Electrician in the Central NY AREA

[W2INR]

I have been having drop outs on  my transmitter and I thought it was the rig. John  (JN) suggested changing the breaker which could be weak. I pulled open the panel this morning to find burnt main breakers and melted insulation between the busses. VERY BAD.

I am going out to purchase a new Load center but I want to see if I could find an electrician in the Syracuse area ( A Ham) to make this all happen. I do not have the time and this is a dangerous situation. National Grid will have to disconnect the house and then reconnect once the new load center is installed

TNX John!!

G

[WQ9E]

John,

Is your main feed to the panel Aluminum?  It is approved stuff and it works fine with proper connectors on the panel AND rechecking the torque on the connectors on a regular basis, particularly a few months after installation.  At least make sure your electrician diagnoses the reason for the original failure.

Are the branch breakers good?  If so you can get a new panel from the same maker and avoid having to replace all breakers but if there is any question of their having been exposed to too much heat from the existing problem I would replace them all since breakers aren't that expensive when bought in the bulk packs.

Although you probably should not replace the panel yourself (and probably cannot based upon local ordinances) you may have a shut-off or main breaker at the meter to separate your house from the feed.  My house is located in a rural area and when I changed to underground wiring for the distribution (separate underground lines to the house, barn, and two garages) I installed a 200 amp breaker and shut-off switch just ahead of the distribution box so I can kill the power to the system just after the meter whenever necessary.  It is a good idea to have a plan or method to kill the power where it comes into your house for situations like yours where the main panel is involved.  Depending upon the style of meter used, in an emergency you can clip whatever anti-tamper lock is in place and pull the meter from the meter pan to kill the power. 

Until you get this done be very careful of any heavy AC loads (dryers, electric water heater, etc.)

Rodger WQ9E

[KA8WTK]

Hi Gary,
  I had the old Federal Pacific main panel on the house re-placed a couple of years ago. The electrician told me I was lucky in that the inside of the box was not "cooked" behind the breakers. Also that the plywood it was mounted on was not blackened. There was a very good reason that Federal went out of business. I don't know what make your box is, but if it is a Federal, it needs replaced anyway.
  One nice thing about the new service is that there is a main shut off outside under the meter. Just one switch will kill the power to the whole house and shop. The electrician I used was licensed to make the disconnect and re-connect after the job was done. I did not need to wait for the utility company to come out and do that. The power outage to the house was very short. They did the work in about 3 hours. They are going to come back and do the Federal box in the workshop one of these days. Hope you can find a good electrician.

Bill

[w3jn]

 

That was a fire waiting to happen.  Glad you caught it in time, G. 

Yep, you pretty much need a licensed electrician to do that.  May even need to pull a permit, depending upon your local regs.

The power company noticed the power meter was loose on the side of the house.  The builder had attached it with drywall screws and some had pulled out.  A 15 minute job, but the power company required that an electrician do it and power cut to the house while he was working on it.  That little project was like the second coming of Christ - 2 power company trucks, each with 2 guys, and the electrician.  Took longer to disconnect the power feed from the xformer in the front yard than to re-attach the meter.  The electrician took pity on me and cut his flat $200 rate in half since he was in the neighborhood anyway and it was basically just gravy for running in 4 screws.

[WA1GFZ]

Gary,
You don't need the power co. to disconnect you unless you change out the meter socket.
In Ct. you can take the meter out of the socket and do the work on the load side. Then reinstall the meter. Contact the power Co. and tell them you broke the seal. They come back and install a new seal. I replaced my panel in a day.
I like GE brakers myself.
Make sure you use #4 solid copper for ground and if you have 200 amp service you need at least 2- 8 foot ground rods spaced at least 5 feet apart.
It is a good idea to install new ground rods.  I left a few extra feet of wire past the second rod so I could splice in the surface radio ground system in the new place. I used 0000 copper between the meter and panel. The feed will melt first. Home Depot has a nice GE 40 breaker panel for 200 amp service. If you replace the meter socket and wire up to the connection plan on an additional $750 to $1K. This was just done at my Dad's place a few years ago. Water had wicked its way down the lead to the sevice panel.
The Main braker was not damaged so the panel was saved.

[Bill, KD0HG]

G:

The Federal stuff was junk.

The GE stuff is good, but if getting a replacement load center, I'd consider a Square D. Their Homeline series of panels uses plated aluminum alloy busses. Their QO series uses solid copper busses, but costs a  lot more. It'll last a hundred years. You can get Square D Homeline breakers and parts almost anywhere, Home Depot, Lowe's, Grainger for a fair price. You can't so easily find parts and breakers for other brands of load centers and they can be expensive and only available from electrical supply houses.

I have never heard of a Square D panel burning up. They've got an endless variety of accessories and breakers for the things making any future mods easy.

[WQ9E]

I agree with Bill on the Square D and I went with QO series panels for all the buildings, at the time the price difference wasn't much but the spread may be greater now.  My main shack in the basement has a separate sub-panel for feeding the various shelves and tables containing the gear and only the lights and a couple of outlets are on the main panel which feeds the rest of our master suite addition.  I just have to throw a single shutoff switch to kill power to all of the gear which is a nice safety feature.

This is a good time to get a whole house surge suppressor installed if you don't have one already.  Each of my panels has one of the ICE units installed (I believe Array Systems is now the distributor).  Purely anecdotal support but in the 2 years prior to adding these over 3 separate occasions I lost a well pump, 2 computers, numerous security lights, and several small appliances due to electrical storms.  In the 14 years since I have not lost anything so either they are working or I was really unlucky the first couple of years in the house.

Rodger WQ9E

 

[W2INR]

Thank you for the input.

Mine is not a Federal but a Challenger

Here is a picture of the problem . Sorry for the blurry picture but you can get the idea. This camera does not like close up pictures.

[K3ZS]

The last time I had to get a new well pump, the installer said that the warranty would not be valid without a surge suppressor installed.    It was a little unit with 3 wires and connected directly to the pressure switch.   If local regulations allow, you can pull the meter and do everything yourself and then notify the power company for a new seal.

[W3SLK]

I agree with all about Fed Pac crap. Get rid of it and replace it with a Square D or Cutler Hammer load center. The newer Square D's have a system shut off that will let you change stuff out, but if you don't have that, the only thing you can do is pull the meter base. The power co. has to replace the seals on the meter base once it is re-installed. Those are some real nasty stabs!!

[k4kyv]

I had a new Square D circuit breaker box installed by a licensed electrician shortly after moving here in 1979.  A couple of years later it had a problem with a flaky connection at the neutral bus bar, almost wacking some of my 110v stuff with full 220 volts.  The bus bar continuity was totally dependent on a riveted connection!  I bridged the two pieces together with several strands of #12 copper, installed into blank wire receptacles on each of the two sections of bus bar, and never had any further trouble.  I thought that was an awfully JS method of assembly for a company with the reputation of Square D.  But I saved myself some serious bucks by fixing the problem without having to replace the box, before blowing up some of the electric appliances in the house or having an electrical fire.

[flintstone mop]

Gary
You gotta stop using the 21E at full power!!!!!!
Fred

[WA1GFZ]

Gary,
Those look like GE style breakers. A couple different brands fit. Bryant and Crous Hines if I remember.

[WA1GFZ]

That looks like 100 amp service. You might consider upgrading to 200 since you plan to pay someone to do the work. I bet the price difference won't be all that much looking at the big picture. At the new QTH I did underground 200 amp service for less than $1,000 (parts and power co. install) including all new breakers.

[KA1ZGC]

Yow! Good catch!

Blade breakers are no good for any serious current load, no matter who makes the breaker or the panel. The exact same thing happened at WCTB with the 3-phase blade breaker that was feeding the Gates 10G (my arch-enemy). This was changed over to a bolt-in breaker so there won't be any more breakdowns (no pun intended).

We're insisting on bolt-on breakers for the Harris FM-25K we're installing in Fairfield for that exact reason. I heartily recommend you do the same. Talk to the electrician you hire about this. Any blade breakers in the path feeding the big rig are at high risk of suffering the same fate! You will likeley need a second panel piggybacked off the bus bars of the main panel (if code allows, again, talk to the electrician about your code-compliant options).

Seriously, G: this has happened once, it will happen again. Go bolt-on. The peace of mind is well worth the added expense.

Glad you caught this in time. Good luck getting it sorted out!

[WA1GFZ]

That will drive the price way up. the GE panel I have has bolted main in and out but after that blade. There are two nice bolts that tie the two bus bars that could be used for leads to a sub panel. I think running a panel close to max rating causes elevated operating temperatures which cause failure in time. Running a rig at full power 24/7 is a lot worse than ham loads.

[W3SLK]

I'd heed Frank's advice. If it is indeed a 100 amp service, upgrade now to a 200 amp service. It will give you more flexibility and less hassle for few bucks.

[KA1ZGC]

That will drive the price way up.

It will cost more than another blade breaker, but it's far cheaper than burning the house down! He's going to have to replace the existing panel as it is. A single-position bolt-on sub piggybacked off the main bus bars (with a bolt-on main breaker) will add only a small percentage to the bill.

the GE panel I have has bolted main in and out but after that blade. There are two nice bolts that tie the two bus bars that could be used for leads to a sub panel. I think running a panel close to max rating causes elevated operating temperatures which cause failure in time. Running a rig at full power 24/7 is a lot worse than ham loads.

That's obvious, but Gary's blade breaker burned up under ham load! We both saw the same picture, right? The WCTB blade breaker burned up in spite of being spec'd appropriately, and that panel was nowhere near max rating.

Running any current through a blade breaker that causes the breaker to get warm causes the blade contacts to get worse over time, causing them to heat up even more. The rest of the panel can be cool as a cucumber while that breaker takes up smoking.

I'm talking from experience, not speculating. I've seen it enough times to know that blade breakers are prone to thermal death from carrying any real load for more than an hour or so a day. That includes ham operation. Don't forget that those filaments are sucking down current whether you're transmitting or not, so the "ICAS" concept doesn't apply to the breaker like it would to the HV supply iron.

[AB3L]

You should check your branch circuits to make sure that they don't exceed 80% of the breaker rating. NEC 210-23 a. The main should stay under the 80% rating also. To just throw in a new panel and expect that it will solve the problems is incorrect. The heating comes when you run close to the rated amperage and will gradually come back. The snap in tabs on the breaker will gradually loose it's tension and that is where the problem is. I have snap in's at home, well under the rating and have no problem. If the rating is too close the bolt in breakers will also start to run warm internally.

In my formative years I worked for a contractor that serviced a local restaraunt chain. I was surprised to find how much heat was present in the panels from breakers that were running close to the rating. The heat wore on the trip mechanism within the breaker and many of them wouldn't trip because of it. These were Square D. Their past contractor wasn't taking care of the true problems. We spent some time at all stores splitting up circuits and re-feeding from another breaker.
200 amp would be a good choice. Make sure that you get a panel with enough breakers in it. I broke down my house to separate breakers for each bedroom for the plugs. I split the second floor in half for separate lighting feeds. If the plugs go out, you still have lighting.
Figure enough space for separate feeds for each kitchen appliance and break up the counter top plugs as well. Leave some two pole spots for dryer, range or a feed for a shack or garage sub-panel.
Even if you don't get to all of this, it will be a selling advantage if you decide to move on some day, to have a panel with lots of capability.

This is my opinion from experience in the trade, you should of course get the opinion of a reputable contractor in your area and get the proper inspection done. In most cases your utility won't make their permanent service connection until they see the inspection sticker on your panel cover.

[Bill, KD0HG]

What a great time to put in a 3-phase service!

[W3RSW]

Might be interesting to look at all our breaker panels, entry connects, etc. with an infrared detector/camera.  The camera part was good for reports, for 'management' and other 'uninformed' types.

This is SOP at utilities, nat. gas compressor stations, industrial loads of all kinds.  We always found two or three 'hotties' at every station.  Most common cure was tightening the bolts.  Occasionally we found defective breakers and/or  too much load on circuits.  But only occasionaly in a service where loads were designed as opposed to your typical ham lash-up 

[WA1GFZ]

Gary's 100 amp main blew not the downstream braker. Say Gary is on the air and AXL is running the dryer and cooking the Thanksgiving bird. Imagine the current through the main. And remember the kids have every light in the house on. Very easy to approach 100 amps. Now 200A, you have to work at.
It was small money for me to upgrade all the heavy loads to oversized conductors. #6 for stove #8 for hot water and dryer. Big rig #6.  
Look at the location of the failure.

[KA1ZGC]

Gary's 100 amp main blew not the downstream braker.

Wrong. Go back and read Gary's original post, Frank. Then look at the picture again.

Gary's original symptom was dropouts on only the big rig, not the whole house. When he pulled the breaker for the big rig, which was right next to the main, he found the panel meltdown in the socket where the rig's breaker had been.

If the problem had been the main breaker, the whole house would have been dropping out, not just the big rig. The close proximity of the two added to the failure, but the failure was in the downstream breaker, no matter how much you want to (incorrectly) speculate otherwise.

Yes, the service needs to be upped to 200 amps (which by default would mean a bolt-on main breaker), but there's more that can be done to make sure this doesn't happen again. This is not something you can take a "just enough" approach with.

I don't know why you insist on arguing with me, but the argument ends here. I am speaking from experience gained at numerous jobsites dealing with these exact problems, and I stand by my experience: blade breakers are inferior to bolt-ons, blade breakers are prone to this exact failure when put under any load for more than an hour or two at a time, and no way in hell is it worse to pay a little more for a power service done right than it is to put your entire family at risk of losing their home or perishing in an electrical fire to save a few bucks.

You've given your opinion, I've given mine. It's up to Gary to decide what he's going to do, not us. So stop arguing already.

[WA1GFZ]

I didn't know I was arguing with anyone...
Heck if was rich I'd wire my house like an aircraft load center and get a nuke certification....but I have to work for a living

[W2INR]

Some comments,

Yes, the house was a 100 amp service and I am going to upgrade to 200 amp.

No, the transmitter breaker was not in the slot across from the main breaker. That is the main breaker falling apart and the insulation between the buss bars that is cooked.

I figure on a Sunday afternoon the oven is going (50amps), the dryer is going (30 amps), the big rig is going (30amps +/-) and the TV's, computers, lights - - wow I wonder why the box started cooking!!

The problem became evident when I was going to swap out the transmitter breaker with a new one that I found this mess in the box.  I was having a dropouts on the big rig and John W3JN recommended that maybe I had a weak breaker. It was John's recommendation that made me open up the load center and I am thankful I did.

So it looks like my simple replace the breaker(under $20.00) has turned into a larger project. Should be fun!!

Anyway thank you all for the input.

G