Maybe a reprieve from having to use CFLs?

[w1vtp]

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20110710/NEWS05/707109985

Hope they make it

[W5COA]

I read somewhere that GE had closed the last remaining incandescent light bulb plant in the USA because of the government mandate. I doubt that they would be able or inclined to reopen it.

 I also read that Phillips, who lobbied for the elimination of the incandescent bulb, has come out with an incandescent that meets the new efficiency standards. I have no idea how much it costs. Too bad that GE did not try harder.

What people don't think about is that energy efficiency in lighting only makes sense in the warmer climates where air cooling systems run 9 months out of the year. In colder climates, the incandescents help heat the buildings.

But, all the arguing aside, the peasants should be able to choose whatever works best for them, based upon cost, efficiency, light output, color, or whatever suits their fancy. The free marketplace will sort it out.

73,
Jim

[KF1Z]

""
Barton, who lost to Upton in the Energy and Commerce Committee chairman race, said he recently went on a fact-finding trip to a grocery store.

“I bought a 60-watt CFL bulb last night at Giant for $6, and I bought four 60-watt incandescents for 37.5 cents apiece, four for a buck and a half,” Barton said. “It takes a long time to make up efficiency when it’s an 18-to-1 outlay up front.”"

-------------------------------

Incandescents are usefull... for a few things....

Not going to argue any other points...

But I found this "fact finding trip.." funny...  he should do a fact finding session with his calculator!


Let's assume:

A 60 watt inc, and 60 watt CFL, are used 6 hours a day, 30 days a month, for 12 months.
And that the price of electricity is $0.13/kwh ( here in VT)


So,
After 6 months, it has cost you ( including the origianal outlay of $6 for CFL, and $0.375 for the incand)

For the CFL   $7.80   for the incandescent.  $8.775     Already spent more $ for the incandescent!

Have 10 such bulbs and you spend an extra $75 a year!

I have yet to spend more than 99 cents for a CFL, one of the only good things about living in Vermont!   :-)

[Jim, W5JO]

Don't count on any reprieve, the party that passed the bill banning them did so with whole hearted support of environmentalist organizations along with the opposition party.  I don't think any party will disappoint the environmentalist lobbies.  Not a chance.

[W1AEX]

That's an interesting development Al. Thanks for posting the link.

I received a few Home Depot and Lowes gift cards for fixing a few computers here and there. As I wandered the aisles of both stores looking for plunder, I saw several of the new LED bulbs being sold. They weren't cheap, and for a 40 watt equivalent, they ranged from around 12 bucks (on sale) to roughly 20 bucks. I found after looking some of them over, that most were labeled as compliant with Part 15, but a few others were labeled as compliant with Part 18 (Industrial, Scientific, and Medical Equipment).

I steered clear of the Part 18 offerings which seemed to indicate that interference was likely and too bad for you when it happens. I bought two different types of 40 watt equivalents that were Part 15 compliant. The 40 watt equivalent bulbs consume less than 8 watts of energy each. Their physical appearance is very much like an incandescent bulb, they do not flicker, and the light they produce looks identical to what is emitted from an incandescent. In fact, in the brightness department, the so-called 40 watt LED equivalent appears to be substantially brighter than its incandescent equivalent to my eye.

Holding a broadcast radio near either of the illuminated LED bulbs shows that they emit some RF noise in the near-field. The noise does not propagate along the AC lines, and it is not detectable from 3 feet away. With two of these bulbs lit in my Radio room, no noise is detected in any of my radio equipment. Unlike CFL bulbs, the LED bulbs do not register on my EMF meter. The LED bulb's surface does gets comfortably warm, but is certainly not hot.

If they can get the price down on the LED units, they could be very good replacements for incandescent bulbs. Instead of burning 120 watts of energy to light my room (2 x 60 watts) I now get similar lighting with 16 watts of energy. I figure I'll recoup my investment in about 50 years!!!

[Opcom]

And in rooms that were dimly lit by only a single 100W filament lamp to save money, the light can be increased to the equivalent of 300W by using four 25W CFLs. The other side of the equation has merit for those wanting more light but no increase in electrical costs.

I use fluorescent almost exclusively, either the tubes or CFLs, but some applications require filament type lamps, I don't think anyone needs a list.

[W3SLK]

I remember reading, (maybe even posting here) about the effects of flourescent lights versus incandescents. Its has something to do with the actual light spectrum and what is emitted causing people to act differently, ie moody. LED's are monochormatic like lasers.

[WBear2GCR]

LED white, like CFL white are RGB mixes...

The problem with CFLs is that their advertised life is NOT met by the cheap chinese import units. Commercial CFL bulbs from the name companies, a few years back did a lot better in the life department.

SO, the claimed savings is NOT there, especially when you factor in the cost of mfr. and not the fake subsidized cost of mfr. in China.

The light is there from less power.

The future, the near future is in LED lighting I think.

Btw, what was the configuration for that "40 watt" LED unit? How many emitters, and what was the beamwidth?? List price?

                     _-_-bear

[KA2DZT]

I just replaced another CLF that bit the dust.  They don't last as long as they claim.  I use CLFs in most all the light fixtures.  I have all CLFs in the workshop and shack.  I don't hear any interference in my receivers, but the antennas are at least 100ft from the house.  Although, I do sometimes hear some noise from CLFs on the upstairs receiver that uses a telescope antenna.

Here in NJ the electric rate is 19 cent/KWH.  I have seen a good drop in the electric bill using CLFs.  I think, on average, I've seen a drop of about 100KWHs/month.

The CLFs that I use are cheap,  about 1.50 each.  The problem with the old incandescent bulbs is they didn't last too long.  Seemed I was replacing them every few months.

An interesting side story.  Years ago when I worked construction,  I bought six 100 watt GE bulbs to use in my drop light.  We were running TV lines in crawl spaces.  By the end of the day I was down to one bulb still working.  The owner of the project gave me a 130V industrial bulb to use.  That bulb is still working and he gave it to me over 25 years ago.

Fred

[W3GMS]

I tried a few CFL's around hear and ended up tossing all of them.  I did not like the color of the light they produced not to mention the EMI.  Home Depot offered 3 different light spectrum CFL bulbs.  I bought one each of all three to see which one duplicated the shade of incandescent and none of them did.  In my lab downstairs I have a monitor receiver set up and it uses a few feet of wire to hear whatever I am working on.  The CFL's were installed in the flush mount ceiling lamps and EMI was very loud in the monitor receiver.  In addition to that, the walls looked like they were a different shade of beige!   They say some people are more sensitive to the light quality of CFL's than others.

From your report Rob, it looks like LED's are more promising.

Joe, W3GMS 

[K2PG]

I don't like the government dictating to me what kind of bulbs I can use in my light fixtures. This is a free country?

One thing that a lot of people seem to be missing about the CFL bulbs is that they are a dangerous fire hazard. The ballast is a circuit board about the size of a quarter. It is mounted inside the plastic base. As the arc tube ages, the ballast draws more current and generates more heat. When the bulb fails, the ballast may get hot enough to set the plastic base on fire. The Chicoms, notorious for cost cutting and poor quality control, do not include a thermal fuse in the bulb base. Overheating of the ballast can also result from using a CFL in a fixture connected to a dimmer switch. NEVER use these bulbs with dimmers unless they are specifically manufactured as dimmable CFLs.

Incandescent bulbs do not contain any hazardous or toxic chemicals. CFLs contain mercury. (The phosphor is usually non-toxic, as beryllium compounds have not been used in fluorescent lamp phosphor since 1949.) LEDs contain arsenic. The semiconducting compounds used in such diodes are usually arsenides of gallium and related elements.

[K5UJ]

Here we go again.   The base of a CFL is porcelain not plastic.   No one is telling anyone what bulb to use.  You  want an incandescent bulb, there are loopholes a mile wide in the lightbulb situation:   Rough service bulbs are still available and are not going out of production for one thing.   3 way bulbs will still be available.   There are a bunch of ways for any ham with some brains to get around the so-called ban.   In other countries like Australia, there really is a ban.   No incandescents period.    Here what are going out of production are the 75 and 100 watt conventional single filament bulbs.  You can get two sixties.  You can get a 150 watt and dial it down with a variac.   Or just buy the rough service bulbs which probably have a stronger filament anyway.    The media have made it seem like there is a complete total bulb ban and anyone who lights one up is going to jail.  Jeez. 

<<“I bought a 60-watt CFL bulb last night at Giant for $6, and I bought four 60-watt incandescents for 37.5 cents apiece, four for a buck and a half,” Barton said. “It takes a long time to make up efficiency when it’s an 18-to-1 outlay up front.”"
>>

That guy is a sucker--I have never seen a single sixty for six bucks.  If you shop around you can find them in 4 packs for 2 or 3 bucks.   I saw them for that here at Meijer.  Jewel has them on sale frequently too.

[K3ZS]

I installed four 130 V floodlights, high up on my two story house.   This was after wiring my house in 1973.   They are still working, I will need a long ladder to replace them if they ever fail.    If they do fail, they will be replaced with LED floodlights, no matter what the cost may be, getting too old to climb long ladders.

[Bill, KD0HG]

There are 100 watt, 120/130 volt conventional bulbs available for tower lighting, traffic lights and airport runways that aren't going away. Very well built bulbs with extra filament supports.

[Jim, W5JO]

Two things, first if you have trouble with the incandescent bulbs not lasting, get 130 volt bulbs.  They produce a little less light and reduce cost a bit.  Our REC sells them but will stop because of the ban imposed by the government.

Second many people can detect the flicker of CFL and florescent bulbs.  Ask anyone who suffers from migraine headaches.  If they have the headaches florescent bulbs of can trigger a response, sometimes resulting in a hospital stay.  Migraine headaches are much more common that you might think.

This was another solution looking for a problem and something agencies of the government do constantly to justify thir existence.

[W3SLK]

Jim said:

This was another solution looking for a problem and something agencies of the government do constantly to justify thir existence.

Bingo!

[k4kyv]

An interesting side story.  Years ago when I worked construction,  I bought six 100 watt GE bulbs to use in my drop light.  We were running TV lines in crawl spaces.  By the end of the day I was down to one bulb still working.  The owner of the project gave me a 130V industrial bulb to use.  That bulb is still working and he gave it to me over 25 years ago.

That's why I think it's futile to stock up on regular run-of-the-mill incandescents. The things are extremely flimsy and short lived.  Look at the filament construction. Until a few years ago, the filament was circular in shape, laid out in a plane perpendicular to the axis of the base, supported by several wires coming out of the base embedded in the  glass.  In recent ones, there is only a single straight strand of filament wire in line with the axis of the base, supported only at each end.  You can gently tap on a lit bulb and see the hot filament jiggle back and forth.  Dropping one only a few inches on to a wooden table is often enough to break the filament.

Heavy duty bulbs, including the ones made for ceiling fans and appliances, as well as the rough use types, still use the heavier filament with multiple support wires. Many of the "long life" bulbs are actually rebranded off-the-shelf 130v industrial bulbs. A 100-watt 130v bulb runs at about 90 watts on 115 volts. Its life is extended several-fold by the reduced voltage, but it runs at lower efficiency.

I used to purchase overpriced "long life" bulbs from some outfit called Handicapped Workers of America. These were made in Eastern Europe, and even had the old fashioned brass base. They had the heavy filament and low efficiency of 40's era bulbs, but I could use them in my portable work lamp while doing car work, and not crap them out with the slightest bump.  I have even dropped that lamp on the concrete floor a few times without crapping out the bulb.  I'm pretty sure the Handicapped Worker bulbs were merely stock consumer light bulbs from one of a handful of countries in Eastern Europe that use 120 mains volts instead of 240.

I used to get junk phone calls all the time from the Handicapped Workers trying to sell me more bulbs. Finally, I told them to stop calling because the bulbs I had already bought from them were so good that none of them had burnt out and I didn't need any more, and would call and let them know when I did need more.    I haven't heard from them in a long time.

My biggest gripe about CFLs is (1) they do generate radio hash and (2) they are not as long-lived as they are cracked up to be.  I have seen some that gave out pretty much the same light as incandescents. As Rob says, the base is ceramic, not plastic, but I have heard stories of them causing fires.  I had one to give off a puff of smoke when it burnt out, and the residue made the base freeze in the socket, but I managed to get it unscrewed and there was no sign that it had come anywhere close to catching the house on fire.

When I was a kid in grammar school, they used the old fashioned long tube fluorescents. I could sense the flicker, and even though I was never known to have migraines, I did often develop mild headaches while at school, that never occurred the same time of day when I was home.

No need for a government ban on incandescents. If CFLs, or something else that comes along, really are superior, people will buy them and eventually incandescents will effectively phase themselves out as sales slow to a trickle. Trying to outright ban incandescents kind of reminds me of the efforts in the 50s, 60s and 70s to ban AM and force everyone to convert to slopbucket. The transition would have been a lot smoother if the hard sell campaign had never happened. Most hams would have eventually acquired SSB capability and probably used both modes, and to-day, the situation would be just exactly as it is. There would still be AM on the bands, but the lion's share of phone activity would be SSB.  The animosity between the two modes would have never occurred, or at least would have never developed to the intensity that it did.

[Steve - K4HX]

White LEDs are actually blue LEDs with a phosphor coating. The overall spectral output of the phophor is broad and apprear as white to the eye. But they still have a strong peak in 450-475 nm range.

LED white, like CFL white are RGB mixes...

[K6JEK]

I put in a couple of the wildly expensive Cree CR6 spots from the Home Despot. They are excellent.  My architect friend who still eschews CFLs ("It's not just the color temperature") gives these a thumbs up.  They look good, are very efficient, are dim-able and are supposed to last a very long time. If they cost one quarter what they do, I'd go through the house and replace the bulbs in all the cans.  But they're still nutso expensive.

[Bill, KD0HG]

White LEDs are actually blue LEDs with a phosphor coating. The overall spectral output of the phophor is broad and apprear as white to the eye. But they still have a strong peak in 450-475 nm range.

LED white, like CFL white are RGB mixes...

I was recently reading a story indicating that artificial light in the shorter wavelengths, towards blue, can screw up human sleep patters, while light in the longer wavelengths does not have an effect. This was first noted in people that spend a lot of time in front of a computer screen.

Looks like a good research study for chicken egg production..?

Don- They've had long-persistence phosphors forever, going back to the CRT days, why haven't they been used in both traditional and compact florescents? Maybe most people don't notice the flicker?

Yes, I believe the future is going to be LED lighting. The current price is just so bloody ridiculous.

[KB2WIG]

" I used to purchase overpriced "long life" bulbs from some outfit called Handicapped Workers of America. "

Yeaaih, smore anecdotal evidence.

Years ago, the restaurant that I frequented had a storefront boiler room next door. The guys had a sign in the window; a wheelchair superimposed onto a light bulb (AKA 'lamp'). These guys cold called people and sold lamps. I overheard one of the criminals salesman say, " the phone kept cutting out, so I told the guy that my wheelchair was hitting the wires."  Lots 'o laughs. He didn't have a chair with him.

Some people are scumbags.

klc

[K2PG]

Here we go again.   The base of a CFL is porcelain not plastic. 

The ones I had, until I threw them away, all had plastic bases. And I have seen some of those melt, smoke, and stink when the bulb burned out. Want to use CFLs? Better make sure your fire insurance is paid up!

I still don't want the government restricting my choices and requiring me to buy an inferior product at a higher price...although I will stock up on the industrial incandescent bulbs as long as I can get them. This whole ban was pushed through by Philips, a foreign firm that invented the CFL some 30 years ago in Holland.

[K2PG]

Don- They've had long-persistence phosphors forever, going back to the CRT days, why haven't they been used in both traditional and compact florescents? Maybe most people don't notice the flicker?

Probably price is the consideration here. Zinc sulphide is the most common base for the "cool white" phosphor in standard fluorescent tubes. I have never noticed any flicker in fluorescent lamps in this country, except in a fluorescent tube that was failing, but I could see it at the ends of fluorescent tubes in Europe, where the line frequency is 50 Hz. However, there is some flicker in 60 Hz countries. You can see evidence of it by placing a strobe disc on a turntable and viewing it under fluorescent light. If the lines creep, the turntable is running off-speed. The strobe lines will not be visible under incandescent light and they should not be visible under CFL light, for the reason mentioned below.

Since CFLs operate at radio frequencies, typically below the AM broadcast band, there should be no visible flicker in any country.

[k4kyv]

I still don't want the government restricting my choices and requiring me to buy an inferior product at a higher price...although I will stock up on the industrial incandescent bulbs as long as I can get them. This whole ban was pushed through by Philips, a foreign firm that invented the CFL some 30 years ago in Holland.

That's the root of the problem... government-by Wall Street, AKA the Corporate State. Despite what the foaming-at-the-mouth AM radio windbags keep yelling over and over, most of this crap is not some commie/socialist scheme out of Cuba or from disgruntled refugees from the ex-USSR out to "destroy America", but the result of lobbying efforts by someone with deep pockets, hoping to make a killing off it, knowing they will pay minimal taxes to boot.

Another rip-off was "high output halogen" incandescent lamps they sold a few years ago at about $10 a throw.  I bought a couple for the shack, because they were supposed to be brighter and longer lived than regular incandescents and it takes a trip up the step ladder to replace the ones in the shack. One of mine crapped out after only a few days, and the other lasted about the same as a regular flimsy-filament 35¢ incandescent. The one that lasted only a few days popped like a firecracker when it blew.  The glass, about as thick as the old fashioned 6-oz coke bottle, had several cracks in it. And the things run about twice as hot as a regular lamp, even with the greater luminescence.

[W1VD]

We should be free to purchase the appropriate type of bulbs based on need, desire and economic considerations ... not told what we can purchase by jackass congressmen, senators and presidents.