The AM Forum

I'm looking for a self-contained piece of RF spectrum analysis hardware that will put out a USB signal to the computer.  I already have a SoftRock board, but it's fried - doesn't work. I don't want to waste any more time on it or buy another one, nor depend on an outboard receiver for the 455kc output.

Steve/HX had sent me a link six months ago (IIRC) of a tunable RF unit that put out the required audio signal for about $350?  I can't seem to find it.

Or can anyone recommend another lashup besides the SoftRock that is self contained besides the computer?

T

Confused...........

You want to take 455kc IF from your current reciever, and display the spectrum on the computer?
Is that it?

The softrock isn't capable of what you want to do? or just the board you have doesn't function?

Not sure what you mean I guess because I don't think anyone would spen $350 just to do that !   ???

Not quite sure what you are looking for based on this. Are you saying the softrock doesn't function and you're frustrated with it or that it didn't do the job you needed. Are you looking for an instrument with demod, or a receiver that can show the surrounding spectrum and signal levels?

The RFSPACE SDR-IQ receiver is about $500 and when run with Simon's sdr-radio.com software and connected to the USB port shows the spectrum pretty well and is a fair receiver. You can tune in mine, or others, by loading the console software and in the input section connect to remote receiver and use the search the web option to find an open receiver. It's not a stand alone receiver in that it needs the pc to function, but might do.

The softrock with powersdr has more software capability than Simon's software currently I believe, but everything is changing rapidly.

The Flex1500 is a little more expensive, but is a 5 watt QRP transceiver. It's limited to 48 khz of panoramic display.

I hope this is helpful.

Yes, this is what I meant. The SoftRock is fried.  I'm looking for a self contained unit with a ~0.1 to 30mhz RF antenna input and outputs a USB signal for computer analysis use.

The unit you suggested is it - an "SDR-IQ™ Software Defined Radio, Spectrum Analyzer and Panoramic Adapter:"

http://www.rfspace.com/RFSPACE/SDR-IQ.html

I think there is something even cheaper that did the same thing. I'll do some more searching now that I know what it's called...   Tnx.


* Basically, I'm looking to monitor my RF transmit signal on SSB or AM and adjust the system for best IMD figures.

T

HPSDR Hermes single board transceiver will do RX 10 KHz to 6 Meters. I think they are converting the interface with a network cable so it will pass more data. Supposed to come out in 2011. Also a 1/2 watt transmitter that should do -50 dBc IMD.
It will interface with Flex software which I find very accurate as an S.A.
QSR1 or Perseus also good. I see used Perseus deals come up from time to time.
Jay VD bought a used one.

Frank posted a few years ago:

"If you are planning to tap off the IF of your receiver, the Softrock is not needed. A far simpler NE602 based downconvertor will work just fine. Get the schematic of the one KE1GF built several years ago to demod DRM."

I did a search here and don't see KE1GF's circuit.  I still would consider using a downconverter, especially if I could use my old FT-102 8.2mhz? IF output.   Is that circuit still around?

The Hermes and Perseus receivers - how much are the basic RX boards and is this overkill if I just wanna do spec analysis on my TX signal?

T

http://mysite.verizon.net/sdp2/id12.html


I got's one here. It works FB.

I think Jay got his Perseus for around $500.
It will blow the doors off your FT1000D close in.  It does not have an RF amp so not as sensitive above 40 meters. The RF amp chip came out a bit after the Perseus and QSR1 went into production. A 4 leg broadband high dynamic range amp chip would fix that.

Excellent!  That link has all the info I would need to put one together. I like the idea of building it myself for better control of crapouts.  The software looks pretty sharp, like it cud give some very detailed IMD readings.

Maybe I will use my SP-600 for the 455 I.F. in this case. That RX has a good front end and is well shielded..

Should I use the free "Spectrum Laboratory" software as shown or something else?  

T

Or PowerSDR or maybe some others.

OK, then I'll do it.

I just checked the 455 kc output of the SP-600 and it's clean and strong. I normally use it into the o'scope.

I'll order the parts tmw and go from there.  This shud be a cheap way to get a quality spec analyzer going here.

TNX!

T

Ok that's what I thought......

you aren't looking for an 'actual' SDR !

just a simple mixer out of any handbook!


If you are tapping an IF off an existing reciever.... buying a whole SDR RX is a waste of money.



------------

Today I'm finishing up building my 45th SDR transciever....
I lost count on the softrock recievers... last I remember the count was 29...
Only 7 different models overall....
Man it's time for more variety!
 ;D

Wow. You must have some incredible eyes - and patience!

He must have bought a used one. New, they sell for around $1200. http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0122.html
Then, there's the SDR-14 for about $1K. http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0014.html
The SDR-1Q sells for about $499. http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0106.html
The Flex 1500 QRP software defined rig (rcvr section tunes from 10 KHz to 60 MHz) is on sale for $619 http://www.flex-radio.com/Products.aspx?topic=F1.5k_features

Softrock Lite 6.2 was $12! How can that be a waste of money for what it does!

Tom Vu........... I have one setup for 455KHz..... you want it?

Well, when I said a "whole" SDR rx, I meant an all-band rig... not a mono-band rx...
I should have clarified...   :D

Then the QS1R RX,  http://srl-llc.com/    $999.

Then a KIT  transciever..160m - 6m ...the Genesis G59  for $349 and 10 watt amp kit $129
http://www.genesisradio.com.au/

Bruce,
What do you use for a crystal frequency in the 455 KHz IF softrock. I used a color burst crystal. You really want to use a tayloe type mixer so the software takes care of images. The spectrum display will be cleaner that hanging a mixer off a wideband 455 kHz. I.F. It will work though. A few of my Racals have 6.4 KHz baseband outputs so just dumped them into a sound card.
Power SDR (Flex) is very accurate. It tracks the output of my HP8640B within a dB.

The color burst is easy to get , works fine...
Also 3.7mhz
As far as easy to get, readily available.... they are the best choice for 455kc IF.
Leaves about 8khz from 455kc to center F.


Can use 1800khz xtal as well, connect the "4x" jumper, instead of "8x" but leaves only 5khz to center F

3640kc is a readily available too... but that lands 455khz as the center freq, which you need to avoid.

3.6864mhz  another standard xtal works , but only leaves 5khz to the Center F.

Doesn't really matter, as long as your soundcard has enough bandwidth to land 455kz in one half or the other of the display. ( above or below center F).

If your soundcard is 96 or 192khz,  then 3.859mhz is good.

Puts 455khz   27kc from center

Of course...
If you want to get REALLY fancy,
You do away with the crystal, by a "QRP2000" ...

Get rid of all the frequency selective bits at the input of SR ( make it cap input?)
And you can use whatever frequency you want for the LO ( center freq).

AND
use the same SR IF setup for up to about 10mhz

Looks like a lot of options. Tnx for the ideas.

Yes, Buddly, I would like to give the SoftRock another go if you have a working 455 kc board.  That would be great - and the easiest path of least resistance right now.  Let me know what $ to PayPal you or maybe you can use some parts in swap?

I'll jump in the water with this simple lashup and it might wet my whistle to enter the wild whirl of SDR in a bigger way later.

It would be kinda cool to try a Perseus SDR or similar high end RX that could work even better than the FT-1000D when working very weak DX on 75/40M.  Though, I don't know how I could possibly hear any better into Eur, Steve... cough cough...  ;)

T

Even the best synthesizer is a slop generator compared to a crystal oscillator.
Perseus, QSR1 and HPSDR direct sample receivers eliminate the neeed for a synthesizer.
ONTOH you take an R390A and hot rod it with better mixers and that would be a cool shootout with all those tracking filters. The R390A still had one of the cleanest local oscillators known to man.
Then take a direct sample RX and add a high performance tracking preselector ahead of it and try again.

Frank,

The thing is I rarely have problems with adjacent strong signals taking out my receiver from overload. It is usually caused by IMD SPLATTER on frequency - and no receiver, no matter how selective will eliminate on-channel crud.

In addition, the next biggest problem is atmospheric noise generated by propagated T-storms, rain static, power lines, etc. I understand no DSP system will help this problem either. (well, maybe power line pulse-type problems can be reduced)

So what's left is back to adjacent channel overload, and usually the f-b and high angle suppression of the antennas keep this problem at bay most of the time on 75/40M.

As for synthesizer noise, the band noise is MUCH louder and covers up any residual syn noise by at least 10db. esp on 160-40M. I just checked and even on 20M when I connect the antenna the noise comes up about 6db higher than the syn noise.  At night on 75/40M the band  noise can be 20db louder.

So my expectations would be low regarding an SDR being a BIG improvement over the FT-1000D in the real whirl of band action.  What do you think?  [caw mawn]

T

IMD splatter sounds worse when you have close in synthesizer phase noise
Then you have those nice vertical filter skirts that don't ring

I'm being as anal as "you can work DX with a low dipole"

you should join some SDR groups, and read about it..

Lot's of people disagree with that statement.

I don't own an ft-1000d, so I can't comment.

 

All I'm saying is that my expectations are low. That way I won't be disappointed.

There will come a time when I try the latest top-of the-line SDR receiver against the FT-1000D. After all, the 1000D is old 1980's technology, about 25+ years ago.

Though, hope I don't sound immodest, but I hear these guys with the latest SDR radios working weak DX on and not one in the states can out-hear me into Eur on 75 and 40M. I've listened to many holding court and hear what they can hear and what they can't. Of course antennas help, but some of these guys have Yagis too.  I'm just not convinced, for the reasons I gave two posts ago, that I will uncover a weaker, lower layer of stns as a result of using an SDR.  

But, again, I do intend to try one in the near future and will let ya know the A/B results. I will certainly run them side by side for a while.

Maybe Frank will bring over his latest SDR config for an evening and we can give it a go. I can plug it in right in place of the redundant SP-600 receiver.


T

This is always an interesting chart to look at:
http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

Tom,
Ran that race. The RA6830 has similar close in performance to the FT1000D. Wider out it is better. When there is close in splatter I can fire up the HPSDR and take it right out due to filter performance and lack of phase noise.
My Hot rod racal is better but still the phase noise thing is a big plus in traffic.
99% of the time I fire up a Racal and go because I don't need a computer.
I suspect in the near future A rig will come out self contained with a good preselector into a DDC RX  and DUC TX. The parts count in the rig will drop like a rock. All the filters will go away. You look at the new FTDX 5000 and they still have all the analog stuff up front with the SDR off the IF. You can get the same performance with a Softrock off an IF. The rig is giant and I bet has a matching price tag.

When you  have close in performance above 85 dB you are getting into real performance. Then you can tell the difference between real splatter and synthesizer crud faking you into thinking your neighbor has splatter.

It's not cheap, but it's nice.  http://www.signalhound.com/

Interesting comparisons.

Yes, I see they rate the receivers' order by "Dynamic Range Narrow Spaced (dB)"  and the 1000D is only about 69db. That is not great. Though the widespaced spec is 90db, which is good.

I can see why this could be a help when a LOUD station comes in close, even if it is clean.

Yes, the new Yaesu 5000 ($10K+?) is impressive as well as the K3 ElectroCraft.

I will need TWO receievrs to maintain the dual diversity RX system I use, so the cost will be X2. That dual diversity - I've gotten to rely on it quite a bit.

My interest is growing to look into the higher narrow dynamic range aspects of SDR.... ;)

T

A mere bags of shells. 200 watt transceiver with two fully independent receivers. You can, of course, price it up with additional accessories. And, lots of knobs and buttons  http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamhf/0355vlrg.jpg for those that can't do without. It's ever cheaper then the Icom IC-7700.
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamhf/0355.html

The 5000 is QUITE the radio!

The receiver looks hot.  Lots of output jacks on the back for stuff.  Rotator control outputs.  Looks like an analog S-meter - good.  Lots of knobs instead of menus for the common functions.  6M included.


Things I see lacking:

1) Only -31db IMD for 200w out. I wud think they wud be better by this time, but they do have the class A 75w mode for -75db? 3rd.

2) A bigger bandscope wud be nice, like the Icoms have.

3) Maybe they can be had for <$2500 used in a few years. But when the serious SDRs start coming out by Kenwood, etc., they could drop like a rock. Just like the AM boatanchors did in the early 70's.

I wonder what happened to the 400w Yaesu? It looked like a big hit option a few years back.

T

They're still offering the FTDX9000MP (400 watt unit). Base price is a mere $11K.

(http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamhf/9000mp.jpg)

Add a few bells and whistles, and you're up to about $14K. http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamhf/0900.html

And, if you like razzle dazzle type of equipment, this might be coming soon, maybe:

(http://k9zw.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/hilberling_2010.jpg)

Serious SDR's coming from the big three, I probably wouldn't hold my breath for something anytime soon.

Tom,
They had a 5000 on the bench at W1AW last winter. The displays are a bit small. So many knobs would make your head spin.

HPSDR guys have a diversity set up with a pair of Mercury receivers.
They are also about to start selling the new interface because USB2 is running out of bandwidth.

Frank,

I spent a few hours watching the videos below and some on YouTube of the Flex 5000. Also watched a bunch on the Perseus receiver.

I'm feeling inadequate, depressed and way behind the times...   ;D


Check out the videos:
http://www.flexradio.com//Products.aspx?topic=videos


Comparisons of Flex models and specs:
http://www.flexradio.com//Products.aspx?topic=SDR_Feature_Matrix

That Flex 5000 has incredible features I never knew about.  Did you check out the ability to do dual diversity AND mix the amplitude and phase of the two antennas to provide nulls, etc?  Dual receivers. Also the ability to control three different linears using three coax outputs and three PTT's with a mouse click?  You could switch bands with full QRO in seconds. It takes me 5 minutes to do it now.  I could see having a dedicated amp/antenna system for 75, 40 and maybe 20M.

The Flex filters are unreal. No ringing and going down to 13 hz on CW.

The only thing I don't like about the Flex is the poor -27db 3rd IMD figure. I think they addressed it sometime since an ARRL test, but it would be nice if they offered a class A clean output, even if it was only 20 watts with that 100w output set of class B finals. * Update: I see their own literature now shows it at -34db worse cae... that's decent.

I'm looking at my station and scratching my head. No wonder the guys out there are smug running the Flex.


I'll probably wait and play with the SoftRock that Buddly is sending, but maybe the Flexes will come down in price used if they come out with something new.


I would even consider the 5W Flex 1500, but the RX is not as good as the 5000.

I was looking at the Persus software spec analyzer waterfall. FB receiver. That appears to show a great way to see bandwidth. There's some YouTube videos of it in operation on the SW bands. I wondered about the higher noise floor and the lower sensitivity, but they do have a preamp available.

I'll take a look at the Mercury receivers.

Frank, what issues do you have with the Flex 5000, besides price?

T

The only difference between Perseus and mercury are the Perseus has the older 80 MS A/D while the mercury has the 125 MS A/D. Both are 16 bit. Also the preamplifier chip was out by the time Mercury was designed. I think the 170 mS part may be out and I hear talk of a 250ms A/D but each will require more FPGA horse power.
QSR1 has the 125 ms A/D but not the preamp.  It came out between perseus and mercury
Jay uses his Perseus all the time and likes it.
I would not waste my time with anything Flex unless you can get it cheap.
Stick with the FT1000D for now and maybe pick up something to play with as a second RX. I bet in a year or two there will be some new interesting stuff coming out that won't require a computer control.
The FTDX5000 has a 40.455 MHz first IF, 455 KHz second IF into the DSP.
Racal RA6830 with my homebrew SDR interface. 40.455 MHz first IF, 455 KHz second IF into Tayloe I/Q to computer.
As you see this is just a DSP hanging off a common MIL analog RX configuration with a fancy front panel display

Yes, we are, and we have good reason  ;D
I don't know if you saw this on their web site, but it's a feature comparison matrix: http://www.flex-radio.com/Products.aspx?topic=SDR_Feature_Matrix
Once in a while, a Flex will pop up on Ebay for sale or on their e-mail reflector but generally the price is only a few hundred below the actual new selling price. They hold their value very well. I doubt you'll see any real price cutting (although they are on sale now).  There's no reason to. For contesting, DXing, and digital work, the Flex is hard to beat as far as versatility and flexibility on the bands. You really need to play with one to get the "feel".

Hi Tom

Dont forget the Winradio Excalibur G31DDC,  its a generation ahead of the Perseus.
It can display the whole  HF spectrum to 50mhz, direct sampled with a 1.5khz resolution. It then can further sample the spectrum over a 2mhz slice down to millihertz resolution. I just ordered mine.

It uses a 16bit AD converter for the price its bargain. You can also use it with Linrad.

One added bonus is that it has a 100db dynamic range as a spectrum analyzer. Monitoring for things like IMD under dynamic voice conditions will be easy with such a high dynamic range. Its like having a real time spectrum analyzer rather than a swept instrument with its associated delays.

Peter Hart in the RSGB review said that it blew his 100db HP spectrum analyzer away. If you want the RSGB review I am happy to send it to you. Peter Hart also commented that its his new No1 on his receiver performance ranking table, the phase noise performance is very impressive. Download the software from Winradio and have a play you will soon get an idea how it  would play with with the receiver attached.

http://www.winradio.com/home/g31ddc.htm

73
Craig
VK3HE

Hi

Forgot to add  that there  are few demonstration videos on Youtube. I am not associated in anyway with Winradio.
I have just come up through the ranks playing with SDR receivers from the softrocks, SDR-IQ, Perseus  and one or two others.

All the SDR receiver manufacturers are not really taking their SDR products for use as spectrum analyzers seriously. Most of these products lack basic spectrum analyzer features like smart markers,  the ability to define IMD masks, occupied bandwidth, adjacent channel power and many other bread and butter features that RF gurus need. You typical see these spectrum analyzer features in the commercial SDR receivers like the IZT products which cost a fortune.

You can see the advanced spectrum analyzer features that are standard with the IZT products
http://www.izt-labs.de/izt/en/products/receiver/receiver.html
Anyway I dont have $20K for  the above receivers, so the Winradio will have to do. I will just hope that some ham
will write a suitable spectrum analyzer software suite one day.

I am waiting patiently for a SDR transmitter as well.

73
Craig

Tom,
My issue with the Flex is the DDS source. It is the weak link. Direct sample has one crystal oscillator. It doesn't get any cleaner than that. SDR does need a good preselector.
I operated the Flex 5000 at W1AW. They have some real high levels of BCI near W1AW and the RX was getting trashed big time.
I think Softrock hanging off an IF is a great start to get used to the software. The Flex Power SDR is great. Remember the softrock doesn't need much signal to work 10 to 100 microvolts should be more than enough.
HPSDR software changes a few times a year. I think Perseus also upgrades every few months.
HPSDR diversity has some modes where you can play with phase but I have not played with any of it yet. I need to get the new interface module but can't afford afford until I recover from the truck issue.
HPSDR guys have a Spectrum analyzer in the works.

My Genesis G59b hears way better than QS1R. ( by over 18db on 10 meters)
That's still with no preamp/preselector.
Just mixer gain I guess..

These are really cool little kits..

The software USED to be power sdr.... re-written for these radios.

It uses an Si570 for the LO .. Not enough noise from the Osc to worry about for me.
I get more interference from my computer disk-drive.


QS1R
Phil keeps promising a front end board for the QS1R along with it's companion transmitter...
I really don't think its going to happen..
for nearly 3 years, he's been saying "in a few months..."

Right now I'm very content playing QRP digital modes...
Working Australia, So. Africa, etc.. on a regular basis on 40 meters JT65a at 5 watts or less.

Thanks for the info Craig.

You have my interest up. Looks like it costs about $600 and my Dell 3000 is all set with USB 2.0 and dual core.

The sensitvity looks good.

What are the close-in and wide dynamic range db numbers?  I see 107 db, but not sure which is which.

I see it has "AMS" mode which means AM sync det?

I like the look of the software and want the waterfall feature which it has.

Their specs look impressive:
http://www.winradio.com/home/g31ddc-s.htm

Let me axe my lawyer... ;) What do you think, Frank?   Is this a good way for me to start out with a high end RX?   The Perseus is almost twice the price.  How about the 100ms sampling rate?

A good technical writeup:
http://www.winradio.com/pdf/g31ddc-review-radcom.pdf

T

not sure I know what 100 ms rate means. hardware looks good but I don't know anything about the software
I see a price of 650 pounds and what about VAT
QSR1 might be cheaper.
Talk to Jay but I think a used perseus is still a good deal.
I would start with the softrock and get used to it.

650 pounds is $1004.00 today

We don't pay VAT in the USA !


The Winradio Excalibur  is $899.99 in the USA, plus shipping..

https://robogroup.com/winradio/cgi-bin/wrshop.cgi?receivers!Receivers

Too bad it stops short of covering 6 meters.... because of the 100Ms clock sample rate...

HPSDR is going away from USB2 to gain more horsepower to monitor broader spectrum. New board will be sold next month. I read the Hermes transceiver will have the same new interface.
QSR1 I think Phil is overloaded supporting what he has. This could be the reason he has not produced more hardware.  Too bad he he went off on his own rather than stick with HPSDR. I think he wanted to make some money for all his hard work.

Hi Tom,

I have an SDR-IQ receiver and I really have enjoyed using it.  It makes a great "fish finder" for looking at a panoramic display of an entire band segment or frequency range. I'm using it with the IF-2000 interface that plugs into the FT-2000.  The software that comes with it has some limitations and I understand that it will work with several other software versions, however, I haven't tried them.  It really depends on what kind of application you have and how accurate the measurements you are after need to be.  I'm not sure that it is necessarily a good tool for viewing your own signal.  Obviously, some padding/attenuation is necessary to keep from overloading the receiver.  This might also be a problem when viewing other signals, however, I have found that it is useful to compare signals and get relative bandwidth and quality indications.  I can't honestly say that I'm convinced that the SDR will replace a high dollar Tek or HP spectrum analyzer, but it is certainly a useful addition to the station.

73,  Jack, W9GT

Jack,

The author of the article below thought the WinRadio G31DDC for spec analyzer use was even better than a high-end HP spec analyzer. That's what got my attention. But now that I see it cost $900, I'm hesitant to proceed. For that kind of money I'd rather pay more and get a complete TX/RX system. 

http://www.winradio.com/pdf/g31ddc-review-radcom.pdf

It seems the Flex is the best thought-out package for features and integration. Otherwise you will be nickeled and dimed and doing a lot of R&D to duplicate this with the separate various RX and TX modules out there. Then what do you do for software to approach the features of Flex?   Too bad the Flex didn't have a Perseus or equivalent as a receiver.

My short term goal is to put together a spec analyzer that will tell me on the fly how my ssb or AM rig looks for bandwidth. I want to be able to adjust the amplifier loading, bias, drive and tuning to find the IMD sweet spots. Also, I want to explore the possibility of improving my receiving capability when working weak DX. (In place of the FT-1000D's receiver.) 

I'm still thinking about what to do and will try the SoftRock Lite while I learn more and decide.

BTW, why would a ham want to monitor such a large spectrum? (50 mhz at a time, etc)  One band at a time is plenty or we will become scanner junkies who sit around watching and hearing the whirl go by.  I could give a damn if Radio Thailand signed on or was even audible today.. ;D

I often wondered why after calling CQ on 40M there is a huge following within seconds. These guys have bandscopes and plaster the web with spots. You can't even belch without people going back days later, pulling out the spectrum recording and posting it... HA! It's like walking in downtown NYC with big bro cameras everywhere.  Things have changed.

T

Exactly. Your antennas will make more of a difference than any new receiver. The reality is that for all the talk about dynamic range, close-in blah, blah, blah, spurious free spew, spew, spew, none of that makes any difference on 99 percent of the contacts you'll make. Most of it is driven by the weak signal CW guys working in contests.

If any of those pseudo-elitists had any real scrote, they would build their own receivers specialized for that purpose. But since most of them are elitists in name only and have far less technical competency than they think they do, most will never build their own RX. Instead, they will P&M about why Yaecomwood doesn't cater to 0.001 percent of the market. Yea, that's a good business model.

I think I'm correct in saying that Tom's SA requirement is to measure IMD. Instantaneous wide band coverage is not required for this close in measurement.

He told me 2 years ago that the RFFE1 front end board was ready to go....
He was waiting until he thought he could sell enough of them to gain back the cost....
I think he waited too long.

Though I  wouldn't want to foot the bill for 100 units and hope for my money back either ( right around $27k )

I think the same is true for the transmitter.

I'm going to look at HPSDR again... I wouldn't be supprised if I get going with it in a couple months...

I think Tom can do what he wants with the softrock..


There are also USB PC dual channel oscilloscopes that are pretty cool too that do SA as well for under $400.

Hey Tom....

Got any telescope stuff you want to trade for a QS1R  ?

Bruce,
Wait for the Hermes transceiver. The set up with the Atlas mother board adds up to more than a QSR1.

Yo Bruce,

I have a set of 10" Newtonian binoculars, 2" eyepieces, aluminum tubes, rollaway alum mount, with pristine, matched mirrors. They are worth at least $2.5K or more.  I wud probably trade them for a Flex... :-)  The big 22" scope is in an observatory and not movable without mucho effort.

How much $ for the QS1R?

In the meantime, I will be trying a converter off the SP-600 to get me going for a while.

I'll take a look at the Herpes transceiver, Frank. I think eventually I'll at least do a dual diversity RX next to the FT-1000D TX.


** BTW, Brandon/KF5IIA tells me he is kicking major ass down there with his new pair of phased dipoles. Seeing 25-30db f-b and big reports.   Best antenna anyone can put up short of a rotary Yagi for 75M.

T

Well, when you include Penny it does...
But I think it was a few hundred LESS than QS1R without the transmitter...maybe not

Hermes looks like it's a LONG way off from what I read this morning...
The comment " ... looks like Hermes for 2011 is a good possibility.." ( or words very similar to that)
Lead me to believe there's a good chance it won't make it until 2012 ...

Maybe wrong there...

In regards to the Sherwood receiver dynamic range list:

I've always been amazed to see the humble stock Atlas 350XL mid-to-late 1970's transceiver has held up near the top of the list.

Atlas 350 is a very good rig and I don't think it has a synthesizer.
TR7 is another but it has a bit much phase noise.
my last homebrew had 96 dB dynamic range but the synthesizer was not that great. I would love to drop a HP8640B cavity in with a string of dividers as an LO.

I also see the FT5000 now tops the list.

Steve they do it with multiple first IF filter bandwidths and very high dynamic range mixers. Yup kicks butt but takes a lot of hardware. It seems to have the best of both worlds. Tight filters in the first IF help a lot since the selectivity is closer to the antenna. I trust Sherwood's numbers.
I wonder how it would stack up against the Cubic R3150 A similar design but 20 years old.

Along with the Atlas, the old Kenwood TS-830 is right up there. Seems like those non-general coverage down-conversion (usually to a 8 or 9 MHz IF) type receivers do better than the general coverage up-conversion rigs. I'd bet with a better front-end and a tight first filter in the 8/9 MHz IF, rigs like the 830, FT-102,etc would be most rigs 10-20 years newer. You could spend a lot of money modifying a cheap old TS-830 before you would get to the price tag of most of these newer radios. Inrad sells 250 Hz filters for the FT-102. Hmmm.

Yes the 350-XL, TS-830 and very similar TS-820 being ham-band-only rigs were able to rely on single-conversion, a big help.  The 350-XL used a 5595 kHz i.f. and the -820 was 8830 kHz.  The 350-XL used a double-balanced diode mixer.

For the l.o., the 350-XL used a permeability–tuned oscillator mixed with a crystal oscillator.  The TS-820/830 used a capacitor–tuned (I think) oscillator mixed within a phase-locked loop with a 500 kHz reference, the vco output for the l.o.

Steve, I think many of those old rigs had a 500 KHz wide first IF to fit the whole band through. I built a tracking filter tuned with VVC diodes for my old SB303 I geared a 10 turn pot off the main tuning to tune it. I was able to increase the dynamic range of that radio to 85 dB up from the 60s. The synthesizer degraded many a receiver design.
Up conversion eliminated the need for a tuned preselector.

TR7 did the same thing Tom.
I've always wondered how far you could hot rod an R390A

The first IF filter in the FT-102 (a roofing filter before they were called that) is 15 kHz. They used this to accommodate the FM mode. Since it's at 8.2 MHz, I don't see why it couldn't be narrowed down to 3 kHz (if you want to  accommodate SSB, less for CW). Inrad makes a more narrow roofing filter (70 MHz) for the FT-1000. It improves the close-in (less than 20 kHz) up to 10 dB. Of course, once you get the spacing inside the new filter width (4-5 kHz), you're right back where you started. But for most SSB operation, you probably won't have two strong signals (in this case about 10 dB-over-9) within that 4-5 kHz range (except for contests). If you did have two stations that close, you're more likely to get interference directly from their signal (splatter or just legitimate signal bandwidth) that is stronger than the IMD.

The 350-XL... great rig...  NO TUBES !
 ;D

I thought the FT102 used dual gate mixers? Yes with the option to switch in a tighter filter performance would go up. I don't think it has a synthesizer so you could get lucky. I yanked the dual gate mixers out of my SB303 and build discrete DBMs with 1N5711s.

Yep the TR-7/R-7 l.o. scheme is essentially the same as the TS-820, however the TR-7 is up-conversion/double-conversion.  

The HW-101 and the SB-series used a crystal 1st l.o. and the 500 kHz wide 1st i.f., like the R390 but did not have the tracking filters like the -390.  The HW-101 is not on the Sherwood list but if it was would probably be at the bottom, fairing worse than the SB-303 that is on the list.  The scheme was very good for increased frequency stability for SSB.

(Yikes we’ve hi-jacked the thread.  Happy New Year everyone.)

TS-830 is dual conversion. 820 and 820S were single conversion.

There's no such thing as hijacking a thread, in my book. Info is info and activity is a good thang, no matter who's thread it gets posted in. Post away, even about the type of electric toothbrush you like... ;D

Yes, I remember the Atlas 350 well from the late 70's. Worked on a few. I didn't realize they were that good until seeing the listing.

The FT-102 has very similar circuitry to the FT-1000D. Much of the same actual parts too.

Steve, I tried a roofing filter for the FT-1000D back about 6 years ago. At the time they only had 2.4 kc 70 mhz roofing filters and it killed the 2.8khz filter bandwidth in the last IF.  Both Chuck and I took them out. Evidently  they have them wider now, but the poor FT-1000D dynamic range is close in, (2kc away) so maybe the 4-5kc wide is too wide to help that.  The wider dynamic range is already pretty good, at 90db, IIRC.

T

I'm pretty sure they never had a 2.4 kHz filter for the FT-1000. To build such a filter at 70 MHz would be difficult and quite expensive.

Steve,

Whatever Chuck and I had in there was too narrow and brought the final ssb bandwidth back down to 2.4kc again. I sent it back for that reason and they agreed - and took it back. So dunno what to say.  Or wait a second - maybe the filter was an 8.2mhz  back to back second filter in series with the first? I'd have to check.
But it was called a "roofing filter."

Anyway, another idea:  I once met a Japanese ham at Dayton who told me the bands were so congested with loud signals in Tokyo, it was bedlam for RX IMD even with good close in dynamic range specs. The solution was to put in a pair of CRYSTALS as a bandpass filter at the receiver RF input. For example, on 3.790 they would use a 3.788.5 and 3.791.5 set of xtals to give a brick wall 3kc bandwidth before the RF even got to the mixer or RF stage, if used.   He said they had many pairs and covered the various favorite freqs with a switching scheme. Or use +- 1 kc for more narrow work.

I could see that working on the small 10kc 75M DX window and even on 40M if kept to a small band of freqs.


Does this sound viable?   Some kind of class A pig device could be used in the matching 50 ohm interface to keep IMD way down in the xtal circuit.  I'd be game to try somewthing like that ahead of the TR relay to the RX in the FT-1000D.  I wonder what dynamic range could be attained with a simple add-on like that?

See ya on 75M later.

T

My Hot Rod Racal does about 85 dB at 2 KHz. The 6830 synthesizer goes through -90 dBc at around 2 KHz. I had to replace both first IF filters with 8 KHz. BW units from a 6790 VLF radio. Then change out the second mixer module with one from a D.F. radio. They used a RAY 6 DBM mixer in that module with plus 13 dBM LO.
Then had to add a PAS3 attenuator to get AGC action in the first IF. I cascaded the 455 KHz filter module with modules using collins mechanical filters. They are much shorter than the crystal filters so could stack them for better skirts and ultimate rejection of around 100 dB. Dynamic range at 10 KHz is around 100 dB
The HPSDR and hot rod run neck and neck when conditions suck with high noise. The Hot Rod always beat the Softrock style IF set up under high noise conditions.

Wow Tom, that is hard core. You could do that if you had a box of crystals.
Filter loss would be 2 to 3 dB for a pair of crystals. There are tons of filter design articles out there.

Has this thread really gone to sleep?

Frank, only you would consider hot-rodding a R390A.

Tom,
The mixers are a weak link in the R390A.
I once bought a beautiful R392 from Fair Radio but let it go when I got into the Racals. I had a nice R390A with meters that I almost got into.
I think there is performance hiding in that radio.

No doubt.

I went through my files on Atlas and found that I have 2 sales brochures for the 350XL; one from April 1977 and one from April 1978.  I would have picked up both at Dayton.  One of the changes in the '78 brochure was to include a little touting on the receiver design and drop another paragraph.

One interesting note on the block diagram - the receiver has an audio noise limiter in addition to the i.f. noise blanker, a wise idea.  Lester Earnshaw?

So Mr. Tommy Vu, what u gonna due?

Just for kicks I Googled Lester.  I saw him speak at one of those wonderful technical forums at Dayton in the late 1970's.  If I recall correctly, he did work for Swan and Racal also.  I never knew that he was a novelist.

From pacificislandbooks.com:
"In The Bonds of Love by Lester Earnshaw. ISBN 1877161640. Published by Hazard Press. Recommended retail price $15.95.
Brian And Ailsa’s married life has not been easy, and Brian’s entrepreneurial ambitions have driven Ailsa to take their two daughters back to her home in the Orkney Islands. The bonds of love, however, draw Ailsa back. Life is hard on the Warkworth property Brian has bought, but Brian and Ailsa are united in their determination to make a success of their venture into chicken farming. Events, however, conspire to drive the couple apart as they try to cope with the dramatization of one of their daughters, accidental losses of stock on their smallholding, and Ailsa’s growing need for autonomy. Something has to give – and it does when Ailsa nearly loses her life.
Where other romantic stories end at the alter, In the Bonds of Love explores the reality of two strong-minded people learning to preserve their mutual love and respect in an unforgiving world.

Lester Earnshaw was born in Hawke’s Bay, and grew up in New Zealand. Since 1961 he and his family have lived in the United States. He is the author of Olivia (1995) and The Radio Man (1997). Soft cover, 300 pages. Published in 2000."

From Amazon.com – on his “The Radio Man” book:
"Editorial Reviews
Product Description
Larry La Salle returns to New Zealand after wartime service to find his experiences constitute an unbridgeable gap between him and his home town. The return to civilian life is made more difficult by his now being a radio/radar technician in a country with no electronics industry. Emigration to America seems his best option, but it may take years to obtain a visa. Consequently he sets up his own radio business in Warkworth and gradually becomes more and more involved with the characters of the town, including a series of its women. As years pass, his American dream and the memory of his wartime romance become ever more remote. Lester Earnshaw s chronicle of The Radio Man is peopled by engaging characters and is a sympathetic examination of the dislocation felt by many New Zealanders who returned to a country they loved. Also by Lester Earnshaw - Olivia.

About the Author
Lester Earnshaw was born in Hawke's Bay, New Zealand. He served in the Royal New Zealand Air Force from 1941 to 1946 in Britain, Africa and Italy. In 1961, he and his family moved to the United States where he founded Kachina Communications Inc., a radio communications manufacturing company. Lester Earnshaw lives in Sedona, Arizona. His first novel, Olivia, was published in 1995. "

From hammarlund.info:

"The HQ-215, the first and only solid-state receiver produced by Hammarlund, was  designed in the mid-1960’s by Lester Earnshaw, but did not go into production until 1967. This amateur-band receiver was compatible with the Collins “S” line units which employed the same frequency generating scheme, thus making it capable of functioning in the transceive mode with the Collins transmitter. This receiver was produced in limited quantities."

Interesting article in QEX this month...

Big FPGA / ADC / DAC for a neat little transceiver.

Also, an article about using an ethernet connection for audio for SDRs in replace of a soundcard.

 

The problem with that is the procedures used are all over the map over decades and its impossible to do an accurate comparison. Plus several people did the testing whichs adds another layer of uncertainty. I really dont put much faith in those reviews which started back in the 70's when he was peddling his R-4C kits.

I ran my own lab tests at work in the late 80's to early 90's of a TS-930 plus stock and several levels of mods in a TS-940 and got far better numbers than Sherwood. So did others in the YCCC testing a wide range of rigs especially to contest standards.....some were worse.

Jays tests were AM only and also stopped at 20M which falls way short of examining a receiver.

Yes, altho a R-390A is about the pinnacle it can still be improved but Id rather put the effort into a 75A4 which is more usefull for ham activity. Instead of tearing into my already highly modded A4 I just might do it to a virgin A3 with Pullen mixers, product detector, more filters, AGC, gain equalizaton and other fine tuning. After all its only an old Collins ::)

Carl

I was surprised to see the 75S3B Collins RX so far down the list with the deaf stuff.  I once owned one myself and finally sold it. It looked pretty, but I could never understand why I couldn't hear well with it. The same for the Yaesu 101. Not to be cornfused with the FB FT-102.

Tom, I'm going to try a simple 455kc down converter into the computer and see if that suits my spec analyzer needs.  Feature-wise, I still think the Flex 5000 would be a wise choice to replace my FT-1000D having two RX capability and fully integrated TX/RX software. It is also a proven design in the field.  I could always sell my FT-1000D and four AM modified FT-102's to defray the cost and feel better about it.

I hear Gary, WA1OXT, on with his Flex 5000 almost every night lately working 75M DX and talking with the ESSB guys. Then he hits AM for a while. He sounds like he's having a ball and praises the Flex every chance he gets.  He sounds possibly the best of any station on the band, audio-wise. I listened to his bandwidth last night and it was tight. He mentions he is running a pair of 8877's in his station descriptions, so that is a hefty signal to tame.

Still, when Frank says to wait two years and look for a better SDR rig to come out that doesn't use a computer, I wonder.  It's like the 90's when we all waited for the next computer design and were never able to jump in. However, there finally came a time when computers were hihi FB and the cost was down to $500. It took a decade or so to do it. The SDR revolution still has time to go yet before the prices crash, the Asians take over manufacturing and we start to level off in innnovations for a while.  No one wants to buy a $3K wonder and see it valued at $1000 a couple of years later.

T

Bruce,
My QEX has not arrived yet but it sure sounds like Hermes.
A couple guys out there are messing with H mode mixers that do close to plus 50 IP3. Up at that level the issue becomes the roofing filter ability to handle power. My last homebrew I used a six section LC filter with a 3 dB bandwidth of about 100 KHz. Then after a bit of gain I used a KVG 41 MHz roofing filter 7 KHz wide. Still close in power can damage the crystals. Some guys in the UK use two filters connected with quad hybrids to split the power between two parallel matched filters phased 90 degrees apart.
Still all this cool analog stuff is limited by synthesizer phase noise for close in performance.
I'm not sure what is inside the 5000 for an LO source maybe a combination of DDS and PLL which seems to be the hot set up these days.

When I ordered my Flex 5000 back in 2007 I paid a lower price then what they are selling for today.  If one hits the used market for sale, asking price is generally within $100-$200 of what I paid for mine new. And, over the years, they developed two lower price points (3000 and 1500) for those that didn't need all the 5000 bells and whistles. The beauty of the Flex 5000 or 3000/1500 is that, although the hardware stays the same, the software is constantly being improved to add additional features and functionality. Integrating the computer into the shack is not new. DX'ers and contesters have been doing it for years. VHF and UHF operators find it an invaluable tool. If you operate any of the digital modes, it's part of your equipment lineup. The computer, in all its variations, is really now an integral part of the shack equipment lineup. Most of the big box ham manufacturers only in recent years have provided the ability in some of their equipment to download updated firmware to correct bugs in equipment software but very little of that is new feature and functionality. When the front panel knob is silk-screened or stamped "function A" it's hard to change the function to something else unless they also supply "sticky labels" along with the software. Don't have that problem with software defined radios.

Tom, I think that would be the best thing to do for now. The cost is reasonable (cheap) for the hardware and the software (many types) are free. Once you get a feel for what can be done, you can purchase the more expensive items later when you know exactly what it is you wan to do. This is why I bought the Softrock so many years ago. It was a cheap introduction to the concept and the software.

I also agree about the "waiting" factor. Wait! There will be a faster, smaller computer. Wait! Cars will get better mileage. Wait! The cost will go down. Waiting can be a good thing, but there are ways to try something now for the right price.

Bill KA8WTK

The eHam reviews are interesting. Most are "religious" rantings. Some are informative. I see many suggest getting a late model computer, though my older dual core machine may work OK according to some.

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/6626



But READ BELOW - here is a technical guy who thinks the Flex HARDWARE is flawed and the firewire interface will be obsolete in < 5 years.    Yes, software can be updated indefinately, but the hardware will always evolve too and a Flex 5000 will probably seem like a dinosaur in ten years compared to the latest and greatest.

I don't really think there is a solution. If we all knew what technology would be favored in the future, we'd be doing it now. There will always be guys who bought the leading edge stuff two years ago, dumping it for the latest. But, Pete, it looks like you made a good decision in 2007 with an SDR (Flex 5000) that has stayed mainstream and held its value well.   I did the same thing with my used FT-1000D purchase 10 years ago. Some rigs did not do so well, like the Globe 500C knockout... :-)



* W0FMS said in an eHAM review:

This review is based on my experience with a club station 5000A. The club has had the radio over a year I only fixed it and used it for a few QSOs.

We lost the Firewire driver on the computer (do not know how) and I therefore re-installed it like it was a new radio. VAC isn't working either and I still haven't reinstalled it.

Overall, the Flex-5000A is more polished (as you'd expect it to be for the price) than my personal -1500. Much more. So much I decided to not get rid of the -1500 like I was about to do.

Once I did get it working again, most of the comments of "beauty of brickwall filters" etc you will see here still apply. DSP is a wonderful thing and certainly that applies to these radios.

There are still major issues with the core design of all of the Flex radios, though. And I still take it that most of the praise for these are "religiously" based. And what I find odd is that truely speaking only the SDR-1000 followed that religion exactly.

What do I mean? To the religion of "Flex" the Moore's law applies -- I.E. the computer is disposable (though a new $800-1000 computer is always recommended and usually AMD on top of that since they clearly work better than Intels of higher capability) but the radio needs never be replaced.

If you were to put in a small DSP (and not have all of the computer/latency/Real time issues then not be a problem like they are for the FLEX line) then you'd need to throw out the radio because of the "old DSP".

Well, there are two problems with that. One: a old DSP can be programmed to bypass. Or a card could have been designed for these radios with the CODEC (A/D D/A) and DSP on it seperate from the RF and that could have been upgradable.
The second problem is that due to legatimate usability factors, the CODEC (soundcard literally) is now built into the radios and is not upgradable. It doesn't take much research to determine that the TI codecs used are high end audio card components (or even IPod chips). They will go obsolete just like a DSP would have... maybe sooner.

So I don't really understand the whole rationale? The low dynamic range of today's CODECS (yes 24-bits is low compared to real communications standards) will still be replaced.. meaning the radio will be obsolete.

This is I guess why I tend to think that Flex Radios are more of a religion. The 5000 works well.. much better than the 1500 (which I've finally determined to be a still unstable sound driver archetecture which is promised to be fixed-- it's better in 2.0.8 than it was in 2.0.7)... but over all the "Moores law" argument that FRS uses to justify having Windows act as a RTOS (which it will never be) by throwing fast computing hardware at the problem (when at HF bandwidths early 1990 DSPs had more than enough horsepower to handle ham modes) really is more of a "religion" than fact.

I'm sorry to burst the bubble of the Flexers but really the core engineering designs of these radios are fundamentally flawed.

Having said that, the 5000A is as refined as you can get with the archetecture and really was pleasant on the air once I got it working again.

VHF has such poor sensitivity as to be unusable on the 5000 and even the "improved" 1500 it clearly is the least sensitive 6m rig I own.

This is why I give it a 4 (and the 1500 still a 3). Compared with the Kachina of 10 years ago, however it is a step backwards in technology.

The firewire interfaces are starting to turn obsolete as well.. I imagine in <5 years it may be difficult to find support for this interface.

Also if you criticise Flex you will quicky notice that your posts no longer appear on their reflectors. Hmm... At least I can still see posts from others...

Discussion like my review here "are not helpful" and therefore can be totally and legitimately dismissed as invalid.

Fred W0FMS

Since the Flex system seems to be evolving to doing more of the heavy DSP work in the box vice on the computer, the interface to connect the two is less important. Even if Firewire goes away, so what.

If you get a Flex Tom, will you spend all your on air time talking about it?

If Firewire sort of goes away, I'm sure there will be Firewire to whatever interface conversion cards popping up. I'm willing to bet there is Flex back room work going on for creating newer hardware/software designs for market introduction a few years down the road. You can only keep a ham product so long on the market before it starts to grow hair although Kenwood still is actively marketing its original TS-2000 which is entering its eleventh year. As far as computers, I picked up an after Christmas clearing out sale at Office Depot, a HP dual-core machine complete with monitor for $400. It think regular selling price was $699 or $749. The thing works great with the Flex along with some other ham related software. When I feel real ambitious, I might go in and clear out all the HP pre-installed software bloat threw on the machine.

If Tom gets one, he can start an AM Flex Net, or AM Flex blog, or JJ Flexing on Facebook, or get on Twitter and post Flex tweets.

If I get one, you can bet your ass I'll be smugger than Queen Elizabitch!

I was day-dreaming about it during Yaz's walk tonight. Imagine the Flex controlling a Big Mo-FO solid state linear. A 10-20M Log Periodic with other associated mouse click ants.   6M capability too.  QSY QRO band to band in seconds. Wow.  Then the problem becomes, who do I talk with?  Too many choices

I would take a bulldozer and move out all the big HV supplies, the FT-1000D, FT-102 rigs, SP-600 kluge, Henry amp, Dr Love, Fabio, Rico Suave....  It would be a bloodbath. All that would be left would be audio processing gear, a computer, Flex 5000 box and SS amp.  

It would look like one of those hi hi FB neat, attic, homo-newbie stations you see on QRZ from the UK.. HA!


T

Not Hermes... but the basic architecture may be close...

It's someone's homebrew stuff..

No schematic that I can find...
A block diagram, and maybe the PCB cad.


http://james.ahlstrom.name/transceiver/

With all stuff removed, you could walk a straight line through your shack. You might want to consider getting a video card(s) with multiple outputs to control all your stuff with nothing more then a mouse or keypad. I use a Shuttle Pro for tuning (a real knob) and a bunch of programmable buttons for major functional control.

(http://www.invest2success.com/images/trading_computers_8screens.jpg)

Shuttle Pro - http://retail.contourdesign.com/?/products/23

(http://retail.contourdesign.com/?/image/551/44)

HPSDR decided to go network rather than fire wire for the reasons stated above.
I am very surprised that Flex has not gone to DDC. The hardware count is less. My guess is they don't have the internal talent.

You don't even need the audio processing gear. All that can be done on the computer!

You could compete the station with a SteppIR Dream Beam DB36. You'll have it all!

If they plan to advance, they'll HAVE to go to DDC.

You just can't go any further, and still use a 'soundcard'.

Yes the 5000 still uses a soundcard, even if it IS built into the radio.

Funny thing is, the radio can be MUCH better, give the users something to REALLY be smug about.

And, could be cheaper at the same time.

Homebrew your own "flex-type" radio, same features, same or better specs than the 5000...
Total cost... Less than $1000.

(still use flex software even!)


Then you can be smuggerer  ;D

Now THAT wud interest me. Even a kit wud be cool if they could keep the profit margin low just like the Asians.

Surface mount...hmmm.    I wonder if it would be as difficult as a class E rig? I can do that.. ;)

T

Tom,
  Don't let surface mount scare you away. My eye sight is nothing to brag about anymore (blended trifocals), but I have built several kits using surface mount components with good results.
    DDS-60, 3 Softrocks, 2 FCC-1 and a FCC-2

Bill  KA8WTK

Surface mount is SO much quicker and easier than through hole!

No lead-forming, no lead clipping.....

Ya never know what's going on in the technology back rooms.

Last I heard, there was a waiting list for this one.

There is also software that adds virtual COM ports to your Flex lash up to control your No-Tune Amps, rotators, antenna switching, and just about any other accessory you can think of to better your operating experience.  :D

From some of the comments I've heard, there will be a waiting list to have them repaired after the first wind or ice storm.

Scary picture.

Yep, $5K for a Dreambeam. Sounds like a nightmare to me.  Trombone tubes sliding in and out in the wind and ice. Yeah.   That complicated digital box control with motors inside the beam els - can't wait to see it hit by a nearby lightning strike.  I feel sorry for the hams who get sucked into that.

Kinda like a Monster IR beam with the green copper inside straps.

For longevity, give me a standard tough rotary mono-band Yagi or a log periodic any day.

Just think of what you cud build for $5K. Heck, my scrap alum triple 40M Yagi stack cost me around $600 total, maybe less.

T

I managed to hook up with a guy the other night that was using one of those SteppIR verticals. He went on for about 15 minutes about the antenna and how wonderful it was. especially focusing on the low SWR. I didn't even ask him about his antenna. Once he got going, I did ask a bunch of questions and he happily replied. I'm glad he likes it.

I didn't have the heart to tell him he was PW!

My Gotham Vertical had a low SWR too. I just can't understand why I called CQ for three days without a reply.

Yep, they get "religion" about their purchases. Stop by a website that features Toyotas, Colt 45's, Harleys, Icoms, Flex's, Moster IR's or any other specialty and they'll kick your ass if you have anything bad to say about their particular idol... ;D

Like a 14" dome of hornets, just imagine the posts if some alligator SSB AM-hater happened to staggger onto this site and talked about banning AM... :o :o

T

No, but when you are actually into SDR, you tend to do a lot of research on what else is going on other than in  the flex-world.


Thing is, people tend to think that the only way to have "top-performance" is to buy the ready -packaged, no knowledge needed option.

Tom,
Surface mount is very easy once you have a good microscope and a good soldering iron with a clean tip. Then you need a good ESD strap so you don't fry LSI parts when you handle them. I agree with Bruce. Through hole is a pita.
OTOH .025 lead pitch can be a pain.

Probably the majority of hams think that about most things (antennas, tuners, amps, coax, etc). Why would SDRs be any different?

The reality is most hams want a complete system, produced by a company with a track record. Things like customer service and support, a real manual and a warranty are important. Another dB of performance is irrelevant when the system is not supported.

The big gripe I have about the SDR world is a dependence on so-called "user groups" for documentation and information.  It seems most manufacturers, on their websites, just point to a yahoo group.  Reviewing the group's activity, in turn, presupposes a fair amount of knowledge of the product in question.

Here's a prime example - it doesn't even say what this company is selling.  Software?  A SDR radio?  Other hardware?  Some combination?  But there is a helpful Yahoo! link at the top  ::)
http://sdr-radio.com/Home/tabid/156/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Here's another manufacturer with a content-free web page
http://www.microtelecom.it/perseus/

I will give Flex a lot of credit for having good documentation and info on their web page.  Perhaps that's one reason they're more popular than the rest, although certainly the Flex is aimed more towards the Yaecomwood customer than hams that can decipher this disorganized and confusing mess: http://openhpsdr.org/

Heh. The worst was the Soft Rock web page (so called). You had to look for a long time to find out where/how to order one. Maybe he did that on purpose so he wouldn't get swamped with orders.  ;)

I'm pretty sure stepper packs some funny dust along with their product.


 

I agree with you guys about the customer suport and manuals. OTOH if you follow HPSDR you  would find members very helpful when new guys show up with old problems. I think everyone there sees that when a new module shows up a high volume buy helps control costs. I only had one issue whit the hardware so far. My Mercury RX had a bad relay around the input attenautor.
I reported it to TAPR and a new one showed up in a few days. It was a risk getting involved in this but so far it has worked out well for everyone.

Softrock site was a real pain to find. Tony Parks is retired and started making modules as a hobby. Demand for his hardware has exploded andyou sure can't beat his prices. I homebrewed my own tayloe converter similar to a Flex front end with the same fancy inst. amps.  I spent close to $100 to make a converter. Softrock is still the biggest bang for the buck and lowest risk.

Roger, on cornfusing websites.   I don't get it.   It's not that hard to put together a well-organized site.  It's especially funny when you cannot find how to order something.   I came across that the other day.


They did a survey some years back comparing government forms and mail order offers that come in the mail.  By far, the mail order offers and literature were many times easier to understand and fill out than the government forms. Maybe the reason is that the mailorder companies had to make it easy or die. The gov't is, well different... :-)

Flex certainly has a good company machine going. I also liked the WinRadio company in Au.  They were first class and obviously a well-funded, large company doing gov't contract biz too.

It would be nice to have an SDR system (TX and RX) put together using the best of the best modules on the market and interface it with Flex's SDR software. They do have a good interface and I love the presets for all functions, the EQ, audio processing, antenna nulling, dual RX capability, etc etc. Flex is a complete system that may eventually become the "MicroSoft standard" of SDR, who knows?

T

Here is a very informative question and answer listing about the Flex radios.

Notice they plan on a new software program to replace the current PowerSDR temporarily called "Deep Impact."

They now have the ability to be biased into class A final operation. I like that for driving a linear!

The wording seems to indicate it was written at least a year ago or more, because some of the things they say are about to come out are already out. (like the 2nd RX option)

http://flex-radio.com/Products.aspx?topic=faq#genSDR


And, here's the "Knowledge Center" for the Flex 5000:
http://kc.flexradio.com/KnowledgebaseCategory14.aspx

T

Craig,

Your post below was very informative. I missed it because it was in a quote box and looked old.

The info you posted below about the FT-1000D IMD was excellent. I will be trying the settings on my own 1000D.  Also the spectrum analyzer info and the Winradio spec analyzer board you ordered looks promising for real time work.  I will look these over more carefully.

Thanks again.

T


----------

Hi Tom

The G31DDC samples the  whole 30mhz shortwave spectrum and then the software also samples  smaller slice up to  2mhz(variable)
You can get the resolution bandwidth down to 1hz!

My reasons for buying this box was exactly the same as yours, mainly for spectrum analysis and nothing more. I also have SDR-IQ and a old HP8594 for IMD  and on air testing. I could not afford the SDR-IP from RFSPACE. The HP does not have enough dynamic range nor is it fast enough to capture IMD bursts from ALC overshoots etc. The SDR-IQ easily captures  these IMD products under real voice conditions. This article goes into the reasons why most spectrum analyzers dont do the job of on air IMD detection very well.

http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/alc.htm

What also worried me about buying any old HP spectrum analyzer is that most of them are unsupported. If you do  you get  unit with a blown mixer you  have thrown your money away. The only decent analyzer that is still widely supported is the 8560 series of analyzers. However even on fleapay they are still selling for minimum of $5K

I think if you going down the Softrock road the LP-PAN is best bet. Its a professional solution  and works well.

http://www.telepostinc.com/LP-PAN.html
Telepost is also coming out with an integrated solution however I dont know how good it will be.
http://www.telepostinc.com/LP-500.html

I also use the Elecraft P3 however I find the screen cramped and  the unit is not as flexible yet as a computer controlled SDR, this might be solved later when they release the external monitor option.

As for the debate on a SDR_radio replacing high end spectrum analyzers,  this is a certainty  in ham radio anyway  since hams simply cant afford real time spectrum analyzers or any spectrum analyzer that has sufficient enough performance  that enables a true assessment of on air signal quality. Besides real time spectrum analyzers are the talk of the town at the moment in RF test circles.

Have a look at Rohde FSVR  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgyrWDQjUHM
The real time display looks similar to the Winradio Excalibur! Anyway i cant afford $100K plus however  the SDR solution lets me  experience what  real time spectrum analysis has to offer at a cheap price.

As for HPSDR and Phil Covington, they all have nice ideas, however I cant wait  for kits and development. When they do release their products in a professional and supported manner I will buy.  All the off the shelf SDR hardware  that I have bought, I have been able to recover a reasonable % of my money  when selling  and funding other products. Its just about impossible  to get your money back if you heavily invest in HPSDR products. Thats my take from a distance anyway.

73
Craig
VK3HE

Some guys drink beer, I have HPSDR modules. I've been very happy with it so far.

The dream beam is to complex for me.  I helped install one of those four times because the gears jumped the internal tape when the controller said GO when the tape roll was at the end.   This thing was on a 120FT  tower and had to be lowered on rope pulleys for repair.

The Flex never sounds right to me.  I can pick them out on the air instantly when in the AM mode.  Even with huge $ Audio proc gear and carefull setup, They just dont have that Plate modulated sound and big strong in the room audio. I have listened to you many times on the 4x1 rig and I can tell you that you will never, Ever, ever even come close to that big clear audio punch you have on that rig.

They also break down. There is a users group on 40 meters.  I listen in the mornings when I am home since I know most of those guys.  It seems that just about every week one of them is back on yaecomwood because his Flex is down.  Relay failures,  Card connector failures, Driver instability and the biggest issue is lack of windows knowledge causing all kinds of issues. Performance suffers as you go up in Freq. This has been reported many many times on 40.. Guys go to 15, 10, 6 ect and start to notice that the old Yaecomwood is superior.

Also consider that in the begining, You will think you can use the same computer for email, Web surfing ect ect.. But in the end it seems that most get a seperate PC for that on any of the flex models so now you have 2 PCs in the room.

The biggest flaw that you need to know about is that if you power down the computer in the wrong sequence then the damn thing keys up all night.  This has happend many times on the air.  A local here in AZ shut his PC off and went to bed. That Flex was keyed for 24 hours straight right on our AM FREQ.  This of course anoyed the hell of all of us.

If you want to play around with one go ahead. But I think your making a mistake. I think you have one of the best radios ever made hands down. I think you should just pay the money for the Bandscope and put a cheap flat screen up. Then you will be happy with the 1000d.  That is all you are missing now.. and the band scope is the reason I use this little 756 pro everyday.  My flex was gone in a weeks time.

Clark,

I must say, I agree with much of your post... ;D  

Though most of the Flex's I've heard sounded very good, especially on ssb. Set-up and computer interfacing is important - I think the design itself is capable of good audio. But there's tons of variables involved.

Yes, those mechanized antennas can be a nightmare. I am hearing some of the Euro-gurus laugh lately when they talk about some of the StepperIR ants with *green* copper tapes inside the elements. There's a local here with the MonsterIR 40M capable Yagi who says it's broken several times and wishes they offered a higher priced version with better parts. O'well.  Some guys have better luck and have no problems. I like the solid, non-moving elements of a mono-bander or log periodic myself.

Back to the Flex... there is a vely famous local AMer who just bought a Flex 5K. He also bought a 4-core computer and hot-rodded it dedicated for the Flex. I will see how his works out. Already he said the RX is really FB and is impressed with the dual diversity using phase and amplitude ant mixing. He said the sync detector in the Flex is BETTER than the highly acclaimed Sherwood unit.

Also interesting is he mentioned that Flex has a $100K military version that has a 30db! better dynamic range than this 5K unit.  The parts in it are too expensive now, but in a few years will come down and SDR's will totally dominate the field.  Riceboxes will be history.   So based on that, I think I will see how he makes out with his system and also wait to see what new stuff comes out with the newer A/D converters, etc.  In the meantime, I will play around with a 455kc  down converter off the SP-600 for spec analyusis and receiver fun.

As is, my FT-1000D based station is well optimized and I'm happy with it. The test will be when my local Flex friend and I do some receiving comparisons for DX and see what happens. I can be easily swayed if I get beat up too badly... :-)

BTW, I just tuned up the 4X1 rig for 75M and hope to have it on tonight. If cornditions are good, I will be calling for west/ west coast on 75M tonight in the ~3880 area. Maybe see ya on.  (BIG IRON RADIO, caw mawn)

T

Sounds good Tom. I just repaired my SP600 so my 2x4/304TL rig is now back on the air with Big tuner and good RX. I shall join you tonight if you are going ot be on late. I am dealing with a neighbor with bad coax and dont want to start a fight.

Keep in mind that the west coast AMI net is on around 7 or 8 pm here.  Last week we had Tim and some other guy on 3875 blasting Hetrodynes over 3870 which pretty much ruined the net for about 60 people. 3880 might be to close. There is alot of people trying to enjoy that Net with lots of new Am'ers and I am sure you are going to put big signal here.

I love technology.  With the people that have the means to dump $15,000+ into an HF rig, more power to them. But for me to do that, I need to know its worth it. To me, Its not worth it.  The Flex side by side to the FT1000D is the real test. I am very lucky to get to test out alot of these rigs and it sure is alot of fun.







 

The class A option with Yaesu rigs is rarely used because in the 200 W. PA rigs, the FETs get really hot very fast.  The FT5K may be different.   I have been told they have to be run at the full 75 w. level for the least amount of heat dissipation but they still get damn hot and everyone AFAIK runs the usual class AB because no one wants to fry the FETs and pay $$ for new ones.   


I actually enjoy it and am delighted to let others blow money on buggy new stuff while I run 15 to 60 year old gear.  Y'all sell your boat anchors and get new rigs but wait for the rest of us to save up money and vacation time for the buying trips  ;D

Re SteppIR a few years ago I worked a guy in Mississippi who had recently spent a few thousand bucks on one of the 4 el. beams.  He had it up for about a day or two when it got hit by lighting.  That was the end of it.   I think he was planning on putting his quad back up. 

<<I didn't have the heart to tell him he was PW!>>

Probably had two radials or a chain link fence ground system.

He does have a great sounding sig. but unless he's changed things, Gary is about the only ham I know of who figured out how to get the Behringer 9024 compressor set up right.   I had one and found it so trying of my limited patience that I gave it to Derb and eventually wound up with a CRL SEP400B that has knobs that I could wrap my head around.  Gary also has one hell of a set of pipes and is one of the lucky few who could make a tin can and string sound good.

Oh yeah, Gary has THE voice.  No substitute for a good radio voice, no matter how much gear we buy. Even the "Big Bottom" didn't work... ;D

BTW, on the Flex, I later found that they have programmed in the ability to run the Flex 5K at a reduced power in pure class A operation.   Nothing like starting out with a super clean exciter.  That's assuming the previous stages are as clean as the PA - AND the amplifier stages are designed correctly. A poorly designed amplifier can run in class A but still be dirty as hell.

T

stagger onto the site or swagger in? Methinks swaggerin' is more fitting for those smug types. C.O.B. s

I've decided to hire that homeless guy to say whatever I want to say.

That guy already got hired! "will talk for food".

As for getting religion, once someone is bamboozled out of, er, I mean, invests $5000 or more on a technical item they probably don't understand, and finds out too late that it does not do everything so bright and shiny, they have a choice:

1.) "drink the koolaid and defend it to the death"
2.) "admit being outsmarted and look foolish"

3) Sell it to somebody else.

here is a spectrum analyzer, inexpensive, works with any scope or optionally works with the computer sound card, still mostly analog, as a kit or as completed modules:
http://www.science-workshop.com/

Only about $500, plus time to assemble, put in an enclosure.....

Some cool features...

But I really like in the desciption of it's features and design principals, it says:   " Isn't half a loaf better than none?.. "
 ;D

I bought the various kit pieces back in the early 90's at Dayton. By early Saturday afternoon, they were sold out of everything. The complete design was part of a Ham Radio Magazine article(s) back in the 70's. Worked fine for what it was. Still have it around here somewhere. Use it with a Tek 465 scope.

It's all in the case, the presentation. It is left to the builder to make the case as he sees fit. Except for the case shown on the website, others I found didn't thrill me much. It was almost like the builders just threw the guts in a box. Maybe I missed a real nice looking one though. Might be kind of cool in a heavy 1/4" aluminum rackmount with black crackle paint, chrome handles, big black knobs, and a really old school numerical display instead of the LCD. There is an aircraft instrument somewhere that has a "999 plus tick marks" set of reels inside. A retrospectacle.

http://lists.openhpsdr.org/pipermail/hpsdr-openhpsdr.org/2009-August/010406.html


We were talking before about hurting the Mercury receiver front end with static, etc.  Here's a post about a guy who put 16 watts into a Mercury for 30 seconds.  They appear to be pretty robust.

T