The AM Forum

I have been having drop outs on  my transmitter and I thought it was the rig. John  (JN) suggested changing the breaker which could be weak. I pulled open the panel this morning to find burnt main breakers and melted insulation between the busses. VERY BAD.

I am going out to purchase a new Load center but I want to see if I could find an electrician in the Syracuse area ( A Ham) to make this all happen. I do not have the time and this is a dangerous situation. National Grid will have to disconnect the house and then reconnect once the new load center is installed

TNX John!!

G

John,

Is your main feed to the panel Aluminum?  It is approved stuff and it works fine with proper connectors on the panel AND rechecking the torque on the connectors on a regular basis, particularly a few months after installation.  At least make sure your electrician diagnoses the reason for the original failure.

Are the branch breakers good?  If so you can get a new panel from the same maker and avoid having to replace all breakers but if there is any question of their having been exposed to too much heat from the existing problem I would replace them all since breakers aren't that expensive when bought in the bulk packs.

Although you probably should not replace the panel yourself (and probably cannot based upon local ordinances) you may have a shut-off or main breaker at the meter to separate your house from the feed.  My house is located in a rural area and when I changed to underground wiring for the distribution (separate underground lines to the house, barn, and two garages) I installed a 200 amp breaker and shut-off switch just ahead of the distribution box so I can kill the power to the system just after the meter whenever necessary.  It is a good idea to have a plan or method to kill the power where it comes into your house for situations like yours where the main panel is involved.  Depending upon the style of meter used, in an emergency you can clip whatever anti-tamper lock is in place and pull the meter from the meter pan to kill the power. 

Until you get this done be very careful of any heavy AC loads (dryers, electric water heater, etc.)

Rodger WQ9E

Hi Gary,
  I had the old Federal Pacific main panel on the house re-placed a couple of years ago. The electrician told me I was lucky in that the inside of the box was not "cooked" behind the breakers. Also that the plywood it was mounted on was not blackened. There was a very good reason that Federal went out of business. I don't know what make your box is, but if it is a Federal, it needs replaced anyway.
  One nice thing about the new service is that there is a main shut off outside under the meter. Just one switch will kill the power to the whole house and shop. The electrician I used was licensed to make the disconnect and re-connect after the job was done. I did not need to wait for the utility company to come out and do that. The power outage to the house was very short. They did the work in about 3 hours. They are going to come back and do the Federal box in the workshop one of these days. Hope you can find a good electrician.

Bill

 :o :o

That was a fire waiting to happen.  Glad you caught it in time, G. 

Yep, you pretty much need a licensed electrician to do that.  May even need to pull a permit, depending upon your local regs.

The power company noticed the power meter was loose on the side of the house.  The builder had attached it with drywall screws and some had pulled out.  A 15 minute job, but the power company required that an electrician do it and power cut to the house while he was working on it.  That little project was like the second coming of Christ - 2 power company trucks, each with 2 guys, and the electrician.  Took longer to disconnect the power feed from the xformer in the front yard than to re-attach the meter.  The electrician took pity on me and cut his flat $200 rate in half since he was in the neighborhood anyway and it was basically just gravy for running in 4 screws.

Gary,
You don't need the power co. to disconnect you unless you change out the meter socket.
In Ct. you can take the meter out of the socket and do the work on the load side. Then reinstall the meter. Contact the power Co. and tell them you broke the seal. They come back and install a new seal. I replaced my panel in a day.
I like GE brakers myself.
Make sure you use #4 solid copper for ground and if you have 200 amp service you need at least 2- 8 foot ground rods spaced at least 5 feet apart.
It is a good idea to install new ground rods.  I left a few extra feet of wire past the second rod so I could splice in the surface radio ground system in the new place. I used 0000 copper between the meter and panel. The feed will melt first. Home Depot has a nice GE 40 breaker panel for 200 amp service. If you replace the meter socket and wire up to the connection plan on an additional $750 to $1K. This was just done at my Dad's place a few years ago. Water had wicked its way down the lead to the sevice panel.
The Main braker was not damaged so the panel was saved.

G:

The Federal stuff was junk.

The GE stuff is good, but if getting a replacement load center, I'd consider a Square D. Their Homeline series of panels uses plated aluminum alloy busses. Their QO series uses solid copper busses, but costs a  lot more. It'll last a hundred years. You can get Square D Homeline breakers and parts almost anywhere, Home Depot, Lowe's, Grainger for a fair price. You can't so easily find parts and breakers for other brands of load centers and they can be expensive and only available from electrical supply houses.

I have never heard of a Square D panel burning up. They've got an endless variety of accessories and breakers for the things making any future mods easy.

I agree with Bill on the Square D and I went with QO series panels for all the buildings, at the time the price difference wasn't much but the spread may be greater now.  My main shack in the basement has a separate sub-panel for feeding the various shelves and tables containing the gear and only the lights and a couple of outlets are on the main panel which feeds the rest of our master suite addition.  I just have to throw a single shutoff switch to kill power to all of the gear which is a nice safety feature.

This is a good time to get a whole house surge suppressor installed if you don't have one already.  Each of my panels has one of the ICE units installed (I believe Array Systems is now the distributor).  Purely anecdotal support but in the 2 years prior to adding these over 3 separate occasions I lost a well pump, 2 computers, numerous security lights, and several small appliances due to electrical storms.  In the 14 years since I have not lost anything so either they are working or I was really unlucky the first couple of years in the house.

Rodger WQ9E

 

Thank you for the input.

Mine is not a Federal but a Challenger

Here is a picture of the problem . Sorry for the blurry picture but you can get the idea. This camera does not like close up pictures.

The last time I had to get a new well pump, the installer said that the warranty would not be valid without a surge suppressor installed.    It was a little unit with 3 wires and connected directly to the pressure switch.   If local regulations allow, you can pull the meter and do everything yourself and then notify the power company for a new seal.

I agree with all about Fed Pac crap. Get rid of it and replace it with a Square D or Cutler Hammer load center. The newer Square D's have a system shut off that will let you change stuff out, but if you don't have that, the only thing you can do is pull the meter base. The power co. has to replace the seals on the meter base once it is re-installed. Those are some real nasty stabs!! :P

I had a new Square D circuit breaker box installed by a licensed electrician shortly after moving here in 1979.  A couple of years later it had a problem with a flaky connection at the neutral bus bar, almost wacking some of my 110v stuff with full 220 volts.  The bus bar continuity was totally dependent on a riveted connection!  I bridged the two pieces together with several strands of #12 copper, installed into blank wire receptacles on each of the two sections of bus bar, and never had any further trouble.  I thought that was an awfully JS method of assembly for a company with the reputation of Square D.  But I saved myself some serious bucks by fixing the problem without having to replace the box, before blowing up some of the electric appliances in the house or having an electrical fire.

Gary
You gotta stop using the 21E at full power!!!!!!
Fred

Gary,
Those look like GE style breakers. A couple different brands fit. Bryant and Crous Hines if I remember.

That looks like 100 amp service. You might consider upgrading to 200 since you plan to pay someone to do the work. I bet the price difference won't be all that much looking at the big picture. At the new QTH I did underground 200 amp service for less than $1,000 (parts and power co. install) including all new breakers.

Yow! Good catch!

Blade breakers are no good for any serious current load, no matter who makes the breaker or the panel. The exact same thing happened at WCTB with the 3-phase blade breaker that was feeding the Gates 10G (my arch-enemy). This was changed over to a bolt-in breaker so there won't be any more breakdowns (no pun intended).

We're insisting on bolt-on breakers for the Harris FM-25K we're installing in Fairfield for that exact reason. I heartily recommend you do the same. Talk to the electrician you hire about this. Any blade breakers in the path feeding the big rig are at high risk of suffering the same fate! You will likeley need a second panel piggybacked off the bus bars of the main panel (if code allows, again, talk to the electrician about your code-compliant options).

Seriously, G: this has happened once, it will happen again. Go bolt-on. The peace of mind is well worth the added expense.

Glad you caught this in time. Good luck getting it sorted out!

That will drive the price way up. the GE panel I have has bolted main in and out but after that blade. There are two nice bolts that tie the two bus bars that could be used for leads to a sub panel. I think running a panel close to max rating causes elevated operating temperatures which cause failure in time. Running a rig at full power 24/7 is a lot worse than ham loads.

I'd heed Frank's advice. If it is indeed a 100 amp service, upgrade now to a 200 amp service. It will give you more flexibility and less hassle for few bucks.

It will cost more than another blade breaker, but it's far cheaper than burning the house down! He's going to have to replace the existing panel as it is. A single-position bolt-on sub piggybacked off the main bus bars (with a bolt-on main breaker) will add only a small percentage to the bill.


That's obvious, but Gary's blade breaker burned up under ham load! We both saw the same picture, right? The WCTB blade breaker burned up in spite of being spec'd appropriately, and that panel was nowhere near max rating.

Running any current through a blade breaker that causes the breaker to get warm causes the blade contacts to get worse over time, causing them to heat up even more. The rest of the panel can be cool as a cucumber while that breaker takes up smoking.

I'm talking from experience, not speculating. I've seen it enough times to know that blade breakers are prone to thermal death from carrying any real load for more than an hour or so a day. That includes ham operation. Don't forget that those filaments are sucking down current whether you're transmitting or not, so the "ICAS" concept doesn't apply to the breaker like it would to the HV supply iron.

You should check your branch circuits to make sure that they don't exceed 80% of the breaker rating. NEC 210-23 a. The main should stay under the 80% rating also. To just throw in a new panel and expect that it will solve the problems is incorrect. The heating comes when you run close to the rated amperage and will gradually come back. The snap in tabs on the breaker will gradually loose it's tension and that is where the problem is. I have snap in's at home, well under the rating and have no problem. If the rating is too close the bolt in breakers will also start to run warm internally.

In my formative years I worked for a contractor that serviced a local restaraunt chain. I was surprised to find how much heat was present in the panels from breakers that were running close to the rating. The heat wore on the trip mechanism within the breaker and many of them wouldn't trip because of it. These were Square D. Their past contractor wasn't taking care of the true problems. We spent some time at all stores splitting up circuits and re-feeding from another breaker.
200 amp would be a good choice. Make sure that you get a panel with enough breakers in it. I broke down my house to separate breakers for each bedroom for the plugs. I split the second floor in half for separate lighting feeds. If the plugs go out, you still have lighting.
Figure enough space for separate feeds for each kitchen appliance and break up the counter top plugs as well. Leave some two pole spots for dryer, range or a feed for a shack or garage sub-panel.
Even if you don't get to all of this, it will be a selling advantage if you decide to move on some day, to have a panel with lots of capability.

This is my opinion from experience in the trade, you should of course get the opinion of a reputable contractor in your area and get the proper inspection done. In most cases your utility won't make their permanent service connection until they see the inspection sticker on your panel cover.

What a great time to put in a 3-phase service!

Might be interesting to look at all our breaker panels, entry connects, etc. with an infrared detector/camera.  The camera part was good for reports, for 'management' and other 'uninformed' types.

This is SOP at utilities, nat. gas compressor stations, industrial loads of all kinds.  We always found two or three 'hotties' at every station.  Most common cure was tightening the bolts.  Occasionally we found defective breakers and/or  too much load on circuits.  But only occasionaly in a service where loads were designed as opposed to your typical ham lash-up  ;D

Gary's 100 amp main blew not the downstream braker. Say Gary is on the air and AXL is running the dryer and cooking the Thanksgiving bird. Imagine the current through the main. And remember the kids have every light in the house on. Very easy to approach 100 amps. Now 200A, you have to work at.
It was small money for me to upgrade all the heavy loads to oversized conductors. #6 for stove #8 for hot water and dryer. Big rig #6.  
Look at the location of the failure.

Wrong. Go back and read Gary's original post, Frank. Then look at the picture again.

Gary's original symptom was dropouts on only the big rig, not the whole house. When he pulled the breaker for the big rig, which was right next to the main, he found the panel meltdown in the socket where the rig's breaker had been.

If the problem had been the main breaker, the whole house would have been dropping out, not just the big rig. The close proximity of the two added to the failure, but the failure was in the downstream breaker, no matter how much you want to (incorrectly) speculate otherwise.

Yes, the service needs to be upped to 200 amps (which by default would mean a bolt-on main breaker), but there's more that can be done to make sure this doesn't happen again. This is not something you can take a "just enough" approach with.

I don't know why you insist on arguing with me, but the argument ends here. I am speaking from experience gained at numerous jobsites dealing with these exact problems, and I stand by my experience: blade breakers are inferior to bolt-ons, blade breakers are prone to this exact failure when put under any load for more than an hour or two at a time, and no way in hell is it worse to pay a little more for a power service done right than it is to put your entire family at risk of losing their home or perishing in an electrical fire to save a few bucks.

You've given your opinion, I've given mine. It's up to Gary to decide what he's going to do, not us. So stop arguing already.

I didn't know I was arguing with anyone...
Heck if was rich I'd wire my house like an aircraft load center and get a nuke certification....but I have to work for a living

Some comments,

Yes, the house was a 100 amp service and I am going to upgrade to 200 amp.

No, the transmitter breaker was not in the slot across from the main breaker. That is the main breaker falling apart and the insulation between the buss bars that is cooked.

I figure on a Sunday afternoon the oven is going (50amps), the dryer is going (30 amps), the big rig is going (30amps +/-) and the TV's, computers, lights - - wow I wonder why the box started cooking!!

The problem became evident when I was going to swap out the transmitter breaker with a new one that I found this mess in the box.  I was having a dropouts on the big rig and John W3JN recommended that maybe I had a weak breaker. It was John's recommendation that made me open up the load center and I am thankful I did.

So it looks like my simple replace the breaker(under $20.00) has turned into a larger project. Should be fun!!

Anyway thank you all for the input.

G

One more thought while the box is being swapped out:  I live in a area prone to power outages.  When the power is out, I have no water, no heat, no lights and no radio. >:(   When I had the 200 amp box installed, I got one with the generator transfer switch built right in.  The transfer switch is simply a bar that does not allow both the main 200 amp and the generator 30 amp breakers to be on at the same time.  The plug for the generator is on the outside of the house.  It's a manual system, including the damn manual start on the generator (next one will be electric start), but within reason/moderation and not all at once, I can run anything in the house except the double electric ovens. ::)

Glad to hear you found  the problem before anything more serious happened.

Jack

Now Jack that is a cool idea.
Gary, My guess it will cost you $2K to $3K if the service lead to the pole isn't replaced. Our power co charged me $360 to pull a 50 foot underground run of 200A service lead.....but wire was cheaper a few years ago. I had to install  3 inch gray pvc pipe from the meter socket to the pole. 1 day to install the meter socket and new panel wire between them and new grounds. Another solid day to wire the panel. I think it took well over a day to wire 25 or so home runs to breakers. Then time to remove all the old stuff.

What is building code in other parts of the country for electric service?

Here, new residences and services must be 200 amp using 4/0 or 250 MCM feeders. 100 amp is no longer allowed. Your wrists *will* get a good workout rassling that stuff around elbows, LBs or inside boxes.

It is nice not seeing the lights blink when the dryer or oven kick on. Or the 304s..
My old house had a 60 amp service that was awful.

I used 4/0 copper between the meter socket and breaker panel. I was pooped after pulling and connecting 3- 5 foot wires. The elbow below the socket going through the wall was a trip. 
The power co feed was aluminum and the neutral was a bit smaller.

Bill, I think around here you can get away with only 100 A service but it is usually in town. Where the house dryer, stove, and water heater run off of natural gas. Gary, if you are going to consider using a generator even in the distant future, go with at least a manual transfer switch. Alot of people I know will back feed into the dryer receptacle, (illegal). The transfer switch will let you segregate your circuits and keep you from ruining the generator should the power return unexpectedly.

I'd had intermittent dropouts on one side for a couple years and never could find it. One day I was outside near the box and heard a buzz overhead. I looked up and the wire from the utility was sparking where the splice was between the line and the entrance to the meter pipe. I called them and they replaced the 50 year old wire and crimp connector at no charge.

Here's a story about the worst electrician in town.

About 5 years ago I dragged home a 40KW 3 phase diesel generator and 200A Zenith automatic transfer switch with 120 hours on it. I had a foundation poured in the back yard and set it there on some pressure treated 4x4's. I mounted the xfer in the garage on the wall and after calling some friends who use commerical electricians, called electricians out for estimates because alot of residential ones won't mess with tranfers of that complexity. The one I picked was unfortunately a lemon.. They didn't know squat about rrewiring the generator even though I had the manual, and also had no idea what to do with the unused 'phase' of the transfer switch or how to wire up the small 120-208V transformers since the transfer's relays are 208V, not 220V. I had to stay watching them, they broke stuff, and didn't route the conduit where I specified, and I made them tear it out and redo it. I caught them smoking pot as well, and at one time a street-walking crackhead was trying to sell a stolen sander and they did business with him in my own garage against my orders and I had to go get a .45 and chase the bugger off and they really totally freaked out on the gun, maybe they were stoned - probably. One of them told me I should take a "bonge hit?" and chill out. One of them was messing with the wires to the meter and using a metal ladder and got knocked off it by the 220V. sloppy work.. I made them correct all of it before I paid them. The one that got zapped was messing with the meter pipe because they had to put in a 200A service since the generator was so large (code). Just as well, I was out of breakers.. Those clowns were totally mystified that I just took the manual out the the genset and rewired it, and rewired the transfer's control transformers. So the lab now has a 100A set of breakers which was the biggest I could fit in a regular box. Anyway the guy had quoted me $3000 for the turn-key job, and I paid him.

A few months later he found me at an antique radio convention (he called the house and found out where I was and actually came looking) and told me I still owed him $1500. He asked me how I could possibly believe that job could be done for $3000? I said 'how do I know, that was your quote and I have a receipt that you signed for $3000 saying paid in full. -So he started demanding and arguing and the like and getting ugly and threatening and saying he knows where I live, and also he could file a lein.., and so I cut him off and reminded him that I also knew who he is, knew where his master electrician's big contracts are, and 2 of the sites he works at, and also reminded him of the pot smoking, buying stolen merchandise, and if he's making threats just remember the crackhead, and that from then on, anything that ever happened to my stuff - I'd be straight to the police looking for his hand in it so just go file or do whatever, and if he wants to come by some time when I'm not there and mess with my property, my retired old redneck tenant has no car so you can't tell if he's home or not will be waiting and ain't so nice like me. So the guy calmed down but still wanted his? money.. and I just said no that's the end of it and the guy was unhappy but he left.

That pretty much was the end of it, but I was so ticked off I called my friend, the property maintenance engineer over a couple hi-rises downtown, who had reccommended this crew of pot-head lying dishonest buffoons, and told him all about it. Friend said he wondered about the few "roaches" he'd found here and there in unfinished spaces, so I said, well there's your man, and told him about the stolen tool and inviting the crackhead into my garage and me having to protect my property as well. He said well, they're out of here.. I have never heard from that bad electrician again. He's probably still out there all potted up and mis-wiring people's houses and buying stolen tools from other thieves.

I hope you have better luck.

Gary,

You can email WN2FQD. He's my older brother, a licensed electrician, a ham (WB2FQD), and a member here.

He lives in Victor, but he works at the AB brewery in Baldwinsville so he is always in the Syracuse area.

Marty

Thanks Marty

I ddi a search here in the member list using wb2fqd but I get no match. Would you know what his user name is or do you have his email address?

G

Gary,

His user name is WN2FQD.

My son has his cell number in his phone, but he is still sleeping right now, it's not even 6AM here.

I'll PM it to you when he gets up. His home phone is listed as either Joseph or Louise Granica in Victor,NY, on State Route 444.

He is either a Journeyman or Master Electrician with IBEW, I don't remember which.

Marty

Bingo.
It is good to have a guy in the family. My cousin in the biz set me straight.
I was working on construction for a while putting an addition on a house.
The lazy ass doing the wiring would spend 1/2 his time sitting around smoking butts and eating. One day he told us how drunk he and his pals got working on the Nuke plant and all the money they made doing the same job 3 times.
There are bad apples in every bunch. I was very lucky building my place having my neighbor filter out all the idiots for me.

For what it is worth, I have been an electrician since 1981.  As I recall, Challenger Switch Gear was the "Spawn of Federal Pacific's Bowels" Indeed, it was a totally different style then the old FPE, however after a few incidents of  CB's not tripping on a dead short, I stopped using it.

I haven't been to active as an electrician for about 10 years. I used to start 200 amp service upgrades at $750. Today I would think $1200 would be a good start.

Good luck with your work,

Steve W1TAV

Then I misunderstood the breaker location, but it's still important to note that only the big rig was experiencing the dropout and not the whole house. That breaker is bad, and the main breaker crapout is more of a conincidence. If the main breaker was causing the dropout, the whole house would have gone down, not just the big rig.

Still, going to a 200 amp service will solve the main-breaker-meltdown issue, since 200 amp service drops are universally done with bolt-on main breaker to a 24+ position panel. You won't have that problem again.

Once you get the new panel in place, put the new breaker in for the big rig. Sounds like it did go bad, and gave you a chance to catch the damage also being done at the mains entry point when you went in after it. There's your silver lining!

Also worth feeling the new breaker after a few hours of operation to see how hot it's getting. I got into that habit after a few meltdowns in Framingham. If it's too warm to comfortably keep the back of your fingers against for more than a couple of seconds, then it isn't going to last long. What to do about it at that point is another story, but a good experienced electrician will steer you in the right direction for not much money.

Good luck!

Gary;Is your old 100 amp service copper or aluminum to the main breaker and do you know the size of the wire,a lot of old copper 100amp services were actually good for 150 amps.I will try to give you a call Thursday after work to set up a time to look at the problem.Joe WB2FQD.

Hi Joe,

Thanks for getting back to me, I appreciate it.

The service comes in on triplex ( aluminum ) and transitions at the house to entrance cable down to the meter. I believe the meter is rated at 200 amps. The entrance feed from the meter is also aluminum right to the main breaker.

I will look for your call Thursday.

G

I went back and looked at the picture. The wire in the panel looks like 100 amps to me.....or I really over did it. That would be a pisser if you have 200 amps to the meter. Then all you would need to do is pop the meter out and replace everything after it. That would be a easy 1 day job. 

Heh, Heh, when I rented off of the father-in-law, we only had 60 Amp (!) service into the house and 60A into the barn. I needed to run a sub-panel just for my radios. The meter base we had set on a separate pole, as opposed to a weather head into the house. The electrik co. came out installed a new pole and new transformer, I got the meter base and weather head on the house, and a nice new Square D loadcenter with lightning protection for $650. Of course it helps when your unkle is the electrician  ;)

You are right Frank, I am hoping that is the case but I doubt it.I just don't know about the service feed.

The load center is rated @100 amps. This was going to have to be done sooner or later. We are adding central air in the spring and that would have demanded a new panel. I think the meter, which is digital, is the default meter they use no matter what service you have.

I found a GE panel contractors kit. 200 amp w/ Main breaker installed, Copper bus, and 10- 20 amp , 1-30 amp and 1-50 amp breaker included. I am just going to wait until Joe can look things over and give me advice on this before I do anything.

G

G .... see if that GE kit has copper bar ... about this time last year I installed a GEv200 Amp and a separate 125 Amp set of load centers that had copper bar both on box outside and embossed on the bars inside ... the bars were some copper alloy but appeared almost silver plated ... the breaker connects were blade but were spring loaded on larger ampacity ... even though it costs more, go higher ampacity on branch circuits to avoid heating ... on our coldest day last winter both of my heat pumps were using full supplemental heating ... I clamped my 200 Amp box at 153 Amps for several hours .... I could detect no heat rise ...I think the load centers are good stuff although I don't like the small breakers very much ...73 ...John

Gary, if you pull a permit the town may require you to install a bunch of GFI breakers and ARK faults. I was lucky to get my permit before ark faults were required but must have 8 GFI breakers for kitchen bathrooms and basement.
The kit I got from home chepo had 6 20 amp breakers. A guy in the biz may know where to get a better deal at an electrical house.

How'd it go, Gary??

Bill

It has become more of a project than I wanted right now.

I am currently caught between Electrical code, Code inspection, National grid requirements and the Burrows household budget at this time. It looks like doing the whole project is going to cost between $4000.00 and $5000.00. Local zoning / code is requiring that if I upgrade my service I have to go underground with the service. If I have the meter pulled I start all those items into motion.

I have been considering changing the load center hot - - --- -  still thinking that one out.

Whatever I come up with I will have to fix this problem very soon. Thinking about having an transfer switch installed in a NEMA 3R enclosure right next to the meter. Then I could kill the power to the panel and do the work myself until spring when we would have the underground 200 amp service installed. Not to mention we would be generator ready too!!

The real pisser is I can't use the big rig until this is fixed.

G

Gary,
I wonder if you could hire someone to disconnect the phases at the roof line? Then pop the new panel in and reconnect the power. All you need is one breaker in the new panel to run a light. Then you can rewire the whole system one breaker at a time. You could buy a second box with a 100 amp breaker to feed the 200 amp panel. This way the system is protected and you can fix the problem. $4 to $5K owWWW. I did it for under $1K but many hours standing in front of the panel.   New is always easier.

Sorry to hear that, but it doesn't surprise me.

You might be able to save some $ by doing it a piece at a time yourself. Like putting in the underground feed, for starters. Bear in mind that it's not illegal to trench and install a cable across your own property from point A to point B. And you're not pulling any meters. Perhaps you need to pull a permit, if so, the inspector can sign off on the work that you do, and sign off on the work an electrician does.

Here, they'll do a free locate for you to find anything underground before digging. Rent a trencher and drop in the new underground cable yourself. You don't need conduit. If the run is on the order of 100' of so, you can use 4/0 aluminum (That's two 4/0 conductors and a 2/0 neutral). You will need to use what they call "triple rated direct-burial cable". I don't remember how deep you need to bury it by code...Mine is 3' deep.
Price the cable at an electric supply house and/or Home Depot.

Coming out of the ground at the pole and at your house, you will need 3" conduit. Plastic should be fine. Figure out where the new panel is going to be and punch a hole in your home for the 3" conduit above or below the box where the entry is going to be. Leave enough bending room for fittings and etc. You can get all of the accessories like LBs and fittings at Home Depot. Doing this part yourself will likely save you a grand.

Your local state electric inspector *should* be able to answer any questions that you might have. Colorado has a handout booklet for electric do-it-yourselfers. Verify if he wants to inspect the buried cable for depth and proper type before the trench is backfilled.

If nothing else, use an electrician willing to let you help with grunt work for a discounted bill. Like trenching, laying in the feed, drilling holes in walls and mounting the new load center. A hundred bucks an hour is a hundred bucks an hour.

Anyway, good luck. Yes, it sucks. Borrow a generator to run the 21E during the interim...

In CT, I needed 3 inch gray PVC with a rope going through it. Under the meter socket a slip joint and at the pole a steel elbow and come just out of the ground with pvc. Light Co pulled the wire so there is a solid run from the top of the pole to the meter lugs. They also ran the PVC up the side of the pole.
They charged me $360 to pull the wire and make the connections. The meter is about 45 feet from the pole.
I did the whole job myself and just pulled the electrical permit. The building inspector told me what he wanted. Yea $100 an hour is $100 an hour.
I didn't even need to dig much just covered it with fill. I also had to put red flag tape above it.

No need, Frank.
He can install the 200amp panel kit and pickup and extra 100amp main breaker. Install the 100amper in the panel till spring then replace it with the 200 when the service is upgraded.

Bud, The GE panel 200 amp breaker is pretty big so didn't think you could find a 100 amp unit to fit. That would be the way to go though since all you would need to do is run 200 amp wire from the new meter socket. $4K to $5K would motivate me to want to do as much as the job I can then reward myself with a toy.

Even Screw In Breakers Get The Blues

After Gary's post, what are the chances, go figure...

Last Friday when exiting my office I noticed that the site lights were not on.
I opened the door to the utility room and got a whiff of something nasty, something hot and burning.

This is a very robust panel, 800 amp commercial service, two 400 amp breakers feeding each leg.
Noted that the 40 amp breaker for the lights was off, turned it on and heard a "sizzling" noise.
Removed the panel covers, quite on chore, and found the cause, the breaker was loose on the bus feed, discolored and melted.
The leg off the breaker was blued from heat, you can see the offending breaker on the lower set of three, note the discolored metal mounting tab.
Photos attached.

Electrician came early this morning, inspected the problem, was suitably impressed.
Suggested we replace the bus feed for that set of breakers, and then make certain that all of the hardware is tight and secure.
No up-selling required, wow!

So you see, even screw in breakers get the "blues".

When you load up the load center with breakers stack them so that the biggest current handlers are closest to the main or have the shortest buss length and are balanced on both sides.

I had a situation years ago in my wifes condo where some big breakers were below some of the lighter breakers.  Under heavy current demand weird things began to happen with various stuff in the house.  I happened to have a blank in the panel that was open and could see a buss bar glowing a dull red between the offending circuit and main. The load center had the good ole smell of heat emanating from it.  Not a pleasant situation to say the least.  A simple rearrangement of the breakers to balance out the busses fixed the problem.

That is one of the yearly chores at the plant including an IR scan looking for hot spots before the shut down when they check the hardware.

EXCELLENT suggestion.

Theoretically, with perfect load balance, the current and and hence any voltage drop in the neutral conductor would be zero.

It's not a bad idea to put some Penetrox, Noalox or Cramolin on the contact fingers of circuit breakers, too. Penetrox and Noalox contain Zinc particles, which act as sacrificial material preventing corrosion in AL-AL and AL-CU electrical connections. They also bite through aluminum oxide.

-Bill

When I connected the mains in my panel I coated the wire even though it was copper then planned coating breaker contacts but changed my mind when the mains dripped the goo. It looked like it would have made a mess.
I didn't want that goo going inside the breakers
Having electric heat and many GFI breakers. The heat breakers are on the left because they don't need a neutral and GFI on the right near the neutral buss so I could attach the short white wire coming out of the GFI breaker.
All the big loads are near the top and all heat circuits are 20 amps. The only #14 run in the house is the smoke alarms. Everything else is at least #12.
I guess it is a good idea to inspect the innards of the breaker panel once in a while.

Well I have replaced the old 100 amp load center with a new 200 amp center. We are still on a 100 amp service drop but that will be replaced in the spring when the weather allows trenching to the house.

Thanks to Joe WN2FQD, Buddly WD8BIL and Bill KA8WTK for their support and help with this project.

G

That's great, the worst part is done.