Define "Tall Ship"

[steve_qix]

W0XV is in Mississippi, although not far from Louisiana. K5IIA is loud here, and he is in Lousiana. I just bought a Globe King 500(drove to North Carolina to get it last Friday). I am trying to do a trade for a 140 foot BC tower to put up here on the ridge.
                                    Joe W4AAB

Apparently, W0XV (I can't remember his name right at the moment!) sold the pair of 4-1000s transmitter to ?? somebody ?? who may even put it on the air sometime!!  But, I can't say that I recall hearing that rig on the air since it's been sold, but maybe it will pop up this fall/winter.  That would be nice to hear...

[K3YA]

Having a big transmitter that is loud but seldom heard doesn't cut it.

You just "Touched a Nerve" as we say in the dental profession.  It's been months since my plate modulated 4-1000 rig has had it's filaments lit.  Kinda makes me feel guilty about it.

[W3GMS]

For me, a Tall Ship is more than a station with an outstanding signal.  It extends into operating his or her station in a manner that projects respectful behavior.   When one builds a station which sounds good and is typically strong but has bullying like tendencies, they get crossed off my list as a "Tall Ship" real fast.   Some examples may include, purposely operating to close to an existing QSO just because one typically gets on a particular frequency nearly every night.  I have heard this done to existing SSB QSO's as well as AM QSO's.  Designed in extreme TX bandwidth to keep other QSO very far from you center frequency.   Coming on the air just looking to pick a fight is another observed characteristic I have seen. Its like if they can't into some ass kicking bitch session they get bored.  

Joe, W3GMS      

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Definition of TALL SHIP found online:

  a sailing vessel with at least two masts; especially : square-rigger

No mention of radio.

Having a big transmitter that is loud but seldom heard doesn't cut it.

You just "Touched a Nerve" as we say in the dental profession.  It's been months since my plate modulated 4-1000 rig has had it's filaments lit.  Kinda makes me feel guilty about it.

I'm in the same boat(not ship), Charlie. Though PJP & I made some progress Tuesday night tracking down a couple of stubborn gremlins on one of the big rigs here, it still needs work. Combined with a busy sked, summer band noise, and life changes, it hasn't made for much radio time. I don't feel guilty since I'm not sitting around posting online or simply checking into a net once a month instead of getting on the air. It's more a case of not being part of the solution to so little activity by getting on more.

Fact is, radio is a hobby for most of us. Few of us are or want to be defined by a hobby, and it's not a live-or-die situation. The essential truth is, activity attracts more activity, and cooler temps/lower static levels tend to bring folks back to the airwaves.

On the air or not, you still rate very high in my book for what you pulled off with that dumpster-salvaged/stripped 30K-4 in a matter of days vs months or years. In my opinion, that kind of thing matters much more to the hobby than hooking up any amount of processing gear or running a large signal. Not that this is a bad thing either.

 

[K5IIA]

W0XV is in Mississippi, although not far from Louisiana. K5IIA is loud here, and he is in Lousiana. I just bought a Globe King 500(drove to North Carolina to get it last Friday). I am trying to do a trade for a 140 foot BC tower to put up here on the ridge.
                                    Joe W4AAB

Apparently, W0XV (I can't remember his name right at the moment!) sold the pair of 4-1000s transmitter to ?? somebody ?? who may even put it on the air sometime!!  But, I can't say that I recall hearing that rig on the air since it's been sold, but maybe it will pop up this fall/winter.  That would be nice to hear...

name is jeff. w0xv in brookhaven, ms. might have spelled that wrong.

sold the rig to ron n4rt. he had it on a few time and that was about it. he should have retired or maybe very close to. so hopefully the rig will see some air time. i was able to go visit jeff when it was at his hosue and wow what a monster. jeff has a good antenna to. atleast 80 feet or so up in some pine trees fed with open wire line.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Tall ship?

Radio Luxembourg.

1.2 Megawatts into a 3-tower directional array. 234 KC on your radio dial.

[kb3ouk]

Tall ship?

Radio Luxembourg.

1.2 Megawatts into a 3-tower directional array. 234 KC on your radio dial.

I listen to that station a lot on this site: http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/
That's a pic of the Junglinster transmitter site, which I understand is a backup. The main transmitter is now at Beidweiler. http://www.drmradio.co.uk/beidweiler.html
And they aren't running just 1.2 MW, the Beidweiler site is capable of 2 megawatts , but whether they run it full bore all the time is another story. Evidentally, they are beaming most of their power towards Paris. RTL is now using Junglinster as the transmitter site for their DRM service on 49 meters.

[Opcom]

Some examples may include, purposely operating to close to an existing QSO just because one typically gets on a particular frequency nearly every night.  I have heard this done to existing SSB QSO's as well as AM QSO's.  Designed in extreme TX bandwidth to keep other QSO very far from you center frequency.   Coming on the air just looking to pick a fight is another observed characteristic I have seen.  Its like if they can't into some ass kicking bitch session they get bored.  

Joe, W3GMS      

Aye matey, those be no Tall Ships, they be Pie-Rat Ships! Scourge of the Aether Seas!

I'd have to agree that a "Tall Ship" has to come from an overall situation that has earned respect, not emnity.

I wish I could draw a cartoon of it. Pie-eating rats in pirate garb in a shipboard radio room. haha be glad there's no artistic skill here! a little humor makes things better.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

[W3RSW]

Pete,

Cute pix and pumpkin pie just in time for the Harvest Season.

I got 4 pumpkins for $12 at Home Depot of all places yesterday.

[K2PG]

Tall ship?

Radio Luxembourg.

1.2 Megawatts into a 3-tower directional array. 234 KC on your radio dial.

I would LOVE to work there! As the static levels drop, I should be able to hear them at night at my place in NJ.. I often hear the European LW stations, although most of them broadcast in French, which is a language that I do not understand. Hmmm...would RL accept a résumé in English or German?

[Bill, KD0HG]

i wonder why QRO longwave broadcasting never happened in this part of the world, only it seems in Europe.

Phil, to work over there, employees are required to provide their own aluminum foil underwear.

Bill

[kb3ouk]

If I remember right, It's because the power companies use the lower part of LF for control signals sent over the lines, and the upper parts are aero beacons. That's also why we don't have an amateur band down around 137 khz like they do over there. There is a part 15 band from 160 to 190 khz, 1 watt into something like a 40 or 50 foot long antenna.

[Tim WA1HnyLR]

Well!!
 It is about time I got into the discussion here. To me the description of a tall ship is relative to the other typical amateur radio stations that surround it. I look at a tall ship as an outstanding signal that is many DB above the norm . A signal that is strapping far and wide with BIG audio that cuts through the TEE-RASH ( alligator slop bucket term) like few others. A tall ship is a combination of big transmitter and antenna basically . The towers are the masts of the tall ship .  To be a tall ship on 75 meters one must have the capability of generating 1500 watts PEP double sideband power in order to be competitive with the sideband operators. Most people are of the illusion that 375 watts carrier modulated %100 is 1500 watts PEP.  In reality a 375 watt carrier modulated %100 is 187 1/2 watts PEP  DSB. It is from a voltage and phase relationship standpoint that make an AM signal but is not from an actual sideband power standpoint. A full legal limit AM signal is developed when running 3000 watts carrier modulated 100%. My 4-1000 transmitter delivered about 2 Kw carrier modulated %150 at full strap. This would be close to the 1500 watt PEP double sideband limit. The other part of the equation is the antenna. A dipole at 1/2 wave above ground would qualify, as well as directive wire array at a height that out plays a dipole at the same height.A vertical array such as a 4 square with proper ground system would qualify as well. There are many other antenna situations that qualify as well. With being a tall ship comes a greater responsibility in station operation,cleanliness of signal and regard to bandwidth when being nearby another QSO. In many cases it is not necessary to run full strap power for much of the time. Its all about signal to noise ratio in the end. If running 10 watts is putting in a signal that is many DB above the noise floor , then so be it. At that period of time YOU are the tall ship. De Tim WA1HnyLR

[Chuck...K1KW]

Anyone else see this in timmy's post above?

"Most people are of the illusion that 375 watts carrier modulated %100 is 1500 watts PEP.  In reality a 375 watt carrier modulated %100 is 187 1/2 watts PEP  DSB. It is from a voltage and phase relationship standpoint that make an AM signal but is not from an actual sideband power standpoint. A full legal limit AM signal is developed when running 3000 watts carrier modulated 100%."

Anyone else care to reply to the obvious error in this statement or shall I totally debunk it in my next post.  Sheesh!  The above statement is so wrong and will mislead others particulary when coming from an alleged "expert".

Chuck, K1KW

[K5UJ]

Anyone else care to reply to the obvious error in this statement

Right.  He should have written 6000 watts carrier.  then each side band would be 1.5KW and there would be equivalence with the slopbucket legal limit p.e.p. bs.

[steve_qix]

I know what Tim is getting at.  There was a bit of a math error  

I like to look at the signal in two domains: Time and Frequency - then you see a rather different picture of what's happening.  The graphic below is a good illustration.  Both the time domain (what one sees on a standard oscilloscope) and frequency domain (what you see on a spectrum analyzer) are shown.



Arguably, it is better to examine signals such as these in the frequency domain because you get a more accurate picture of what's really going on, where the power is, and how much power there really is.  The method works equally well for SSB, AM and a host of other signal types.

This whole concept has been discussed quite a bit elsewhere in this forum so it's probably not worth reiterating  

[Steve - K4HX]

It's all about understanding average power and the Part 97 definition of PEP. You'll get the same answer in the time or frequency domains, namely that at 100% modulation PEP is 4x the carrier average power.

[ke7trp]

When I had an inspection (I passed with flying colors), The inspector told me they use HP or Bird meters and the hard and fast rule is 1500 pep no matter the mode. I agree with most that this is wrong for AM mode. 

He told me that if you have an RMS or AVG meter OR a scope,  Take the reading of the carrier and times by 2.828 to arrive at pep.  I knew this before he mentioned it and have used that for years. It works out perfectly every time.

Modulate the rig to 100%. take the carrier and times by 2.828 and get the pep.  Most commercial watt meters use this principal so they also read 2.828 times over.  Take your HP, Bird coax dynamics ect peak reading meter and try it.. When you hitt 100% mod, that meter will read 2.828 times higher period. 

I struggle with the carrier x 4 statement.  If I do that, I am over 100% mod...  Maybe me, the fcc and the inspector are wrong. I really do not know.. However, If my O scope says 100 percent mod, that Bird 43P is reading exactly 2.828 times over the carrier.  The meter I have is the meter they use. so I have to go by that.  I never run over power here and its important that I dont.   So a 500 watt carrier is fine when the pep meter is not reading over 1500.

Oh and I like it when a guy on a ranger or DX60 is the tall ship

[KF1Z]

When I had an inspection (I passed with flying colors), The inspector told me they use HP or Bird meters and the hard and fast rule is 1500 pep no matter the mode. I agree with most that this is wrong for AM mode. 

He told me that if you have an RMS or AVG meter OR a scope,  Take the reading of the carrier and times by 2.828 to arrive at pep.  I knew this before he mentioned it and have used that for years. It works out perfectly every time.

Modulate the rig to 100%. take the carrier and times by 2.828 and get the pep.  Most commercial watt meters use this principal so they also read 2.828 times over.  Take your HP, Bird coax dynamics ect peak reading meter and try it.. When you hitt 100% mod, that meter will read 2.828 times higher period. 

I struggle with the carrier x 4 statement.  If I do that, I am over 100% mod...  Maybe me, the fcc and the inspector are wrong. I really do not know.. However, If my O scope says 100 percent mod, that Bird 43P is reading exactly 2.828 times over the carrier.  The meter I have is the meter they use. so I have to go by that.  I never run over power here and its important that I dont.   So a 500 watt carrier is fine when the pep meter is not reading over 1500.

Oh and I like it when a guy on a ranger or DX60 is the tall ship

Maybe for an "AVG" meter.... ( instead of a "peak reading meter")

But I don't think agree with a scope.

Most people seem to say that at 100% modulation, the voltage is double that of the resting carrier.

( "2 divisions at carrier... 4 divisions at 100% modulation")


If the voltage doubles, isn't the power output increased 4X ?

P=(Vrms x Vrms) / R    <  is that not correct?

[ke7trp]

I believe so..  But if you then compare that transmitter and that o scope to the meter that uncle charlie uses and carried into my home, It does not show 4x.  It shows 2.828.   

If a guy tries to tune his rig for 4 x on a pep meter he will over shoot.  I dont like the 375/1500 suggestion that they give us and people try to use.


C

[kb3ouk]

When I had an inspection (I passed with flying colors), The inspector told me they use HP or Bird meters and the hard and fast rule is 1500 pep no matter the mode. I agree with most that this is wrong for AM mode. 

He told me that if you have an RMS or AVG meter OR a scope,  Take the reading of the carrier and times by 2.828 to arrive at pep.  I knew this before he mentioned it and have used that for years. It works out perfectly every time.

Modulate the rig to 100%. take the carrier and times by 2.828 and get the pep.  Most commercial watt meters use this principal so they also read 2.828 times over.  Take your HP, Bird coax dynamics ect peak reading meter and try it.. When you hitt 100% mod, that meter will read 2.828 times higher period. 

I struggle with the carrier x 4 statement.  If I do that, I am over 100% mod...  Maybe me, the fcc and the inspector are wrong. I really do not know.. However, If my O scope says 100 percent mod, that Bird 43P is reading exactly 2.828 times over the carrier.  The meter I have is the meter they use. so I have to go by that.  I never run over power here and its important that I dont.   So a 500 watt carrier is fine when the pep meter is not reading over 1500.

Oh and I like it when a guy on a ranger or DX60 is the tall ship

That makes the limit 530 watts based on what you were told. The best way the FCC could've prevented the confusin would've been to just state a seperate AM limit in terms of carrier power. Isn't that how the Canadians do it?

[ke7trp]

I agree 100%....  Its confusing...   

C

[k4kyv]

But I don't think agree with a scope.

Most people seem to say that at 100% modulation, the voltage is double that of the resting carrier.

( "2 divisions at carrier... 4 divisions at 100% modulation")


If the voltage doubles, isn't the power output increased 4X ?

P=(Vrms x Vrms) / R    <  is that not correct?

That argument could date back prior to the 1920s when it was a subject of debate amongst engineers whether or not sidebands existed in physical reality, or just in the mathematics that describe the modulation process.  One argument was that an infinitely narrow carrier actually fluctuates in step with the applied modulation waveform, while the opposing argument was that the carrier remains steady and unchanging, and only appears to vary when the measuring instrument (scope, rf voltmeter or the Titanic's crystal set) is not selective enough to distinguish amongst the carrier and the adjacent USB and LSB signals as distinctly separate emissions.  By the late teens or early 1920's, when receivers with adequate selectivity were developed, it was demonstrated once and for all that sidebands in fact do exist in physical reality.  

The fee-cee's definition of p.e.p., the average power of a single rf cycle at the crest of a modulation peak suggests that they are still assuming the now-disproved notion that there is a single carrier wave that actually varies in step with the modulation waveform, as shown in Steve's time-domain diagram.  Physical reality is shown in Steve's frequency domain.  In fact, no component of the sideband products of a full carrier DSB signal ever approaches the amplitude of the steady carrier, even at modulation peaks. The time-domain diagram compared to the frequency domain is like comparing a 2-D photograph with a 3-D one; it shows only a shadow of physical reality.

OTOH, Tim's proposition ignores the carrier altogether, and accounts only for the sideband power.  A 3000 watt carrier does in fact display 1500 watts of additional  peak sideband power at full modulation, since the sideband power of a full carrier AM signal is shown to equal one half the carrier power at 100% modulation.  Let's now take the carrier into account with our power reading; if a 1000 watt carrier is modulated 100%, the p.e.p. of the two sidebands combined is 500 watts.  From the frequency domain point of view, you have a steady 1000 watt carrier and an additional DSB signal (USB + LSB), all of which can be clearly displayed on a spectrum analyser.  Therefore the total power at modulation peaks is 1000 watts of steady carrier plus 500 watts of peak sideband power = 1500 watts total power at modulation peaks.

When I had an inspection (I passed with flying colors), The inspector told me they use HP or Bird meters and the hard and fast rule is 1500 pep no matter the mode...

But how do they connect up that HP or Bird meter if there is no 50-ohm coax link somewhere between the final rf stage and antenna?  In fact, I  recently got rid of my old inefficient coax link to the tower and now run OWL all the way from the PA tank circuit to the base of the tower. And if the OWL runs with a high SWR, according to the ARRL Handbook, the forward power minus  reflected power method of measurement is reasonably accurate only up to about a 5:1 SWR.  Many OWL tuned feeder systems run at 10:1 or higher at some  frequencies.

To digress for a moment since you brought up the subject of specific power meters, one of the reasons the fee cee decided on the p.e.p. standard (aside from John Johnston's longstanding anti-AM bias) for the output power rule instead of a more appropriate average (aka mean) power standard, is that there were no true average-reading wattmeters available on the consumer market.  A so-called average reading wattmeter such as the Bird 43 is in reality an average-reading rf voltmeter, with scale calibrated to indicate watts into a specifically defined resistive load.  The problem is that average power is NOT equal to average voltage X average current, but rms voltage X rms  current.   BTW, there is no such thing as "rms power" or "rms watts". Likewise, average voltage X average current of a complex waveform is a meaningless calculation.  Instruments like the Bird 43 are capable of reading average power only in the case of a steady unmodulated carrier or a non-amplitude modulated carrier such as an FM or FSK signal.  There were no average reading watt meters readily available at the time; the closest we could come at a  reasonable cost was the thermocouple rf ammeter, calculating average power derived from rms current using Ohm's law, just like the Bird 43 calculates power derived from RF voltage via Ohm's law. The main problem with the rf ammeter is that the movement is too sluggish to indicate the average power of a signal with high peak-to-average ratio like slopbucket.  That has changed; Bird now offers the APM-16, an accurate, true average-reading wattmeter, derived from its active-circuit capability to accurately measure the RMS voltage of a complex waveform.

The best way the FCC could've prevented the confusion would've been to just state a separate AM limit in terms of carrier power. Isn't that how the Canadians do it?

Yup, simple. As I  recall, they have separate limits for full carrier modes and modes without carriers.  But the fee-cee claimed that would have made the rule overly complicated.  I guess Canadians are just plain smarter than United States-ese.

I agree 100%....  Its confusing...  

If it's that confusing for us here in this discussion, imagine how confusing it must be for the Hammy Hambones who occupy frequencies like 3878 and 3892.  

[Opcom]

A can of worms. Claiming a certain PEP level by looking at a carrier on the FCC's average reading meter depends on the waveform as well. I trust the scope better.

If they ever do try to measure the power on an open wire line, I'd like to see a video of that.