The AM Forum

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20110710/NEWS05/707109985

Hope they make it

I read somewhere that GE had closed the last remaining incandescent light bulb plant in the USA because of the government mandate. I doubt that they would be able or inclined to reopen it.

 I also read that Phillips, who lobbied for the elimination of the incandescent bulb, has come out with an incandescent that meets the new efficiency standards. I have no idea how much it costs. Too bad that GE did not try harder.

What people don't think about is that energy efficiency in lighting only makes sense in the warmer climates where air cooling systems run 9 months out of the year. In colder climates, the incandescents help heat the buildings.

But, all the arguing aside, the peasants should be able to choose whatever works best for them, based upon cost, efficiency, light output, color, or whatever suits their fancy. The free marketplace will sort it out.

73,
Jim

""
Barton, who lost to Upton in the Energy and Commerce Committee chairman race, said he recently went on a fact-finding trip to a grocery store.

“I bought a 60-watt CFL bulb last night at Giant for $6, and I bought four 60-watt incandescents for 37.5 cents apiece, four for a buck and a half,” Barton said. “It takes a long time to make up efficiency when it’s an 18-to-1 outlay up front.”"

-------------------------------

Incandescents are usefull... for a few things....

Not going to argue any other points...

But I found this "fact finding trip.." funny...  he should do a fact finding session with his calculator!


Let's assume:

A 60 watt inc, and 60 watt CFL, are used 6 hours a day, 30 days a month, for 12 months.
And that the price of electricity is $0.13/kwh ( here in VT)


So,
After 6 months, it has cost you ( including the origianal outlay of $6 for CFL, and $0.375 for the incand)

For the CFL   $7.80   for the incandescent.  $8.775     Already spent more $ for the incandescent!

Have 10 such bulbs and you spend an extra $75 a year!

I have yet to spend more than 99 cents for a CFL, one of the only good things about living in Vermont!   :-)

Don't count on any reprieve, the party that passed the bill banning them did so with whole hearted support of environmentalist organizations along with the opposition party.  I don't think any party will disappoint the environmentalist lobbies.  Not a chance.

That's an interesting development Al. Thanks for posting the link.

I received a few Home Depot and Lowes gift cards for fixing a few computers here and there. As I wandered the aisles of both stores looking for plunder, I saw several of the new LED bulbs being sold. They weren't cheap, and for a 40 watt equivalent, they ranged from around 12 bucks (on sale) to roughly 20 bucks. I found after looking some of them over, that most were labeled as compliant with Part 15, but a few others were labeled as compliant with Part 18 (Industrial, Scientific, and Medical Equipment).

I steered clear of the Part 18 offerings which seemed to indicate that interference was likely and too bad for you when it happens. I bought two different types of 40 watt equivalents that were Part 15 compliant. The 40 watt equivalent bulbs consume less than 8 watts of energy each. Their physical appearance is very much like an incandescent bulb, they do not flicker, and the light they produce looks identical to what is emitted from an incandescent. In fact, in the brightness department, the so-called 40 watt LED equivalent appears to be substantially brighter than its incandescent equivalent to my eye.

Holding a broadcast radio near either of the illuminated LED bulbs shows that they emit some RF noise in the near-field. The noise does not propagate along the AC lines, and it is not detectable from 3 feet away. With two of these bulbs lit in my Radio room, no noise is detected in any of my radio equipment. Unlike CFL bulbs, the LED bulbs do not register on my EMF meter. The LED bulb's surface does gets comfortably warm, but is certainly not hot.

If they can get the price down on the LED units, they could be very good replacements for incandescent bulbs. Instead of burning 120 watts of energy to light my room (2 x 60 watts) I now get similar lighting with 16 watts of energy. I figure I'll recoup my investment in about 50 years!!!

And in rooms that were dimly lit by only a single 100W filament lamp to save money, the light can be increased to the equivalent of 300W by using four 25W CFLs. The other side of the equation has merit for those wanting more light but no increase in electrical costs.

I use fluorescent almost exclusively, either the tubes or CFLs, but some applications require filament type lamps, I don't think anyone needs a list.

I remember reading, (maybe even posting here) about the effects of flourescent lights versus incandescents. Its has something to do with the actual light spectrum and what is emitted causing people to act differently, ie moody. LED's are monochormatic like lasers.

LED white, like CFL white are RGB mixes...

The problem with CFLs is that their advertised life is NOT met by the cheap chinese import units. Commercial CFL bulbs from the name companies, a few years back did a lot better in the life department.

SO, the claimed savings is NOT there, especially when you factor in the cost of mfr. and not the fake subsidized cost of mfr. in China.

The light is there from less power.

The future, the near future is in LED lighting I think.

Btw, what was the configuration for that "40 watt" LED unit? How many emitters, and what was the beamwidth?? List price?

                     _-_-bear

I just replaced another CLF that bit the dust.  They don't last as long as they claim.  I use CLFs in most all the light fixtures.  I have all CLFs in the workshop and shack.  I don't hear any interference in my receivers, but the antennas are at least 100ft from the house.  Although, I do sometimes hear some noise from CLFs on the upstairs receiver that uses a telescope antenna.

Here in NJ the electric rate is 19 cent/KWH.  I have seen a good drop in the electric bill using CLFs.  I think, on average, I've seen a drop of about 100KWHs/month.

The CLFs that I use are cheap,  about 1.50 each.  The problem with the old incandescent bulbs is they didn't last too long.  Seemed I was replacing them every few months.

An interesting side story.  Years ago when I worked construction,  I bought six 100 watt GE bulbs to use in my drop light.  We were running TV lines in crawl spaces.  By the end of the day I was down to one bulb still working.  The owner of the project gave me a 130V industrial bulb to use.  That bulb is still working and he gave it to me over 25 years ago.

Fred

I tried a few CFL's around hear and ended up tossing all of them.  I did not like the color of the light they produced not to mention the EMI.  Home Depot offered 3 different light spectrum CFL bulbs.  I bought one each of all three to see which one duplicated the shade of incandescent and none of them did.  In my lab downstairs I have a monitor receiver set up and it uses a few feet of wire to hear whatever I am working on.  The CFL's were installed in the flush mount ceiling lamps and EMI was very loud in the monitor receiver.  In addition to that, the walls looked like they were a different shade of beige!   They say some people are more sensitive to the light quality of CFL's than others.

From your report Rob, it looks like LED's are more promising.

Joe, W3GMS 

I don't like the government dictating to me what kind of bulbs I can use in my light fixtures. This is a free country?

One thing that a lot of people seem to be missing about the CFL bulbs is that they are a dangerous fire hazard. The ballast is a circuit board about the size of a quarter. It is mounted inside the plastic base. As the arc tube ages, the ballast draws more current and generates more heat. When the bulb fails, the ballast may get hot enough to set the plastic base on fire. The Chicoms, notorious for cost cutting and poor quality control, do not include a thermal fuse in the bulb base. Overheating of the ballast can also result from using a CFL in a fixture connected to a dimmer switch. NEVER use these bulbs with dimmers unless they are specifically manufactured as dimmable CFLs.

Incandescent bulbs do not contain any hazardous or toxic chemicals. CFLs contain mercury. (The phosphor is usually non-toxic, as beryllium compounds have not been used in fluorescent lamp phosphor since 1949.) LEDs contain arsenic. The semiconducting compounds used in such diodes are usually arsenides of gallium and related elements.

Here we go again.   The base of a CFL is porcelain not plastic.   No one is telling anyone what bulb to use.  You  want an incandescent bulb, there are loopholes a mile wide in the lightbulb situation:   Rough service bulbs are still available and are not going out of production for one thing.   3 way bulbs will still be available.   There are a bunch of ways for any ham with some brains to get around the so-called ban.   In other countries like Australia, there really is a ban.   No incandescents period.    Here what are going out of production are the 75 and 100 watt conventional single filament bulbs.  You can get two sixties.  You can get a 150 watt and dial it down with a variac.   Or just buy the rough service bulbs which probably have a stronger filament anyway.    The media have made it seem like there is a complete total bulb ban and anyone who lights one up is going to jail.  Jeez. 

<<“I bought a 60-watt CFL bulb last night at Giant for $6, and I bought four 60-watt incandescents for 37.5 cents apiece, four for a buck and a half,” Barton said. “It takes a long time to make up efficiency when it’s an 18-to-1 outlay up front.”"
>>

That guy is a sucker--I have never seen a single sixty for six bucks.  If you shop around you can find them in 4 packs for 2 or 3 bucks.   I saw them for that here at Meijer.  Jewel has them on sale frequently too.

I installed four 130 V floodlights, high up on my two story house.   This was after wiring my house in 1973.   They are still working, I will need a long ladder to replace them if they ever fail.    If they do fail, they will be replaced with LED floodlights, no matter what the cost may be, getting too old to climb long ladders.

There are 100 watt, 120/130 volt conventional bulbs available for tower lighting, traffic lights and airport runways that aren't going away. Very well built bulbs with extra filament supports.

Two things, first if you have trouble with the incandescent bulbs not lasting, get 130 volt bulbs.  They produce a little less light and reduce cost a bit.  Our REC sells them but will stop because of the ban imposed by the government.

Second many people can detect the flicker of CFL and florescent bulbs.  Ask anyone who suffers from migraine headaches.  If they have the headaches florescent bulbs of can trigger a response, sometimes resulting in a hospital stay.  Migraine headaches are much more common that you might think.

This was another solution looking for a problem and something agencies of the government do constantly to justify thir existence.

Jim said:
Bingo!

That's why I think it's futile to stock up on regular run-of-the-mill incandescents. The things are extremely flimsy and short lived.  Look at the filament construction. Until a few years ago, the filament was circular in shape, laid out in a plane perpendicular to the axis of the base, supported by several wires coming out of the base embedded in the  glass.  In recent ones, there is only a single straight strand of filament wire in line with the axis of the base, supported only at each end.  You can gently tap on a lit bulb and see the hot filament jiggle back and forth.  Dropping one only a few inches on to a wooden table is often enough to break the filament.

Heavy duty bulbs, including the ones made for ceiling fans and appliances, as well as the rough use types, still use the heavier filament with multiple support wires. Many of the "long life" bulbs are actually rebranded off-the-shelf 130v industrial bulbs. A 100-watt 130v bulb runs at about 90 watts on 115 volts. Its life is extended several-fold by the reduced voltage, but it runs at lower efficiency.

I used to purchase overpriced "long life" bulbs from some outfit called Handicapped Workers of America. These were made in Eastern Europe, and even had the old fashioned brass base. They had the heavy filament and low efficiency of 40's era bulbs, but I could use them in my portable work lamp while doing car work, and not crap them out with the slightest bump.  I have even dropped that lamp on the concrete floor a few times without crapping out the bulb.  I'm pretty sure the Handicapped Worker bulbs were merely stock consumer light bulbs from one of a handful of countries in Eastern Europe that use 120 mains volts instead of 240.

I used to get junk phone calls all the time from the Handicapped Workers trying to sell me more bulbs. Finally, I told them to stop calling because the bulbs I had already bought from them were so good that none of them had burnt out and I didn't need any more, and would call and let them know when I did need more.  ;D  I haven't heard from them in a long time.

My biggest gripe about CFLs is (1) they do generate radio hash and (2) they are not as long-lived as they are cracked up to be.  I have seen some that gave out pretty much the same light as incandescents. As Rob says, the base is ceramic, not plastic, but I have heard stories of them causing fires.  I had one to give off a puff of smoke when it burnt out, and the residue made the base freeze in the socket, but I managed to get it unscrewed and there was no sign that it had come anywhere close to catching the house on fire.

When I was a kid in grammar school, they used the old fashioned long tube fluorescents. I could sense the flicker, and even though I was never known to have migraines, I did often develop mild headaches while at school, that never occurred the same time of day when I was home.

No need for a government ban on incandescents. If CFLs, or something else that comes along, really are superior, people will buy them and eventually incandescents will effectively phase themselves out as sales slow to a trickle. Trying to outright ban incandescents kind of reminds me of the efforts in the 50s, 60s and 70s to ban AM and force everyone to convert to slopbucket. The transition would have been a lot smoother if the hard sell campaign had never happened. Most hams would have eventually acquired SSB capability and probably used both modes, and to-day, the situation would be just exactly as it is. There would still be AM on the bands, but the lion's share of phone activity would be SSB.  The animosity between the two modes would have never occurred, or at least would have never developed to the intensity that it did.

White LEDs are actually blue LEDs with a phosphor coating. The overall spectral output of the phophor is broad and apprear as white to the eye. But they still have a strong peak in 450-475 nm range.

I put in a couple of the wildly expensive Cree CR6 spots from the Home Despot. They are excellent.  My architect friend who still eschews CFLs ("It's not just the color temperature") gives these a thumbs up.  They look good, are very efficient, are dim-able and are supposed to last a very long time. If they cost one quarter what they do, I'd go through the house and replace the bulbs in all the cans.  But they're still nutso expensive.

I was recently reading a story indicating that artificial light in the shorter wavelengths, towards blue, can screw up human sleep patters, while light in the longer wavelengths does not have an effect. This was first noted in people that spend a lot of time in front of a computer screen.

Looks like a good research study for chicken egg production..?

Don- They've had long-persistence phosphors forever, going back to the CRT days, why haven't they been used in both traditional and compact florescents? Maybe most people don't notice the flicker?

Yes, I believe the future is going to be LED lighting. The current price is just so bloody ridiculous.

" I used to purchase overpriced "long life" bulbs from some outfit called Handicapped Workers of America. "

Yeaaih, smore anecdotal evidence.

Years ago, the restaurant that I frequented had a storefront boiler room next door. The guys had a sign in the window; a wheelchair superimposed onto a light bulb (AKA 'lamp'). These guys cold called people and sold lamps. I overheard one of the criminals salesman say, " the phone kept cutting out, so I told the guy that my wheelchair was hitting the wires."  Lots 'o laughs. He didn't have a chair with him.

Some people are scumbags.

klc

The ones I had, until I threw them away, all had plastic bases. And I have seen some of those melt, smoke, and stink when the bulb burned out. Want to use CFLs? Better make sure your fire insurance is paid up!

I still don't want the government restricting my choices and requiring me to buy an inferior product at a higher price...although I will stock up on the industrial incandescent bulbs as long as I can get them. This whole ban was pushed through by Philips, a foreign firm that invented the CFL some 30 years ago in Holland.

Probably price is the consideration here. Zinc sulphide is the most common base for the "cool white" phosphor in standard fluorescent tubes. I have never noticed any flicker in fluorescent lamps in this country, except in a fluorescent tube that was failing, but I could see it at the ends of fluorescent tubes in Europe, where the line frequency is 50 Hz. However, there is some flicker in 60 Hz countries. You can see evidence of it by placing a strobe disc on a turntable and viewing it under fluorescent light. If the lines creep, the turntable is running off-speed. The strobe lines will not be visible under incandescent light and they should not be visible under CFL light, for the reason mentioned below.

Since CFLs operate at radio frequencies, typically below the AM broadcast band, there should be no visible flicker in any country.

That's the root of the problem... government-by Wall Street, AKA the Corporate State. Despite what the foaming-at-the-mouth AM radio windbags keep yelling over and over, most of this crap is not some commie/socialist scheme out of Cuba or from disgruntled refugees from the ex-USSR out to "destroy America", but the result of lobbying efforts by someone with deep pockets, hoping to make a killing off it, knowing they will pay minimal taxes to boot.

Another rip-off was "high output halogen" incandescent lamps they sold a few years ago at about $10 a throw.  I bought a couple for the shack, because they were supposed to be brighter and longer lived than regular incandescents and it takes a trip up the step ladder to replace the ones in the shack. One of mine crapped out after only a few days, and the other lasted about the same as a regular flimsy-filament 35¢ incandescent. The one that lasted only a few days popped like a firecracker when it blew.  The glass, about as thick as the old fashioned 6-oz coke bottle, had several cracks in it. And the things run about twice as hot as a regular lamp, even with the greater luminescence.

We should be free to purchase the appropriate type of bulbs based on need, desire and economic considerations ... not told what we can purchase by jackass congressmen, senators and presidents.  :o

My wife can detect the flicker and as a result we bought light fixtures for our new house that does not use florescent tubes.  She will pay for LED if necessary to avoid florescent.  Good LED bulbs with enough light output is VERY expensive.  Check the prices at places like Bulb Direct and such.  Makes me want to close the EPA and other agencies.  When I get to be King!

If an LED is operated directly from an AC power source, it, too, will flicker. Since an LED is a diode, it will only conduct over half of the cycle. It will only produce light over the conducting half of the cycle. Try a little experiment: Connect a red LED in series with a 470 ohm resistor and use a 6.3 volt filament transformer as a power source. Out of the corner of your eye, you will see flicker in the LED. That will probably drive your wife crazy!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036855/

Home Depot has some good sales on 60W contractor packs of incandescent bulbs from time to time.  I have several hundred stocked away at this point.  They are made by Phillips and 16 per carton.  I think I paid a little under 3 bucks for the entire 16 pack.  I usually have to replace them every 6 months or so.   

Joe, W3GMS     

When the cold and dark season comes I swap out the CFLs for incandescents for the lights that are regularly used and use them to supplement the heating bill.  The house is fairly heat efficient so heat from the bulbs causes the oil burner to run a tiny bit less.   Plus since 75m QRN is less it makes sense to reduce the background noise.

I've also been watching LED prices. they should be dirt cheap when I run out of bulbs. I bet 1/2 the leads conduct at a time to eliminate flicker by conducting over the whole cycle

I have fluorescent lighting over my workbench area. Replaced some drive belts on two turntables and was able to view the strobe lines on the strobe disc markings that were on each platter. Made it easy to adjust the variable speed motors driving the platter to eliminate too fast/slow platter movement by watching the strobe markings for zero creep. I could not see or feel any fluorescent flicking even after several hours at the workbench. I've used fluorescent lighting there for over 30 years.

I bought a bunch of these contractor packs too. We have several light fixtures, where, because of the decorative glass design, CFL's won't work unless you remove and discard the decorative glass. So, for now, regular incandescent bulbs will only work in these fixtures.

  Are you trying to reduce my manhood?

I just bought about 35 - 5 and 6 watt warm white LED bulbs and they are great. Very warm light and fully dimmable. No one has noticed that they are not incandescents. They are getting cheaper and they have an expected life of 20 years and a no questions asked 10 year replacement warranty. Cost about $12 each,  but cut my lighting consumption by at least 90%. In a year or two, they will replace CFLs for non comercial use.

I also bought several 14 watt outdoor floods and they are also very nice and bright and warm.

I probably wouldn't recommend getting them quite yet because of cost - but they will eventually replace incandescents and CFL. They are doing so quickly in commercial and industrial use. The new 400 watt metal halide LED replacement fixtures are amazing with beautiful color and low wattage. Still a little expensive but have taken on the old reliable highly energy efficiency fixtures and beaten them by 1/2.

That's not a bad idea.  Expecially if you can get the 130 v. filaments.

Yeah and they run cooler too so the FLIR equipped choppers don't see bright red roofs on a night time sweep of the city. j/k :P :P

What business would they have flying over and scanning my roof anyway?

What business do they have in flying satellites and doing the same thing for the last several decades? What business does Google have driving by your house and taking photos? It's not about business. You're asking the wrong question.

That's exactly right Don. I suspect that it was never necessary to ban the horse and buggy once the internal combustion engine hit the streets.

The three pictures below show the empty package for a $19 Philips 40 watt equivalent LED bulb (8 watts - promising a 25,000 hour lifespan) that is shown competing with a 40 watt incandescent in the next picture. The light is so similar that in the last picture it's impossible to tell through the lampshade which is which. All of the LED bulbs I have looked at seem to use a ceramic heatsink type of structure at the base. It is warmer than the bulb itself after several hours of operation.

Rob W1AEX

I run a mix of incandescent and LEDs throughout the house and lab - no CFLs  due to ELF, VLF and LF operations.

Been using this LED flood outdoors (mounted under a roof overhang) for about six months with excellent results. It replaced an 85 watt halogen flood that replaced a 100 watt incandescent. This LED is brighter than either of those and provides a wide field of light at just 18 watts.

Unfortunately, I've only seen it in one particular Home Depot store ... and in that store the spot on the shelf is usually bare. It's a bit unusual looking compared to most other floods with it's full rounded front 'diffuser'. At about $34 they aren't cheap but if you run one all night (like I do) it's noticeable on the electric bill.

Packaged by Ecosmart. Model # BR40, Registration number R31N-P3VHTS.

Info on bulb: ECS BR40 W27 120, 120VAC 60 Hz, 200 mA 18W 1211, E320663

Would be interesting to hear from others about their LED experiences.

   

I wonder what the incandescent light bulbs will be listed as on eBay? Remember they will not allow a CB linear to be listed as an 11 meter amp but if you say it's a ten meter amp, it's allowed. I think they will always be a supply of old fashion bulbs around.

I can see it now, a guy sitting in a Federal prison with murders, rapist, bank robbers, err what are you in here for says one inmate to the new guy, selling light bulbs ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? 

We were using blue LED lamps to indicate our safety showers. They were guaranteed to last 10 years. They didn't make it past 6 months. We went back to using blue patio lamps.

I have experienced this problem more than once.  One night a CFL in a standard bedroom lamp (with flammable shade) started to flicker and go dim. Then it flickers and blinked a few times and went out.  As I approached the lamp I noticed a distinct burning odor, and, much to my dismay I noticed that the base of the bulb was so hot that in spots it was glowing red.  I removed the shade and I watched it for a minute, fire extinguisher handy, just to see how far this thing would go.  It continued to smoke and glow for another 30 seconds or so and then it went dead. Fortunately it didn't actually flame.

The dang base of the bulb was more than hot enough to melt solder. It took about ten minutes for the base to cool down to the point where I could touch it and unscrew it from the fixture. Upon  examining it closely I noticed the plastic base was heavily discolored and had melted clear through in a couple of spots.

A lot of people think that the plastic is supposed to be "flame resistant" but I wouldn't count on it. Especially with some of the ultra cheap-o Chinese imports.  I was reading an article from the NFPA about tests that have been done by various fire departments and fire investigators on many different common household electrical devices (i.e. heaters, toasters, fans, lamps, wall thermostats, coffee makers, etc, that are made from plastic.  In almost all cases the plastic was not "flame proof" or "fire resistant" as most people tend to believe.. Once ignition began, even from a few tiny sparks or overheated components the plastic continued to melt and burn furiously , often dripping flaming molten plastic onto other flammable objects, i.e. sofa's, rugs, beds, wood flooring, etc. They might as well have been made from napalm.

At some future date I'd like to run some of my own flammability tests on some burned out CFL's.

they are good in automotive "droplights" as they will take the bumps and drops much better than conventional filamentary bulbs. some of the cheapo incandescents will only take one bump without going out. (a real genuine pain in the ass when you are under a car) The CFLs are great for that, but....................

We have converted all of our lights in the house to CFLs and noticed a noticable savings in our electric bill. (It does help offset the cost of running our A/C).
BUT, I HAVE YET TO SEE ONE OF THOSE POSs LAST ANY LENGTH OF TIME! ! ! ! !
We are always replacing them, sometimes they only last a few months at best.
I believe the cheapo incandescents will outlast them in standard lamp or cieling light service.

We have started returning them to the stores and bitching about it, and the stores will usually replace them with little or no argument. (the war dept may be little, but she can be very feisty when pissed off) Maybe the stores know something that we dont!

I had a similar experience with LED flashlights.  I went through three of them, and not a single one lasted through more than the second battery change. Most crapped out before the first set of batteries went dead.  First one LED gets dim, then goes out, then another, then another.  I threw them away at that point. After the  same experience multiple times, went back to incandescent.

I have also heard that they can be very nasty when they die.  Another Ham friend had one go bad and he was glad he was home when the thing bit the dust.  

In my past life, my engineering group in addition to power design work, was also responsible for getting safety and regulatory approval on all of our products that we developed.  UL was very tuff in the examination process and they dug very deep.  We had to list all the materials used in the product which included flammability data.  We also were required to go in and force certain critical faults and see how the product reacted to those faults.  We called that "abnormal fault testing"  So its a bit surprising that the CFL bulbs exhibit the characteristics they do under fault conditions.  The products we developed were very large Enterprise Servers.  In many cases the testing on consumer products was even more extensive.  The same was true with EMI-EMC-ESD along with susceptibility testing.  A long and grueling cycle.  I left the industry in 2008 so it was not that long ago.  

Joe, W3GMS          

Joe,
      We have done similar stuff here, we built and marketed an electric lock controller for a door product we were selling at the time. It was nothing more than a "brute force" 24vdc power supply and 2 relays on a pc board. It was a real pain to get it approved. We had to do all of the same stuff as well as "test to destruction"
What a pain in the you know what!!

Then some years back when no one else was mfring them yet we designed "blast resistant" windows to meet antiterrorist specs. We had to perform days of testing in the presence of PEs. The ultimate end was "test to destruction" after they met and exceeded the current specs of that time.

So the bottom line is: How do they get away with mfring and marketing all of the sub standard consumer electronic stuff that is on the market today? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

"  So the bottom line is: How do they get away with mfring and marketing all of the sub standard consumer electronic stuff that is on the market today? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? "

Simple. You followed the rules and 'they' did not.

klc

I haven't seen the UL seal on any of the CFL bulbs.  Did I miss it or is it absent?

Frank,

Yes a lot of the agency testing is tuff but its the law and we always did it.  At times I was under tremendous pressure by upper more senior management than me to sign off on documents saying we passed when we did not.  Since I was the manager and had the overall responsible, I never gave in.  There were some real shouting matching behind closed doors in my office!  If we missed a ship schedule then we would just miss the ship date until the problem was fixed.     

Since we sold products all over the world we had to deal with individual agencies in many countries.  The EU (European Union) is somewhat harmonized.  Many of those countries outside of the EU had there own specific regulations.  China was really tuff, so its ironic that we suspect that a lot of there stuff does not meet the required EMI and overall regulatory requirements.  I can tell you stories sometimes about the regulatory structure in China and some of our trials and tribulations but I will wait until I see you!!  Thailand and Korea were interesting to deal with as well.  The bottom line for products leaving the US, is that you could not ship them to any country whose symbol did not appear on your product label.       

Radiated EMI got tougher and tougher to meet since manufacturing facilities wanted snap together assemblies without needing any tools to put something together.  At the same time our clock frequencies on multiple core processors kept going higher and higher so it presented its own set of challenges.  As differential signal transmissions became more and more common, having a balance pair really helped. 

Jim,
The CFL that I have seen do have a safety certification marked on them.


Joe, W3GMS

   

On some or most CFL packaging they mention the method of use.  In a lot of cases they state not to use them in enclosed fixtures or in orientations other than straight up and down for heat dissapation.  If that's true then what good are they.  Even in standard table top light fixtures I've had them just plain quit, flicker then quit or worse and flame out and smoke up your place like John stated.  If heat is an issue then why not provide ventilation to the electronics?  I thought about drilling holes in them because I have had many fail in ceiling fixtures.  I've opened up failed CFLs and I can't believe that these things don't have thermal fuses in them for situations where they overheat.  A friend of mine who is a fire fighter stated that CFLs should be used in a vertical orientation with glass up and in a open fixture for longevity and safety. I argued that having one in an enclosed fixture would be safer because I don't trust the things.

Add one more thing. I haven't been to a rock concert in a very long time. I went to a Deep Purple concert in Hartford last month.  Most of their stage lighting used LEDs  or LED arrays driven by controllers.  Not only where the LEDs bright but they had control over brightness and hue by blending various colors.  As someone mentioned, I don't know how long an LED array would last having the snots driven out of them but they sure look good. Stage lighting sure has changed in the last 10 or so years.

RKW,
That concurs with what I've read in one of the trade magazines.  It's heat and postioning of the bulb and it's ability for the components to properly withstand the heat.  I've also had them flameout (generics) in some ceiling fan fixtures.  The best CFL's I've ever tried here are the early ones made by Phillips.  They were close to $10 bux each but they actually lasted their advertised 7 plus years.  
Worst CFL"s ever bought were the generic "CE" Central Lighting? brand from Home Cheapo.  They lasted maybe a month or two.....returned.   The only CFL's I will buy now are the name brand only, GE, Phillips etc.   The generic crap from dubious Chinese manufacturers are just too dangerous, IMO.

 

I removed all CFL's after one caught fire in the basement. Fortunately I was there when it happened and disaster was avioded. I did some research and found out it's not a rarity. In fact one mfg's bulbs have been recalled. Nobody, no govt agency or anyone else is going to force me to put my family at risk and the risks are real. Ever read the EPA guidelines for a broken CFL? I am stocking up on conventional bulbs and intend to continue to use them until a reasonable and safe alternative is produced. I have looked at LED's and they are promising but not at $12 per.

Once I run out of Incandescent bulbs, I'll fill my lamp with whale oil.

Ed said:
I hope you have an adequate supply of whale oil Ed. Congress failed to rescind the "CFL" law.

LED lighting has come a long way. Still outrageous $$$$. I made a post during the Winter that a little city South of New Castle Pa................Ellwood City............lights all of their streets with LED street lamps.........they are brighter than the mercury or sodium lights. Of course, they are promoting their own LED manufacturing company located in Ellwood City.

http://www.ietcompany.com/case-study-ellwood-city.html

Fred

Just in....

http://www.edn.com/blog/PowerSource/41188-_Republicans_failed_to_grant_Americans_the_freedom_to_buy_inefficient_light_bulbs_.php

Joe, W3GMS

is there no end to the stupidity from the party of the rich

Frank

According to the article voting went as follows:

For repeal: 223 Republicans + 5 Democrats = 228

Against repeal: 10 Republicans + 183 Democrats = 193

Passage required a 2/3 majority. Even if the 10 republicans that voted against repeal went the other way it still wouldn't have passed.

Party of the rich? Please explain.

 

Let's not invade Frank's fantasy world with facts.

I stand corrected, I was wrong

Whale oil no problem.  Also ordering lightbulbs (real ones) online from overseas suppliers no problem. Higher voltage bulbs working on our 120v (or what ever it is today) mains will last longer anyway. 

I have yet to see a flourescent of any kind that would turn on if I used it in my outside lights here in January or February when the temps hit anything below 40 degrees. 

I've been using CFL's in our outside lampost for over 15 years.  They turn on just fine in the dead of Winter.  Ok, maybe a little slower in the cold wx, but they turn on.   8)

Not quite, look at who and when it was originally passed.

Then look at who controlled the majority in Congress when it was passed.

I have had good experiences with name-brand CFL's too. Stay away from the cheap ones... fire hazard aside, they just don't work!

I got a no-name "contractor pack" (18 lamps?) at Home Depot once, 9 year warranty, and within 2 years two of them would start to flicker until turned off and back on, at which point they would be stable for another few minutes. HD gave me a $5 gift card for the 2 bulbs. I wonder when the rest are going to fail similarly.

More recently I decided to try the WalChinaMart cheapos. Got a three-pack at a very low price. One wouldn't light at all, and the next lit up for 2 seconds and died. Didn't bother trying the third, just got my money back. The GE branded replacements worked perfectly.

Please excuse my rant, I paid less then 1% federal income tax last year which is pretty stupid.

Those Home-Depot Contractor packs is what I use.

I have had a couple fail, but some have been going for just over 5 years.
Granted, those are the least used ones in the house ( bedroom ceiling )
I use those in the outside lamp as well.
"Instant gratification" in the winter?  NO, but only takes 30 or 40 seconds to light up all the way.


W3SLK, I wonder why you are ordering bulbs from overseas?
Regular incandescent bulbs are still on store shelves around here. ( even the 130v )
Maybe that's cause we're out in the woods..  when they say OLD STOCK... they MEAN it!  :-)

Wanna try something interesting. Wire two 100 watt bulbs in series and connect it to 120 VAC. Pretty good light for 25 watts. The bulbs need to be matched or one will how the voltage.

I had to pay income tax on my Social Security income last year, because my wife hasn't retired yet and still works. I would have still owed it even if we had filed separately. Talk about a "marriage penalty".  >:(

That is very interesting and they could last 'forever'. One would think that putting a diode in series with a filament lamp would produce a similar lifespan but it has never worked out like that for me, not sure why. Maybe the waveform rattles it to death.

I put a pair of 100 watt bulbs in series under the water meter at the beach house during the winter. Then I cover it with foam insulation panels so it doesn't freeze. They run from Thanksgiving to April 24/7. Same bulbs since 2003.

Yea but when I'm headed down the outside stairs in -10 degree wheather with my arms full of something, I need that light to come on, not after it warms up, but before my foot hits that top slipery step.  Same thing with the basement steps.  I guess I am just spoilt by having grown up with IOL - Instant On Lighting...  I'm sure I'll get used to it, just like I'll get used to not getting health care (Thanks Guys!!). 

What's truely ironic is that high efficiency filament type bulbs have been developed that could rival CFLS by using various thin film coatings on the filament to increase output.  These would have only been slightly more expensive than normal, less toxic to the environment, and former manufactureres could have easily transistions since it was simply a filament material change to them.   

Now that the market for filament bulbs will be drying up, and so has any research into a viable low cost high efficiency replacment type.  This also means any potential benifits or offshoots of said research is also lost.

This sort of thing happens when well meaning but ignorant people want to force others to 'do whats right', when the fact is they have no real clue. 

Politics - From the Greek Poly- meaning many and from -Tics, meaning blood sucking mindless parisites.

Sounds like another case of the lawmakers run amok. Reminds me of the 75% tax on tobacco here in New York.  Every time I order a tin of pipe tobacco I have to pay a 75% tax just because I live in NY. All other states are exempt. I won;t be surprised  if they end up allowing incandescent bulbs to be sole but eventually impose a high tax on then  ;)

In this case it should be my business what type of lighting I use in my home, not  some lawmaker telling me how to light up my home.  And they argue that they are doing this to "protect the environment". As if they really care.

 Some state lawmakers are considering a law allowing for in state mfg of real light bulbs. Since the ban only affects intersate commerce it would still be legal to make bulbs for use within that state.  Of course , a FEW may manage to cross state lines in the cars of hardened criminals. No doubt the same administration that allows US guns to flow into Mexico will find the means to bust the bulb runners . ;)

Maybe enterprising individuals and companies will spring up to market 'heat balls' as done in Germany ...

http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2011/01/04/heat-balls/ (http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2011/01/04/heat-balls/)

   

Wouldn't work. Decades ago, the Supreme Court in a convoluted ruling interpreted the "Interstate Commerce Clause" in the Constitution to cover practically every imaginable activity even if it doesn't touch a state line, since it would still have an "effect" on interstate commerce.  A couple of examples; back in the 1930s someone challenged the FCCs jurisdiction to regulate VHF radio transmissions in the middle of Texas, claiming that since the signal could not reach a state boundary, it was not interstate  commerce and therefore not under the jurisdiction of the federal government. It went to court and the court ruled for the FCC.  In another case, someone challenged federal laws prohibiting cannabis production for private use, arguing that since the person was growing it for his own personal use and not trying to sell it or otherwise transfer it across state lines, it did not fall under federal jurisdiction. The courts ruled that it still fell under interstate commerce, since the grower would not be patronising the interstate drug trade (and associated police activity), therefore "affecting" interstate commerce.  In a similar ruling a farmer challenged some federal regulation pertaining to agricultural grain production, since he was raising the grain on his own farm to feed his own cattle without putting it on the market, but the  courts ruled that it involved interstate commerce since he was absenting himself from the interstate trade of agricultural products, and that if his cattle were sold on the open market the grain would still be an indirect form of interstate commerce .  By the same token, in-state light bulb production and sales would have an "effect" on the nation-wide light bulb industry, and therefore would be considered interstate commerce.

So now the next question....................

What happens to all of the fixtures requiring specialty bulbs?? Chandoliers, decorative lighting, pilot/indicator lamps for electronic equipment, etc. And anything running on DC. This could get to be an interesting scenario with the total production of incandescent bulbs being outlawed. As of today's technology, you cant use use CFLs as we know them there.

QTF is the next step  ???  ???

I can see it now, #47 pilot lamp bulbs will end up costing as much as big transmitting tubes.

Frank,
When I looked into specialty bulbs, they will continue to be made for some time into the future.  The ban initially stops the sale of the standard 60W bulb.  As time goes on the ban goes down in wattage to the smaller standard base bulbs.   

I never saw a ban date for speciality bulbs. 

Joe, W3GMS

Joe,
      But if the demand for the larger incandescent bulbs dissapears, I'm sure that is the "bread and butter" for most (if not all of) the bulb manufacturers. If they close their doors for that reason, there will be noone to produce the specialty bulbs. Henceforth the trickle down effect. The gubmit won't have to ban them if there was no source for them anyway. Either way, it will be interesting to see how it all plays out. We will probably get screwed again.

Incandescent bulbs ARE NOT being outlawed. The new regulation will set minimum efficiency standards for some lamps. It's true that many currently manufactured incandescent lamps fail to meet the minimum efficiency, but the regulation only applies to bulbs 40 watts or greater, and there are exceptions you can drive a freight train through (rough service, 3-way, colored, etc.). Also, many of the halogen incandescent already meet the efficiency standard.

Don't let the doomsayers on the AM radio dial cause you any unnecessary grief.

73,
Darrell, WA5VGO

  Exactly ! And the few that may remain will have to raise prices to make up for the "economy of scale" losses.

Then again, why write the  laws in question  at all? Energy costs will drive the market and the people themselves are fully capable of determing cost effectiveness .

  Time to clip Aunty Sam's wings .

I have hoarded close to a lifetime supply of those wonderfully inefficient "long life" bulbs with ruggedly supported heavy duty filament. But I don't run them just anywhere for normal lighting purposes, since they run extremely hot and in some applications could be a fire hazard. I put them in hard-to-reach places where the heat isn't a problem, and in work lamps where to-day's flimsy "consumer grade" incandescents won't take  the punishment. The HD bulbs also make good current limiting resistors for testing things like transformers off the 120v line. Also make good compact heat generators when needed.

Isn't some company supposed to be working on higher efficiency incandescents they claim will run around 30% but still be much less expensive than CFLs and LEDs?

If they stop making speciality incandescents, wonder if that will include radio pilot lamps.

One place where the CFL did work for me was in my range hood.  I could NOT keep an incandescent bulb in that place.  Got a low wattage (small) CFL and it's been a couple of years of good service + it's brighter than the 15 watt unit I had in there before

Al

Us too, the 13w CFL has been in there for years. I think they last there because of the intermittant use. Everywhere else they crap out constantly.

You surely know we cannot get along in life without government help. Without Aunty Sam, we mindless citizens would be lost. I sleep better at night being told which lightbulb I should buy.

No government intervention is needed.  If the CFLs and LEDs really save money and last longer, people will eventually change over on their own accord.

Like the AM vs slopbucket wars of the 1960s.  If the League, all the ham magazines, radio clubs and self righteous individuals hadn't tried to force everyone to change over to SSB whether they wanted to or not, the majority of hams probably would have sooner or later quietly added SSB capability to their stations while maybe still using AM as well.  To-day's mode usage would most likely be about the same as it is (majority SSB but still some AM), but there would not be all the lingering animosity between the modes nor the memories of the "war", and deliberate interference might not be so prevalent.

I resented that high-pressure salesmanship campaign. That is what kept me from ever using slopbucket or even acquiring SSB capability to this day.

I think they work great for work lamps, the kind you use for working on cars etc. No heat is the best part. So far, i haven't dropped one forcing me to call the state hazmat team.

Funny thing is I just made a post on this subject and it does not exist? Must have hit the mystery button again??

Nanny Nation is telling us how to live again.  I am sick of them telling us what is best "for our own good".

Here is a synopsis of the legislation and what will be affected.

http://donklipstein.com/incban.html (http://donklipstein.com/incban.html)