RF Spectrum analyzer for computer - recommendations?

[Steve - K4HX]

From some of the comments I've heard, there will be a waiting list to have them repaired after the first wind or ice storm.

[K1JJ]

Scary picture.

Yep, $5K for a Dreambeam. Sounds like a nightmare to me.  Trombone tubes sliding in and out in the wind and ice. Yeah.   That complicated digital box control with motors inside the beam els - can't wait to see it hit by a nearby lightning strike.  I feel sorry for the hams who get sucked into that.

Kinda like a Monster IR beam with the green copper inside straps.

For longevity, give me a standard tough rotary mono-band Yagi or a log periodic any day.

Just think of what you cud build for $5K. Heck, my scrap alum triple 40M Yagi stack cost me around $600 total, maybe less.

T

[Steve - K4HX]

I managed to hook up with a guy the other night that was using one of those SteppIR verticals. He went on for about 15 minutes about the antenna and how wonderful it was. especially focusing on the low SWR. I didn't even ask him about his antenna. Once he got going, I did ask a bunch of questions and he happily replied. I'm glad he likes it.

I didn't have the heart to tell him he was PW!

[K1JJ]

My Gotham Vertical had a low SWR too. I just can't understand why I called CQ for three days without a reply.

Yep, they get "religion" about their purchases. Stop by a website that features Toyotas, Colt 45's, Harleys, Icoms, Flex's, Moster IR's or any other specialty and they'll kick your ass if you have anything bad to say about their particular idol...

Like a 14" dome of hornets, just imagine the posts if some alligator SSB AM-hater happened to staggger onto this site and talked about banning AM...

T

[KF1Z]

If they plan to advance, they'll HAVE to go to DDC.

You just can't go any further, and still use a 'soundcard'.

Yes the 5000 still uses a soundcard, even if it IS built into the radio.

Funny thing is, the radio can be MUCH better, give the users something to REALLY be smug about.

Ya never know what's going on in the technology back rooms.

No, but when you are actually into SDR, you tend to do a lot of research on what else is going on other than in  the flex-world.


Thing is, people tend to think that the only way to have "top-performance" is to buy the ready -packaged, no knowledge needed option.

[WA1GFZ]

Tom,
Surface mount is very easy once you have a good microscope and a good soldering iron with a clean tip. Then you need a good ESD strap so you don't fry LSI parts when you handle them. I agree with Bruce. Through hole is a pita.
OTOH .025 lead pitch can be a pain.

[Steve - K4HX]

Probably the majority of hams think that about most things (antennas, tuners, amps, coax, etc). Why would SDRs be any different?

The reality is most hams want a complete system, produced by a company with a track record. Things like customer service and support, a real manual and a warranty are important. Another dB of performance is irrelevant when the system is not supported.

If they plan to advance, they'll HAVE to go to DDC.

You just can't go any further, and still use a 'soundcard'.

Yes the 5000 still uses a soundcard, even if it IS built into the radio.

Funny thing is, the radio can be MUCH better, give the users something to REALLY be smug about.

Ya never know what's going on in the technology back rooms.

No, but when you are actually into SDR, you tend to do a lot of research on what else is going on other than in  the flex-world.


Thing is, people tend to think that the only way to have "top-performance" is to buy the ready -packaged, no knowledge needed option.

[w3jn]

The big gripe I have about the SDR world is a dependence on so-called "user groups" for documentation and information.  It seems most manufacturers, on their websites, just point to a yahoo group.  Reviewing the group's activity, in turn, presupposes a fair amount of knowledge of the product in question.

Here's a prime example - it doesn't even say what this company is selling.  Software?  A SDR radio?  Other hardware?  Some combination?  But there is a helpful Yahoo! link at the top 
http://sdr-radio.com/Home/tabid/156/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Here's another manufacturer with a content-free web page
http://www.microtelecom.it/perseus/

I will give Flex a lot of credit for having good documentation and info on their web page.  Perhaps that's one reason they're more popular than the rest, although certainly the Flex is aimed more towards the Yaecomwood customer than hams that can decipher this disorganized and confusing mess: http://openhpsdr.org/

[Steve - K4HX]

Heh. The worst was the Soft Rock web page (so called). You had to look for a long time to find out where/how to order one. Maybe he did that on purpose so he wouldn't get swamped with orders. 

[W2VW]

I'm pretty sure stepper packs some funny dust along with their product.


 

I managed to hook up with a guy the other night that was using one of those SteppIR verticals. He went on for about 15 minutes about the antenna and how wonderful it was. especially focusing on the low SWR. I didn't even ask him about his antenna. Once he got going, I did ask a bunch of questions and he happily replied. I'm glad he likes it.

I didn't have the heart to tell him he was PW!

[WA1GFZ]

I agree with you guys about the customer suport and manuals. OTOH if you follow HPSDR you  would find members very helpful when new guys show up with old problems. I think everyone there sees that when a new module shows up a high volume buy helps control costs. I only had one issue whit the hardware so far. My Mercury RX had a bad relay around the input attenautor.
I reported it to TAPR and a new one showed up in a few days. It was a risk getting involved in this but so far it has worked out well for everyone.

Softrock site was a real pain to find. Tony Parks is retired and started making modules as a hobby. Demand for his hardware has exploded andyou sure can't beat his prices. I homebrewed my own tayloe converter similar to a Flex front end with the same fancy inst. amps.  I spent close to $100 to make a converter. Softrock is still the biggest bang for the buck and lowest risk.

[K1JJ]

Roger, on cornfusing websites.   I don't get it.   It's not that hard to put together a well-organized site.  It's especially funny when you cannot find how to order something.   I came across that the other day.


They did a survey some years back comparing government forms and mail order offers that come in the mail.  By far, the mail order offers and literature were many times easier to understand and fill out than the government forms. Maybe the reason is that the mailorder companies had to make it easy or die. The gov't is, well different... :-)

Flex certainly has a good company machine going. I also liked the WinRadio company in Au.  They were first class and obviously a well-funded, large company doing gov't contract biz too.

It would be nice to have an SDR system (TX and RX) put together using the best of the best modules on the market and interface it with Flex's SDR software. They do have a good interface and I love the presets for all functions, the EQ, audio processing, antenna nulling, dual RX capability, etc etc. Flex is a complete system that may eventually become the "MicroSoft standard" of SDR, who knows?

T

[K1JJ]

Here is a very informative question and answer listing about the Flex radios.

Notice they plan on a new software program to replace the current PowerSDR temporarily called "Deep Impact."

They now have the ability to be biased into class A final operation. I like that for driving a linear!

The wording seems to indicate it was written at least a year ago or more, because some of the things they say are about to come out are already out. (like the 2nd RX option)

http://flex-radio.com/Products.aspx?topic=faq#genSDR


And, here's the "Knowledge Center" for the Flex 5000:
http://kc.flexradio.com/KnowledgebaseCategory14.aspx

T

[K1JJ]

Craig,

Your post below was very informative. I missed it because it was in a quote box and looked old.

The info you posted below about the FT-1000D IMD was excellent. I will be trying the settings on my own 1000D.  Also the spectrum analyzer info and the Winradio spec analyzer board you ordered looks promising for real time work.  I will look these over more carefully.

Thanks again.

T


----------

Hi Tom

The G31DDC samples the  whole 30mhz shortwave spectrum and then the software also samples  smaller slice up to  2mhz(variable)
You can get the resolution bandwidth down to 1hz!

My reasons for buying this box was exactly the same as yours, mainly for spectrum analysis and nothing more. I also have SDR-IQ and a old HP8594 for IMD  and on air testing. I could not afford the SDR-IP from RFSPACE. The HP does not have enough dynamic range nor is it fast enough to capture IMD bursts from ALC overshoots etc. The SDR-IQ easily captures  these IMD products under real voice conditions. This article goes into the reasons why most spectrum analyzers dont do the job of on air IMD detection very well.

http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/alc.htm

What also worried me about buying any old HP spectrum analyzer is that most of them are unsupported. If you do  you get  unit with a blown mixer you  have thrown your money away. The only decent analyzer that is still widely supported is the 8560 series of analyzers. However even on fleapay they are still selling for minimum of $5K

I think if you going down the Softrock road the LP-PAN is best bet. Its a professional solution  and works well.

http://www.telepostinc.com/LP-PAN.html
Telepost is also coming out with an integrated solution however I dont know how good it will be.
http://www.telepostinc.com/LP-500.html

I also use the Elecraft P3 however I find the screen cramped and  the unit is not as flexible yet as a computer controlled SDR, this might be solved later when they release the external monitor option.

As for the debate on a SDR_radio replacing high end spectrum analyzers,  this is a certainty  in ham radio anyway  since hams simply cant afford real time spectrum analyzers or any spectrum analyzer that has sufficient enough performance  that enables a true assessment of on air signal quality. Besides real time spectrum analyzers are the talk of the town at the moment in RF test circles.

Have a look at Rohde FSVR  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgyrWDQjUHM
The real time display looks similar to the Winradio Excalibur! Anyway i cant afford $100K plus however  the SDR solution lets me  experience what  real time spectrum analysis has to offer at a cheap price.

As for HPSDR and Phil Covington, they all have nice ideas, however I cant wait  for kits and development. When they do release their products in a professional and supported manner I will buy.  All the off the shelf SDR hardware  that I have bought, I have been able to recover a reasonable % of my money  when selling  and funding other products. Its just about impossible  to get your money back if you heavily invest in HPSDR products. Thats my take from a distance anyway.

73
Craig
VK3HE

[WA1GFZ]

Some guys drink beer, I have HPSDR modules. I've been very happy with it so far.

[ke7trp]

The dream beam is to complex for me.  I helped install one of those four times because the gears jumped the internal tape when the controller said GO when the tape roll was at the end.   This thing was on a 120FT  tower and had to be lowered on rope pulleys for repair.

The Flex never sounds right to me.  I can pick them out on the air instantly when in the AM mode.  Even with huge $ Audio proc gear and carefull setup, They just dont have that Plate modulated sound and big strong in the room audio. I have listened to you many times on the 4x1 rig and I can tell you that you will never, Ever, ever even come close to that big clear audio punch you have on that rig.

They also break down. There is a users group on 40 meters.  I listen in the mornings when I am home since I know most of those guys.  It seems that just about every week one of them is back on yaecomwood because his Flex is down.  Relay failures,  Card connector failures, Driver instability and the biggest issue is lack of windows knowledge causing all kinds of issues. Performance suffers as you go up in Freq. This has been reported many many times on 40.. Guys go to 15, 10, 6 ect and start to notice that the old Yaecomwood is superior.

Also consider that in the begining, You will think you can use the same computer for email, Web surfing ect ect.. But in the end it seems that most get a seperate PC for that on any of the flex models so now you have 2 PCs in the room.

The biggest flaw that you need to know about is that if you power down the computer in the wrong sequence then the damn thing keys up all night.  This has happend many times on the air.  A local here in AZ shut his PC off and went to bed. That Flex was keyed for 24 hours straight right on our AM FREQ.  This of course anoyed the hell of all of us.

If you want to play around with one go ahead. But I think your making a mistake. I think you have one of the best radios ever made hands down. I think you should just pay the money for the Bandscope and put a cheap flat screen up. Then you will be happy with the 1000d.  That is all you are missing now.. and the band scope is the reason I use this little 756 pro everyday.  My flex was gone in a weeks time.

[K1JJ]

Clark,

I must say, I agree with much of your post...  

Though most of the Flex's I've heard sounded very good, especially on ssb. Set-up and computer interfacing is important - I think the design itself is capable of good audio. But there's tons of variables involved.

Yes, those mechanized antennas can be a nightmare. I am hearing some of the Euro-gurus laugh lately when they talk about some of the StepperIR ants with *green* copper tapes inside the elements. There's a local here with the MonsterIR 40M capable Yagi who says it's broken several times and wishes they offered a higher priced version with better parts. O'well.  Some guys have better luck and have no problems. I like the solid, non-moving elements of a mono-bander or log periodic myself.

Back to the Flex... there is a vely famous local AMer who just bought a Flex 5K. He also bought a 4-core computer and hot-rodded it dedicated for the Flex. I will see how his works out. Already he said the RX is really FB and is impressed with the dual diversity using phase and amplitude ant mixing. He said the sync detector in the Flex is BETTER than the highly acclaimed Sherwood unit.

Also interesting is he mentioned that Flex has a $100K military version that has a 30db! better dynamic range than this 5K unit.  The parts in it are too expensive now, but in a few years will come down and SDR's will totally dominate the field.  Riceboxes will be history.   So based on that, I think I will see how he makes out with his system and also wait to see what new stuff comes out with the newer A/D converters, etc.  In the meantime, I will play around with a 455kc  down converter off the SP-600 for spec analyusis and receiver fun.

As is, my FT-1000D based station is well optimized and I'm happy with it. The test will be when my local Flex friend and I do some receiving comparisons for DX and see what happens. I can be easily swayed if I get beat up too badly... :-)

BTW, I just tuned up the 4X1 rig for 75M and hope to have it on tonight. If cornditions are good, I will be calling for west/ west coast on 75M tonight in the ~3880 area. Maybe see ya on.  (BIG IRON RADIO, caw mawn)

T

[ke7trp]

Sounds good Tom. I just repaired my SP600 so my 2x4/304TL rig is now back on the air with Big tuner and good RX. I shall join you tonight if you are going ot be on late. I am dealing with a neighbor with bad coax and dont want to start a fight.

Keep in mind that the west coast AMI net is on around 7 or 8 pm here.  Last week we had Tim and some other guy on 3875 blasting Hetrodynes over 3870 which pretty much ruined the net for about 60 people. 3880 might be to close. There is alot of people trying to enjoy that Net with lots of new Am'ers and I am sure you are going to put big signal here.

I love technology.  With the people that have the means to dump $15,000+ into an HF rig, more power to them. But for me to do that, I need to know its worth it. To me, Its not worth it.  The Flex side by side to the FT1000D is the real test. I am very lucky to get to test out alot of these rigs and it sure is alot of fun.







 

[K5UJ]

The 5000 is QUITE the radio!

Things I see lacking:

1) Only -31db IMD for 200w out. I wud think they wud be better by this time, but they do have the class A 75w mode for -75db? 3rd.

The class A option with Yaesu rigs is rarely used because in the 200 W. PA rigs, the FETs get really hot very fast.  The FT5K may be different.   I have been told they have to be run at the full 75 w. level for the least amount of heat dissipation but they still get damn hot and everyone AFAIK runs the usual class AB because no one wants to fry the FETs and pay $$ for new ones.   

I'm feeling inadequate, depressed and way behind the times...   

I actually enjoy it and am delighted to let others blow money on buggy new stuff while I run 15 to 60 year old gear.  Y'all sell your boat anchors and get new rigs but wait for the rest of us to save up money and vacation time for the buying trips 

Re SteppIR a few years ago I worked a guy in Mississippi who had recently spent a few thousand bucks on one of the 4 el. beams.  He had it up for about a day or two when it got hit by lighting.  That was the end of it.   I think he was planning on putting his quad back up. 

<<I didn't have the heart to tell him he was PW!>>

Probably had two radials or a chain link fence ground system.

[K5UJ]

I hear Gary, WA1OXT, on with his Flex 5000 almost every night lately working 75M DX and talking with the ESSB guys. Then he hits AM for a while. He sounds like he's having a ball and praises the Flex every chance he gets.  He sounds possibly the best of any station on the band, audio-wise. I listened to his bandwidth last night and it was tight. He mentions he is running a pair of 8877's in his station descriptions, so that is a hefty signal to tame.

He does have a great sounding sig. but unless he's changed things, Gary is about the only ham I know of who figured out how to get the Behringer 9024 compressor set up right.   I had one and found it so trying of my limited patience that I gave it to Derb and eventually wound up with a CRL SEP400B that has knobs that I could wrap my head around.  Gary also has one hell of a set of pipes and is one of the lucky few who could make a tin can and string sound good.

[K1JJ]

Oh yeah, Gary has THE voice.  No substitute for a good radio voice, no matter how much gear we buy. Even the "Big Bottom" didn't work...

BTW, on the Flex, I later found that they have programmed in the ability to run the Flex 5K at a reduced power in pure class A operation.   Nothing like starting out with a super clean exciter.  That's assuming the previous stages are as clean as the PA - AND the amplifier stages are designed correctly. A poorly designed amplifier can run in class A but still be dirty as hell.

T

[Opcom]

My Gotham Vertical had a low SWR too. I just can't understand why I called CQ for three days without a reply.

Yep, they get "religion" about their purchases. Stop by a website that features Toyotas, Colt 45's, Harleys, Icoms, Flex's, Moster IR's or any other specialty and they'll kick your ass if you have anything bad to say about their particular idol...

Like a 14" dome of hornets, just imagine the posts if some alligator SSB AM-hater happened to staggger onto this site and talked about banning AM...

T

stagger onto the site or swagger in? Methinks swaggerin' is more fitting for those smug types. C.O.B. s

[K6JEK]

Oh yeah, Gary has THE voice.  No substitute for a good radio voice, no matter how much gear we buy.
...

I've decided to hire that homeless guy to say whatever I want to say.

[Opcom]

That guy already got hired! "will talk for food".

As for getting religion, once someone is bamboozled out of, er, I mean, invests $5000 or more on a technical item they probably don't understand, and finds out too late that it does not do everything so bright and shiny, they have a choice:

1.) "drink the koolaid and defend it to the death"
2.) "admit being outsmarted and look foolish"

[K6JEK]

That guy already got hired! "will talk for food".

As for getting religion, once someone is bamboozled out of, er, I mean, invests $5000 or more on a technical item they probably don't understand, and finds out too late that it does not do everything so bright and shiny, they have a choice:

1.) "drink the koolaid and defend it to the death"
2.) "admit being outsmarted and look foolish"

3) Sell it to somebody else.