Electrician in the Central NY AREA

[W1JS]

One more thought while the box is being swapped out:  I live in a area prone to power outages.  When the power is out, I have no water, no heat, no lights and no radio.    When I had the 200 amp box installed, I got one with the generator transfer switch built right in.  The transfer switch is simply a bar that does not allow both the main 200 amp and the generator 30 amp breakers to be on at the same time.  The plug for the generator is on the outside of the house.  It's a manual system, including the damn manual start on the generator (next one will be electric start), but within reason/moderation and not all at once, I can run anything in the house except the double electric ovens.

Glad to hear you found  the problem before anything more serious happened.

Jack

[WA1GFZ]

Now Jack that is a cool idea.
Gary, My guess it will cost you $2K to $3K if the service lead to the pole isn't replaced. Our power co charged me $360 to pull a 50 foot underground run of 200A service lead.....but wire was cheaper a few years ago. I had to install  3 inch gray pvc pipe from the meter socket to the pole. 1 day to install the meter socket and new panel wire between them and new grounds. Another solid day to wire the panel. I think it took well over a day to wire 25 or so home runs to breakers. Then time to remove all the old stuff.

[Bill, KD0HG]

What is building code in other parts of the country for electric service?

Here, new residences and services must be 200 amp using 4/0 or 250 MCM feeders. 100 amp is no longer allowed. Your wrists *will* get a good workout rassling that stuff around elbows, LBs or inside boxes.

It is nice not seeing the lights blink when the dryer or oven kick on. Or the 304s..
My old house had a 60 amp service that was awful.

[WA1GFZ]

I used 4/0 copper between the meter socket and breaker panel. I was pooped after pulling and connecting 3- 5 foot wires. The elbow below the socket going through the wall was a trip. 
The power co feed was aluminum and the neutral was a bit smaller.

[W3SLK]

Bill, I think around here you can get away with only 100 A service but it is usually in town. Where the house dryer, stove, and water heater run off of natural gas. Gary, if you are going to consider using a generator even in the distant future, go with at least a manual transfer switch. Alot of people I know will back feed into the dryer receptacle, (illegal). The transfer switch will let you segregate your circuits and keep you from ruining the generator should the power return unexpectedly.

[Opcom]

I'd had intermittent dropouts on one side for a couple years and never could find it. One day I was outside near the box and heard a buzz overhead. I looked up and the wire from the utility was sparking where the splice was between the line and the entrance to the meter pipe. I called them and they replaced the 50 year old wire and crimp connector at no charge.

Here's a story about the worst electrician in town.

About 5 years ago I dragged home a 40KW 3 phase diesel generator and 200A Zenith automatic transfer switch with 120 hours on it. I had a foundation poured in the back yard and set it there on some pressure treated 4x4's. I mounted the xfer in the garage on the wall and after calling some friends who use commerical electricians, called electricians out for estimates because alot of residential ones won't mess with tranfers of that complexity. The one I picked was unfortunately a lemon.. They didn't know squat about rrewiring the generator even though I had the manual, and also had no idea what to do with the unused 'phase' of the transfer switch or how to wire up the small 120-208V transformers since the transfer's relays are 208V, not 220V. I had to stay watching them, they broke stuff, and didn't route the conduit where I specified, and I made them tear it out and redo it. I caught them smoking pot as well, and at one time a street-walking crackhead was trying to sell a stolen sander and they did business with him in my own garage against my orders and I had to go get a .45 and chase the bugger off and they really totally freaked out on the gun, maybe they were stoned - probably. One of them told me I should take a "bonge hit?" and chill out. One of them was messing with the wires to the meter and using a metal ladder and got knocked off it by the 220V. sloppy work.. I made them correct all of it before I paid them. The one that got zapped was messing with the meter pipe because they had to put in a 200A service since the generator was so large (code). Just as well, I was out of breakers.. Those clowns were totally mystified that I just took the manual out the the genset and rewired it, and rewired the transfer's control transformers. So the lab now has a 100A set of breakers which was the biggest I could fit in a regular box. Anyway the guy had quoted me $3000 for the turn-key job, and I paid him.

A few months later he found me at an antique radio convention (he called the house and found out where I was and actually came looking) and told me I still owed him $1500. He asked me how I could possibly believe that job could be done for $3000? I said 'how do I know, that was your quote and I have a receipt that you signed for $3000 saying paid in full. -So he started demanding and arguing and the like and getting ugly and threatening and saying he knows where I live, and also he could file a lein.., and so I cut him off and reminded him that I also knew who he is, knew where his master electrician's big contracts are, and 2 of the sites he works at, and also reminded him of the pot smoking, buying stolen merchandise, and if he's making threats just remember the crackhead, and that from then on, anything that ever happened to my stuff - I'd be straight to the police looking for his hand in it so just go file or do whatever, and if he wants to come by some time when I'm not there and mess with my property, my retired old redneck tenant has no car so you can't tell if he's home or not will be waiting and ain't so nice like me. So the guy calmed down but still wanted his? money.. and I just said no that's the end of it and the guy was unhappy but he left.

That pretty much was the end of it, but I was so ticked off I called my friend, the property maintenance engineer over a couple hi-rises downtown, who had reccommended this crew of pot-head lying dishonest buffoons, and told him all about it. Friend said he wondered about the few "roaches" he'd found here and there in unfinished spaces, so I said, well there's your man, and told him about the stolen tool and inviting the crackhead into my garage and me having to protect my property as well. He said well, they're out of here.. I have never heard from that bad electrician again. He's probably still out there all potted up and mis-wiring people's houses and buying stolen tools from other thieves.

I hope you have better luck.

[WB2RJR]

Gary,

You can email WN2FQD. He's my older brother, a licensed electrician, a ham (WB2FQD), and a member here.

He lives in Victor, but he works at the AB brewery in Baldwinsville so he is always in the Syracuse area.

Marty

[W2INR]

Thanks Marty

I ddi a search here in the member list using wb2fqd but I get no match. Would you know what his user name is or do you have his email address?

G

[WB2RJR]

Gary,

His user name is WN2FQD.

My son has his cell number in his phone, but he is still sleeping right now, it's not even 6AM here.

I'll PM it to you when he gets up. His home phone is listed as either Joseph or Louise Granica in Victor,NY, on State Route 444.

He is either a Journeyman or Master Electrician with IBEW, I don't remember which.

Marty

[WA1GFZ]

Bingo.
It is good to have a guy in the family. My cousin in the biz set me straight.
I was working on construction for a while putting an addition on a house.
The lazy ass doing the wiring would spend 1/2 his time sitting around smoking butts and eating. One day he told us how drunk he and his pals got working on the Nuke plant and all the money they made doing the same job 3 times.
There are bad apples in every bunch. I was very lucky building my place having my neighbor filter out all the idiots for me.

[W1TAV]

For what it is worth, I have been an electrician since 1981.  As I recall, Challenger Switch Gear was the "Spawn of Federal Pacific's Bowels" Indeed, it was a totally different style then the old FPE, however after a few incidents of  CB's not tripping on a dead short, I stopped using it.

I haven't been to active as an electrician for about 10 years. I used to start 200 amp service upgrades at $750. Today I would think $1200 would be a good start.

Good luck with your work,

Steve W1TAV

[KA1ZGC]

Some comments,

Yes, the house was a 100 amp service and I am going to upgrade to 200 amp.

No, the transmitter breaker was not in the slot across from the main breaker. That is the main breaker falling apart and the insulation between the buss bars that is cooked.

I figure on a Sunday afternoon the oven is going (50amps), the dryer is going (30 amps), the big rig is going (30amps +/-) and the TV's, computers, lights - - wow I wonder why the box started cooking!!

The problem became evident when I was going to swap out the transmitter breaker with a new one that I found this mess in the box.  I was having a dropouts on the big rig and John W3JN recommended that maybe I had a weak breaker. It was John's recommendation that made me open up the load center and I am thankful I did.

So it looks like my simple replace the breaker(under $20.00) has turned into a larger project. Should be fun!!

Anyway thank you all for the input.

G

Then I misunderstood the breaker location, but it's still important to note that only the big rig was experiencing the dropout and not the whole house. That breaker is bad, and the main breaker crapout is more of a conincidence. If the main breaker was causing the dropout, the whole house would have gone down, not just the big rig.

Still, going to a 200 amp service will solve the main-breaker-meltdown issue, since 200 amp service drops are universally done with bolt-on main breaker to a 24+ position panel. You won't have that problem again.

Once you get the new panel in place, put the new breaker in for the big rig. Sounds like it did go bad, and gave you a chance to catch the damage also being done at the mains entry point when you went in after it. There's your silver lining!

Also worth feeling the new breaker after a few hours of operation to see how hot it's getting. I got into that habit after a few meltdowns in Framingham. If it's too warm to comfortably keep the back of your fingers against for more than a couple of seconds, then it isn't going to last long. What to do about it at that point is another story, but a good experienced electrician will steer you in the right direction for not much money.

Good luck!

[WB2G]

Gary;Is your old 100 amp service copper or aluminum to the main breaker and do you know the size of the wire,a lot of old copper 100amp services were actually good for 150 amps.I will try to give you a call Thursday after work to set up a time to look at the problem.Joe WB2FQD.

[W2INR]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for getting back to me, I appreciate it.

The service comes in on triplex ( aluminum ) and transitions at the house to entrance cable down to the meter. I believe the meter is rated at 200 amps. The entrance feed from the meter is also aluminum right to the main breaker.

I will look for your call Thursday.

G

[WA1GFZ]

I went back and looked at the picture. The wire in the panel looks like 100 amps to me.....or I really over did it. That would be a pisser if you have 200 amps to the meter. Then all you would need to do is pop the meter out and replace everything after it. That would be a easy 1 day job. 

[W3SLK]

Heh, Heh, when I rented off of the father-in-law, we only had 60 Amp (!) service into the house and 60A into the barn. I needed to run a sub-panel just for my radios. The meter base we had set on a separate pole, as opposed to a weather head into the house. The electrik co. came out installed a new pole and new transformer, I got the meter base and weather head on the house, and a nice new Square D loadcenter with lightning protection for $650. Of course it helps when your unkle is the electrician 

[W2INR]

You are right Frank, I am hoping that is the case but I doubt it.I just don't know about the service feed.

The load center is rated @100 amps. This was going to have to be done sooner or later. We are adding central air in the spring and that would have demanded a new panel. I think the meter, which is digital, is the default meter they use no matter what service you have.

I found a GE panel contractors kit. 200 amp w/ Main breaker installed, Copper bus, and 10- 20 amp , 1-30 amp and 1-50 amp breaker included. I am just going to wait until Joe can look things over and give me advice on this before I do anything.

G

[w4bfs]

G .... see if that GE kit has copper bar ... about this time last year I installed a GEv200 Amp and a separate 125 Amp set of load centers that had copper bar both on box outside and embossed on the bars inside ... the bars were some copper alloy but appeared almost silver plated ... the breaker connects were blade but were spring loaded on larger ampacity ... even though it costs more, go higher ampacity on branch circuits to avoid heating ... on our coldest day last winter both of my heat pumps were using full supplemental heating ... I clamped my 200 Amp box at 153 Amps for several hours .... I could detect no heat rise ...I think the load centers are good stuff although I don't like the small breakers very much ...73 ...John

[WA1GFZ]

Gary, if you pull a permit the town may require you to install a bunch of GFI breakers and ARK faults. I was lucky to get my permit before ark faults were required but must have 8 GFI breakers for kitchen bathrooms and basement.
The kit I got from home chepo had 6 20 amp breakers. A guy in the biz may know where to get a better deal at an electrical house.

[Bill, KD0HG]

How'd it go, Gary??

[W2INR]

Bill

It has become more of a project than I wanted right now.

I am currently caught between Electrical code, Code inspection, National grid requirements and the Burrows household budget at this time. It looks like doing the whole project is going to cost between $4000.00 and $5000.00. Local zoning / code is requiring that if I upgrade my service I have to go underground with the service. If I have the meter pulled I start all those items into motion.

I have been considering changing the load center hot - - --- -  still thinking that one out.

Whatever I come up with I will have to fix this problem very soon. Thinking about having an transfer switch installed in a NEMA 3R enclosure right next to the meter. Then I could kill the power to the panel and do the work myself until spring when we would have the underground 200 amp service installed. Not to mention we would be generator ready too!!

The real pisser is I can't use the big rig until this is fixed.

G

[WA1GFZ]

Gary,
I wonder if you could hire someone to disconnect the phases at the roof line? Then pop the new panel in and reconnect the power. All you need is one breaker in the new panel to run a light. Then you can rewire the whole system one breaker at a time. You could buy a second box with a 100 amp breaker to feed the 200 amp panel. This way the system is protected and you can fix the problem. $4 to $5K owWWW. I did it for under $1K but many hours standing in front of the panel.   New is always easier.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Sorry to hear that, but it doesn't surprise me.

You might be able to save some $ by doing it a piece at a time yourself. Like putting in the underground feed, for starters. Bear in mind that it's not illegal to trench and install a cable across your own property from point A to point B. And you're not pulling any meters. Perhaps you need to pull a permit, if so, the inspector can sign off on the work that you do, and sign off on the work an electrician does.

Here, they'll do a free locate for you to find anything underground before digging. Rent a trencher and drop in the new underground cable yourself. You don't need conduit. If the run is on the order of 100' of so, you can use 4/0 aluminum (That's two 4/0 conductors and a 2/0 neutral). You will need to use what they call "triple rated direct-burial cable". I don't remember how deep you need to bury it by code...Mine is 3' deep.
Price the cable at an electric supply house and/or Home Depot.

Coming out of the ground at the pole and at your house, you will need 3" conduit. Plastic should be fine. Figure out where the new panel is going to be and punch a hole in your home for the 3" conduit above or below the box where the entry is going to be. Leave enough bending room for fittings and etc. You can get all of the accessories like LBs and fittings at Home Depot. Doing this part yourself will likely save you a grand.

Your local state electric inspector *should* be able to answer any questions that you might have. Colorado has a handout booklet for electric do-it-yourselfers. Verify if he wants to inspect the buried cable for depth and proper type before the trench is backfilled.

If nothing else, use an electrician willing to let you help with grunt work for a discounted bill. Like trenching, laying in the feed, drilling holes in walls and mounting the new load center. A hundred bucks an hour is a hundred bucks an hour.

Anyway, good luck. Yes, it sucks. Borrow a generator to run the 21E during the interim...

[WA1GFZ]

In CT, I needed 3 inch gray PVC with a rope going through it. Under the meter socket a slip joint and at the pole a steel elbow and come just out of the ground with pvc. Light Co pulled the wire so there is a solid run from the top of the pole to the meter lugs. They also ran the PVC up the side of the pole.
They charged me $360 to pull the wire and make the connections. The meter is about 45 feet from the pole.
I did the whole job myself and just pulled the electrical permit. The building inspector told me what he wanted. Yea $100 an hour is $100 an hour.
I didn't even need to dig much just covered it with fill. I also had to put red flag tape above it.

[WD8BIL]

You could buy a second box with a 100 amp breaker to feed the 200 amp panel.

No need, Frank.
He can install the 200amp panel kit and pickup and extra 100amp main breaker. Install the 100amper in the panel till spring then replace it with the 200 when the service is upgraded.