The AM Forum
October 24, 2014, 10:40:55 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Calendar Links Staff List Gallery Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Trane Furnace RFI  (Read 5817 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
WA7BBI
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2011, 01:19:13 PM »

I had a Trane XV-95 installed in April, 2009. It wiped out all bands completely. I called the installer and asked if there was a filter available. The next day the company came out and installed the filter, it eliminated approximately 90 percent of the noise and made operation possible again. This was done at no charge to me at all. The installer said the company knew of the problem and provided the fix. I was and remain a happy ham.
Logged
wa3dsp
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 284


WWW
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2011, 04:11:59 PM »

It seems like all the Trane "free" installs have been well in the past. They are taking a more hard line on this now. At least that is my experience so far. I am sure it would be next to impossible to find out but I wonder who foot the bill for the kit and installation in your case. Was the installer reimbursed or did they take the hit?

My installer was told the kit cost $189 and he has no way around that cost. I am not sure what the labor charges are but the kit says 2 hours time and that would probably be at least another $150.

The stories vary widely on this from free installation to costing hundreds of dollars.
Logged
wa3dsp
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 284


WWW
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2011, 03:26:03 PM »

OK a late update....

I contacted the Langhorne PA FCC office and the enforcement officer there was very interested in my furnace case. He was also interested in investigating my Ryobi battery charger the is a ferocious RFI producer.  I will report back on what I find out on this. They may do some measurements. Given their advice I do plan to pursue this issue.

I sent another note to Trane and got yet another response. It seems that if you press them hard enough they will pay for this. I would advise anyone having this problem to NOT pay for any services to fix it. Press your installer to get an exemption on the cost from the distributor. This is a crazy way to do business but apparently the factory in Tyler, TX is not the deciding authority, it is the distributor or at least they want it to appear that way. 

Here is my last request to Trane:

From: Doug [mailto:dsc3507@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 3:31 PM
To: Tyler, Customer-Information
Subject: Re: Contact Us: Other

 I am replying to this one more time because there seems to be some confusion about how this problem has been handled in the past. Through Internet research and contacts within the amateur radio community I have determined that the cases of RFI noise in the past were repaired (parts and labor) at no cost to the customer.  My installer has informed me that the cost of a kit to fix this problem is $189 and would require installation time that he would not be reimbursed for.

My XV95 that was recently installed is interfering with both AM broadcast and FCC licensed amateur radio reception throughout the entire HF spectrum. While I understand that XV95 might be exempt from class B emissions certification it is not exempt from FCC part 15 rules which state:

All equipment liable to cause radio frequency interference is subject to the requirements of the FCC.

Operation of an exempt device may be stopped by the FCC if the device is found to cause harmful interference. Operation may be resumed only after the condition causing the interference has been corrected.

I would like to get you formal refusal to not correct this problem before I file a formal complaint with the FCC. I should not have to pay hundreds of dollars to correct a problem that is created by a manufacturing or engineering defect in your product that is restricting my ability to pursue my amateur radio hobby and radio commercial AM radio listening. I may also seek legal relief on this issue.

Doug Crompton

And their response:

From: "Tyler, Customer-Information" <customer-information.tyler@trane.com>
To: Doug <dsc3507@yahoo.com>

Thank you for your reply. Your dealer simply needs to contact his local Trane rep at the Trane regional office and have the regional rep provide a concession on the RFI kit and if the unit has been installed less than a year, the dealer covers the labor under the dealer labor agreement. Is your refusing to assist you with this?

Thank you,

Consumer Relations
Trane and American Standard Heating and Air Conditioning
Residential Solutions
Ingersoll Rand
6200 Troup Highway
Tyler, TX 75707
Logged
Jim, W5JO
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2255


« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2011, 06:52:08 PM »

OK a late update....
From: "Tyler, Customer-Information" <customer-information.tyler@trane.com>
To: Doug <dsc3507@yahoo.com>

Thank you for your reply. Your dealer simply needs to contact his local Trane rep at the Trane regional office and have the regional rep provide a concession on the RFI kit and if the unit has been installed less than a year, the dealer covers the labor under the dealer labor agreement. Is your refusing to assist you with this?

Thank you,

Consumer Relations
Trane and American Standard Heating and Air Conditioning
Residential Solutions
Ingersoll Rand
6200 Troup Highway
Tyler, TX 75707


Good for you but keep the pressure on them.  The dealer may stall saying he is busy or any number of other possibilities exist.  They generally are fair, just don't let it fall through the cracks.
Logged
WA7BBI
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2011, 09:35:35 PM »

Doug,

I sure hope you get this resolved soon. The entire installation takes about 30 minutes, it is very simple, all the parts come in the kit. The dealer I bought my furnace from must have been a saint. From the time I called to inform them of the noise to the installation was less than 24 hours. I still get about one "S" unit of noise but I work a lot of DX too. Best Wishes and Happy Holidays. Jim
Logged
wa3dsp
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 284


WWW
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2011, 10:22:08 PM »

Jim,

  Thanks for the reply. I don't blame my installer, he's a good guy. He is probably being worked over as much as I am. I wish I did not have to involve him in the negotiations since it is not his fault and he certainly has better things to do. I also don't want him to have to pay for the parts or labor. I will let you know how it pans out. I am still taking the FCC route though and I may want to hold off on the repair in case they want to make measurements.

73 Doug
Logged
KA2DZT
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1267


« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2011, 12:49:00 AM »

You would think that a major corp could produce a product to perform a particular function without crapping all over everyone else in the process.

Fred
Logged
The Slab Bacon
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 3934



« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2011, 08:56:06 AM »

I had a similar situation with another major provider- Comcast!

I had opted for their phone service as part of their "tripple play" deal. After about 6 months I started to have intermittant phone service, and then It crapped out all together. (after many service calls) With a 90 year old mother in a nursing home (and having health issues) and my father in law in the horsepistol just having had a heart attack, My wife and myself were getting frantic. I called them begging for my phone to be fixed. they told me that it would take another 4-5 days to get a technician out to look at it.
I was furious beyond words.

I was promised a service call on Saturday between 12:00 and 4:00 PM, this just screwed up my whole day and I was really pissed. They didn't show up on saturday and That was the last straw. I called them and inquired about an emergency call on Sunday as I needed a phone at that time. I was told very abruptly by the customer service rep that "we dont do service work on Sunday". Now having smoke coming out of both ears and spinning like a "wild eyed tazmanian razdassit" I filed an on-line complaint with the FCC. Well............. "The wind blew, the szht flew, and that was all she wrote!!"

Apparently they must have some kind of direct link between them. Within an hour of filing my complaint, I was called by one of the supervisors at Comcast, and he even had the complaint number allready!! He assured me that a technician would be out at my house first thing SUNDAY MORNING! ! ! I read him the riot act and we negotiated monetary deal for me to keep their service!!

When the pair of techs arrived on sunday morning, I told them to fix it or remove all of their equipment from my property. They actually fixed it this time and we lived happily ever after.

I guess on some things The FCC can actually be your friend!!

Logged

"No is not an answer and failure is not an option!"
WA7BBI
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2011, 09:57:44 PM »

Doug,

What is the latest? Here it is Christmas Eve and no word from you, are you getting any help from Trane? This problem affects a lot of people, especially buyer's of Trane and American  Standard products. We need to stick together to make sure this problem is eliminated. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

73, Jim,  WA7BBI
Logged
wa3dsp
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 284


WWW
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2012, 03:36:46 PM »

Jim and all,

  Here is an update. Not too much to report. First of all I had little or no help from the ARRL  which I guess is expected. I did contact my local FCC office in Langhorne, PA  and so far they have been the best connection. They took down all the information and assigned an engineer. I sent over the PDF package I had put together.

They want to do field measurements on the furnace and will come to Cape May, NJ to do that. It is just getting a time when I will be there and they can come. It may take a few months. Meanwhile I had mentioned to them I had a Ryobi battery charger that was a horrendous noise maker. They called last week and asked if I could bring it in. Apparently they needed work! At least measurement work. So I took it over. They were going to do field measurements on it and take it apart and photograph it.  The manufacturer had jumpered where a noise filter would have gone. These tool battery chargers are a big source of noise. You can google it and see tons of complaints. The tradesman that use them have to unplug them to listen to commercial radio anywhere in the area. If I leave it plugged in here it wipes out most of the lower HF bands. So I need to call them this week and see where they stand with that as I need my charger back.

I did gather the materials to make the mod to the furnace and I probably will do that myself once the FCC gets done. I will have to see where the FCC goes with this. They do send letters to manufacturers. I can tell you one thing, I am not paying the manufacturer to have it fixed. Either they will do it at cost or I will do it myself. The cost of materials to do the Trane prescribed fix is less than $40.

Thanks for asking for an update. I have not had much response on this and I kind of thought I was out here on an island. Most people don't want to make waves I guess. If anyone reads this and has anything to contribute please do. I would like to hear others experiences on this.

Doug  WA3DSP
Logged
KB2WIG
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3559



« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2012, 06:21:18 PM »

" Most people don't want to make waves I guess. "

Sometimes you have to .....   Poke a thumb into their eye.

My Rheem 'Classic 90 Plus' is quiet; I can just barely hear some noise when it fires up. 


klc
Logged

What? Me worry?
flintstone mop
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4476


« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2012, 07:06:18 AM »

Googling XV95 RFI turns up a lot of hits. And even a thread from AMFONE about 3 yrs ago.
Something about the ECM and the variable speed blower motor.
Didn't seem like nothing Harry Homeowner could do to fix it.

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=17759.0

Logged
WA7BBI
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2012, 06:07:32 PM »

Doug,  I would be furious over this. Trane has a small cable with everything built in to fix this. Then they install a line filter and that is it. If it was me, my attorney would be spending the money already. They know of the problem and have a fix for it. Not 100 per cent, but usable. There is no excuse for this. Contact your congress person and have them call the FCC for you. You will be amazed how fast they show up. Also, get the press involved. Radio, TV and especially newspaper human interest story about big business against the little guy. Make NOISE and a lot of it. It will blow you away how fast the response will be. Good Luck.
Jim, WA7BBI
Logged
wa3dsp
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 284


WWW
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2012, 12:28:21 AM »

Jim,

I agree and I was furious but it is not quite that easy. If it were then we would not have the problem. The companies know they can get away with this and they do. If you read through this thread you will see the history. My point was always that fixing mine is one thing but what about the tens of thousands of others out there that will never get fixed. Maybe mine or your next door neighbor!

I already kind of have the FCC involved. They agreed to look at it but they also don't really have much ability to do anything. If it were interfering with military or public service communications it might be a different story. The very first thing the field engineer does is refer the matter to the FCC attorneys in Washington for a ruling on whether to proceed. I guess they check if the company has paid them off of not.

Trane makes it very difficult because you have to deal bottom up. Their headquarters, wherever that is (Tyler, TX) has no one you can talk to. They always want you to go through your installer, who will talk to the distributor. It seems some get better deals than others.  I have had some say they were installed for free, others are quoted $400 or more to install the one hour fix.

I have the exact line filter they install as well as the ferrite's The only thing I don't have is the cable. I just need to get the connectors and I can make one up. So it is a lot easier to do this myself after the FCC does their thing. They can fight with the company if they chose to. Hopefully they will and it will help others.

So you see how this fight in Washington right now to do away and downsize agencies left and right is only going to hurt the little guy. Personally I would rather pay a few more dollars in taxes and have the protections. Can you imagine what life would be like if the FCC went away altogether. No radiation standards. You would have 20 over 9 hash 24/7 on HF and no one to complain to or enforce anything. Sure big business is going to police itself,  NOT!

I don't want to discourage others from pursuing this further and I would be glad to supply any information or help in any way I can.

Doug
Logged
KB2WIG
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3559



« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2012, 12:40:04 PM »

Trane is a subsidary of Ingersoll Rand


"  Ingersoll Rand is a $14 billion global diversified industrial company, driven by employees who are proud to offer products and solutions people use every day to create a positive impact in their world. Driven by a 100-year-old tradition of technological innovation, we enable companies and their customers to create progress.  "
 


Ingersoll-Rand plc
170/175 Lakeview Drive, Airside Business Park, Swords, Co. Dublin, Ireland


klc
Logged

What? Me worry?
WA7BBI
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2012, 03:27:39 PM »

Doug,  I truly admire your calmness under pressure. I know my fuse is short but it has worked for me in the past. What boggles the mind is that the fix is readily available and so simple. This is like watching someone die because the penicillan pills are 12 inches out of reach and no one will pick them up. I hope all the members will forgive my temper, but this just isn't right. I wish you well.
73,  Jim, WA7BBI
Logged
wa3dsp
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 284


WWW
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2012, 10:26:02 PM »

Jim,

 You don't have to apologize. I wish more were like you. I tend to be that way myself but I know when I am beat or at least when I need to back off.

I went to the FCC today to pick up my Ryobi battery charger that they did field tests on. They found excessive radiation up to 40 Mhz.  So now what happens? I am not sure. They send the data to the next higher level. At least I have a contact there and I won't hesitate in the future to complain about a device that is emitting. The real problem is exactly what authority the FCC has. They aren't even able to tell me that!!! This charger has no FCC ID but radiates like hell and yet it may not be a device they have control over. Go figure. The same may be true for the furnaces.

They will be in Cape May next Thursday but unfortunately I won't be there then so will have to make another date.

Doug
Logged
DMOD
AC0OB - A Place where Thermionic Emitters Rule!
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 586


« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2012, 12:03:22 AM »

Quote
Meanwhile I had mentioned to them I had a Ryobi battery charger that was a horrendous noise maker.

Interesting Doug, as my Milwaukee Tools battery charger does the same thing.

I have to charge the Lithium batteries when the radio is off.

I wonder if these chargers are all made by the same (foreign) company?

Keep up the pressure Doug.

Phil
Logged

"It only knows that it needs, it does not know WHAT it needs." Spock from Star Trek   Smiley
kb3rdt
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 217


« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2012, 02:23:04 AM »

I get  RFI from the washer it's an LG wave force...
Logged
WD5JKO
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1338


WD5JKO


« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2012, 07:20:28 AM »


It seems that hams might just have to tackle these issues ourselves as the bureaucratic route might be harder to overcome than the actual technical issue at hand. I found this web site that presents the EMI problem with an explanation of what is going on, and various ways to fix the issue.

http://www.powerqualityanddrives.com/emi_rfi/


This site makes AC/DC motor drives, and also sells a line of EMI/RFI filters:
http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_AC_Drives_Inverters/AC_Drives_Accessories.htm

Jim
WD5JKO
Logged
WD8KDG
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 146



« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2012, 09:56:43 AM »

Bottom Line: Congress is to blame, Part 15 is their creation Angry If the RFI is in your home the issue most likely can be fixed with a filter or turn it off while on the air.

Another story when the RFI is in a neighbors home and they are Mr/Mrs NO. The FCC will do nothing.

Craig,
Logged

Ham radio is now like the surprize in a box of "Cracker-Jacks". There is a new source of RFI every day.
WD5JKO
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1338


WD5JKO


« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2012, 08:23:28 PM »

Bottom Line: Congress is to blame, Part 15 is their creation Angry If the RFI is in your home the issue most likely can be fixed with a filter or turn it off while on the air.

Another story when the RFI is in a neighbors home and they are Mr/Mrs NO. The FCC will do nothing.

Craig,

Craig, you might be correct, but remember some hams hide behind part 15 when there is an interference issue between our station and a neighbors cheap phone, speakers, etc. This is a double edged sword. The FCC usually does nothing in this case as well.

I'm just trying to say that these problems like the Trane Furnace RFI issue here are solvable. As hams, and we have a bunch of very smart ones here, we can conquer issues like this without getting all stressed over govt regulations, and unconcerned companies that sell us crap and refuse to fix it. Sure we might have to recreate the wheel, but in the end we can get back to AM radio.

As far as the neighbors go, there isn't much we can do as you say. But we can play with antennas, receiver bandwidth, DSP processing, etc., and even move away from an urban area to a rural area.

So Doug, I wonder if you have any schematics or other info on the technical side of things that we all can look at? Do you know what parts Trane uses in the RFI kit?

Regards,
Jim
WD5JKO
Logged
WD8KDG
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 146



« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2012, 09:30:54 PM »

Bottom Line: Congress is to blame, Part 15 is their creation Angry If the RFI is in your home the issue most likely can be fixed with a filter or turn it off while on the air.

Another story when the RFI is in a neighbors home and they are Mr/Mrs NO. The FCC will do nothing.

Craig,

Craig, you might be correct, but remember some hams hide behind part 15 when there is an interference issue between our station and a neighbors cheap phone, speakers, etc. This is a double edged sword. The FCC usually does nothing in this case as well.

I'm just trying to say that these problems like the Trane Furnace RFI issue here are solvable. As hams, and we have a bunch of very smart ones here, we can conquer issues like this without getting all stressed over govt regulations, and unconcerned companies that sell us crap and refuse to fix it. Sure we might have to recreate the wheel, but in the end we can get back to AM radio.

As far as the neighbors go, there isn't much we can do as you say. But we can play with antennas, receiver bandwidth, DSP processing, etc., and even move away from an urban area to a rural area.

So Doug, I wonder if you have any schematics or other info on the technical side of things that we all can look at? Do you know what parts Trane uses in the RFI kit?

Regards,
Jim
WD5JKO


Not hiding behind anything. "It is the law". Anyway we look at Part 15, it puts the monkey on the consumer's back. The whore masters in China control the pimps (Washington DC lobbyist) who bribe Congress in order to pass laws which are garbage.

A couple pennys more spent on each whizbang electronic item and the problem would not occur. Why should I have to move to a rural area to please whore masters in China???

Craig,
Logged

Ham radio is now like the surprize in a box of "Cracker-Jacks". There is a new source of RFI every day.
wa3dsp
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 284


WWW
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2012, 10:48:36 PM »

I sent the attached PDF package to those who were interested but I guess it would be easier to just put it out here. This describes the Trane EMI problem and a fix. Both the company kit and added pieces by owners.

There are a number of points here that I have made before but will state again.

1. If you are a ham owner of a Trane furnace emiting EMI you have two choices. Argue with the company and more than likely pay to have it fixed or do it yourself. If you are comfortable with working with electrical (line voltage) devices it is rather easy. You have to decide if you think the warranty would be in jeopardy. If you have a good relationship with your installer than I would not think so. If not then all bets are off.

2. If you are a ham and have a problem caused by a non-ham neighbor then this is a completely different story. It is unlikely that your neighbor is going to pay to have something fixed that is not bothering them. You , of course could pay if they would agree to it. Doing the homebrew repair on your neighbors furnace is probably out of the question.

So the idea of just fix it may or may not work depending on how much control you have over the situation. No amount of DSP or filtering at the receiving end will fix this. So you can eliminate that as a fix. Moving away from an urban area while a great way to fix it is just not a choice for most.  This is why we have laws and restrictions on radiation. It is fairly well policed for computer equipment but there are too many items coming on the market that use computer technology (switching PS's, Microprocessor controlled, PWM power drives, etc.) that are exempt from the rules. There is absolutely no reason why they should fall under a different category than computers. The FCC has to catch up with the technology. This should be a job (lobbying) that the ARRL should carry out but we all can write our legislators about this. 

There is another factor here. AM radio is hanging on by a thread. HF radio is the hams, a bunch of religious broadcasters, and third world nations using used gear. No one really cares about interference there. If this were interfering with someones cell phone, wireless network, TV or FM radio then there would be an uproar. Face it amateur radio really does not have much of a voice.

NOTE TO MODERATOR - Unfortunately the PDF package is not attached because this forum has a small limit of 5MB. The package is 6.5MB. Also when you enter an attachment and it errors you cannot remove the file or quit the message, so I had to save (copy) the text, close the window, and then come back in an recreate the message.  5MB seems very restrictive by today's standards.

I put the package up on my web page - http://www.crompton.com/hamradio/
Scroll down to the radio links.

Doug 
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

AMfone - Dedicated to Amplitude Modulation on the Amateur Radio Bands
 AMfone 2001-2014
Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.174 seconds with 18 queries.