The AM Forum
April 25, 2024, 11:09:11 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Calendar Links Staff List Gallery Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: replacement crystal mic cartridge for D104  (Read 56162 times)
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
W2PFY
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13312



« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2010, 09:56:34 PM »

What do any of you know about the amplified D-104's? I took the plunge and purchased one on eBay.
Logged

The secrecy of my job prevents me from knowing what I am doing.
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10057



« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2010, 03:11:11 AM »

If it still has the stock crystal element and the element is good, it's about the same as any other D-104 element. I don't think they changed anything about the crystal part when they added the "power mic" feature for the Good Buddies.

The amplifier in the base is a piece of crap.  Best to remove it and use the mic with high-Z output, or else build a homebrew one that doesn't distort the audio.  I think there are a few schematics and circuit descriptions floating round the net.  I also recall that Timtron came up with one.

The D-104 cartridge has a reputation that no two sound exactly alike.  Some sound good while others have been reported to sound crappy, brand new from the factory.
Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
W2PFY
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13312



« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2010, 07:54:19 PM »

Quote
If you are using it on one of the early tube type amateur transceivers or an early tube CB then leave it in.

I was planing using it on a line in on some pro equipment for use with Skype.
Logged

The secrecy of my job prevents me from knowing what I am doing.
W2PFY
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13312



« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2010, 09:51:43 PM »

Quote
You just need to remove the amp board

Thanks I have a D-104 with a home brew amp in it and the schematic. That's what I'll do Grin
Logged

The secrecy of my job prevents me from knowing what I am doing.
Steve - WB3HUZ
Guest
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2010, 10:05:12 PM »

The line-in impedance of most modern equipment is on the order of 10-20 kOhms (sometimes even higher). Make the output Z of your preamp 1/10 this is all is FB.
Logged
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10057



« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2010, 10:27:03 PM »

I have a UTC Linear Standard Series audio input transformer that is rated at 100,000 ohms unbalanced primary to 500 ohms balanced secondary.  The catalogue says it is designed to match a crystal microphone to 500Ω line.  I don't know how well it would work with the D-104, but most crystal cartridges require at least 5 megohms load for any kind of decent low frequency response.  I need to try it out because I am not sure how a transformer load would compare to a purely resistive load as far as low frequency response is concerned.

A crystal microphone is said to be equivalent to an ideal a.c. generator with about a 500 pf capacitor in series.  That's why the high resistance load (>5 megohms) is required for good low frequency response. And I know from my own experimentation that working a crystal microphone into a 100K grid resistor results in Space Shuttlesque audio.
Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
Steve - WB3HUZ
Guest
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2010, 10:53:58 PM »

At least on pro gear, line inputs are designed to be bridging. Max voltage transfer is the goal so the line out Z on most pro gear is much lower - like 100 Ohms or less. This way, the output is not loaded and the frequency response is unaffected too.
Logged
ke7trp
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3659



« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2010, 12:50:17 AM »

This is why when swapping out interconnects on hifi gear can have a huge effect on the sound and volume level.  None of this gear is standardized. I realized this years and years go when I was into hifi audio.  Some guys think its the expensive cable but many times, Just experimenting with the length of that line will change the sound.


I would not believe what is written in a manual.  "600"ohms is just telling you its low Smiley 

I got a decade or multi resistor box at a ham fest. Plugged it in place of the Grid resistor.. WOW!!!!!  does that effect a D104's sound!. I could make that mic sound very low and bassy or very high pitched.  If you hear a D104 that is very high pitched, Its the rig and not the mic.. For example. Plug one into a Dx100 Smiley  I use it to match the D104 to the rig, Then I measure it at the radio and put that resistor in. Its often times very close to the sound you had with the box inline.

C
Logged
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10057



« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2010, 12:10:44 PM »

The D104's response peaks between 2Khz to 3Khz which it why it’s the ultimate mic for what we do. The grid resistor should be 1M min to 10M ohms max. Some people like to modify the old gear that came with 1M resistors with a 2.2M resistor. Using a 4.7M or even a 10M ohm grid resistor works better, but you can’t go higher than 10M. Usually if you go higher than 2.2M you need to also change the cathode resistor while checking the voltages and current on the tube.

That 10M maximum has to do with the rig, not the mic.  If you use too much resistance in the grid circuit the stage becomes unstable and the plate current may wander, as a minuscule grid current adds an additional bias voltage to the tube. In the early days of radio, this was often done intentionally to provide "grid leak" bias, but proved to be too unstable for mass produced equipment. Sometimes the first amplifier stage in a low-level preamp may use "contact bias", with no cathode  resistor or grid bias resistor at all.  I seem to recall that circuit in some of the speech amplifiers described in mid-50s Handbooks.  The grid just floats, and the negative charge that builds up on the grid it what biases the tube. BTW, it is a misnomer to call the grid resistor of a class-A amplifier stage a "grid leak resistor" unless grid leak bias is actually used to bias the circuit.

For most tubes, the RCA Receiving Tube Manual actually recommends something like a maximum of 0.5 megohms of resistance from grid to ground, but this would be too low for a crystal microphone. When you go above 5 megohms or so, it may be necessary to select tubes for the first stage to find one that is stable. The way I do it is, with no signal input to the grid, measure the voltage across the cathode resistor.  Now short the grid to ground and measure again. Find the tube that shows the least cathode voltage change, thus the least plate current change, from the shorted to unshorted condition.  My push-pull preamp uses 10M from each grid to ground. Instead of a 12AX7, I use a pair of 6F5s, which have nearly identical characteristics to one section of the 'AX7, but the single triode allows individual selection of each tube in the first stage. The  push-pull configuration puts a total load of 20 megs across the mic. There is no need to use a grid blocking capacitor at the crystal mic input, since the crystal mic itself forms a capacitor and should measure infinite resistance across its output terminals.

If the mic sounds too bassy with the high grid resistance, that means the speech amplifier has insufficient high frequency response.  You need to do something to boost the highs, not cut back the lows with less grid resistance.  I use a simple method to generate a "presence rise", which consists of a specifically calculated low value of cathode bypass capacitance based on the time-constant formula.  This  low bypass capacitance causes the cathode to appear bypassed at higher frequencies, but at lower frequencies it acts as an unbypassed cathode resistor, and the degenerative feedback lowers the gain of the tube.  Using two tubes in cascade with the special cathode bypass gives me about 10 dB of boost at the high frequency plateau beginning at about 2 kc.  The rising response begins at about 800~ and rises steadily until it reaches that plateau. This presence rise is in addition to the resonant peak of the D-104.  By limiting the peak to the upper midrange, beyond 2K, this doesn't make the audio sound tinny as long as there is sufficient bass response to balance the treble.
Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
K6IC
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2010, 12:46:00 PM »

Thanks Don for the succinct post.   I may try a version of your PP Speech Amp.  Thanks for the detail.   

73  Vic
Logged
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10057



« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2010, 12:54:49 PM »

I'll try to remember to draw up a schematic of mine and post it.
Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
K6IC
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2010, 01:04:15 PM »

That would be helpful.  Thanks again !     Vic
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

AMfone - Dedicated to Amplitude Modulation on the Amateur Radio Bands
 AMfone © 2001-2015
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.073 seconds with 18 queries.