowns eased after the weekend passed without reports of new refinery problems.
(snip)

Gasoline fell nearly two cents to $1.9858 a gallon while heating oil lost almost a cent at $1.8965.
(snip)

Analysts said the market had been on edge leading up to the weekend on fears that more refinery breakdowns would occur at a time when plants are already running at near-maximized levels, leaving little room for disruption.

“The market is seeing that there weren’t any outages over the weekend and so they’re more relaxed about the outlook, as compared to ahead of the weekend when a lot of people bought just in case there were refinery problems,” said commodity strategist David Thurtell at the Commonwealth Bank of Australia in Sydney.

-Bill



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WV Hoopie
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« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2005, 02:40:38 AM »

Last Saturday regular was $2.47 a gallon at one of the cheapest stations AM/PM, in the Eugene/Springfield area. Same day along the coast, (Reedsport, Coos Bay) $2.75 for regular and over $3.00 per gallon for premium.

To some extent, it is supply and demand. China and India are stretching the demand. Those of us who have used our passports have paid higher prices in Europe for fuel years ago.

Price differences can be caused by transportation cost and or blending requirements due to environmental laws. The LA basin, Southern California has some of the strictest air polution requirements and demands special blends of fuels. Having dealt with the South Coast Air Quality Management District for ten years, I can understand some of the cost of producing gasoline and diesel fuels.

I participated in the construction and start-up of two large hydrogen plants in the LA Basin. Can't build a hydrogen plant for an oil refinery for less than 100 million. All this just to strip the sulfur from the oil and the refineries have to invest in new processes to please environmental regulations. The Air Quality Management District has the staffing to develope/write standards which industry must abide by. As a small example, the calibration gasses which we used in our Continuious Emission Monitoring equipment cost at least three times the normal pricing for calibration gas due the special certificate of analysis required by the AQMD.

Those waiting for the hydrogen economy, don't hold your breath too long it isn't healthy. Large scale manufacturing of hydogen in today's world is in a SMR. That is a steam, methane reformer; and where does methane come from? As oil prices increase so does natural gas! There is no free lunch.

The only country where I see a chance is Iceland. They have geothermal energy to produce steam, to run turbines, to product electricity, to product hydrogen from electrolysis of water.

Other options; how about good old mass transit? I can remember where the family car sat in the garage and was used just to go to church. Dad took the bus to work. Mom and the kids took the bus to go shopping. Last time work meant travel to the Netherlands, lots of bicycles everywhere, could help with the obesity issue here in the states.

At any rate, it is going to interesting........

Hoopie,
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