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Author Topic: Trane Furnace RFI  (Read 30048 times)
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wa3dsp
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« on: November 28, 2011, 12:50:03 PM »

I recently had a Trane XV95 furnace installed and I am experiencing RFI on 75 meters and probably others bands also but have not checked.

I notice an earlier (2008) thread on this in the AM forum. At the time Ed, VA3ES was inquiring and it appeared that W8WRP had some insight. Unfortunately W8WRP's fixes were not published in the thread. This was an old thread (2008) so I was wondering if anyone has updated information or possible fixes.

This RFI is only when the unit is "fired" not when just the distribution air handler is running.

I contacted Trane and their response was to contact my installer for possible installation of an RFI kit from Trane. I am not sure how much that would cost if anything as Trane should be responsible to make this thing class B acceptable which I doubt it is now.

Any help would be appreciated.

73 Doug
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W1AEX
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2011, 12:56:25 PM »

Being curious I typed "trane furnace rfi" into google and found a number of RFI complaints. The one at the link below indicates that they seem to respond well to these complaints. 

http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/FLro8zhlOPnUq3e4jlJK

The excerpt below from the 80 meter DX'er who complained indicates that Trane responded fairly quickly:

"I contacted Trane customer service via e-mail and was informed the next day they provided a kit described as KIT14688 that could be installed by a furnace tech from the dealer who did the initial installation.  I contacted the dealer, in my case Clayton Heating in Youngstown, Ohio, and within a week they called saying the kit was in hand and they made an appointment for a tech to install it.  The installation took less two hours and was covered by the warranty since this was a new furnace."

Good luck!

Rob W1AEX
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wa3dsp
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2011, 01:32:10 PM »

Rob,

That is good news. I just got a response from Trane on this:

"Thank you for your reply. Your dealer would have to contact their local Parts office for a part number for an RFI kit for your unit, as we do not handle parts at the manufacturing plant. Your dealer would need to contact his local Dealer Support regarding any cost to you for the kit."

So knowing the kit number is a help. Installers are busy and since this has nothing to do with the actual performance of the unit and is something that most installers would be baffled about, I fell uneasy asking them to fix the problem without some compensation from Trane.

I still would be interested in any other fixes or if anyone has any experience with this kit being installed and how well it worked.

Doug, WA3DSP
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Ed-VA3ES
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2011, 05:57:39 PM »

I installed a major RFI suppression system in my XV-95. It's now dead quiet.  Unfortunately, all my neighbors have hi-efficiency furnaces too.   I can tell which neighbor's furnace is on by it's S-meter reading!  The other problem is how do I convince my neighbors to install RFI kits on their furnaces?  Their furnaces are working perfectly, as far as they're concerned!  I just can't go and install RFI kits unsolicited!   (Maybe I could sneak in,  in the middle of the night?) Also, they're not all Trane furnaces, so we're dealing with varying levels of installer cooperation.

Winter at my QTH is a cacaphony of QRM and noise.   Summer is so peaceful!

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wa3dsp
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« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2011, 08:05:22 PM »

What really irks me about this is that the manufacturers of these products apparently get away with violating the class B emission standards. It is one thing if it is your own furnace because apparently with some effort you can fix this but if you had neighbors with emitters like this how could you do anything about it. That's exactly why there is a standard and why it should be enforced.

Does anyone keep a record of offending devices and cures? This just gets worse all the time. Maybe this is our karma for all the TVI we caused back in the 50's !!!
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WD8KDG
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2011, 08:31:57 PM »


Does anyone keep a record of offending devices and cures? This just gets worse all the time. Maybe this is our karma for all the TVI we caused back in the 50's !!!

If there were such a list it would grow exponentially Sad Sooner or later this mess will interfere with other radio services. Last year I had a phone call from Laura Smith. During the conversation with Ms Laura; she stated Part 15 was created by Congress and the FCC duty was to enforce Part 15. Well, I can tell you the Fee Cee doesn't enforce chit.

As stated before, if no one complains to the FCC or Congress, there is no problem and Part 15 is working.

Craig,
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Edward Cain
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2011, 03:35:49 PM »

Hi Guys,
   I, too, have just recently had a Trane XV95 installed and notice the RFI. I just got off the phone with the installer who informed me that it will cost me $501.00 just for the kit.
   Have any of you had better luck than this?

Ed KJ4JST
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2011, 03:58:57 PM »

   I, too, have just recently had a Trane XV95 installed and notice the RFI. I just got off the phone with the installer who informed me that it will cost me $501.00 just for the kit.
   Have any of you had better luck than this?
Ed KJ4JST

Everyone I know about that had this problem with a Trane did not have to purchase the kit nor pay for installation.  Be sure your installer is not trying to rip your back pocket.  Something seems amiss.
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wa3dsp
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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2011, 10:56:57 PM »

OK here is the update on the Trane RFI problem. A Lot has transpired over the last several days.

I contacted the ARRL and several other people including an owner that has corrected and documented this problem.

The issue, which is specific to Trane, but probably many other furnace manufacturers is the control of the inducer motor with a PWM pulse train to control speed and increase efficiency. This is the motor that provides combustion air, not the air distribution (ECM) motor. The stock furnace has no filtering and, as far as I can tell, no FCC type acceptance for an unintentional radiator part 15 class B. Complaints about the Trane furnaces go back to 2006/2007 and a kit to fix the problem was apparently made available in around 2008. Trane has never changed the furnace design to include these fixes. The furnace creates hash noise across the entire HF spectrum and to well above 30 Mhz. Depending on your antennas proximity and the location of house and thermostat wiring the noise level can vary but I have found it to be S9+ on most bands.

The kit consists of a Corcom line filter, replacement shielded wiring from the controller to the motor, and numerous ferrite beads to be installed on wiring both inside and those leaving the furnace.

As of right now the company will NOT pay for the cost of this kit or the cost of the labor to install it. This is NOT an installer issue. I called Trane customer service in Tyler, TX and also contacted them on the web. In both cases I was told that they are aware of the issue, that they have a kit, and that they will NOT pay for the cost of the kit or labor to install it either under warranty or otherwise.

My installer checked this out and got the same story. His cost for the kit is $189 (probably about $30 worth of parts) It apparently takes two hours of labor. The $500 cost that someone reported sounds high but if the installer tacked on a charge for the part and added labor I though that it would be at least $300.

I would advise anyone that has this problem to hold off on paying for a fix at least until we figure out where we are going with this. The company should be responsible and in fact might be totally in violation of FCC part 15 rules. Whether we could get the FCC to enforce this is another story.

If you are really desperate to work that DX you can turn off the heater for a half hour or so and have at it until you get the problem fixed.

The cost of readily available parts to do this should be well under $50 and if you have any circuit experience you should be able to install this yourself. If I cannot get any resolution with the company to pay for this I plan to do mine myself. There are also other things above and beyond the kit that can be done to further lower the noise. they are detailed in the file I mention below. 

If you have a Trane furnace that is causing interference please contact me - doug@crompton.com
Also if you had the problem corrected I would like to know about it.  Did you have to pay for correction and how effective was it? I have seen mention of people not paying for this fix but no direct Trane owner has told me that. I would especially like to hear from you if you were able to get this kit for free. When did you get it and by what means?

I am in contact with  Ed Sieb, VA3ES who has produced complete documentation on correcting the problem on a Trane XV95 furnace. It includes pictures and documentation. It is about 10 Megs in size and I could email it to anyone who would like to see it.

I plan to continue to pursue this. I feel that this is a very important matter that goes far beyond individual problems like mine. Tens of thousands of these mini-transmitters have been shipped and are running in every neighborhood. You might be able to fix your own but what about that non-ham neighbor that you don't get along with? A total recall would be a dream and I would be thrilled if we could make it happen. I highly doubt it will but if we don't try there is no possibility it ever will.

Please send me you comments, especially Trane furnace owners. If you would like to be included in the email distribution for this, let me know and I will add you.

73 Doug

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Edward Cain
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« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2011, 11:43:43 PM »

Hello Doug and all that are interested,

   After I spoke with my installer and told him $501 was out of the question and gave him a lecture about the FCC regs etc, he phoned me back. He told me he had contacted Trane in TX and mentioned my FCC concerns. At that point they agreed to provide the kit to the installer for no charge. They did tell him that they were not legally obligated to adhere to part B. And as I read it, they are correct. In any event, I still need to pay for installation. So, at this point the total cost to me will be $200. I can live with that, though not entirely happy.

Ed
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Edward Cain
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« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2011, 11:49:40 PM »

P.S. My installer told me that if I installed my own version of rfi kit that it would void the warranty. I don't know bout you guys, but I have a 10 year parts and labor warranty that I don't want to put in jeopardy.

Ed
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wa3dsp
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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2011, 12:09:57 AM »

Ed,

 Well you have to make that decision yourself. I can understand the warranty issues you may have. I still have not decided what I am going to do. I would like to force the company to do the right thing.

I can tell you that I don't take the companies word that they do not have to adhere to part 15. Several people I have talked to tag this furnace based on its design and operating frequencies as a part 15B device. This would require emission testing and certification. Even if it were not a part 15 defined unintentional radiator but rather an incidental radiator it still would be out of compliance as per part 15 due to it's interference with other services. The FCC has the authority to enforce this but getting them to do so in today's climate is doubtful. Unfortunately the manufacturers know this and it is cheaper to respond to the complainers than the cost of making the device compliant. The risk is a recall or manufacturing stop by the FCC which is unlikely.

As I stated om my previous message I see this as an issue well beyond the individual user. You better hope your neighbors don't get one of these furnaces. You'll be paying for theirs also!!!

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Edward Cain
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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2011, 01:31:54 AM »

Doug,
   I agree with you that manufacturers should be held to doing the right thing. But, if I read part 15 correctly, unintentional radiators in home appliances are exempted from certification and it is only recommended that the manufacturers comply. It is a requirement that the user comply or shut it down upon receiving a complaint.
   Do I misunderstand part 15?

Ed
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wa3dsp
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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2011, 01:57:00 AM »

Ed,

 What you say is correct but the equipment has to meet the emission requirements under part 15 class B. Unintentional radiators do have to meet the standards. That is the manufacturer has to test and certify that the product does not exceed the the levels as prescribed under part 15 class B rules.

When you buy any unintentional radiator product, computer, TV, etc. they have to comply to class B standards and be label as such. The furnace based on the emissions should be labeled an unintentional radiator and since it is used in residential areas come under class B of part 15.

A very good description of all this can be found here -

http://www.ce-mag.com/99ARG/Gubish31.html
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flintstone mop
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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2011, 06:42:39 AM »

P.S. My installer told me that if I installed my own version of rfi kit that it would void the warranty. I don't know bout you guys, but I have a 10 year parts and labor warranty that I don't want to put in jeopardy.

Ed
I hope Trane will choose to help out. A furnace is a large investment to lose any type of warranty coverage, with all of that hi-tech crap inside.
There was another high efficiency furnace thread here and the OP was worried about RFI..........I guess stay away from the XV95 Trane.
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Fred KC4MOP
Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2011, 08:08:19 AM »

You guys are experiencing the same problem I had with a Heil that I owned before moving to a new house I had built.  Heil is owned by International Comfort Products and when I contacted them, they just laughed.  I mentioned Part 15 and it didn't faze them so I called the FCC about it.

The person I talked to listened carefully and said the unintentional radiator part has been modified so that his type of this does not apply.  He explained as how Part 15 requirements now only apply to noise conducted down the line rather than radiated in these instances.  Sounds a bit like BPL to me.  It appears that the only way to fix this problem at no cost is to shame Trane into it.

You might try filing a complaint with the BBB along with any other methods you can find.  Enough complaints and the BBB will drop approval of them which they really do not want.  In the new house I purchased a high end Armstrong Air heat pump and have no issues with it at all either noise out of it or RF into it.  Armstrong Air is part of Allied Air who also owns Lennox.  Customer service is gone guys and gals.
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2011, 08:52:11 AM »

How far away are the radios to pick up that much noise? Reason is I am getting a s9 noise on 80 meter and I could not here anyone across the street. I am also thinking it might be a transformer in my backyard. Time to build a direction finder.
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2011, 08:56:26 AM »

In my case it was near 100 ft.  I didn't try any futher than that.
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WQ9E
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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2011, 09:24:22 AM »

Ed,

Does the Trane interfere with your AM broadcast radio also?  Any fair sized local AM station that would take your side?  We can't have a furnace preventing the spread of dubious wisdom by AM talk radio windbags Sad

Before you take on internal modifications that are expensive and potentially warranty threatening I would first make sure that the furnace housing and duct work are properly grounded.  The AC ground may not provide a very good RF ground so you may have to address grounding.  Often duct work is installed with a flexible coupling to reduce noise transfer to the rest of the house and if so you will need to jumper around this insulating coupling (or ground the duct work separately) since noise would be transferred to it via capacitive coupling.  After this, use a portable receiver to sniff the AC feed to the furnace, the  thermostat line and the control line to your outside AC compressor to see if any of these are "hot" with interference.  Any of these can be filtered without going inside your furnace and impacting your warranty.  ICE used to make excellent AC line and phone (useful for control line also) surge protector/filters but it appears the new owners have dropped those lines.  But I am sure you can find suitable products elsewhere.  Depending upon your home construction it may be fairly easy to replace control cables to the thermostat and AC compressor with shielded versions if those are the main source of radiated interference.  Other large RF openings are return air intake and conditioned air output.  It should be simple to add a grounded brass screen on air intake in the filter area, the output side could be a bit more difficult but doable.  I would use a large mesh screen for the output side to avoid debris buildup from stuff that makes it through the intake filter.

Hopefully Trane will step up and take care of this but short term profitability is the decision driver and helping you doesn't further that goal.
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wa3dsp
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2011, 10:54:18 AM »

First of all let me say that grounding for interference such as this is mostly ineffective. Mainly because most of the energy is conducted out of the furnace on power, thermostat, and any other lines. If you know antenna theory you will understand why this is. Bonding might help. Shielding is kind of a ridiculous concept. Would you build a screen room to put your furnace in!!

In any event the fix for this is simple at least on the Trane XV95. It is already known. If anyone wants to have that info I can supply it along with detailed pictures, the Trane service bulletin, and parts detail.

Anyone that has an electrical/electronics background could perform the fixes without trouble. We do have a few left like that in amateur radio, don't we? You have to decide if you want to hassle with the company and maybe pay upwards of $300 to have this fixed or do it yourself for less than $50 in parts and a little time. Again I have a 6Mb PDF file on this I can send to anyone that is interested. Ask me here or email me at doug@crompton.com 

That being said the issue of this thread at this point is not how to fix the problem but rather how to force the company to pay to fix a problem they have created for us. It also is a much broader problem as it is NOT just Trane but many other brands of high efficiency furnaces that have been in the field for years and are coming online daily. 

You can argue part 15 all day. To my knowledge nothing has changed in it to make interfering with other services exempt. What has changed is the willingness of the FCC to enforce it with manufacturers. They have gone after power companies for interference problems in selected cases but you rarely see anyone cited for part 15 violations. The last entity I would trust in the matter is anything the company says. They are interested in one thing, protecting their profits. Trane could have done the right thing and installed filtering in every furnace when they discovered the problem. It would have cost them maybe $15/furnace at time of manufacture. The is minuscule in the ~$1500 price of a furnace.   

Lets face it HF AM broadcast and HF are seldom used anymore by other than hams and foreign broadcasters. If the problem were happening to public service or TV it would get a little more attention! I use to work as a civilian for the Navy. I am sure if the military had a problem at an HF receiving station it would get some attention by the FCC. But how many military receiving stations are in densely populated neighborhoods where these furnaces would be?

Would I have still bought a Trane had I know about this problem? I think the answer would have been yes. I like the product and the installer. I think I would have negotiated the fix at time of purchase though when you have much more leverage.

73 Doug   
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WQ9E
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« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2011, 11:14:53 AM »

First of all let me say that grounding for interference such as this is mostly ineffective. Mainly because most of the energy is conducted out of the furnace on power, thermostat, and any other lines. If you know antenna theory you will understand why this is. Bonding might help. Shielding is kind of a ridiculous concept. Would you build a screen room to put your furnace in!!

I agree that much of the interference is likely conducted out on control lines which is WHY that was noted in my post along with filtering thereof. Nor did I advise building a screen room for the furnace (any more than I would advise building a screen room for the transmitter).  I did recommend that screening of the air intake and output MIGHT be needed depending upon the egress/ingress of RF just as shielding meter openings was necessary on transmitters during the TVI era.

I was responding largely to Ed's concern that he did not want to lose his warranty by doing internal modifications to the furnace mechanism.





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wa3dsp
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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2011, 12:07:53 PM »

Please understand I was not trying to discount your suggestions. Every little thing helps some but the problem with the XV95 is rather severe and I doubt you are going to achieve any level of relief without filtering of all the leads out of the furnace. This would include a good line filter, and multiple ferrites on leads in and out.

The Trane kit includes three things - a Line filter, ferrites for the other leads (thermostat etc.) and a new shielded lead from the controller board to the motor.  The line filter is a Delta 16DPCG5C. I just purchase one on ebay for $15.

If a user wanted to try fixing this on their own and they are worried about the warranty they could take it one step at a time. The line filter is a must but it could be installed in a metal box outside of the furnace. The beads are easy. Get clamp on Ferrites - Mouser 623-0431164181 and solid round - 623-2631102002. Clamp them over all leads in and out. Try to get as many turns wrapped around the core as you can.  I think these steps can be taken without any warranty fears.

 
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2011, 02:13:12 PM »

If a user wanted to try fixing this on their own and they are worried about the warranty they could take it one step at a time. The line filter is a must but it could be installed in a metal box outside of the furnace. The beads are easy. Get clamp on Ferrites - Mouser 623-0431164181 and solid round - 623-2631102002. Clamp them over all leads in and out. Try to get as many turns wrapped around the core as you can.  I think these steps can be taken without any warranty fears.

One could possibly do the ferrite beads on the thermostat wire.  Get a split core from RS and wind as many turns as close to the cabinet as you can.  Usually an installer will leave some slack in the wire so you may be able to get enough turns to choke the problem.
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Edward Cain
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« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2011, 03:09:36 PM »

Roger, the rfi does affect am broadcast. On my ac/dc portable the noise is annoying running on batteries and terrible when on ac. My local station is relatively small, 1000W day/night. I will contact them, but I don't expect much action.

As I mentioned above, I'm going to pony up the $200 and be done with it (hopefully). The initial quote of $500 plus installation charges was unacceptable but I can live with their compromise price.

It is still not clear to me that part 15 requires anything from the manufacturers. I'm focussing on 15.103 which recites:

"The following devices are subject only to the general conditions of
operation in Sec. Sec. 15.5 and 15.29 and are exempt from the specific
technical standards and other requirements contained in this part
. The
operator of the exempted device shall be required to stop operating the
device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the
device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until
the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected.
Although not mandatory, it is strongly recommended that the manufacturer
of an exempted device endeavor to have the device meet the specific
technical standards in this part.
"

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wa3dsp
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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2011, 02:34:10 AM »

I suppose we could get a determination of whether the unintentional radiator in a furnace was considered exempt but it really does not matter. In some ways it may be better as no measurement has to be made only the determination of harmful interference. Why a computer would be required to be certified and a micro controller and associated digital circuitry in an appliance would be exempt is beyond me. Perhaps some industry lobbying at the time the rules were made.

The following from part 15 for exempt devices....

All equipment liable to cause radio frequency interference is subject to the requirements of the FCC.

Operation of an exempt device may be stopped by the FCC if the device is found to cause harmful interference. Operation may be resumed only after the condition causing the interference has been corrected.


It is unlikely the FCC would come to your home on a cold winter day and tell you to shut off your furnace because it was causing interference. They may investigate the manufacturer of the product though. The key here is getting the FCC to do anything.
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