Title: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on November 28, 2011, 12:50:03 PM I recently had a Trane XV95 furnace installed and I am experiencing RFI on 75 meters and probably others bands also but have not checked.
I notice an earlier (2008) thread on this in the AM forum. At the time Ed, VA3ES was inquiring and it appeared that W8WRP had some insight. Unfortunately W8WRP's fixes were not published in the thread. This was an old thread (2008) so I was wondering if anyone has updated information or possible fixes. This RFI is only when the unit is "fired" not when just the distribution air handler is running. I contacted Trane and their response was to contact my installer for possible installation of an RFI kit from Trane. I am not sure how much that would cost if anything as Trane should be responsible to make this thing class B acceptable which I doubt it is now. Any help would be appreciated. 73 Doug Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: W1AEX on November 28, 2011, 12:56:25 PM Being curious I typed "trane furnace rfi" into google and found a number of RFI complaints. The one at the link below indicates that they seem to respond well to these complaints.
http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/FLro8zhlOPnUq3e4jlJK The excerpt below from the 80 meter DX'er who complained indicates that Trane responded fairly quickly: "I contacted Trane customer service via e-mail and was informed the next day they provided a kit described as KIT14688 that could be installed by a furnace tech from the dealer who did the initial installation. I contacted the dealer, in my case Clayton Heating in Youngstown, Ohio, and within a week they called saying the kit was in hand and they made an appointment for a tech to install it. The installation took less two hours and was covered by the warranty since this was a new furnace." Good luck! Rob W1AEX Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on November 28, 2011, 01:32:10 PM Rob,
That is good news. I just got a response from Trane on this: "Thank you for your reply. Your dealer would have to contact their local Parts office for a part number for an RFI kit for your unit, as we do not handle parts at the manufacturing plant. Your dealer would need to contact his local Dealer Support regarding any cost to you for the kit." So knowing the kit number is a help. Installers are busy and since this has nothing to do with the actual performance of the unit and is something that most installers would be baffled about, I fell uneasy asking them to fix the problem without some compensation from Trane. I still would be interested in any other fixes or if anyone has any experience with this kit being installed and how well it worked. Doug, WA3DSP Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: Ed-VA3ES on November 28, 2011, 05:57:39 PM I installed a major RFI suppression system in my XV-95. It's now dead quiet. Unfortunately, all my neighbors have hi-efficiency furnaces too. I can tell which neighbor's furnace is on by it's S-meter reading! The other problem is how do I convince my neighbors to install RFI kits on their furnaces? Their furnaces are working perfectly, as far as they're concerned! I just can't go and install RFI kits unsolicited! (Maybe I could sneak in, in the middle of the night?) Also, they're not all Trane furnaces, so we're dealing with varying levels of installer cooperation.
Winter at my QTH is a cacaphony of QRM and noise. Summer is so peaceful! Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on November 28, 2011, 08:05:22 PM What really irks me about this is that the manufacturers of these products apparently get away with violating the class B emission standards. It is one thing if it is your own furnace because apparently with some effort you can fix this but if you had neighbors with emitters like this how could you do anything about it. That's exactly why there is a standard and why it should be enforced.
Does anyone keep a record of offending devices and cures? This just gets worse all the time. Maybe this is our karma for all the TVI we caused back in the 50's !!! Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: WD8KDG on November 28, 2011, 08:31:57 PM Does anyone keep a record of offending devices and cures? This just gets worse all the time. Maybe this is our karma for all the TVI we caused back in the 50's !!! If there were such a list it would grow exponentially :( Sooner or later this mess will interfere with other radio services. Last year I had a phone call from Laura Smith. During the conversation with Ms Laura; she stated Part 15 was created by Congress and the FCC duty was to enforce Part 15. Well, I can tell you the Fee Cee doesn't enforce chit. As stated before, if no one complains to the FCC or Congress, there is no problem and Part 15 is working. Craig, Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: Edward Cain on December 02, 2011, 03:35:49 PM Hi Guys,
I, too, have just recently had a Trane XV95 installed and notice the RFI. I just got off the phone with the installer who informed me that it will cost me $501.00 just for the kit. Have any of you had better luck than this? Ed KJ4JST Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: Jim, W5JO on December 02, 2011, 03:58:57 PM I, too, have just recently had a Trane XV95 installed and notice the RFI. I just got off the phone with the installer who informed me that it will cost me $501.00 just for the kit. Have any of you had better luck than this? Ed KJ4JST Everyone I know about that had this problem with a Trane did not have to purchase the kit nor pay for installation. Be sure your installer is not trying to rip your back pocket. Something seems amiss. Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on December 02, 2011, 10:56:57 PM OK here is the update on the Trane RFI problem. A Lot has transpired over the last several days.
I contacted the ARRL and several other people including an owner that has corrected and documented this problem. The issue, which is specific to Trane, but probably many other furnace manufacturers is the control of the inducer motor with a PWM pulse train to control speed and increase efficiency. This is the motor that provides combustion air, not the air distribution (ECM) motor. The stock furnace has no filtering and, as far as I can tell, no FCC type acceptance for an unintentional radiator part 15 class B. Complaints about the Trane furnaces go back to 2006/2007 and a kit to fix the problem was apparently made available in around 2008. Trane has never changed the furnace design to include these fixes. The furnace creates hash noise across the entire HF spectrum and to well above 30 Mhz. Depending on your antennas proximity and the location of house and thermostat wiring the noise level can vary but I have found it to be S9+ on most bands. The kit consists of a Corcom line filter, replacement shielded wiring from the controller to the motor, and numerous ferrite beads to be installed on wiring both inside and those leaving the furnace. As of right now the company will NOT pay for the cost of this kit or the cost of the labor to install it. This is NOT an installer issue. I called Trane customer service in Tyler, TX and also contacted them on the web. In both cases I was told that they are aware of the issue, that they have a kit, and that they will NOT pay for the cost of the kit or labor to install it either under warranty or otherwise. My installer checked this out and got the same story. His cost for the kit is $189 (probably about $30 worth of parts) It apparently takes two hours of labor. The $500 cost that someone reported sounds high but if the installer tacked on a charge for the part and added labor I though that it would be at least $300. I would advise anyone that has this problem to hold off on paying for a fix at least until we figure out where we are going with this. The company should be responsible and in fact might be totally in violation of FCC part 15 rules. Whether we could get the FCC to enforce this is another story. If you are really desperate to work that DX you can turn off the heater for a half hour or so and have at it until you get the problem fixed. The cost of readily available parts to do this should be well under $50 and if you have any circuit experience you should be able to install this yourself. If I cannot get any resolution with the company to pay for this I plan to do mine myself. There are also other things above and beyond the kit that can be done to further lower the noise. they are detailed in the file I mention below. If you have a Trane furnace that is causing interference please contact me - doug@crompton.com Also if you had the problem corrected I would like to know about it. Did you have to pay for correction and how effective was it? I have seen mention of people not paying for this fix but no direct Trane owner has told me that. I would especially like to hear from you if you were able to get this kit for free. When did you get it and by what means? I am in contact with Ed Sieb, VA3ES who has produced complete documentation on correcting the problem on a Trane XV95 furnace. It includes pictures and documentation. It is about 10 Megs in size and I could email it to anyone who would like to see it. I plan to continue to pursue this. I feel that this is a very important matter that goes far beyond individual problems like mine. Tens of thousands of these mini-transmitters have been shipped and are running in every neighborhood. You might be able to fix your own but what about that non-ham neighbor that you don't get along with? A total recall would be a dream and I would be thrilled if we could make it happen. I highly doubt it will but if we don't try there is no possibility it ever will. Please send me you comments, especially Trane furnace owners. If you would like to be included in the email distribution for this, let me know and I will add you. 73 Doug Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: Edward Cain on December 02, 2011, 11:43:43 PM Hello Doug and all that are interested,
After I spoke with my installer and told him $501 was out of the question and gave him a lecture about the FCC regs etc, he phoned me back. He told me he had contacted Trane in TX and mentioned my FCC concerns. At that point they agreed to provide the kit to the installer for no charge. They did tell him that they were not legally obligated to adhere to part B. And as I read it, they are correct. In any event, I still need to pay for installation. So, at this point the total cost to me will be $200. I can live with that, though not entirely happy. Ed Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: Edward Cain on December 02, 2011, 11:49:40 PM P.S. My installer told me that if I installed my own version of rfi kit that it would void the warranty. I don't know bout you guys, but I have a 10 year parts and labor warranty that I don't want to put in jeopardy.
Ed Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on December 03, 2011, 12:09:57 AM Ed,
Well you have to make that decision yourself. I can understand the warranty issues you may have. I still have not decided what I am going to do. I would like to force the company to do the right thing. I can tell you that I don't take the companies word that they do not have to adhere to part 15. Several people I have talked to tag this furnace based on its design and operating frequencies as a part 15B device. This would require emission testing and certification. Even if it were not a part 15 defined unintentional radiator but rather an incidental radiator it still would be out of compliance as per part 15 due to it's interference with other services. The FCC has the authority to enforce this but getting them to do so in today's climate is doubtful. Unfortunately the manufacturers know this and it is cheaper to respond to the complainers than the cost of making the device compliant. The risk is a recall or manufacturing stop by the FCC which is unlikely. As I stated om my previous message I see this as an issue well beyond the individual user. You better hope your neighbors don't get one of these furnaces. You'll be paying for theirs also!!! Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: Edward Cain on December 03, 2011, 01:31:54 AM Doug,
I agree with you that manufacturers should be held to doing the right thing. But, if I read part 15 correctly, unintentional radiators in home appliances are exempted from certification and it is only recommended that the manufacturers comply. It is a requirement that the user comply or shut it down upon receiving a complaint. Do I misunderstand part 15? Ed Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on December 03, 2011, 01:57:00 AM Ed,
What you say is correct but the equipment has to meet the emission requirements under part 15 class B. Unintentional radiators do have to meet the standards. That is the manufacturer has to test and certify that the product does not exceed the the levels as prescribed under part 15 class B rules. When you buy any unintentional radiator product, computer, TV, etc. they have to comply to class B standards and be label as such. The furnace based on the emissions should be labeled an unintentional radiator and since it is used in residential areas come under class B of part 15. A very good description of all this can be found here - http://www.ce-mag.com/99ARG/Gubish31.html Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: flintstone mop on December 03, 2011, 06:42:39 AM P.S. My installer told me that if I installed my own version of rfi kit that it would void the warranty. I don't know bout you guys, but I have a 10 year parts and labor warranty that I don't want to put in jeopardy. I hope Trane will choose to help out. A furnace is a large investment to lose any type of warranty coverage, with all of that hi-tech crap inside.Ed There was another high efficiency furnace thread here and the OP was worried about RFI..........I guess stay away from the XV95 Trane. Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: Jim, W5JO on December 03, 2011, 08:08:19 AM You guys are experiencing the same problem I had with a Heil that I owned before moving to a new house I had built. Heil is owned by International Comfort Products and when I contacted them, they just laughed. I mentioned Part 15 and it didn't faze them so I called the FCC about it.
The person I talked to listened carefully and said the unintentional radiator part has been modified so that his type of this does not apply. He explained as how Part 15 requirements now only apply to noise conducted down the line rather than radiated in these instances. Sounds a bit like BPL to me. It appears that the only way to fix this problem at no cost is to shame Trane into it. You might try filing a complaint with the BBB along with any other methods you can find. Enough complaints and the BBB will drop approval of them which they really do not want. In the new house I purchased a high end Armstrong Air heat pump and have no issues with it at all either noise out of it or RF into it. Armstrong Air is part of Allied Air who also owns Lennox. Customer service is gone guys and gals. Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: KE7KPB on December 03, 2011, 08:52:11 AM How far away are the radios to pick up that much noise? Reason is I am getting a s9 noise on 80 meter and I could not here anyone across the street. I am also thinking it might be a transformer in my backyard. Time to build a direction finder.
Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: Jim, W5JO on December 03, 2011, 08:56:26 AM In my case it was near 100 ft. I didn't try any futher than that.
Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: WQ9E on December 03, 2011, 09:24:22 AM Ed,
Does the Trane interfere with your AM broadcast radio also? Any fair sized local AM station that would take your side? We can't have a furnace preventing the spread of dubious wisdom by AM talk radio windbags :( Before you take on internal modifications that are expensive and potentially warranty threatening I would first make sure that the furnace housing and duct work are properly grounded. The AC ground may not provide a very good RF ground so you may have to address grounding. Often duct work is installed with a flexible coupling to reduce noise transfer to the rest of the house and if so you will need to jumper around this insulating coupling (or ground the duct work separately) since noise would be transferred to it via capacitive coupling. After this, use a portable receiver to sniff the AC feed to the furnace, the thermostat line and the control line to your outside AC compressor to see if any of these are "hot" with interference. Any of these can be filtered without going inside your furnace and impacting your warranty. ICE used to make excellent AC line and phone (useful for control line also) surge protector/filters but it appears the new owners have dropped those lines. But I am sure you can find suitable products elsewhere. Depending upon your home construction it may be fairly easy to replace control cables to the thermostat and AC compressor with shielded versions if those are the main source of radiated interference. Other large RF openings are return air intake and conditioned air output. It should be simple to add a grounded brass screen on air intake in the filter area, the output side could be a bit more difficult but doable. I would use a large mesh screen for the output side to avoid debris buildup from stuff that makes it through the intake filter. Hopefully Trane will step up and take care of this but short term profitability is the decision driver and helping you doesn't further that goal. Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on December 03, 2011, 10:54:18 AM First of all let me say that grounding for interference such as this is mostly ineffective. Mainly because most of the energy is conducted out of the furnace on power, thermostat, and any other lines. If you know antenna theory you will understand why this is. Bonding might help. Shielding is kind of a ridiculous concept. Would you build a screen room to put your furnace in!!
In any event the fix for this is simple at least on the Trane XV95. It is already known. If anyone wants to have that info I can supply it along with detailed pictures, the Trane service bulletin, and parts detail. Anyone that has an electrical/electronics background could perform the fixes without trouble. We do have a few left like that in amateur radio, don't we? You have to decide if you want to hassle with the company and maybe pay upwards of $300 to have this fixed or do it yourself for less than $50 in parts and a little time. Again I have a 6Mb PDF file on this I can send to anyone that is interested. Ask me here or email me at doug@crompton.com That being said the issue of this thread at this point is not how to fix the problem but rather how to force the company to pay to fix a problem they have created for us. It also is a much broader problem as it is NOT just Trane but many other brands of high efficiency furnaces that have been in the field for years and are coming online daily. You can argue part 15 all day. To my knowledge nothing has changed in it to make interfering with other services exempt. What has changed is the willingness of the FCC to enforce it with manufacturers. They have gone after power companies for interference problems in selected cases but you rarely see anyone cited for part 15 violations. The last entity I would trust in the matter is anything the company says. They are interested in one thing, protecting their profits. Trane could have done the right thing and installed filtering in every furnace when they discovered the problem. It would have cost them maybe $15/furnace at time of manufacture. The is minuscule in the ~$1500 price of a furnace. Lets face it HF AM broadcast and HF are seldom used anymore by other than hams and foreign broadcasters. If the problem were happening to public service or TV it would get a little more attention! I use to work as a civilian for the Navy. I am sure if the military had a problem at an HF receiving station it would get some attention by the FCC. But how many military receiving stations are in densely populated neighborhoods where these furnaces would be? Would I have still bought a Trane had I know about this problem? I think the answer would have been yes. I like the product and the installer. I think I would have negotiated the fix at time of purchase though when you have much more leverage. 73 Doug Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: WQ9E on December 03, 2011, 11:14:53 AM First of all let me say that grounding for interference such as this is mostly ineffective. Mainly because most of the energy is conducted out of the furnace on power, thermostat, and any other lines. If you know antenna theory you will understand why this is. Bonding might help. Shielding is kind of a ridiculous concept. Would you build a screen room to put your furnace in!! I agree that much of the interference is likely conducted out on control lines which is WHY that was noted in my post along with filtering thereof. Nor did I advise building a screen room for the furnace (any more than I would advise building a screen room for the transmitter). I did recommend that screening of the air intake and output MIGHT be needed depending upon the egress/ingress of RF just as shielding meter openings was necessary on transmitters during the TVI era. I was responding largely to Ed's concern that he did not want to lose his warranty by doing internal modifications to the furnace mechanism. Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on December 03, 2011, 12:07:53 PM Please understand I was not trying to discount your suggestions. Every little thing helps some but the problem with the XV95 is rather severe and I doubt you are going to achieve any level of relief without filtering of all the leads out of the furnace. This would include a good line filter, and multiple ferrites on leads in and out.
The Trane kit includes three things - a Line filter, ferrites for the other leads (thermostat etc.) and a new shielded lead from the controller board to the motor. The line filter is a Delta 16DPCG5C. I just purchase one on ebay for $15. If a user wanted to try fixing this on their own and they are worried about the warranty they could take it one step at a time. The line filter is a must but it could be installed in a metal box outside of the furnace. The beads are easy. Get clamp on Ferrites - Mouser 623-0431164181 and solid round - 623-2631102002. Clamp them over all leads in and out. Try to get as many turns wrapped around the core as you can. I think these steps can be taken without any warranty fears. Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: Jim, W5JO on December 03, 2011, 02:13:12 PM If a user wanted to try fixing this on their own and they are worried about the warranty they could take it one step at a time. The line filter is a must but it could be installed in a metal box outside of the furnace. The beads are easy. Get clamp on Ferrites - Mouser 623-0431164181 and solid round - 623-2631102002. Clamp them over all leads in and out. Try to get as many turns wrapped around the core as you can. I think these steps can be taken without any warranty fears. One could possibly do the ferrite beads on the thermostat wire. Get a split core from RS and wind as many turns as close to the cabinet as you can. Usually an installer will leave some slack in the wire so you may be able to get enough turns to choke the problem. Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: Edward Cain on December 03, 2011, 03:09:36 PM Roger, the rfi does affect am broadcast. On my ac/dc portable the noise is annoying running on batteries and terrible when on ac. My local station is relatively small, 1000W day/night. I will contact them, but I don't expect much action.
As I mentioned above, I'm going to pony up the $200 and be done with it (hopefully). The initial quote of $500 plus installation charges was unacceptable but I can live with their compromise price. It is still not clear to me that part 15 requires anything from the manufacturers. I'm focussing on 15.103 which recites: "The following devices are subject only to the general conditions of operation in Sec. Sec. 15.5 and 15.29 and are exempt from the specific technical standards and other requirements contained in this part. The operator of the exempted device shall be required to stop operating the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected. Although not mandatory, it is strongly recommended that the manufacturer of an exempted device endeavor to have the device meet the specific technical standards in this part." Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on December 04, 2011, 02:34:10 AM I suppose we could get a determination of whether the unintentional radiator in a furnace was considered exempt but it really does not matter. In some ways it may be better as no measurement has to be made only the determination of harmful interference. Why a computer would be required to be certified and a micro controller and associated digital circuitry in an appliance would be exempt is beyond me. Perhaps some industry lobbying at the time the rules were made.
The following from part 15 for exempt devices.... All equipment liable to cause radio frequency interference is subject to the requirements of the FCC. Operation of an exempt device may be stopped by the FCC if the device is found to cause harmful interference. Operation may be resumed only after the condition causing the interference has been corrected. It is unlikely the FCC would come to your home on a cold winter day and tell you to shut off your furnace because it was causing interference. They may investigate the manufacturer of the product though. The key here is getting the FCC to do anything. Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: WA7BBI on December 05, 2011, 01:19:13 PM I had a Trane XV-95 installed in April, 2009. It wiped out all bands completely. I called the installer and asked if there was a filter available. The next day the company came out and installed the filter, it eliminated approximately 90 percent of the noise and made operation possible again. This was done at no charge to me at all. The installer said the company knew of the problem and provided the fix. I was and remain a happy ham.
Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on December 05, 2011, 04:11:59 PM It seems like all the Trane "free" installs have been well in the past. They are taking a more hard line on this now. At least that is my experience so far. I am sure it would be next to impossible to find out but I wonder who foot the bill for the kit and installation in your case. Was the installer reimbursed or did they take the hit?
My installer was told the kit cost $189 and he has no way around that cost. I am not sure what the labor charges are but the kit says 2 hours time and that would probably be at least another $150. The stories vary widely on this from free installation to costing hundreds of dollars. Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on December 06, 2011, 03:26:03 PM OK a late update....
I contacted the Langhorne PA FCC office and the enforcement officer there was very interested in my furnace case. He was also interested in investigating my Ryobi battery charger the is a ferocious RFI producer. I will report back on what I find out on this. They may do some measurements. Given their advice I do plan to pursue this issue. I sent another note to Trane and got yet another response. It seems that if you press them hard enough they will pay for this. I would advise anyone having this problem to NOT pay for any services to fix it. Press your installer to get an exemption on the cost from the distributor. This is a crazy way to do business but apparently the factory in Tyler, TX is not the deciding authority, it is the distributor or at least they want it to appear that way. Here is my last request to Trane: From: Doug [mailto:dsc3507@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 3:31 PM To: Tyler, Customer-Information Subject: Re: Contact Us: Other I am replying to this one more time because there seems to be some confusion about how this problem has been handled in the past. Through Internet research and contacts within the amateur radio community I have determined that the cases of RFI noise in the past were repaired (parts and labor) at no cost to the customer. My installer has informed me that the cost of a kit to fix this problem is $189 and would require installation time that he would not be reimbursed for. My XV95 that was recently installed is interfering with both AM broadcast and FCC licensed amateur radio reception throughout the entire HF spectrum. While I understand that XV95 might be exempt from class B emissions certification it is not exempt from FCC part 15 rules which state: All equipment liable to cause radio frequency interference is subject to the requirements of the FCC. Operation of an exempt device may be stopped by the FCC if the device is found to cause harmful interference. Operation may be resumed only after the condition causing the interference has been corrected. I would like to get you formal refusal to not correct this problem before I file a formal complaint with the FCC. I should not have to pay hundreds of dollars to correct a problem that is created by a manufacturing or engineering defect in your product that is restricting my ability to pursue my amateur radio hobby and radio commercial AM radio listening. I may also seek legal relief on this issue. Doug Crompton And their response: From: "Tyler, Customer-Information" <customer-information.tyler@trane.com> To: Doug <dsc3507@yahoo.com> Thank you for your reply. Your dealer simply needs to contact his local Trane rep at the Trane regional office and have the regional rep provide a concession on the RFI kit and if the unit has been installed less than a year, the dealer covers the labor under the dealer labor agreement. Is your refusing to assist you with this? Thank you, Consumer Relations Trane and American Standard Heating and Air Conditioning Residential Solutions Ingersoll Rand 6200 Troup Highway Tyler, TX 75707 Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: Jim, W5JO on December 06, 2011, 06:52:08 PM OK a late update.... From: "Tyler, Customer-Information" <customer-information.tyler@trane.com> To: Doug <dsc3507@yahoo.com> Thank you for your reply. Your dealer simply needs to contact his local Trane rep at the Trane regional office and have the regional rep provide a concession on the RFI kit and if the unit has been installed less than a year, the dealer covers the labor under the dealer labor agreement. Is your refusing to assist you with this? Thank you, Consumer Relations Trane and American Standard Heating and Air Conditioning Residential Solutions Ingersoll Rand 6200 Troup Highway Tyler, TX 75707 Good for you but keep the pressure on them. The dealer may stall saying he is busy or any number of other possibilities exist. They generally are fair, just don't let it fall through the cracks. Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: WA7BBI on December 06, 2011, 09:35:35 PM Doug,
I sure hope you get this resolved soon. The entire installation takes about 30 minutes, it is very simple, all the parts come in the kit. The dealer I bought my furnace from must have been a saint. From the time I called to inform them of the noise to the installation was less than 24 hours. I still get about one "S" unit of noise but I work a lot of DX too. Best Wishes and Happy Holidays. Jim Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on December 06, 2011, 10:22:08 PM Jim,
Thanks for the reply. I don't blame my installer, he's a good guy. He is probably being worked over as much as I am. I wish I did not have to involve him in the negotiations since it is not his fault and he certainly has better things to do. I also don't want him to have to pay for the parts or labor. I will let you know how it pans out. I am still taking the FCC route though and I may want to hold off on the repair in case they want to make measurements. 73 Doug Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: KA2DZT on December 07, 2011, 12:49:00 AM You would think that a major corp could produce a product to perform a particular function without crapping all over everyone else in the process.
Fred Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: The Slab Bacon on December 07, 2011, 08:56:06 AM I had a similar situation with another major provider- Comcast!
I had opted for their phone service as part of their "tripple play" deal. After about 6 months I started to have intermittant phone service, and then It crapped out all together. (after many service calls) With a 90 year old mother in a nursing home (and having health issues) and my father in law in the horsepistol just having had a heart attack, My wife and myself were getting frantic. I called them begging for my phone to be fixed. they told me that it would take another 4-5 days to get a technician out to look at it. I was furious beyond words. I was promised a service call on Saturday between 12:00 and 4:00 PM, this just screwed up my whole day and I was really pissed. They didn't show up on saturday and That was the last straw. I called them and inquired about an emergency call on Sunday as I needed a phone at that time. I was told very abruptly by the customer service rep that "we dont do service work on Sunday". Now having smoke coming out of both ears and spinning like a "wild eyed tazmanian razdassit" I filed an on-line complaint with the FCC. Well............. "The wind blew, the szht flew, and that was all she wrote!!" Apparently they must have some kind of direct link between them. Within an hour of filing my complaint, I was called by one of the supervisors at Comcast, and he even had the complaint number allready!! He assured me that a technician would be out at my house first thing SUNDAY MORNING! ! ! I read him the riot act and we negotiated monetary deal for me to keep their service!! When the pair of techs arrived on sunday morning, I told them to fix it or remove all of their equipment from my property. They actually fixed it this time and we lived happily ever after. I guess on some things The FCC can actually be your friend!! Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: WA7BBI on December 24, 2011, 09:57:44 PM Doug,
What is the latest? Here it is Christmas Eve and no word from you, are you getting any help from Trane? This problem affects a lot of people, especially buyer's of Trane and American Standard products. We need to stick together to make sure this problem is eliminated. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. 73, Jim, WA7BBI Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on January 15, 2012, 03:36:46 PM Jim and all,
Here is an update. Not too much to report. First of all I had little or no help from the ARRL which I guess is expected. I did contact my local FCC office in Langhorne, PA and so far they have been the best connection. They took down all the information and assigned an engineer. I sent over the PDF package I had put together. They want to do field measurements on the furnace and will come to Cape May, NJ to do that. It is just getting a time when I will be there and they can come. It may take a few months. Meanwhile I had mentioned to them I had a Ryobi battery charger that was a horrendous noise maker. They called last week and asked if I could bring it in. Apparently they needed work! At least measurement work. So I took it over. They were going to do field measurements on it and take it apart and photograph it. The manufacturer had jumpered where a noise filter would have gone. These tool battery chargers are a big source of noise. You can google it and see tons of complaints. The tradesman that use them have to unplug them to listen to commercial radio anywhere in the area. If I leave it plugged in here it wipes out most of the lower HF bands. So I need to call them this week and see where they stand with that as I need my charger back. I did gather the materials to make the mod to the furnace and I probably will do that myself once the FCC gets done. I will have to see where the FCC goes with this. They do send letters to manufacturers. I can tell you one thing, I am not paying the manufacturer to have it fixed. Either they will do it at cost or I will do it myself. The cost of materials to do the Trane prescribed fix is less than $40. Thanks for asking for an update. I have not had much response on this and I kind of thought I was out here on an island. Most people don't want to make waves I guess. If anyone reads this and has anything to contribute please do. I would like to hear others experiences on this. Doug WA3DSP Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: KB2WIG on January 15, 2012, 06:21:18 PM " Most people don't want to make waves I guess. "
Sometimes you have to ..... Poke a thumb into their eye. My Rheem 'Classic 90 Plus' is quiet; I can just barely hear some noise when it fires up. klc Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: flintstone mop on January 16, 2012, 07:06:18 AM Googling XV95 RFI turns up a lot of hits. And even a thread from AMFONE about 3 yrs ago.
Something about the ECM and the variable speed blower motor. Didn't seem like nothing Harry Homeowner could do to fix it. http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=17759.0 Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: WA7BBI on January 16, 2012, 06:07:32 PM Doug, I would be furious over this. Trane has a small cable with everything built in to fix this. Then they install a line filter and that is it. If it was me, my attorney would be spending the money already. They know of the problem and have a fix for it. Not 100 per cent, but usable. There is no excuse for this. Contact your congress person and have them call the FCC for you. You will be amazed how fast they show up. Also, get the press involved. Radio, TV and especially newspaper human interest story about big business against the little guy. Make NOISE and a lot of it. It will blow you away how fast the response will be. Good Luck.
Jim, WA7BBI Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on January 17, 2012, 12:28:21 AM Jim,
I agree and I was furious but it is not quite that easy. If it were then we would not have the problem. The companies know they can get away with this and they do. If you read through this thread you will see the history. My point was always that fixing mine is one thing but what about the tens of thousands of others out there that will never get fixed. Maybe mine or your next door neighbor! I already kind of have the FCC involved. They agreed to look at it but they also don't really have much ability to do anything. If it were interfering with military or public service communications it might be a different story. The very first thing the field engineer does is refer the matter to the FCC attorneys in Washington for a ruling on whether to proceed. I guess they check if the company has paid them off of not. Trane makes it very difficult because you have to deal bottom up. Their headquarters, wherever that is (Tyler, TX) has no one you can talk to. They always want you to go through your installer, who will talk to the distributor. It seems some get better deals than others. I have had some say they were installed for free, others are quoted $400 or more to install the one hour fix. I have the exact line filter they install as well as the ferrite's The only thing I don't have is the cable. I just need to get the connectors and I can make one up. So it is a lot easier to do this myself after the FCC does their thing. They can fight with the company if they chose to. Hopefully they will and it will help others. So you see how this fight in Washington right now to do away and downsize agencies left and right is only going to hurt the little guy. Personally I would rather pay a few more dollars in taxes and have the protections. Can you imagine what life would be like if the FCC went away altogether. No radiation standards. You would have 20 over 9 hash 24/7 on HF and no one to complain to or enforce anything. Sure big business is going to police itself, NOT! I don't want to discourage others from pursuing this further and I would be glad to supply any information or help in any way I can. Doug Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: KB2WIG on January 17, 2012, 12:40:04 PM Trane is a subsidary of Ingersoll Rand
" Ingersoll Rand is a $14 billion global diversified industrial company, driven by employees who are proud to offer products and solutions people use every day to create a positive impact in their world. Driven by a 100-year-old tradition of technological innovation, we enable companies and their customers to create progress. " Ingersoll-Rand plc 170/175 Lakeview Drive, Airside Business Park, Swords, Co. Dublin, Ireland klc Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: WA7BBI on January 17, 2012, 03:27:39 PM Doug, I truly admire your calmness under pressure. I know my fuse is short but it has worked for me in the past. What boggles the mind is that the fix is readily available and so simple. This is like watching someone die because the penicillan pills are 12 inches out of reach and no one will pick them up. I hope all the members will forgive my temper, but this just isn't right. I wish you well.
73, Jim, WA7BBI Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on January 17, 2012, 10:26:02 PM Jim,
You don't have to apologize. I wish more were like you. I tend to be that way myself but I know when I am beat or at least when I need to back off. I went to the FCC today to pick up my Ryobi battery charger that they did field tests on. They found excessive radiation up to 40 Mhz. So now what happens? I am not sure. They send the data to the next higher level. At least I have a contact there and I won't hesitate in the future to complain about a device that is emitting. The real problem is exactly what authority the FCC has. They aren't even able to tell me that!!! This charger has no FCC ID but radiates like hell and yet it may not be a device they have control over. Go figure. The same may be true for the furnaces. They will be in Cape May next Thursday but unfortunately I won't be there then so will have to make another date. Doug Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: DMOD on January 18, 2012, 12:03:22 AM Quote Meanwhile I had mentioned to them I had a Ryobi battery charger that was a horrendous noise maker. Interesting Doug, as my Milwaukee Tools battery charger does the same thing. I have to charge the Lithium batteries when the radio is off. I wonder if these chargers are all made by the same (foreign) company? Keep up the pressure Doug. Phil Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: kb3rdt on January 18, 2012, 02:23:04 AM I get RFI from the washer it's an LG wave force...
Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: WD5JKO on January 18, 2012, 07:20:28 AM It seems that hams might just have to tackle these issues ourselves as the bureaucratic route might be harder to overcome than the actual technical issue at hand. I found this web site that presents the EMI problem with an explanation of what is going on, and various ways to fix the issue. http://www.powerqualityanddrives.com/emi_rfi/ This site makes AC/DC motor drives, and also sells a line of EMI/RFI filters: http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_AC_Drives_Inverters/AC_Drives_Accessories.htm Jim WD5JKO Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: WD8KDG on January 18, 2012, 09:56:43 AM Bottom Line: Congress is to blame, Part 15 is their creation >:( If the RFI is in your home the issue most likely can be fixed with a filter or turn it off while on the air.
Another story when the RFI is in a neighbors home and they are Mr/Mrs NO. The FCC will do nothing. Craig, Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: WD5JKO on January 18, 2012, 08:23:28 PM Bottom Line: Congress is to blame, Part 15 is their creation >:( If the RFI is in your home the issue most likely can be fixed with a filter or turn it off while on the air. Another story when the RFI is in a neighbors home and they are Mr/Mrs NO. The FCC will do nothing. Craig, Craig, you might be correct, but remember some hams hide behind part 15 when there is an interference issue between our station and a neighbors cheap phone, speakers, etc. This is a double edged sword. The FCC usually does nothing in this case as well. I'm just trying to say that these problems like the Trane Furnace RFI issue here are solvable. As hams, and we have a bunch of very smart ones here, we can conquer issues like this without getting all stressed over govt regulations, and unconcerned companies that sell us crap and refuse to fix it. Sure we might have to recreate the wheel, but in the end we can get back to AM radio. As far as the neighbors go, there isn't much we can do as you say. But we can play with antennas, receiver bandwidth, DSP processing, etc., and even move away from an urban area to a rural area. So Doug, I wonder if you have any schematics or other info on the technical side of things that we all can look at? Do you know what parts Trane uses in the RFI kit? Regards, Jim WD5JKO Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: WD8KDG on January 18, 2012, 09:30:54 PM Bottom Line: Congress is to blame, Part 15 is their creation >:( If the RFI is in your home the issue most likely can be fixed with a filter or turn it off while on the air. Another story when the RFI is in a neighbors home and they are Mr/Mrs NO. The FCC will do nothing. Craig, Craig, you might be correct, but remember some hams hide behind part 15 when there is an interference issue between our station and a neighbors cheap phone, speakers, etc. This is a double edged sword. The FCC usually does nothing in this case as well. I'm just trying to say that these problems like the Trane Furnace RFI issue here are solvable. As hams, and we have a bunch of very smart ones here, we can conquer issues like this without getting all stressed over govt regulations, and unconcerned companies that sell us crap and refuse to fix it. Sure we might have to recreate the wheel, but in the end we can get back to AM radio. As far as the neighbors go, there isn't much we can do as you say. But we can play with antennas, receiver bandwidth, DSP processing, etc., and even move away from an urban area to a rural area. So Doug, I wonder if you have any schematics or other info on the technical side of things that we all can look at? Do you know what parts Trane uses in the RFI kit? Regards, Jim WD5JKO Not hiding behind anything. "It is the law". Anyway we look at Part 15, it puts the monkey on the consumer's back. The whore masters in China control the pimps (Washington DC lobbyist) who bribe Congress in order to pass laws which are garbage. A couple pennys more spent on each whizbang electronic item and the problem would not occur. Why should I have to move to a rural area to please whore masters in China??? Craig, Title: Re: Trane Furnace RFI Post by: wa3dsp on January 18, 2012, 10:48:36 PM I sent the attached PDF package to those who were interested but I guess it would be easier to just put it out here. This describes the Trane EMI problem and a fix. Both the company kit and added pieces by owners. AMfone - Dedicated to Amplitude Modulation on the Amateur Radio Bands
There are a number of points here that I have made before but will state again. 1. If you are a ham owner of a Trane furnace emiting EMI you have two choices. Argue with the company and more than likely pay to have it fixed or do it yourself. If you are comfortable with working with electrical (line voltage) devices it is rather easy. You have to decide if you think the warranty would be in jeopardy. If you have a good relationship with your installer than I would not think so. If not then all bets are off. 2. If you are a ham and have a problem caused by a non-ham neighbor then this is a completely different story. It is unlikely that your neighbor is going to pay to have something fixed that is not bothering them. You , of course could pay if they would agree to it. Doing the homebrew repair on your neighbors furnace is probably out of the question. So the idea of just fix it may or may not work depending on how much control you have over the situation. No amount of DSP or filtering at the receiving end will fix this. So you can eliminate that as a fix. Moving away from an urban area while a great way to fix it is just not a choice for most. This is why we have laws and restrictions on radiation. It is fairly well policed for computer equipment but there are too many items coming on the market that use computer technology (switching PS's, Microprocessor controlled, PWM power drives, etc.) that are exempt from the rules. There is absolutely no reason why they should fall under a different category than computers. The FCC has to catch up with the technology. This should be a job (lobbying) that the ARRL should carry out but we all can write our legislators about this. There is another factor here. AM radio is hanging on by a thread. HF radio is the hams, a bunch of religious broadcasters, and third world nations using used gear. No one really cares about interference there. If this were interfering with someones cell phone, wireless network, TV or FM radio then there would be an uproar. Face it amateur radio really does not have much of a voice. NOTE TO MODERATOR - Unfortunately the PDF package is not attached because this forum has a small limit of 5MB. The package is 6.5MB. Also when you enter an attachment and it errors you cannot remove the file or quit the message, so I had to save (copy) the text, close the window, and then come back in an recreate the message. 5MB seems very restrictive by today's standards. I put the package up on my web page - http://www.crompton.com/hamradio/ Scroll down to the radio links. Doug |