RF Spectrum analyzer for computer - recommendations?

[Tom WA3KLR]

Has this thread really gone to sleep?

Frank, only you would consider hot-rodding a R390A.

[WA1GFZ]

Tom,
The mixers are a weak link in the R390A.
I once bought a beautiful R392 from Fair Radio but let it go when I got into the Racals. I had a nice R390A with meters that I almost got into.
I think there is performance hiding in that radio.

[Tom WA3KLR]

No doubt.

I went through my files on Atlas and found that I have 2 sales brochures for the 350XL; one from April 1977 and one from April 1978.  I would have picked up both at Dayton.  One of the changes in the '78 brochure was to include a little touting on the receiver design and drop another paragraph.

One interesting note on the block diagram - the receiver has an audio noise limiter in addition to the i.f. noise blanker, a wise idea.  Lester Earnshaw?

[Tom WA3KLR]

So Mr. Tommy Vu, what u gonna due?

[Tom WA3KLR]

Just for kicks I Googled Lester.  I saw him speak at one of those wonderful technical forums at Dayton in the late 1970's.  If I recall correctly, he did work for Swan and Racal also.  I never knew that he was a novelist.

From pacificislandbooks.com:
"In The Bonds of Love by Lester Earnshaw. ISBN 1877161640. Published by Hazard Press. Recommended retail price $15.95.
Brian And Ailsa’s married life has not been easy, and Brian’s entrepreneurial ambitions have driven Ailsa to take their two daughters back to her home in the Orkney Islands. The bonds of love, however, draw Ailsa back. Life is hard on the Warkworth property Brian has bought, but Brian and Ailsa are united in their determination to make a success of their venture into chicken farming. Events, however, conspire to drive the couple apart as they try to cope with the dramatization of one of their daughters, accidental losses of stock on their smallholding, and Ailsa’s growing need for autonomy. Something has to give – and it does when Ailsa nearly loses her life.
Where other romantic stories end at the alter, In the Bonds of Love explores the reality of two strong-minded people learning to preserve their mutual love and respect in an unforgiving world.

Lester Earnshaw was born in Hawke’s Bay, and grew up in New Zealand. Since 1961 he and his family have lived in the United States. He is the author of Olivia (1995) and The Radio Man (1997). Soft cover, 300 pages. Published in 2000."

From Amazon.com – on his “The Radio Man” book:
"Editorial Reviews
Product Description
Larry La Salle returns to New Zealand after wartime service to find his experiences constitute an unbridgeable gap between him and his home town. The return to civilian life is made more difficult by his now being a radio/radar technician in a country with no electronics industry. Emigration to America seems his best option, but it may take years to obtain a visa. Consequently he sets up his own radio business in Warkworth and gradually becomes more and more involved with the characters of the town, including a series of its women. As years pass, his American dream and the memory of his wartime romance become ever more remote. Lester Earnshaw s chronicle of The Radio Man is peopled by engaging characters and is a sympathetic examination of the dislocation felt by many New Zealanders who returned to a country they loved. Also by Lester Earnshaw - Olivia.

About the Author
Lester Earnshaw was born in Hawke's Bay, New Zealand. He served in the Royal New Zealand Air Force from 1941 to 1946 in Britain, Africa and Italy. In 1961, he and his family moved to the United States where he founded Kachina Communications Inc., a radio communications manufacturing company. Lester Earnshaw lives in Sedona, Arizona. His first novel, Olivia, was published in 1995. "

From hammarlund.info:

"The HQ-215, the first and only solid-state receiver produced by Hammarlund, was  designed in the mid-1960’s by Lester Earnshaw, but did not go into production until 1967. This amateur-band receiver was compatible with the Collins “S” line units which employed the same frequency generating scheme, thus making it capable of functioning in the transceive mode with the Collins transmitter. This receiver was produced in limited quantities."

[KF1Z]

Interesting article in QEX this month...

Big FPGA / ADC / DAC for a neat little transceiver.

Also, an article about using an ethernet connection for audio for SDRs in replace of a soundcard.

[KM1H]

This is always an interesting chart to look at:
http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

 

The problem with that is the procedures used are all over the map over decades and its impossible to do an accurate comparison. Plus several people did the testing whichs adds another layer of uncertainty. I really dont put much faith in those reviews which started back in the 70's when he was peddling his R-4C kits.

I ran my own lab tests at work in the late 80's to early 90's of a TS-930 plus stock and several levels of mods in a TS-940 and got far better numbers than Sherwood. So did others in the YCCC testing a wide range of rigs especially to contest standards.....some were worse.

Jays tests were AM only and also stopped at 20M which falls way short of examining a receiver.

Yes, altho a R-390A is about the pinnacle it can still be improved but Id rather put the effort into a 75A4 which is more usefull for ham activity. Instead of tearing into my already highly modded A4 I just might do it to a virgin A3 with Pullen mixers, product detector, more filters, AGC, gain equalizaton and other fine tuning. After all its only an old Collins

Carl

[K1JJ]

I was surprised to see the 75S3B Collins RX so far down the list with the deaf stuff.  I once owned one myself and finally sold it. It looked pretty, but I could never understand why I couldn't hear well with it. The same for the Yaesu 101. Not to be cornfused with the FB FT-102.

Tom, I'm going to try a simple 455kc down converter into the computer and see if that suits my spec analyzer needs.  Feature-wise, I still think the Flex 5000 would be a wise choice to replace my FT-1000D having two RX capability and fully integrated TX/RX software. It is also a proven design in the field.  I could always sell my FT-1000D and four AM modified FT-102's to defray the cost and feel better about it.

I hear Gary, WA1OXT, on with his Flex 5000 almost every night lately working 75M DX and talking with the ESSB guys. Then he hits AM for a while. He sounds like he's having a ball and praises the Flex every chance he gets.  He sounds possibly the best of any station on the band, audio-wise. I listened to his bandwidth last night and it was tight. He mentions he is running a pair of 8877's in his station descriptions, so that is a hefty signal to tame.

Still, when Frank says to wait two years and look for a better SDR rig to come out that doesn't use a computer, I wonder.  It's like the 90's when we all waited for the next computer design and were never able to jump in. However, there finally came a time when computers were hihi FB and the cost was down to $500. It took a decade or so to do it. The SDR revolution still has time to go yet before the prices crash, the Asians take over manufacturing and we start to level off in innnovations for a while.  No one wants to buy a $3K wonder and see it valued at $1000 a couple of years later.

T

[WA1GFZ]

Bruce,
My QEX has not arrived yet but it sure sounds like Hermes.
A couple guys out there are messing with H mode mixers that do close to plus 50 IP3. Up at that level the issue becomes the roofing filter ability to handle power. My last homebrew I used a six section LC filter with a 3 dB bandwidth of about 100 KHz. Then after a bit of gain I used a KVG 41 MHz roofing filter 7 KHz wide. Still close in power can damage the crystals. Some guys in the UK use two filters connected with quad hybrids to split the power between two parallel matched filters phased 90 degrees apart.
Still all this cool analog stuff is limited by synthesizer phase noise for close in performance.
I'm not sure what is inside the 5000 for an LO source maybe a combination of DDS and PLL which seems to be the hot set up these days.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Still, when Frank says to wait two years and look for a better SDR rig to come out that doesn't use a computer, I wonder.  It's like the 90's when we all waited for the next computer design and were never able to jump in. However, there finally came a time when computers were hihi FB and the cost was down to $500. It took a decade or so to do it. The SDR revolution still has time to go yet before the prices crash, the Asians take over manufacturing and we start to level off in innnovations for a while.  No one wants to buy a $3K wonder and see it valued at $1000 a couple of years later.

T

When I ordered my Flex 5000 back in 2007 I paid a lower price then what they are selling for today.  If one hits the used market for sale, asking price is generally within $100-$200 of what I paid for mine new. And, over the years, they developed two lower price points (3000 and 1500) for those that didn't need all the 5000 bells and whistles. The beauty of the Flex 5000 or 3000/1500 is that, although the hardware stays the same, the software is constantly being improved to add additional features and functionality. Integrating the computer into the shack is not new. DX'ers and contesters have been doing it for years. VHF and UHF operators find it an invaluable tool. If you operate any of the digital modes, it's part of your equipment lineup. The computer, in all its variations, is really now an integral part of the shack equipment lineup. Most of the big box ham manufacturers only in recent years have provided the ability in some of their equipment to download updated firmware to correct bugs in equipment software but very little of that is new feature and functionality. When the front panel knob is silk-screened or stamped "function A" it's hard to change the function to something else unless they also supply "sticky labels" along with the software. Don't have that problem with software defined radios.

[KA8WTK]

... I'm going to try a simple 455kc down converter into the computer and see if that suits my spec analyzer needs.

Tom, I think that would be the best thing to do for now. The cost is reasonable (cheap) for the hardware and the software (many types) are free. Once you get a feel for what can be done, you can purchase the more expensive items later when you know exactly what it is you wan to do. This is why I bought the Softrock so many years ago. It was a cheap introduction to the concept and the software.

I also agree about the "waiting" factor. Wait! There will be a faster, smaller computer. Wait! Cars will get better mileage. Wait! The cost will go down. Waiting can be a good thing, but there are ways to try something now for the right price.

Bill KA8WTK

[K1JJ]

The eHam reviews are interesting. Most are "religious" rantings. Some are informative. I see many suggest getting a late model computer, though my older dual core machine may work OK according to some.

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/6626



But READ BELOW - here is a technical guy who thinks the Flex HARDWARE is flawed and the firewire interface will be obsolete in < 5 years.    Yes, software can be updated indefinately, but the hardware will always evolve too and a Flex 5000 will probably seem like a dinosaur in ten years compared to the latest and greatest.

I don't really think there is a solution. If we all knew what technology would be favored in the future, we'd be doing it now. There will always be guys who bought the leading edge stuff two years ago, dumping it for the latest. But, Pete, it looks like you made a good decision in 2007 with an SDR (Flex 5000) that has stayed mainstream and held its value well.   I did the same thing with my used FT-1000D purchase 10 years ago. Some rigs did not do so well, like the Globe 500C knockout... :-)



* W0FMS said in an eHAM review:

This review is based on my experience with a club station 5000A. The club has had the radio over a year I only fixed it and used it for a few QSOs.

We lost the Firewire driver on the computer (do not know how) and I therefore re-installed it like it was a new radio. VAC isn't working either and I still haven't reinstalled it.

Overall, the Flex-5000A is more polished (as you'd expect it to be for the price) than my personal -1500. Much more. So much I decided to not get rid of the -1500 like I was about to do.

Once I did get it working again, most of the comments of "beauty of brickwall filters" etc you will see here still apply. DSP is a wonderful thing and certainly that applies to these radios.

There are still major issues with the core design of all of the Flex radios, though. And I still take it that most of the praise for these are "religiously" based. And what I find odd is that truely speaking only the SDR-1000 followed that religion exactly.

What do I mean? To the religion of "Flex" the Moore's law applies -- I.E. the computer is disposable (though a new $800-1000 computer is always recommended and usually AMD on top of that since they clearly work better than Intels of higher capability) but the radio needs never be replaced.

If you were to put in a small DSP (and not have all of the computer/latency/Real time issues then not be a problem like they are for the FLEX line) then you'd need to throw out the radio because of the "old DSP".

Well, there are two problems with that. One: a old DSP can be programmed to bypass. Or a card could have been designed for these radios with the CODEC (A/D D/A) and DSP on it seperate from the RF and that could have been upgradable.
The second problem is that due to legatimate usability factors, the CODEC (soundcard literally) is now built into the radios and is not upgradable. It doesn't take much research to determine that the TI codecs used are high end audio card components (or even IPod chips). They will go obsolete just like a DSP would have... maybe sooner.

So I don't really understand the whole rationale? The low dynamic range of today's CODECS (yes 24-bits is low compared to real communications standards) will still be replaced.. meaning the radio will be obsolete.

This is I guess why I tend to think that Flex Radios are more of a religion. The 5000 works well.. much better than the 1500 (which I've finally determined to be a still unstable sound driver archetecture which is promised to be fixed-- it's better in 2.0.8 than it was in 2.0.7)... but over all the "Moores law" argument that FRS uses to justify having Windows act as a RTOS (which it will never be) by throwing fast computing hardware at the problem (when at HF bandwidths early 1990 DSPs had more than enough horsepower to handle ham modes) really is more of a "religion" than fact.

I'm sorry to burst the bubble of the Flexers but really the core engineering designs of these radios are fundamentally flawed.

Having said that, the 5000A is as refined as you can get with the archetecture and really was pleasant on the air once I got it working again.

VHF has such poor sensitivity as to be unusable on the 5000 and even the "improved" 1500 it clearly is the least sensitive 6m rig I own.

This is why I give it a 4 (and the 1500 still a 3). Compared with the Kachina of 10 years ago, however it is a step backwards in technology.

The firewire interfaces are starting to turn obsolete as well.. I imagine in <5 years it may be difficult to find support for this interface.

Also if you criticise Flex you will quicky notice that your posts no longer appear on their reflectors. Hmm... At least I can still see posts from others...

Discussion like my review here "are not helpful" and therefore can be totally and legitimately dismissed as invalid.

Fred W0FMS

[Steve - K4HX]

Since the Flex system seems to be evolving to doing more of the heavy DSP work in the box vice on the computer, the interface to connect the two is less important. Even if Firewire goes away, so what.

If you get a Flex Tom, will you spend all your on air time talking about it?

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Since the Flex system seems to be evolving to doing more of the heavy DSP work in the box vice on the computer, the interface to connect the two is less important. Even if Firewire goes away, so what.

If you get a Flex Tom, will you spend all your on air time talking about it?

If Firewire sort of goes away, I'm sure there will be Firewire to whatever interface conversion cards popping up. I'm willing to bet there is Flex back room work going on for creating newer hardware/software designs for market introduction a few years down the road. You can only keep a ham product so long on the market before it starts to grow hair although Kenwood still is actively marketing its original TS-2000 which is entering its eleventh year. As far as computers, I picked up an after Christmas clearing out sale at Office Depot, a HP dual-core machine complete with monitor for $400. It think regular selling price was $699 or $749. The thing works great with the Flex along with some other ham related software. When I feel real ambitious, I might go in and clear out all the HP pre-installed software bloat threw on the machine.

If Tom gets one, he can start an AM Flex Net, or AM Flex blog, or JJ Flexing on Facebook, or get on Twitter and post Flex tweets.

[K1JJ]

If I get one, you can bet your ass I'll be smugger than Queen Elizabitch!

I was day-dreaming about it during Yaz's walk tonight. Imagine the Flex controlling a Big Mo-FO solid state linear. A 10-20M Log Periodic with other associated mouse click ants.   6M capability too.  QSY QRO band to band in seconds. Wow.  Then the problem becomes, who do I talk with?  Too many choices

I would take a bulldozer and move out all the big HV supplies, the FT-1000D, FT-102 rigs, SP-600 kluge, Henry amp, Dr Love, Fabio, Rico Suave....  It would be a bloodbath. All that would be left would be audio processing gear, a computer, Flex 5000 box and SS amp.  

It would look like one of those hi hi FB neat, attic, homo-newbie stations you see on QRZ from the UK.. HA!


T

[KF1Z]

Bruce,
My QEX has not arrived yet but it sure sounds like Hermes.
A couple guys out there are messing with H mode mixers that do close to plus 50 IP3. Up at that level the issue becomes the roofing filter ability to handle power. My last homebrew I used a six section LC filter with a 3 dB bandwidth of about 100 KHz. Then after a bit of gain I used a KVG 41 MHz roofing filter 7 KHz wide. Still close in power can damage the crystals. Some guys in the UK use two filters connected with quad hybrids to split the power between two parallel matched filters phased 90 degrees apart.
Still all this cool analog stuff is limited by synthesizer phase noise for close in performance.
I'm not sure what is inside the 5000 for an LO source maybe a combination of DDS and PLL which seems to be the hot set up these days.

Not Hermes... but the basic architecture may be close...

It's someone's homebrew stuff..

No schematic that I can find...
A block diagram, and maybe the PCB cad.


http://james.ahlstrom.name/transceiver/

[Pete, WA2CWA]

If I get one, you can bet your ass I'll be smugger than Queen Elizabitch!

I was dreaming about it during Yaz's walk tonight. Imagine the Flex controlling a Big Mo-FO solid state linear. A 10-20M Log Periodic with other associated mouse click ants.   6M capability too.  QSY QRO band to band in seconds. Wow.  Then the problem becomes, who do I talk with?  Too many choices

I would take a bulldozer and move out all the big HV supplies, the FT-1000D, FT-102 rigs, SP-600 kluge, Henry amp, Dr Love, Fabio, Rico Suave....  It would be a bloodbath. All that would be left would be audio processing gear, a computer, Flex 5000 box and SS amp.  

It would look like one of those hi hi FB neat, attic, homo-newbie stations you see on QRZ from the UK.. HA!
T

With all stuff removed, you could walk a straight line through your shack. You might want to consider getting a video card(s) with multiple outputs to control all your stuff with nothing more then a mouse or keypad. I use a Shuttle Pro for tuning (a real knob) and a bunch of programmable buttons for major functional control.



Shuttle Pro - http://retail.contourdesign.com/?/products/23

[WA1GFZ]

HPSDR decided to go network rather than fire wire for the reasons stated above.
I am very surprised that Flex has not gone to DDC. The hardware count is less. My guess is they don't have the internal talent.

[Steve - K4HX]

You don't even need the audio processing gear. All that can be done on the computer!

You could compete the station with a SteppIR Dream Beam DB36. You'll have it all!

If I get one, you can bet your ass I'll be smugger than Queen Elizabitch!

I was dreaming about it during Yaz's walk tonight. Imagine the Flex controlling a Big Mo-FO solid state linear. A 10-20M Log Periodic with other associated mouse click ants.   6M capability too.  QSY QRO band to band in seconds. Wow.  Then the problem becomes, who do I talk with?  Too many choices

I would take a bulldozer and move out all the big HV supplies, the FT-1000D, FT-102 rigs, SP-600 kluge, Henry amp, Dr Love, Fabio, Rico Suave....  It would be a bloodbath. All that would be left would be audio processing gear, a computer, Flex 5000 box and SS amp.  

It would look like one of those hi hi FB neat, attic, homo-newbie stations you see on QRZ from the UK.. HA!


T

[KF1Z]

If they plan to advance, they'll HAVE to go to DDC.

You just can't go any further, and still use a 'soundcard'.

Yes the 5000 still uses a soundcard, even if it IS built into the radio.

Funny thing is, the radio can be MUCH better, give the users something to REALLY be smug about.

And, could be cheaper at the same time.

Homebrew your own "flex-type" radio, same features, same or better specs than the 5000...
Total cost... Less than $1000.

(still use flex software even!)


Then you can be smuggerer  

[K1JJ]

Homebrew your own "flex-type" radio, same features, same or better specs than the 5000...
Total cost... Less than $1000.
(still use flex software even!)
Then you can be smuggerer  

Now THAT wud interest me. Even a kit wud be cool if they could keep the profit margin low just like the Asians.

Surface mount...hmmm.    I wonder if it would be as difficult as a class E rig? I can do that..

T

[KA8WTK]

Tom,
  Don't let surface mount scare you away. My eye sight is nothing to brag about anymore (blended trifocals), but I have built several kits using surface mount components with good results.
    DDS-60, 3 Softrocks, 2 FCC-1 and a FCC-2

Bill  KA8WTK

[KF1Z]

Surface mount is SO much quicker and easier than through hole!

No lead-forming, no lead clipping.....

[Pete, WA2CWA]

If they plan to advance, they'll HAVE to go to DDC.

You just can't go any further, and still use a 'soundcard'.

Yes the 5000 still uses a soundcard, even if it IS built into the radio.

Funny thing is, the radio can be MUCH better, give the users something to REALLY be smug about.

Ya never know what's going on in the technology back rooms.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

You could compete the station with a SteppIR Dream Beam DB36. You'll have it all!

Last I heard, there was a waiting list for this one.

There is also software that adds virtual COM ports to your Flex lash up to control your No-Tune Amps, rotators, antenna switching, and just about any other accessory you can think of to better your operating experience.