replacement crystal mic cartridge for D104

[ka3zlr]

Don,

 I can get through to you I built up a few mics with Bobs elements I have one an I passed out three to a few friends
of mine and they were surprised. So I make mention here an some guy gots ta axe me about my wheaties big Deal.
The worlds gona stop if I don't produce graphs so let it stop. I don't care it was an experiment I Made it turned out
well and there's some happy Ops out there with upgraded D-104's NO BIG DEAL.

But they wana dig on me man...Keep it up...I gotta get sum Wheaties man..Wooooooo

73

Jack.



 

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

I think you missed the point. It's not about building or being scared. The point is the Heil cartridge frequency response will lack on the low-end compared to a good D-104. If you don't want that low-end, then rock on. If not, your mod is of no use.

Now shut up and eat your Wheaties!

Don,

 I can get through to you I built up a few mics with Bobs elements I have one an I passed out three to a few friends
of mine and they were surprised. So I make mention here an some guy gots ta axe me about my wheaties big Deal.
The worlds gona stop if I don't produce graphs so let it stop. I don't care it was an experiment I Made it turned out
well and there's some happy Ops out there with upgraded D-104's NO BIG DEAL.

But they wana dig on me man...Keep it up...I gotta get sum Wheaties man..Wooooooo

73

Jack.



 

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Who's busting your balls? Pointing out a technical difference is not busting your balls. It's getting info out there and letting people decide what's right for them. Choices. Kinda like having Wheaties and Corn Flakes in the cabinet!

So you say but the ones I did aren't complainen an they like'em on Sideband to nobody likes 104's on ssb so I help them out.

Say what you want I know what I did an folks are smiling an thankful.

I did a good thing an yer busten my balls , it's OK here not a problem.

grab yer graphs and bass lines Run.....lol



me

[K5UJ]

All I can say here is that I have never worked a guy who sounded bad when he was using one of the old xtal D104s into a high Z tube rig.   

[k4kyv]

All I can say here is that I have never worked a guy who sounded bad when he was using one of the old xtal D104s into a high Z tube rig.

Unless the first pre-amp stage uses something like a 50K or 100K grid resistor.  You need at least 5 megohms.

[ke7trp]

I have that Heil kit. Its horrible. It was a waste of money. This might be "ok" if you where to hack up a D104 and install this for use with an modern SSB rig. Other then that, Its horrible.  Trying to match it to an old rig was again a waste of time even when I used the Matching transformer. Maybe you guys will have better luck then I did.  IN the end, I had a flat bass-less tone that I hated. I just got another D104 head at a ham fest, put that back on and life was good again.  Its in the Drawer if anyone wants it.

Bob is a real nice guy.  He is happy to help anyone.  But I just did not care for this product.

Also be aware of the replacement cartridges sold on ebay. These are nothing more then the EAR piece from an old Telephone. I have pulled them out of the ear section of junk phones, Its exactly the same as whats being sold.  The only reason these are good is your original element is GONE and you used the replacement to save the mic from the trash.

C

[K5UJ]

All I can say here is that I have never worked a guy who sounded bad when he was using one of the old xtal D104s into a high Z tube rig.

Unless the first pre-amp stage uses something like a 50K or 100K grid resistor.  You need at least 5 megohms.

The grid resistor on the Eldico TR-1 is 10 Megs  Somewhere around here I have an Astatic JT-30 I got many years ago.  I hope I find it in the course of my on-going summer house clean out project (what I'm doing now while the bands stink).  I've looked at the xtal mics on ePay and there is simply no way to know what you are really getting.

[W2VW]

If something ever goes wrong with my nuts I'll consider a mic with a 300 hertz corner frequency. Otherwise a properly terminated D-104 is the best mic ever made for voice over radio without needing tone control.

Seems some other radio service information is being applied here. Why would a D-104 pick up any more background noise than a Heil replacement element? Maybe if it were using that awful preamp marketed to part 95 people jacked into the front end of a good buddy rig.

I'll wager 10,000 hi hi fine buisnesses I can do a blind transmit test with a D-104 into an MPF-102 verses any so called replacement and get at least 90 percent on the listening end to prefer the tin can mic.

 

Everyone has opinions a D-104 is a D-104 I can tell when someone is using one too been using them for years, they quit making them the thread says Crystal mic replacement Cartridge for D-104 Where?.....I haven't found another mfg match yet....So I go with what is being produced enmass and adapt it in the head now Bob offers a complete system. It ain't gona kill anybody It's not an exact replacement but it works well. it did for me an a few of my friends around here liked it. no one even has to pay this any attention unless your interested in adapting your mic over. I don't need to know your some die hard crystal mic maniac..lol them heads ain't getten any younger that's a fact an what's left Ebay oh great joy......The Parts Warehouse.

If you wana Try the adaptation Bob can Help the web page says it all. Time is moven on man get used to it.

http://www.heilsound.com/amateur/products/hc104/index.htm

73

Jack.

[KC2YOI]

this space for rent

[KC2YOI]

ditto

[nq5t]

I have to admit, I'm flummoxed   

A D-104 is a D-104, and it's a classic, and an excellent mic, and you can still get good crystal cartridges (Astatic, not the imports).  A Heil something or other, is a Heil something or other -- and they're fine, too.  Except even the "wide range" HC-6 chops the low end (you'd be better off with a PR-40, that is if you bought it before the price was jacked).

I also own one of those "in the case" last production D-104's (that was sneered at in the "ebay and other" part of the forum, which just wasted a lot of disk space to make some kind of a point).  And I'm happy I do.  It's in the case, and in the box, untouched.

Why is this discussion even happening?  It seems to have turned into a Heil marketing thread.  If I want to sound like a parrot hitting the PTT switch I'll buy an HC-4, if not, I won't .. 

[KF1Z]

The Kobitones aren't hiding at mouser, just search for 'crystal microphone'

Here's the data sheets for 2 models..... WITH GRAPHS!  

http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/KT-400025.pdf

http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/KT-400023.pdf

[k4kyv]

The grid resistor on the Eldico TR-1 is 10 Megs  

What tube does it use in the first stage?  I can tell that it is a triode, but that's about all.

I looked at the schematic by following the link in the previous thread, but the folding crease in the original paper as it was scanned makes the tube type illegible.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

In a day when D-104s are still plentiful as dirt, I don't think anyone needs to panic. Alternatives have always existed, some prefer something new and shiny from a wrapped. I bet I see 20-50 D-104s at the average 'fest. Most are cheap.

Never met Bob Heil, but from what I've gathered over the years he's a decent sort. And he offers products for the amateur community, which gets him more points in my book. Whether his products suit a specific need or not is up to the buyer to decide, obviously. I have to say that, to my ear, the Heil mics I've heard tend to sound thin or pinched and strike me as better for SSB work than AM, out of the box. When he started making visual knock-offs of the old Shure and EV mics from the 50s, it was confirmed in my mind. Most AMers would prefer the real thing, not a copy, even if they rebuilt the old mic with new guts.

D-104s always had a intentional presence rise which gave them a somewhat peaky sound. And, while not as 'fat' sounding in the low end, still sound better than any Heil mic I've heard to date. Outboard processing notwithstanding, you can make a carbon mic sound better with processing.

[ka3zlr]

Hello,

 The statement from the Left coast came in About Muddyness to much bass on the Air here hard to understand the Brothers on the East Coast.

OK.

Now at the same time Question comes in about a replacement head for the D-104 I'm thinking I put in my Mod that Bob offers it kills two birds it cleans up the audio for DX and isn't a bad replacement for the crystal head keep on hand for the DX contacts or change your settings on your processors this is whats on my mind then some Cat starts talking about Wheaties Huzman playen Father Bob an all hell breaks loose.

See I Know the Heads are removable put one on for DX put one on for Local isn't that so easy..

 if Someone has an Idea that's bad VooDoo to the Bass Mongers...LOL it's Hiliarous in here..

But stilll no one has mentioned how good it would be for the DX to the coast it's Plus I'll say it again an again an again..
No We can't let Zed.L.R. put down our God D-104 that we grew up with Oh Nooooooo.. it's a CB Mic an that's it.too bad.


We can talk good mics here an we have many times the 104 eh left over...

[k4kyv]

Some of the Heil mics are designed to have good bass response.  I visit the Heil booth every year at Dayton, and talk with Bob on 75m AM from time to time.  One year he demonstrated a mic (don't remember the model #) but it had a switch that changed it from restricted to wide range.  I thought the wide range sounded much better, but of course, in a rig that inherently can do little or nothing better than space shuttle audio, the restricted mode would sound as good or probably better.

Heil also makes broadcast microphones.  Check out some of the current broadcast rags for his ads.

I might consider Bob's replacement element for the D-104 if it had the same low end  response as the stock Astatic crystal version. But I am not interested in the version that cuts off the lows below 300~.

Astatic elements for the D-104 are like many of our common transmitting tubes.  They don't make them any more, but there are enough good ones out there in existing mics that it will be a long time before the supply dries up, but used ones may get more expensive as time goes on.

Actually, we can probably thank the good buddy crowd for the abundant supply of these microphones.  As far back as the 1960s I  remember it was a common belief amongst hams that the D-104 "doesn't sound good on sideband".  So, if they hadn't come out with the CB version that has that crappy pre-amp in the base, the mic and replacement elements would no doubt have been discontinued many years before they were.

Not that long ago, almost half of the cars on the road sported a CB whip, and every other house had a rooftop CB antenna (probably one of the reasons why, by default, HOA dictatorships now prohibit outdoor antennas of any kind).  So there must be jillions of D-104s kicking around, and eventually many of them will find their way to garage sales, junk shops or kerbside on trash pick-up day, and of those, a significant percentage will have been stored in an environment that doesn't destroy the crystal.  Crystal elements go bad when kept in excessively hot and/or humid conditions, such as damp cellars or hot attics for extended periods of time.  Whenever I find one for a few bucks or can pull one out of a dumpster, I grab it just for the xtal element, which is good in about 65% of them, roughly the same rate of functionality as tubes picked up at hamfests.

I think the reputation for sounding poor on slopbucket is that many if not most pre-90s SSB rigs already had narrow, restricted, peaky space-shuttle audio, and when the resonant peak of the D-104 was added, the harsh, tinny result was almost unbearable to listen to.  Kind of like listening to a female voice on slopbucket.

If an AM rig has a muddy, bassy sound with a D-104, it has serious audio problems that extend far beyond the microphone, and would likely sound even worse with another mic, except perhaps with a military surplus or telephone handset carbon mic.  That was one of the intentional designs of the D-104 response curve: to avoid a muddy sound, yet still have some bass capability. Rolling off everything below 300~ doesn't cut it (no pun intended). Not the best microphone by any means nor guaranteed to be "high fidelity", but something that produces acceptable voice quality through a reasonably good audio chain.

[ka3zlr]

Well I can't say alot of what you said I'll get looked at as making trouble again But That's Cool I'd rather be on the outside
I got nobody to suc up too..LOLOL... but Your right we've always agreed on these things I'm very Glad you understand it's
Great.... As far as the 300 cutoff you can ask Bob for the better one you like. the HC-5 ain't that bad it's not to brick wall.

[W3SLK]

Me thinks someone is into zeig Heil 

[ka3zlr]

Hi Mikey    what a day.

[K5UJ]

<<<What tube does it use in the first stage?  I can tell that it is a triode, but that's about all.>>>

it's a 6SL7GT.  That drives a 6V6 which drives the 811As

I was guessing if I ever wanted to use low Z line level audio into the rig I'd clip on to the grid of the 6V6 (pin 5) but I'm just guessing.  I have not read about the tube and as a noob don't know much about it at all.

I have all kinds of plans don--the mod trans. secondary is 7500 ohms and i have a 65 H mod reactor I can try just to experiment, but after I get the rig working stock.  I also want to drive the rig Rf with a VFO--some browsers have a click to magnify feature that helps see the schematic but I don't want to hijack the thread--i was gg to say there are all kinds of D104s out there but they are not all the same quality.  check eBay to see what I mean.

R.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

but of course, in a rig that inherently can do little or nothing better than space shuttle audio, the restricted mode would sound as good or probably better.

You make an excellent point there, Don. I thought of that after I'd left, the fact that, like using a restrictive receiver that limits high fidelity reception, you can do the same thing to any mic using a marginal rig. In fairness to the Heil mics, I've heard some RE-20s with outboard bass being inflated to the point they sound muddy and crappy overall. Also heard a few guys running old broadcast mics on SSB. If you ever thought SSB couldn't sound any worse....

The D-104 has been around as the standard for years, a baseline to measure other audio against. Not because it was the ultimate or best sounding mic, merely prevalent and as you point out, very acceptable audio.  Its place in radio history was sealed long before it became a favorite of the CB crowd, though the lack of 11 meter buyers was a main reason cited by Astatic when they discontinued the mic years bak (has it been 10 years yet?). That little 'power mic' amplifier in the base really gave them a bad wrap in later years.

Regardless, if you've got a full range voice, you really don't need anything beyond a rig with a clean, unrestricted (within reason) audio chain. If you don't, all the processing and fancy mics in the world won't change it.

[k4kyv]

Yes, Todd, it's been around since about 1933.  Decades before CB. Quite a fad, since by definition, most fads are short lived.

Mine is on a boom.  I have one on a desk stand, but rarely use it.  Neither one has an amplifier in the base.  Where would you put it? The desk mic base is solid cast iron. 

Rob, the 6SL7GT is a high mu triode, not too different from what I use.  My single ended pre-amp uses a 10 megohm grid resistor, too, and the 1st stage is a 12AX7.  My push-pull pre-amp uses a pair of 6F5s in the 1st stage (electrically the same as a 12AX7) and each grid has a 10 meg grid resistor, loading the mic with a total of 20 megs.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

That's a slick set up, Don. Your boom looks remarkably like the kind used for navigator's lamps in WWII aircraft.

My early D-104 has the nifty script tag and the screw in back, which IIRC like yours, has a nut on back and nothing more. Unfortunately I didn't get the eyelets with mine, so I need to figure out the thread size and install some. Then locate a large ring for it.

Haven't checked the element in it yet, though I recall the spacing material had dried up and was rattling around inside. Another project for later.

[k4kyv]

That's a slick set up, Don. Your boom looks remarkably like the kind used for navigator's lamps in WWII aircraft.

That could be what it was originally. It came from an old timer's shack, and it used to hold a lamp, but it was a regular 110v ac lamp with standard outlet plug and cloth covered twisted pair cord. I used it over my workbench for a long time, but I was always banging my head on the lamp, so I made a mic boom out of it before I managed to lose my cool some day and smash the damned thing with a sledge hammer.

My early D-104 has the nifty script tag and the screw in back, which IIRC like yours, has a nut on back and nothing more. Unfortunately I didn't get the eyelets with mine, so I need to figure out the thread size and install some. Then locate a large ring for it.

They all had that tag with "Youngstown, Ohio" on it, along with serial number.  Wonder what serial number yours is.
I have another one with the big screw in back and the Youngstown name plate, but no holes for eyelets.  The early ads indicated that a version without the spring mount was available.

I forget the screw size, but I did try some small screws and found a size that fits the eyelet threads.  I think it was a #3 screw, maybe 3-40.  If you can't find any ready made ones, it should be easy enough to find a piece of brass rod the proper small diameter and use a die to put threads on one end, and then bend it into a hook shape to form a set of eyelets.  You could even chrome plate them.

The desk stand with the other microphone was originally used with a double button carbon mic, which I still have but doesn't work.  The springs were very rusty, but I ran into a mic collector on the internet who had some extra brand new springs that he had ordered custom made.

One of the eyelets in the boom mic is held in place with JB Weld.  While the mic was in the care of a previous owner, some idiot managed to strip the threads in one of the eyelet holes.

Haven't checked the element in it yet, though I recall the spacing material had dried up and was rattling around inside. Another project for later.

Don't toss it without checking it out first.  It could still be good.  The rochelle salt wafer appears to have been dipped into some kind of wax compound to hermetically seal it from the humidity in the air.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

I won't toss it, Don. Just haven't gotten to it yet. I at least is here now, made it down in a box of mics in June. Once I dig it out I'll open it up and take a few shots, maybe try it out some night when the static subsides a bit more. Last night wasn't too bad, worked Long Island 20-40 over.