Open vs Closed QSOs

[k4kyv]

Should "breakers" always be welcome to join in a QSO regardless, or are
there times when it is best not to interrupt an on-going QSO, and when is it
OK for the participants in a QSO to ignore would-be breakers?

One of things I often find annoying when attempting to carry on a contact
near any of the popular AM operating frequencies is the near impossibility
of avoiding a large, cumbersome roundtable.  The band may be completely
devoid of any AM activity for a half-hour or more, but as soon as one
station starts up a QSO with one other, within minutes you can expect the
inevitable breaker wishing to join the conversation. Then another.  And
another.  The more participants in the QSO, the more frequent the breakers,
until a group has developed with 5, 8 or more stations. If the old buzzard
roundtable procedure is observed with a large group, you can count on at
least one participant getting the sequence wrong, per go-round, and someone
often gets left out for one or more rounds. It goes without saying that one
or more of the breakers will be piss-weak, and the general rule is the weaker
they are the longer they talk. Before long, each member of the roundtable is
waiting 45 minutes between transmissions, which tends to encourage long
old-buzzard transmissions when one finally does get a turn to transmit. It
is virtually impossible to carry on a simple conversation with one other
station on a topic of interest during prime-time operating hours.

Not that I mind joining in a nice chat with a group of AM stations or having
others join in on a relaxed informal conversation, and maybe attracting a
newcomer or two to the mode. But sometimes I find myself engaged in
conversation with another station on a specific topic of particular interest
to both of us, but then the inevitable breakers enter the QSO without
displaying any interest in the topic of discussion, and before long the
whole conversation is redirected off topic and the original discussion
fizzles before it is allowed to reach a conclusion.  I find this highly
annoying to say the least.

What's the best way to handle this situation?  With CW there is a convenient
pro-sign that specifically tells the other station and only that station to
transmit, and that all others should stand  by until the ongoing
communication is finished.  That pro-sign is KN in lieu of a simple K at the
end of a transmission.  But I know of no corresponding pro-sign for use with
phone.  Is it rude to ignore breakers, or must they always be made to feel
welcome to join any conversation regardless?  One technique when everyone in
the QSO has a strong signal, is to overlap the carriers as one station turns
it over to the other so that there is no pause between transmissions. Some
people say they find that rude, but wouldn't it be equally rude to approach
two or more strangers on the street, and to butt into their conversation
without being invited?

I would suggest listening to the content of the conversation in a QSO before
attempting to break in.  If the participants are discussing a specific
topic, do not attempt to interrupt unless you have something to contribute
to the topic at hand.   Listen carefully, and you will likely hear clues to
whether or not they would welcome others to join.  If there is any doubt,
QSY to a nearby frequency and call CQ, or scan the band for another on-going
QSO that would appear to be more welcoming to breakers.

We will generate more AM presence in the bands with several simultaneous
QSO's with 2 or 3 participants each, than with everyone falling into one
large, boring roundtable with 8 or more stations, each taking their turn to
make a 10-20 minute transmission. On 75m, if 3870-90 is fully occupied,
consider moving "down below" to 3600-3750 or thereabouts, or give 160 or 40
a try.

[WA3VJB]

It's natural for people to want to join an AM QSO already underway, I don't know why, but that's what I've found all these years, so it's nothing new.

What seems to help the breaking station, when it looks like they are immediately going off-topic and haven't been paying attention, is to pick it up and ASK them to respond to so-and-so's point that had been made just before they broke in.

If they stammer and don't have a clue, usually they sheepishly give it right back and say they'll listen for a few minutes and come back in  (which is what they should have done in the first place).

You know who you are.

[WD8BIL]

I think, Don, it would be ok at the end of your transmission to turn it over to the the desired station with an "only" tacked on the end. ie.. .."so over to you Paul. This is K4KYV in a closed qso with WA3VJB only please."

If I heard something like that I'd probably standby just to see what yawl was chatting about. Who knows, I might learn something.

[flintstone mop]

YUP,
160M is a pretty big place and pretty quiet above 1940, at times.
I'll have to try that tactic of starting a fresh QSO.
Beyond 4 or 5 ops, it gets hard to listen to long transmissions. I always try to keep it to 3-4 minutes. I have a sheet in front of me of who said what and who I turn it over to.
Old printouts of web pages with useless info make great note paper.
I know really bad English.

[WBear2GCR]

Don,

To quote a recent President: "...I feel your pain..."

But my suggestion is that it is what it is...

Secondly, what I would suggest is that the "window" is viewed as "the public square". I think that is a valid idea. So, if you want a somewhat more limited QSO one idea is to meet in the window and then move OFF to another frequency.

Given that imho too many folks are clustering around 3885 +/- moving off is an excellent idea.

The usual line about "my antenna doesn't tune down there" or "I'd have to retune my tuner" is just lazy BS imo. I routinely operate down on 3725 and I know the match down there is not good, but the rig tunes ok into the higher SWR and my signal report is the same as up on 3885. So, let's QSY??

In the immortal words of Moe Fine (Moe, Larry & Curly?) " SPREAD OUT !! "

                           _-_-bear

[W1GFH]

An AM QSO just naturally attracts breakers, ranging from people who know you and want to say howdy...to SSB ops who want to try out the AM position on their rigs. I think you'd find it hard to have a "KN" type QSO in an "AM" gathering spot in any band. Move away from popular AM frequencies and chances are less a 1000 person round table will develop.

[DMOD]

I think, Don, it would be ok at the end of your transmission to turn it over to the the desired station with an "only" tacked on the end. ie.. .."so over to you Paul. This is K4KYV in a closed qso with WA3VJB only please."

I look at it like a card game, say six players start and stay in until they decide to fold, then start another round with new players.

I have stated at times, "Hi breaker, we were just discussing the quantum theory (or whatever topic) of earthquakes and do you have something to add?"

They will usually 73 and or just monitor after that.

If they say something like, "I heard you discussing the 4-1000A GG circuit and had a question or suggestion," then we may recognize them with a, "standby W0XYZ, that sounds interesting, W4KYZ had a comment as well and after his comment we'll turn it over to you."

Phil - AC0OB

[KC2IFR]

Don,
Good question.
I usually listen to the qso before I break in. If the qso is between 2 stations and I have nothing to add to the topic I will not join it.
But if I feel I can add something, thats different. If I do join an ongoing qso and Im not sure if Im welcome, I will say I was listening and just wanted to say Hi and Ill be on the side listening. If they want me to join, at some point they will turn it over to me.

One thing that REALLY pisses me off is a person that joins a qso that is discussing a topic and the person joining changes the subject completely

Bill

[N3DRB The Derb]

"sorry, I'd really just like to talk to (insert name here) right now.  When our conversation is over, I'll be happy to chat with you."

works off the air and on.

[K5UJ]

Oh, I think if I am working someone and the exchange of information is so important to me that it must not be interrupted I'll get a way to contact them via email and use that for the important stuff (I'm thinking of technical topics which might be more accurately transmitted in an email anyway). 

At night in the AM window I assume there will not be a two way QSO.  Trying to preserve one to me is a lost cause.  Also, I think that if I heard a couple of strappers working each other in the window at night and they were making it clear they would not recognize breakers I'd find that kind of off-putting.  Sort of like the first time I ever heard of closed repeaters. 

Tonight we started out with a small group with everyone armchair copy then it grew then it fell apart not because there were a bunch of pw stations but because propagation suddenly tanked.  Anyway, I like two way QSOs a lot but when I want one I fire up the rig at a time when I think I'll be able to get one, usually on 75 that means Saturday or Sunday afternoon or early in the mornings around 5 or 6 a.m.

Rob 

[k4kyv]

To-night about 0300Z I put out several CQ's using my newly acquired 3690 kHz crystal.  No AM response at all.  After several calls I had a slopbucket station in Ontario come back.  We chatted for a few minutes and signed.

I don't usually hang out in a QSO much longer, once the station count passes four.

[wa2dtw]

I agree that it is always best to listen to a QSO before breaking in.  Especially outside of the "ghetto". 
But it should be understood that 3885 should probably be fair game for breakers, since it is a calling frequency.   So- QSO's on or around 3886 should be considered "open", and QSO's on the low end of 75 should be considered "closed".

[WB2CAU]

Don, I agree completely with your observation.  But there is another spin to this topic, and that's where the original 2 participants are excluded from the QSO because of a line of breakers that have no idea who was there in the beginning and breaker #4 wants to carry on with breaker #3, etc.  This has happened to me numerous times.  I call it "QSO hijacking".

And then you have breaker #5 come in and decide that "we're changing the round-table to break-in" operation.  Personally, I believe that's a decision to be made by the originals, not the later joiners.

I believe this to happen more up here in the Northeast because of the heavy concentration of AMers on 75m.  

This is one of the reasons that I spend far more time SWLing than talking.

[WBear2GCR]

Don,

Only the Extreee class guys can go down to 3690, so that dilutes the pool of potential responses...

But, ya know, with so many ops "unable" to operate their stations more than +/- 25kHz off their maximally peaked and tuned for 3885 antennas, you'll have much more quiet and serenity if you (and others) do the "let's slide off to ...".

Of course ymmv...

Btw, meant to ask, are there a bunch of daytime AM 75m ops on down there in the south??

                       _-_-bear

[K1JJ]

That's a tough issue to solve...

When it comes to AM, I think the 3870- 3890 area is something like a party line area. To axe stations not to break in would require changing the spirit of the existing "structure."   I'm thinking many people would be offended by this, especially ones who don't frequent this B-board.

When I truly want to have a so-called private conversation, I'll meet someone on ssb way down the band. OR, get on AM way down the band. (3700 kc area)  I've had conversations down there with no breakers for as long as an hour or so. Or, even make a telephone call.

But when I'm operating up in the 3870-3890 area, there's no way I expect a conversation will stay between two people for long. It's just been that way forever and would be hard to change now.

I think the best rule stated many times here is, "If you want to break into a QSO, be sure what you have to say is on the exisiting subject(s) and will add to the QSO.  And defer control to the original starters of the QSO.  ie, We are the guests of the originators until they leave and should follow their general lead of operations whether it be OB roundtable xmissions, breakin, etc and stick with their subjects until they are played out before allowing a new subject to be introduced."

To exclude new break-ins in the 3870-3890 area may start to sound like the "no kids, no lids" rap of W2OY of yesteryear.

And the last rule - use common sense. If the QSO already has four or more stations making OB xmissions, start another QSO elsewhere or just listen in. If it's a free-for-all break-in QSO, then there's really no practical limit to the number of participants - so go at it.  (personally, I love break-in QSOs, though participate in OB xmissions too)

T

[K5UJ]

WB2CAU you make some good points which which I agree.

[WD8BIL]

To exclude new break-ins in the 3870-3890 area may start to sound like the "no kids, no lids" rap of W2OY of yesteryear.

Point well made. Within the generally accepted meeting areas a one on one qso is an unreasonable expectation.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

When I want a truly private conversation, I call the other person on the phone, or even better, speak with them in person.

[k4kyv]

For those with only a General class licence, why not try somewhere in the vicinity of 3825?  Before the phone band expansion I used to hear a  lot of AM activity down there and the band was a lot more crowded than it is now.

And what about the "forgotten" frequencies above 3900?  I think the reason there is virtually no AM activity up there is a holdover from the old pre-incentive licensing days when the "gentlemen's agreement" was for SSB to operate above 3900 and AM below. A lot of SSB regulars formed what eventually turned into dead-air groups on 3900-4000, and it has been that way for decades.  Most of the activity I hear up there seems to be from old-time slopbucketeers.  But their ranks are thinning and now I hear open spaces up there every evening even during prime operating hours and low QRN, particularly above about 3920 or so.  Maybe it's time for a little AM presence in that part of the band, too.

[flintstone mop]

Bear brought up some good points. There will be antenna issues with folks not being able to QSY to far from the design freq. and then another problem arises when the group is too big and someone breaks away to start a new QSO 3kc away and there's the familiar hetrodyne whistle and the beautiful sound of A.M. needs to be resrticted to SSB BW.
That was a long thought

Fred

[Jim KF2SY]

......."Yeah thanks Ron, or was it Don for letting me in here.  Heard you guys on here and just wanted to
say hello...and wonderin how your hearin'  this pile of junk...~~~~static crash~~~~~you guys are strappin
....anyway don't know who to turn it too, put me in the rotation...."

[Pete, WA2CWA]

And what about the "forgotten" frequencies above 3900?  I think the reason there is virtually no AM activity up there is a holdover from the old pre-incentive licensing days when the "gentlemen's agreement" was for SSB to operate above 3900 and AM below. A lot of SSB regulars formed what eventually turned into dead-air groups on 3900-4000, and it has been that way for decades.  Most of the activity I hear up there seems to be from old-time slopbucketeers.  But their ranks are thinning and now I hear open spaces up there every evening even during prime operating hours and low QRN, particularly above about 3920 or so.  Maybe it's time for a little AM presence in that part of the band, too.

Yep! Many say move down in frequency yet, as you pointed out, there are lots of vacant frequencies above 3900 kHz both day and night. And Generals, Advanced, and Extra can operate there. Years ago, there was an "old buzzard" net that met daily on 3945. Not sure if it's still around or even if many of the participants are still around.

Like Don, big roundtables generally turn me off. The only time I find it tolerable is when we're using fast break-in, no order, and just general AM anarchy. QSO's that develop into big roundtables with old buzzard, long-winded transmissions, with sometimes generally incoherent ramblings, bore the heck out of me, and I generally either sign or get up and find something to do in the shack until it's my turn to transmit my own ramblings.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

I generally don't like the round table format, unless it's limited to 3 or maybe 4 stations. Anything more than that and the conversation devolves into a series of slightly related monologues.  Plus the time between transmissions becomes excessive.

For all round fun and entertainment, a "Break-in" session is tough to beat, and mimics a real conversation in style and understandability.

[K1JJ]

Pete said:

"The only time I find it tolerable is when we're using fast break-in, no order, and just general AM anarchy."


That's quite a message...   I guess those with the biggest mawls become the chairmen-of-the-board break-in anarchists...

T

[k4kyv]

Like Don, big roundtables generally turn me off. The only time I find it tolerable is when we're using fast break-in, no order, and just general AM anarchy. QSO's that develop into big roundtables with old buzzard, long-winded transmissions, with sometimes generally incoherent ramblings, bore the heck out of me, and I generally either sign or get up and find something to do in the shack until it's my turn to transmit my own ramblings.

But all it takes is one person to turn a fast break-in QSO into on old buzzard style roundtable. After a single lengthy transmission, others tend to fall in line