Define "Tall Ship"

[Opcom]

It's not well defined, this vernacular term "Tall Ship".
In some places it means a overly large draft of beverage.
I know what is being talked about, a station that is louder or as loud (in the S-meter) as any other, and heard by all, not only by one or two.. Is that even right?


There is more to it than equipment?

What does the operator have to do with it?

The signal as judged by others?

what is a minimum carrier level if AM?

Are there tall ships of other modes like RTTY and CW?

Height of antenna?

Type of antenna?

Distance heard while the signal is still very good?


What is really meant? Can this term even be defined in a meaningful way, suitable for dictionary use?

[WA3VJB]

I know what is being talked about,

that's the most important answer

[Opcom]

so be it.

[kb3ouk]

I don't know what makes your station a tall ship, but I do know that if the Timtron has deemed your signal piss weak, then a tall ship you are not. That was even when I was pushing almost 200 watts out of the amp.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

It's not well defined, this vernacular term "Tall Ship".

What is really meant? Can this term even be defined in a meaningful way, suitable for dictionary use?

More of an euphemism which should not be taken seriously. Probably originally conceived based on power, weight and height of transmitter during the early days of the Heavy Metal rallies. Silliness to the extreme.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I don't know what makes your station a tall ship, but I do know that if the Timtron has deemed your signal piss weak, then a tall ship you are not. That was even when I was pushing almost 200 watts out of the amp.

It's like being measured with a wobbly stick.

[W2PFY]

I think in years past a Tall Ship was when all the guys in NE were young, it was running power and having the capability to wipe a piss weaker off the map particularly if they were a slop bucket station. I think it was pretty much the same as the west coast California Kill O Watt stations we heard about here on the east coast. I almost became a Tall Ship when I ran my Westinghouse. I could crank it up to way past 1500 watts but I always ran the transmitter with the antenna one inch off the ground to stay legal.

I think for the most part the Tall Ships around here are solid state types with hollow state operators pretty much put out to pasture nowadays.

[K6JEK]

Here is a graphic representation of Mike, KO6NM's signal and mine:

[W7TFO]

It is all in the wearing, as it were.

I've been to the KO6NM QSA many times.

He runs a converted Collins 20V-3 into a simple wire dipole between two palm trees @ about 50'. 

RE-20 into his own DAP-610 for processing.

Simple works OK from Woodland Hills.

73DG

[steve_qix]

A "Tall Ship" simply has a signal stronger (bigger) than most and the audio to go with it.  Tall Ships are hard if not impossible to strap, they plow away the interference, and can be heard under almost all conditions.

There are Tall Ships in every region of the country.  We have a fair share of them here in New England, but certainly Robert W0VMC qualifies; some of the West Coast stations already mentioned can always be heard out here and with "real" signals, and when W0XV had his pair of 4-1000s on the air, I could hear him from Louisiana up here in Mass into the late mornings (that is amazing for the distance), and with a strong signal.  There are a number of others as well - Bill KD0HG comes to mind, K4HX, etc. etc. 

My memory isn't sufficient to enumerate all of them, but you know a Tall Ship when they're on.  Everyone is 20 over and all of a sudden someone comes on who is 40 over and with big audio from the same area.  The background noise goes quiet and you think your receiver just died.  Suddenly the room is filled with silky smooth sounds that caress your senses and you know at that moment why you're on AM 

[WD5JKO]

I'd like to include into the "tall Ship" category systems with clean, equalized, and loud modulation where the positive peaks extend upward to 140%, and have negative peak baseline control to minimize splatter. One example is Timtron's Viking 1.5 that uses 811 modulators instead of 807's along with the QIX three diode circuit. Tim peaks at 150%, and it sounds very good with most receivers, even those that use simple diode detectors. His modulation penetrates above the noise.

Many times I hear "Tall Ships" based upon S-Meter reading, then I find myself twisting all the knobs on my receiver to enhance copy from either a low average modulation, or too much energy wasted below 200 hz resulting in muffled audio when trying to copy at a distance.

I contend that with "enhanced modulation" techniques, that a "Tall Ship" could include a 100 - 150 watt carrier output class transmitter.

Jim
WD5JKO

[kb3ouk]

Is Timtron doing anything to the audio before it goes into the transmitter, or is he just feeding it directly from the mic?

[W3RSW]

About every qso from him that i hear mentions the merits of a D104 regardless of one actually being in use that day.  Very sensible and decries only those that use insufficient power for the conditions.  Also very tolerant of distance and ionospheric variables when in qso.

[Bill, KD0HG]

You know a Tall Ship when they're on.  Everyone is 20 over and all of a sudden someone comes on who is 40 over and with big audio from the same area.  The background noise goes quiet and you think your receiver just died.  Suddenly the room is filled with silky smooth sounds that caress your senses and you know at that moment why you're on AM  

Bingo! You nailed it, Steve.

Bill

[K5UJ]

As far as I know the term was originally coined by K4KYV referenced here:

http://amfone.net/AMPX/102.htm

I personally think upward modulation over 110 or 115% is inadvisable.  Given a choice between high positive peaks and less carrier and lower peaks with more carrier I would recommend the latter for the following reasons:

In ham radio where we don't run 5 KW or more and most communication is via skywave the carrier is important for keeping the frequency quiet.

High average, not high peaks is what really matters.  compression is just as important as a peak limiter, although with some p.l.s you can drive them into gain reduction and achieve compression but it is not quite the same as a multi-band audio compressor.

In big groups where most hams are running average ham audio the guy who is wildly asymmetric can be a nuisance.  The frequency gets passed around everything FB and then Mr. 150 or 200% gets his turn and WOW He's LOUD, and you are knocking stuff out of the way to get to your rx before your speakers blow.

Lots of hams, especially OTs are listening with receivers using envelope detectors that fold at 90%.  Look at Jay W1VDs rx specs--many break into 10% or more distortion at 80% modulation.  Give these guys a break.

Run big carrier, high average, symmetric or slightly asymmetric peaks and to me that is being dialed in.

[The Slab Bacon]

The ability to pull off a "BANG, lookie here, squashed just like a bug"   

[W7TFO]

"No Money Mike" KO6NM does not run artificial asymmetrical modulation.

73DG

[K1JJ]

A tall ship is whatever you wish it to be.  And it will change as you change.

"Tall ship" is just another of about 100+ words and phrases with special meaning to Amers.  Yallowy, pissweak, microphonium, o'line, 24 pills, etc... it goes on and on.   This is a good thang.

These words and phrases are what makes AM a special nitche from other parts of the hobby. It gives AM character - just like bikers have their own jargon, surfers, skiers, boaters, base jumpers, pilots, drag racers, etc.

And, each hobby has their own "tall ships."    The biggest and baddest race cars are tall ships. The guy who can ride his board thru a 30' wave is a tall ship.  The biker with the long rake and big chrome is a tall ship.

A tall ship is whatever you wish it to be.  When I was a WN1 Johnny novice, a 200 watt General was a tall ship. But that standard has changed, as it always will, as we grow in the hobby.

T

[WA3VJB]

"Caw ! Maw !

T

; )

[WD5JKO]

As far as I know the term was originally coined by K4KYV referenced here:

http://amfone.net/AMPX/102.htm

I personally think upward modulation over 110 or 115% is inadvisable.  Given a choice between high positive peaks and less carrier and lower peaks with more carrier I would recommend the latter for the following reasons:

In ham radio where we don't run 5 KW or more and most communication is via skywave the carrier is important for keeping the frequency quiet.

High average, not high peaks is what really matters.  compression is just as important as a peak limiter, although with some p.l.s you can drive them into gain reduction and achieve compression but it is not quite the same as a multi-band audio compressor.

In big groups where most hams are running average ham audio the guy who is wildly asymmetric can be a nuisance.  The frequency gets passed around everything FB and then Mr. 150 or 200% gets his turn and WOW He's LOUD, and you are knocking stuff out of the way to get to your rx before your speakers blow.

Lots of hams, especially OTs are listening with receivers using envelope detectors that fold at 90%.  Look at Jay W1VDs rx specs--many break into 10% or more distortion at 80% modulation.  Give these guys a break.

Run big carrier, high average, symmetric or slightly asymmetric peaks and to me that is being dialed in.

   Rob, all good points!  That said, with headroom well beyond 100% upward, it is possible without many exotic processing boxes to get the average up around 100%. The receiver distortion figures that Jay presents are informative for sure, but they are done with a continuous sine wave, not human speech. Also a good part of the distortion in these receivers is from the audio modulating the AGC bus. A great solution here is at the transmitting end to cut back on the audio power below say 250 hz; don't eliminate it, but maybe make it 6 db less (80 -250 hz) than at 1 Khz. Another-words a D104 into 2-3 meg-ohm often does that. Then non-periodic speech will have much less influence when it comes to AGC bus distortion.  Another issue with diode detectors is that if the load includes some capacitance, then the detector output hangs a bit coming down from a voice peak in a RC decay time constant. When you combine this receiver characteristic with an abrupt transmitter negative peak limiter like the 3 diode circuit, then the diode detector's R-C decay lag actually helps matters since the abrupt limit near the baseline does not come out of the detector making audio with that 'kink' in it. The result is the audio just might sound better!

So last night on 3885, I was listening to Don (KYV) and another station (a 'w1'). The other station was S9+10 into Texas, and I could only copy maybe every third word. He will remain nameless other than he was sitting in his new chair.  His audio was really good at times, but a lot of lows really hampered things since the average level seemed quite low to me. A mere 3 db increase in the average along with a 6 db reduction in the lows would have been huge in terms of readability.

So what is better, transmitting at 3% THD with 30% copy versus transmitting at 10% THD with 90% copy?
 
Jim
WD5JKO

[W2PFY]

High Jack starts:

Lots of hams, especially OTs are listening with receivers using envelope detectors that fold at 90%.  Look at Jay W1VDs rx specs--many break into 10% or more distortion at 80% modulation.  Give these guys a break.

Funny, I never heard any of this with my old receivers but I am told it happens with solid state receivers but have not experienced it there either. HIGH JACK ends:

[kb3ouk]

Yea, on 75 meters, running something like 500 watts into a set of phased dipoles at 100 feet would definitely make you a tall ship. On 10 meters, 200 watts (or even less) into a 3 element beam at 50 feet has almost the same potential, depending on conditions.

[K5UJ]

Hi Jim tnx for the information.  I did not know that about distortion vis a vis sine wave and human speech.

Yes I roll off the low frequencies but my motivation was to conserve power since they don't convey much information and cause the higher mod. levels (and power) to be in the mid-range where the audio is more penetrating. 

73

Rob

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

A tall ship is whatever you wish it to be.  And it will change as you change.

Exactly. One man's tag line is another man's punch line. Some see it as a goal to achieve, some see it as a term to elevate some perceived standing, others see it as pointless so long as you can be heard.

Having a big transmitter that is loud but seldom heard doesn't cut it. One only needs to listen to the monthly Collins AM net to understand this. And DX-60s, 32Vs, etc won't cover the distance with the needed strength reliably. A fully-modulated substantial carrier able to be heard with ease over a reasonable or expected distance, that is on the air regularly enough to become 'known' would be something to strive for. Beyond that - ??

[W4AAB]

W0XV is in Mississippi, although not far from Louisiana. K5IIA is loud here, and he is in Lousiana. I just bought a Globe King 500(drove to North Carolina to get it last Friday). I am trying to do a trade for a 140 foot BC tower to put up here on the ridge.
                                    Joe W4AAB