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40 meters early mornings in Europe




 
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KX5JT
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John-O-Phonic


« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2011, 03:02:04 AM »

Are you still up?
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pe1mph
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pe1mph AM from Holland


« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2011, 03:57:03 PM »

7.200 free here tonight at my time pa usa hear no one! July 7 anyone around to try morning AM mode!

Sorry...
I monitored 7200 this morning, but not free!
On that freq. I hear broadcasters...
But around 7220 is between 06.00 - 07.00 by me free.
And evenso 7195 is during that time free.

I keep my eyes aerly morning on both freq.

Greetings,

pe1mph / Henk
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AA5T
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« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2011, 11:18:23 PM »

Hi, Did a little research on 40M AM this evening. At 10PM CDT, Houston, The
following frquencies had BC stations active. 7.200, 7.210, 7.220, 7.230.
The band is wide open to EU. G and OK stations 9+10.
For 40M AMers to make some 2way AM contacts will take a little planning.
PE1MPH, your band activity comments are helpful.
I don't know how much AM power you can run in Holland?
Here our limit is 375 watts carrier.
I will do some more monitoring as time permits.
73,
John, AA5T

 
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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2011, 11:33:33 PM »

Something that would really help would be if the FCC expanded the 40m phone band down at least to 7100.  Very often, the entire phone band below 7200 is fully congested with few, if any, open  frequencies, while frequencies below 7125 down to about 7060 are very lightly occupied if there is any activity at all.  The CW and digital activity seems to congregate mostly below 7060 even when there is a major CW or RTTY QuaRMtest on.

Since ARRL doesn't seem to be motivated to take any action, maybe it's time for someone else to take the initiative and submit a Petition for Rulemaking.  I have seriously considered doing it myself, but this is something that needs to be very well thought out and carefully worded, and I just haven't taken the time.  There are many die-hard CW operators who are dead set against "losing" any more CW frequencies to phone, even though they rarely if ever use 7060-7125 kc/s. Of course, the CW ops wouldn't be losing a thing, since CW would still be fully legal all the way across the band from 7.0 to 7.3, and most of the RTTY and "data" stuff seems to be congregating around 7040 these days.
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AA5T
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« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2011, 12:02:30 AM »

Don you are correct. In 50 years the ARRL has done nothing about 40M. That will
not change, especially in regard to AM.
As I have mentioned we may have to go back to split operation, we above 7.200 and
EU below 7.125.
Would be nice if it was not so.
73,
John, AA5T
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Sam KS2AM
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« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2011, 12:03:55 AM »

Hi, Did a little research on 40M AM this evening. At 10PM CDT, Houston, The
following frquencies had BC stations active. 7.200, 7.210, 7.220, 7.230.

There is AM broadcast activity in Europe between 7200-7300 virtually 24 hours a day.  Sometimes you can't hear a broadcast station here in North America that others in N.A can hear. Recently someone here posted that they were calling CQ on a particular 40 meter frequency and when I tuned to that frequency I heard nothing but a broadcast station out of Europe with a weaker BC station under it.   So what sounds like a clear frequency to one person may not be clear to others.

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KX5JT
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John-O-Phonic


« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2011, 12:07:26 AM »

There is some digital/rtty operation around 7.070 through 7.090.  I run Hellschrieber around 7.073 with moderate success.  I often hear some Italian and Spanish phone (sideband) there though.

No need to work split anymore on 40 since we and Europe now have priveledges between 7.125 and 7.200.

I whole-heartedly agree that the U.S. should expand the phone priveledges down to at least 7.100, that would be handy. 

John KX5jT
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« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2011, 12:30:28 AM »

Hi, Sam I have fought the 40M wars from the EU side as an SM7. Right now
there is a carrier on 7.170. That is the only one from here. If not running split
then perhaps use AMFONE.Net to spot open frequencies. I need to know what
power the EU guys can run. Perhaps one of the EU AMers can tell us. PE1MPH?
73.
John
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Pete, WA2CWA
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« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2011, 12:36:12 AM »

No need to work split anymore on 40 since we and Europe now have priveledges between 7.125 and 7.200.

I whole-heartedly agree that the U.S. should expand the phone priveledges down to at least 7.100, that would be handy.  

John KX5jT

If you can't make the contact within the current mentioned above 75 KHz segment, why would adding 25 KHz more (and for whom - Extra?, Advanced?) make it "handy". We had great opportunity to have a regular AM presence around 7160 KHz when the 40 meter band changes were initiated several years ago, but that has died off. Now, for the most part, N. A. AM'ers are just diddling 7200 and 7300 KHz where all the SW broadcasters reside for many hours a day.
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« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2011, 12:40:56 AM »

Hi, Well no AMers between 7125 and 7.200. The band is open to EU. If they had
transmitted then I should have heard them. Maybe they are not running any power,
I don't know.
73,
Good Night
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« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2011, 12:45:47 AM »

I need to know what power the EU guys can run. Perhaps one of the EU AMers can tell us. PE1MPH?
73.
John


That might be a country specified rule. One would probably have to check the amateur radio rules for a particular country.
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KX5JT
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John-O-Phonic


« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2011, 01:01:11 AM »

No need to work split anymore on 40 since we and Europe now have priveledges between 7.125 and 7.200.

I whole-heartedly agree that the U.S. should expand the phone priveledges down to at least 7.100, that would be handy.  

John KX5jT

If you can't make the contact within the current mentioned above 75 KHz segment, why would adding 25 KHz more (and for whom - Extra?, Advanced?) make it "handy". We had great opportunity to have a regular AM presence around 7160 KHz when the 40 meter band changes were initiated several years ago, but that has died off. Now, for the most part, N. A. AM'ers are just diddling 7200 and 7300 KHz where all the SW broadcasters reside for many hours a day.

I hear AM on 7.160 in the late morning/ early afternoons from
Texas/Louisiana/Arkansas/Oklahoma areas.  What I have found is
most DX on 40 phone is in and around 7.160 Mhz.  7.158 is a busy
frequency throughout the night.  7.163 also.  

So it would be HANDY to have a few dozen mhz lower.  Pete, surely
you can understand this?

I shall start cooridinating a few of us post-midnighters down around 7.135
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« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2011, 01:01:31 AM »

Don you are correct. In 50 years the ARRL has done nothing about 40M.

The ARRL and IARU represented the interests of amateur radio in the WRC-2003 conference.  That conference led to (most) broadcasters vacating 7100-7200 kc.   Sometime after that, many European countries allowed the amateurs in their respective jurisdictions to use 7100-7200 - a privilege that they did not have before.  Thats why you can now hear nightly phone activity between North American and European stations between 7125-7200.
If I'm reading the results of WRC-2003 correctly, the ARRL/IARU and others also wanted the broadcasters to vacate 7200-7200 by the year 2015. No agreement was reached on that however.


As I have mentioned we may have to go back to split operation, we above 7.200 and
EU below 7.125. Would be nice if it was not so.

As per my other post, I don't see that as being practical since there is AM broadcast activity in Europe between 7200-7300 virtually 24 hours a day.  Even if a frequency seems clear in North America, there may be a broadcast station on that frequency audible in EU. Even finding a spot between broadcast stations in EU is challenging - most of the 7200-7300 range is "swamped" by AM BC stations running hundreds of kilowatts. Its unlikely that an EU amateur station is going to pick a 375 watt AM amateur carrier from North America out that mess.

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pe1mph
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pe1mph AM from Holland


« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2011, 09:46:26 AM »

As I have mentioned we may have to go back to split operation, we above 7.200 and
EU below 7.125. Would be nice if it was not so.

As per my other post, I don't see that as being practical since there is AM broadcast activity in Europe between 7200-7300 virtually 24 hours a day.  Even if a frequency seems clear in North America, there may be a broadcast station on that frequency audible in EU. Even finding a spot between broadcast stations in EU is challenging - most of the 7200-7300 range is "swamped" by AM BC stations running hundreds of kilowatts. Its unlikely that an EU amateur station is going to pick a 375 watt AM amateur carrier from North America out that mess.

Thats correct Sam!
When we in EU hear an AM station from the USA between 7200 -7300 then it is 'lucky'!
Sometimes, read again: sometimes!, around 7220 is free early mornings by us!
Till now I can not give you, USA AM Lovers, a 'good' AM freq. lower then 7200.
Sorry, but nearly every morning I monitoring that part of 40 mtrs.
And I do it with pleasure for all AM stations... Grin

Greetings,

pe1mph / Henk
Dokkum / The Netherlands
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AA5T
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« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2011, 11:09:44 AM »

Hi Henk,
If we are both monitoring then we cannot make contact. You state that early morning
7.200 is clear for you. It does not matter that I hear a BC station on there, you will
not be hearing it.
I propose that this coming Tueday 12 July, I transmit on 7.200. This would be
morning Wed. 13 July for you.
I will transmit at 10PM and 11PM Central Daylight Time. We have 7 hours difference.
You are GMT+2. That would be 5AM (0500) and 6AM (0600) your time.
If you hear me you would post it on AMFONE.NET.
This way we might get something started.
Please reply if you are interested.
73,
John
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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2011, 12:02:51 PM »

If you can't make the contact within the current mentioned above 75 KHz segment, why would adding 25 KHz more (and for whom - Extra?, Advanced?) make it "handy".

Please explain why there might any longer be any justifiable reason to restrict phone in the (continental) US from 7100-7125. Often, when 7125-7200 is totally congested with US and DX phone activity, little activity can be heard in 7100-7125, except for a few DX SSB signals, and occasionally a handful of US CW ops who like to operate around 7112, in some misguided effort to keep the old defunct novice segment alive, while there is plenty of vacant space to operate "slow speed cw" between 7060 and 7100.

The 40m situation changed radically when (most) broadcasters vacated 7100-7200 and amateurs in Europe and elsewhere regained access to that segment. Even though the US amateur band runs from 7.0 to 7.3, the sub-band restrictions in the lower 48 limit non-split US-European QSOs to a measly 75 kc/s out of the total of 300. A 33% expansion of the broadcast-free US phone allocation would reduce congestion in that segment.

Another thing that makes no sense now is that US hams in Alaska, Hawaii and US overseas territories  like Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Guam, etc. are allowed special phone privileges on 7075-7100.  The reason for this is that originally, in Region 3 (Pacific Islands), ITU regulations prohibited amateur operation above 7100, and hams in Puerto Rico,  Virgin Islands, Alaska and Hawaii claimed that the shortwave broadcasting interference rendered those frequencies unusable, so in order  to have a place to operate phone, the FCC granted them  that special exemption.  Now, with most broadcasters gone, and amateurs once again allowed on 7100-7200 in both Regions 1 and 3, there is no longer any useful purpose for those special privileges outside the lower 48.

To avoid taking away anyone's existing privileges, i.e. the special phone segment on 7075-7100, I would propose moving that segment up to 7100-7125, and furthermore, to make it available to all US licensees regardless of where they are located on US soil.

This is a phone issue, not just an AM issue.  Both AM and SSB would benefit from this minimal expansion of phone privileges.  The Extra, Advanced and General class sub-sub band allocations would be a separate issue altogether.

The existing FCC mode restrictions in the US are based on the old international allocations when 7100 and above was elusively broadcasting outside the Amercias. That has changed now. It is way past time for the US amateur allocations to reflect this change.
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« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2011, 03:56:23 PM »

If you can't make the contact within the current mentioned above 75 KHz segment, why would adding 25 KHz more (and for whom - Extra?, Advanced?) make it "handy".

Please explain why there might any longer be any justifiable reason to restrict phone in the (continental) US from 7100-7125. Often, when 7125-7200 is totally congested with US and DX phone activity, little activity can be heard in 7100-7125, except for a few DX SSB signals, and occasionally a handful of US CW ops who like to operate around 7112, in some misguided effort to keep the old defunct novice segment alive, while there is plenty of vacant space to operate "slow speed cw" between 7060 and 7100.
...

To avoid taking away anyone's existing privileges, i.e. the special phone segment on 7075-7100, I would propose moving that segment up to 7100-7125, and furthermore, to make it available to all US licensees regardless of where they are located on US soil.

This is a phone issue, not just an AM issue.  Both AM and SSB would benefit from this minimal expansion of phone privileges.  The Extra, Advanced and General class sub-sub band allocations would be a separate issue altogether.

The existing FCC mode restrictions in the US are based on the old international allocations when 7100 and above was elusively broadcasting outside the Amercias. That has changed now. It is way past time for the US amateur allocations to reflect this change.

If I were the FCC, I would apply the resources for change where there was a perceived problem. Personally, I don't see a problem with the current 40 meter regulation. Unless, your feeling is "they have it" "we don't" BAH, BAH "we're treated like second class citizens", etc. etc.

Even if the change was made, I would suspect the same thing will happen as what happened with the 80 meter phone band expansion. When the change was made, many initially ran down to the new segment to rally around the amateur flag, hop for joy, wave the microphone high in the air and proceeded to make contacts including many AM'ers. Within several months, the exodus was reversed and many were back to their old stomping grounds further up the band. Change can be a bitch when you're stuck in a rut.
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« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2011, 06:11:39 PM »


Pete said:

"
Even if the change was made, I would suspect the same thing will happen as what happened with the 80 meter phone band expansion. When the change was made, many initially ran down to the new segment to rally around the amateur flag, hop for joy, wave the microphone high in the air and proceeded to make contacts including many AM'ers. Within several months, the exodus was reversed and many were back to their old stomping grounds further up the band. Change can be a bitch when you're stuck in a rut. "


This is ridiculous!  I hear plenty of phone action down in this portion of the band and it's a JOY to operate there without so much QRM.  This is what Don and I are saying about the section of 40 meters as well.  What planet do you live on Pete?

John KX5JT
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k4kyv
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« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2011, 06:36:23 PM »


If I were the FCC, I would apply the resources for change where there was a perceived problem.

How much FCC "resources" would it take to make a slight change in the domestic frequency allocations? Just a few strokes with a keyboard and submitting a document or two to the federal register, and issuing a public notice for comments, etc.  What else are those "career civil servants" paid their $100K a year to do?

Quote
Even if the change was made, I would suspect the same thing will happen as what happened with the 80 meter phone band expansion. When the change was made, many initially ran down to the new segment to rally around the amateur flag, hop for joy, wave the microphone high in the air and proceeded to make contacts including many AM'ers. Within several months, the exodus was reversed and many were back to their old stomping grounds further up the band. Change can be a bitch when you're stuck in a rut.

That's their problem if they don't want to use it.  Leaves more open QRM-free space for those of us who do. I doubt if many AMers would immediately jump down to use 7000-7125 segment; but DXers would in the evening when the band is wide open to Europe. That might leave it less congested for AM operation in the vicinity of 7160.

Quote
Personally, I don't see a problem with the current 40 meter regulation. Unless, your feeling is "they have it" "we don't" BAH, BAH "we're treated like second class citizens", etc. etc.

That's exactly the present situation. Hams in the Lower 48 are about the only ones in the entire world who aren't allowed to operate phone in 7100-7125 (and below 7100 for that matter). We here in N. America are relegated to the back of the 40m bus simply because we hold a lousy US licence. It is the FCC, ARRL, etc, who are stuck in the rut, content to retain useless frequency restrictions based on a moot issue (the now defunct exclusive allocation of 7100-7200 to international broadcasting in regions outside the Amercias).
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« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2011, 08:21:27 PM »


  What planet do you live on Pete?

John KX5JT

Earth - 3rd rock from the sun.
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« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2011, 08:36:53 PM »


If I were the FCC, I would apply the resources for change where there was a perceived problem.

How much FCC "resources" would it take to make a slight change in the domestic frequency allocations? Just a few strokes with a keyboard and submitting a document or two to the federal register, and issuing a public notice for comments, etc.  What else are those "career civil servants" paid their $100K a year to do?

I would suspect someone there first would have to even identify it as an issue before any wheels would start to turn.

Quote
Quote
Even if the change was made, I would suspect the same thing will happen as what happened with the 80 meter phone band expansion. When the change was made, many initially ran down to the new segment to rally around the amateur flag, hop for joy, wave the microphone high in the air and proceeded to make contacts including many AM'ers. Within several months, the exodus was reversed and many were back to their old stomping grounds further up the band. Change can be a bitch when you're stuck in a rut.

That's their problem if they don't want to use it.  Leaves more open QRM-free space for those of us who do. I doubt if many AMers would immediately jump down to use 7000-7125 segment; but DXers would in the evening when the band is wide open to Europe. That might leave it less congested for AM operation in the vicinity of 7160.

It's strange that we haven't heard complaints from the DX or even the contester crowd that this is even an issue on 40 meters.

Quote
Quote
Personally, I don't see a problem with the current 40 meter regulation. Unless, your feeling is "they have it" "we don't" BAH, BAH "we're treated like second class citizens", etc. etc.

That's exactly the present situation. Hams in the Lower 48 are about the only ones in the entire world who aren't allowed to operate phone in 7100-7125 (and below 7100 for that matter). We here in N. America are relegated to the back of the 40m bus simply because we hold a lousy US licence. It is the FCC, ARRL, etc, who are stuck in the rut, content to retain useless frequency restrictions based on a moot issue (the now defunct exclusive allocation of 7100-7200 to international broadcasting in regions outside the Amercias).

So, submit a Petition for Rulemaking to the FCC and see if they'll take it under consideration. Bitching about it, and doing nothing about it, isn't going to go anywhere other then putting it on the same P&M list with "QEX instead of QST".

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« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2011, 09:10:48 PM »


  What planet do you live on Pete?

John KX5JT

Earth - 3rd rock from the sun.

Alright Pete, maybe I was being a bit harsh with the planet statement.  It just seemed incredible to me that you implied the phone expansion on 80 meters was not effective.  The new area IS an asset to us, especially AMers.  

The Florida AM group meets on 3.655 Mhz AM and conducts a weekly net as well as operating casually there at any time relatively QRM free.

There is a casual group of old timer AMers that gather on 3.663 in the early mornings and afternoons as well.  

Then there is the ESSB group that plays down on 3.630 lsb who can enjoy their facet of operating relatively unmolested.

Oh did I mention trying to operate phone (SSB or AM) during a weekend night when there are contests going on full bore?  Yes the expanded portion of 80 meters is one of the bastions of sanity during these times.

Anyway, for these same reasons, expanding our 40 meter phone priveledges would be good.

John Kx5jt
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« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2011, 01:17:08 PM »

So, submit a Petition for Rulemaking to the FCC and see if they'll take it under consideration. Bitching about it, and doing nothing about it, isn't going to go anywhere other then putting it on the same P&M list with "QEX instead of QST".

I have been seriously considering doing that.  But a petition must be well thought out and carefully worded.  I haven't taken the time to seriously get started on it, or maybe I'm just plain lazy.

But still that's no reason to gripe just because I brought up the idea on this forum for discussion. Maybe the input from others would be helpful in eventually formulating a formal petition, and if it is a good idea to begin with, it wouldn't hurt to float the idea amongst others in the amateur community before jumping in with both feet.

Remember, the ARRL initiated the discussion over the Incentive Licensing proposal months, if not years, before submitting a formal petition, and generated a lot of controversy (to say the least) on the subject before any official action was taken.
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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
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pe1mph AM from Holland


« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2011, 01:29:44 PM »

Hi Henk,
If we are both monitoring then we cannot make contact. You state that early morning 7.200 is clear for you. It does not matter that I hear a BC station on there, you will not be hearing it.
I propose that this coming Tueday 12 July, I transmit on 7.200. This would be
morning Wed. 13 July for you.
I will transmit at 10PM and 11PM Central Daylight Time. We have 7 hours difference. You are GMT+2. That would be 5AM (0500) and 6AM (0600) your time.
If you hear me you would post it on AMFONE.NET.
This way we might get something started. Please reply if you are interested.
73,
John

John, this morning I listen again. Cheesy
But contesters blowing all away!!
Not 7200 is mosly free after 6 O'clock by me, but around 7220 khz.
I listen every morning on 40 mtrs after that time.
When I hear a station I shall 'post' it here.

Greetings, Henk
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« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2011, 03:41:45 PM »

OK, Henk,
7.220 it is. Perfectly fine with me. Same time schedule as I am limited on other evenings this week. I am retired but work now more than ever. :-).
 73,
John, AA5T
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