Tower Climbing Safety

[k4kyv]

I decided to start a new thread on this topic, rather than to continue off-topic with the 160m slopbucket QuaRMtest discussion.

A waist band and a simple strap going around your ass ain't gonna cut it.  Any ham over 50 (or any age for that matter) who still climbs is crazy not to use a full-body harness like fireman and mtn climbers use - AND be clipped onto a fall-arrest device sliding on the cable running alongside the tower.  Cheap insurance.   The alternative is either hitting the ground or having your guts ripped open when the waist band gives ya a 10G yank.

When I put up my tower in 1980-81, I used an old leather Signal Corps climbing belt, with a second lanyard, so I could stay attached to the tower at all times while ascending or descending past guy anchor points.  A couple of years ago I threw the old thing away because the leather was visibly deteriorating, and I felt it was unsafe even though it was reinforced with what looked like nylon webbing.  I saved the back-up lanyard, made of nylon rope, which is probably similar to what the ONV belt uses, which I still use along with a hamfest belt, but only for climbing ladders when doing house painting or other maintenance.  For ladder work, the belt serves more to help maintain balance and free up arms and hands for the task, than for fall protection.

I haven't climbed my tower for years, but I need to eventually do some inspection and maintenance.  Tom, a couple of years ago you recommended a full body harness; I recall it cost about $100 at the time.  The company offered three grades: a cheapie, a medium grade, and a very expensive top-of-the-line model.  The one you recommended was the mid-grade model.  I checked it out on the website, and it looked exactly like what would fit the bill.  I never ordered one, because I wasn't planning to work on the tower the next day, and tend to procrastinate.  I know I saved a link to the website, but now can't find it. Do you remember which product that was, and the company that sold it?

As for the fall arrest cable, I have seen two different products discussed.  One is a permanent fixture attached to the tower, designed for towers that are frequently climbed on a regular basis. The other is something that attaches to the back of the harness, and has a hook on the other end that you snap onto a rung of the tower above your head or as high up as you can, that remains in use while you do the work, but you unhook it when you  finish.  Which one do you use?

I could see a problem with the permanent cable if the tower is climbed only occasionally, for example, once every few years (my case).  The hardware could rust or freeze up unbeknownst to the operator, and perhaps pose a greater hazard than no fall arrest cable at all.  Also, a permanent cable could be in the way. The hook-on arrangement would provide safety without the risk of having your guts  ripped out in the event of a fall as would be the case of  depending solely on the lanyard.

According to an article I recall reading, on-line or in a broadcast rag maybe, the full-body harness poses an additional risk of its own. If the climber loses footing and falls, and remains dangling by the harness, held up by a fall arrest cable, it may impede circulation to the lower extremities and wreak havoc with the whole body's circulation, and cause the climber to lose consciousness in a matter of about 10 minutes.  There is a medical term for this, which I don't recall. This is the same phenomenon that sometimes occurs when a soldier stands at attention for a prolonged period and passes out.  According to the article, if the climber is not rescued, death is likely to occur within an hour.

Even with the full body harness and fall arrest line, it would seem advisable to have an assistant on the ground, or if one absolutely must work alone, to be sure to carry a fully charged and functioning mobile phone up the tower to use in case of emergency.

[WV Hoopie]

 "it may impede circulation to the lower extremities and wreak havoc with the whole body's circulation"

This is an issue some companies have noticed years ago. Before I retired in 2004 we had to wear a full body harness if working six feet above ground level, I think that was the distance; plus be tied off to something that would stop our downward fall. A double lanyard was required so we could always be tied off and be able to move through pipe racks and cable trays. A second person was required to standby with a walkie talkie in the event of a fall, they could summon help.

Most of the plants I worked in had a JLG manlift that could be used for rescue efforts. We all knew there were just a few minutes of time before the fallen worker would pass out.

Craig,

[K1JJ]

Don,

Here's the link to an AMFone thread on the fall-arrest device:

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=7337.0


I have a separate cable permanently attached to each tower and use the same fall-arrest device for them all. It is attached to my center chest loop and hangs at around crouch level when climbing.  It has maybe 8" of attachment slop.  


I also use a gorilla hook that attaches to my center belt loop. This is great for quick attachment and rests. I also use a lanyard when moving around the tower without the fall-arrest.  I am always attached to the tower in some way.

Using a pair of lanyards to climb is VERY tiring in comparison to the simple fall arrest.

Yes, hanging in a full body harness can cut off circulation in the main leg arteries and cause a heart attack or clot. This is a real danger.  Though, I think the danger of using a simple waist belt is just as real if it snaps your spine during a fall.    I also use a controlled fall belt that slips apart when it reaches a certain pull.


BTW, make sure the arrest cable is positioned on the tower exactly in front of your climbing path or the fall-arrest will bind up and stop all the time.  The cable will not be in the way if it is positioned about 3" from the tower. Use a strong bracket at the top and bottom of the tower with a turnbuckle to keep stretch at bay.

Here's the thread on the full body harness:
http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=7949.0



Seems we've talked about this a lot in the past.

And more info:
http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=7011.0

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=7011.0

T

[k4kyv]

Thanks.  That's the link I was  looking for.

Another thing I remember that made me hesitate on the harness was the size.  The method they give for measuring one's size puts me right smack in the middle of the threshold between two sizes.  The additional bulk of a winter jacket would push me well into the larger category, but in summer, wearing a T-shirt, would put me comfortably into the smaller size.  I'm not sure how much leeway those measurements allow.  I would say better to be a bit too large than a bit too small, but I would  hope there would still  be enough leeway to allow a satisfactory fit for both winter and summer clothes.

I have never used the fall arrest, so I don't know how comfortable I would be depending on it without a secure lanyard as well.  When I put up mine, I used the main lanyard that  came with the belt for most of the climbing, using the back-up only while the main was disconnected. I didn't try moving up or down the tower with both lanyards attached simultaneously, except just before and after crossing a guy point.

I think feeling secure on a tower is almost as important as physically being secure.  If you don't feel comfortable climbing, even the most fool-proof safety measures won't allow you to work at ease, and not being comfortably at ease while up on a tower is just inviting a fatal error. That's why I used temporary guys every 10' when I was erecting the tower, even though when I stood on solid ground and looked at the damned thing I could thoroughly convince myself that it was perfectly safe to work 2 or 3 tower sections above the highest set of guys, but up on the tower more than one section above the guying point, I felt extremely nervous whenever I would lean back in the climbing belt and could feel the whole tower sway when I shifted weight. The temporary guys were nothing more than #10 copperweld antenna wire, but they held the tower immobile with my movements and made the difference between feeling relaxed on the tower and feeling too tensed up for the task.

Wonder how many of us old buzzards soon to be pushing 70, still do our own tower work.

[K1JJ]

OK, Don -

I use the fail arrest whenever I can. When climbing up or down the tower, I use it only - no need for lanyards, etc.   When working, I use the gorilla hook and a lanyard, and the fall arrest if I am in a position to use it. I like redundancy too, in this case, three attachments.

To get confidence in the fall arrest, just hop down one rung and you will see it lock up. In fact, sometimes it will lock up a few times on the way down if you are not centered well. Play around with it and see.

However, I still climb like I am free climbing in my mind. There's no way I wish to take the shock of even a one foot fall and get jerked by the harness.

Yes, get the larger sized harness to allow for a jacket. It is adjustable with easy to use belts with pins, like you use on your pants, so you will have no problems in the summer wearing a T-shirt.  It's takes some practice to put it on without confusion. Expect to have some trouble at first.  The key is to lift it up over your head and snake your head inside the correct belts. It will then fall right on, ready to sock in the belts.

I plan to climb as long as I am able. I think fear is what stops many of the OB's after a while more than ability. I actually feel much better climbing a tower with good safety gear than climbing a ladder, roof or tree. The only injury I've had in the last 25 years was falling off a ladder that spun around a tree last summer.  That tells ya something...

Hope you get the harness and install the fall arrest system. You will really enjoy using them.

T

[K1DEU]

    To attach a fall arrest cable at the top and bottom of tower consider using Guy brackets from Norm's Fab

   http://www.normsfab.com/  .    Even a light weight climber can jerk quite a load when arresting !

[W2VW]

John brings up a good point. The attachment point for the safety must be very sturdy. At work they have tie points outside the building for workers. Those must be rated for 4000 lb pull.

[K1JJ]

I use 4" X 4" steel 3/16" steel angle for the top and bottom brackets. Total overkill, but no more expensive.  Also use 3/8" stainless steel U-bolts to hold them to the tower.  The top and bottom hooks for cable termination are 1/2" eye bolts.  The angle steel can be found at any scrapyard for < 20 cents/pound. You could lift a car with this lashup easily.

BTW, I've found the cable does NOT have to be anchored to the tower every 30' like they show. I have a 190' run and the wind sway is minimal. No problem at all and simpler to install - cheaper too. Continuous climb.

T

[Mike/W8BAC]

Like Craig I still work in many places that would be deadly without a full body harness and 100% tie off. The weight figure for a tie off point when using a harness  and shock absorbing lanyard is 5000 pounds. The weight figure is based on an average adult and the maximum force placed on the hook during a fall. In my opinion a lanyard hook connected to a Rohn 25G or 45G wire rung wouldn't support that much shock weight. It would be best to tie off on a vertical tube above a weld.

Something new! Many harness companies are including a step loop belt with new harness designs. The step loop belt is attached to the waist of the harness and folded into a pouch. If you fall and have nothing to grab or stand on the user pulls out the webbing from the pouch and steps into a loop every few minutes to relieve the cut off circulation.  This won't help if you are unconscious. It's best to never climb alone. Having a ground person is the safest way. 

Many harnesses have metal loops for attaching the lanyard. One in the middle of the back between the shoulder blades which is the only one to use for climbing. Some harnesses have metal loops at the hips. Those are for positioning, like a lineman standing in one position with feet planted and his belt around the pole or like Don mentioned, positioning on a ladder. The metal waist loops should never be used for climbing or lanyard tie off. If you climb in a full body harness using the lineman belt method you might as well find an old climbing belt. The harness isn't going to increase your chances of survival. If you use a side loop for your shock absorbing lanyard, any fall will most likely cause injury. If you use a positioning belt, pass it around and through the tower so a slip will result in a short fall and not to the next set of guy wires or the tower base.

I really like the spider cable climbing method. They feel very safe. One reason for the 30' support increments are for rest points. You can lean back and relax at an anchor point. Be safe!

Mike

[K1JJ]

Good info, Mike, thanks.

I agree with all based on experience.  The waist rings certainly are for static positioning.


One thing that confuses me is the reason to use the back ring for lanyards??  I realize that is the "correct way", but I've experimented with short practice falls and find a danger. When the lanyard stops a fall with the back ring, it tends to slam your face into the tower. In contrast, when using the front chest ring, the face tends to stay a safe distance away. Do you know what I mean?

The cable tie off every 30' on the tower - I use the gorilla hook attached to my waist band for rests. The fall arrest stays on all the time too.  I usually lock the fall arrest for rests too.

Interesting on the webbing option. Good feature to have.


There are still guys who like to free climb. I know a healthy guy who was climbing in the summer. He said he got light headed and was about to pass out. He clipped on his belt and woke up a few minutes later hanging from the tower.  That was enuff to cornvince me to get a fall arrest system...

T

[k4kyv]

Here's the thread on the full body harness:
http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=7949.0

Yes, we did talk about it in the past, but I didn't act on it right away and the months slipped by.

Don,

Here's the basic config you want. Expect to spend about $170 for a full body, full featured harness. Don't get the cheaper $90 one, and you don't need the $350 one that has the extra leg straps. The one pictured below will support you well.  Plus another $100+ for accessories described below.

I clicked on the link, but it looks like GlenMartin no longer sells climbing equipment.  The link is dead, so I tried the GlenMartin home page, and all I can find now is commercial and amateur radio towers and accessories.

http://www.glenmartin.com/catalogs.htm

Do you know the brand name and/or model number of the harness you use or recommended?  I could do a search for another vendor.  Guess I shouldn't have put off buying one for so long.  No doubt it will be substantially more expensive now than one would have been then.

My old leather climbing belt was more than just a simple belt round the waist.  It had substantial support that covered the top half of the arse-cheeks and small of the back, which made it comfortable to lean back for extended periods while working.  A simple nylon belt, like the one I use on the ladder, becomes very uncomfortable after a short period of time. I would think the full body harness would have a tremendous advantage of comfort over a simple belt, since your body weight is supported in multiple spots, and not just concentrated at the waist.  While climbing, unless you have a permanently installed arrest cable, the harness wouldn't seem to offer much more safety than a lanyard, gorilla hook and belt.

I think it would be hard to slip down the tower, belt and all, with the belt/lanyard combination; the lanyard would tend to cock at an angle and hang and bind on the tower rungs. If it didn't stop the fall altogether, it would slow it down, but you might end up helplessly hanging sideways and that could cause a severe back injury.  Unless the belt is fit snugly I would be more worried about falling out of the belt, feet first, arms and all, hitting the ground with the belt still hanging on the tower.  I think a ham got killed that way a couple of years ago when he fell from 60 ft.

I recall GlenMartin sold gorilla hooks with a spring or else it was made of some kind of elastic material, designed to relieve the yank that would result from a sudden fall.  They recommended moving the hook up a rung or two at a time as you climbed, so the fall wouldn't be more than a couple of feet, with the shock cushioned by the elasticity of the hook.

One thing they make a BIG issue of is to never re-use safety equipment, but to always replace the entire harness, gorilla hook and lanyard combination in the event it ever actually arrests a fall; safety equipment is designed to save your life one time and one time only.

[K1JJ]

http://www.gemtor.com/harnesses.htm

Don,

My harness says, "Gemtor" as the brand. There is no model number on it, but this link should give you many choices.

Mine looks something like Model 2015 at the bottom of the link page - however, mine seems built a little heavier than the pic, dunno. It weighs about 20 pounds with accessories..

T

[WD8BIL]

Anymore I wear a full body harness when hunting from any treestand. They've come out with some real nice ones in the last 5 years.

As the man says.... Don't let your next hunt be your last!

Vest Harness

[Mike/W8BAC]

Hi Tom and all,

Tom, most of the harnesses we use for construction are a bit different than the one you have pictured in that I have never seen one with a D ring at the center chest area. I suspect it is purpose built for tower climbing. In that case and if the manufacturer recommends tie off at the chest, it dose seem like a great idea. For my work it would be in the way constantly and a hazard when working near rotating equipment. For those who have never used a harness, take this information to heart. When fitting the harness, your comfort is hopefully built in by the manufacturer. "The Two Finger Rule." Tighten the leg and shoulder straps while standing straight. When finished you should have no more than two fingers of space left. A loose fitting harness can injure or kill you. Think of that strap at chest level with a lanyard attached to the tower during a fall. If the harness is loose fitting at the legs that strap at the chest is now at your neck.

Some new harnesses out lately are really cool. Some have wide webbing at the waist that has extra padding like the top of the line lineman's belts. Some have seat belt like clips instead of traditional belt like adjusters. Set them once and next use just clip it on. Other neat features are built in boatswain seats made of padded webbing.

The elastic lanyards might be misleading by appearance Don. Typically the elastic consist of a web tube with elastic threads sewn into the length so as to retract the tube and make the static length of the lanyard about half it's normal length. Inside that web tube is a Kevlar strand lanyard which is the actual safety life line. The elastic plays no part in your fall. It is just a feature to keep the lanyard from dragging on the ground. You should also find a shock absorber on that lanyard, a sewn package about 8 or 9 inches long containing a folded nylon lanyard. As you fall the stitches let go and that folded strap extends to soften the jolt.

The rule is, If it is used in a fall it is retired. Some items like self braking fall arrest systems and some lanyards have tattle tails built in. They will still work up to specification but a red tattle tail will show usually at the hook swivel. Replace anything that has been used in a fall. Inspect your system for cuts, rot, burns and any other damage before each use and keep your harness is a safe place. No, they don't double as tow straps :0)

[k4kyv]

From my own climbing experience, I can see the need for a lanyard, even with a secure fall arrest.  You need something to keep your body more or less vertical and limit your upper body's distance from the tower.  Your feet bear most of your weight under normal circumstances.  The lanyard keeps you from tumbling backwards to a horizontal position, something a fall arrest cable is not guaranteed to do, since it may pull out away from the tower if it is not under a lot of tension, AND attached to the tower every 30 ft. or so. The gorilla hook would be of limited use if the cable extends more than a foot or so above your head, since it wouldn't keep you from falling backwards if it were too  long.

The greatest danger is losing your grip, which would throw you off the tower backwards in a free climb.  Next is losing your footing.  That shouldn't happen unless you develop a cramp or pass out, unless you were very careless.  Climbing a normal size tower with horizontal rungs shouldn't be all that different from climbing a ladder. Your chances of survival even from falling off a 25 ft. extension ladder whilst doing a routine household task like cleaning out the gutters or painting under the overhang would be marginal at best, and your "survival" may well be as a permanent wheel chair resident.

I say that safety should be a three pronged affair. A belt or harness with  lanyard to limit your distance away from the tower while climbing and to maintain a comfortable position while working, a good pair of work boots with metal shanks in the soles for maintaining your footing, and some kind of fall arrest system for the unlikely event you do lose your footing or pass out.

I don't feel as brave or foolhardy as those Russian kids in the video.

[K1JJ]

Don,

The gorilla hook is a very short snap-on, about 5" in diameter with a safety finger - directly attached to your belt waist loop center.  It will allow you to fall maybe 6", if you let go.  I use it for resting and even for working once positioned. It is very fast to use at your stomach area - 2 seconds to snap on rather than the need to reach up for the sloppy lanyard.

The gorilla hook provides lateral stability too. You can barely move to each side of the tower as the limit.  

Order one with the shortest length connections. I use a beaner to attach it to the belt hook.

T

[Mike/W8BAC]

I want you to be safe Don. It might be that I misunderstand your post but let me just say this. If you want a positioning belt to keep your waist within a certain distance from the tower than buy a belt and clip it to the D rings at your hips. It's a great idea. Those positioning belts are adjustable so you can lean back to a distance you choose and be comfortable. The belt dose not have a shock absorber and shouldn't be used as your primary safety device. Plan any potential fall as unassisted. Your fall protection should be laid out to arrest your fall and not hurt you with no help from you.

Use a shock absorbing lanyard (in addition to your positioning belt) hooked to center mass (front or back) as a fall restraint only. Don't use it as a belt or rest device and hook it as high as possible to keep your free fall to a minimum.

Your climb would be something like this. Step onto the tower and put your positioning belt around the tower. Clip on the lanyard as high as you can reach. Climb three steps or so, lean back and move the lanyard up. At the top or at the work area place the lanyard hook as high as possible and your in business. If your at the top you can decide weather you want the waist belt through the tower or not but without a lanyard extended above you any fall will be unassisted until the lanyard is straight.

Mike

[K9PNP]

I think feeling secure on a tower is almost as important as physically being secure.  If you don't feel comfortable climbing, even the most fool-proof safety measures won't allow you to work at ease, and not being comfortably at ease while up on a tower is just inviting a fatal error.

Wonder how many of us old buzzards soon to be pushing 70, still do our own tower work.

Don:  You are absolutely right about 'feeling secure' vs 'physically being secure'.  There are times I just get off my tower [the only one I climb now] because it 'doesn't feel right'.  Like you inferred:  might have something to do with age.  But I think I'm just a couple or 3 years younger than you.

[k4kyv]

I remember feeling absolutely terrified when I first started working on my tower and tried to erect a second 10' section above the highest guying point. Whenever I shifted position, let alone tried to manhandle a tower section with the aid of the gin pole, I could feel the whole tower sway with me.  No amount of rational thought about how the tower was engineered and how non-existent the physical justification for my fear was, could convince me to  relax and keep on working, and then put up even one more section before attaching the next set of guys.

The scrap 10 ga. copperweld antenna wire I used for temporary guys stabilised the tower and stopped the  sway.  It then felt perfectly solid, and I was able to work comfortably at ease, even though in a real structural failure, I knew those flimsy guys wouldn't have provided much protection. The height didn't bother me (the view was great), but the slightest uncertainty about the structural integrity of what I was standing on, did.

Once, back in the mid-60's when I was in Paris, I decided to visit the Eiffel Tower.  It was a rainy, cloudy, gloomy day, typical of Paris much of the year, with some substantial gusts of wind. I went to the upper levels, and could feel the tower sway in the wind.  I wasn't terrified by any means, but I can recall still feeling slightly ill at ease as the entire structure swayed.

I did go all the way to the very top, beyond where most tourists manage to venture, to where they had Mr. Eiffel's office preserved for display, complete with original engineering books and instruments laid out on his desk.  I noticed 10' or so of chicken wire strung above the original railing. They told me that was to discourage suicides.  People had developed a bad habit of climbing over the rail and taking a plunge.

[Mike/W8BAC]

Once, back in the mid-60's when I was in Paris, I decided to visit the Eiffel Tower.  It was a rainy, cloudy, gloomy day, typical of Paris much of the year, with some substantial gusts of wind. I went to the upper levels, and could feel the tower sway in the wind.  I wasn't terrified by any means, but I can recall still feeling slightly ill at ease as the entire structure swayed.

I went to the (now) top of the Eiffer Tower in 2009 on a winter day. For me it was a thrill but nothing like the Gateway To The West in St Louis. The elevator cells you ride are very small and the servo motors that keep you sitting upright are abrupt. You rise 20 to 50 feet and tilt uncomfortably and than suddenly, errrumph, back to sitting upright.

At the top you walk through a small, inverted triangle skin. I'm 5'9" and I couldn't stand upright. To look out through the small slit windows you lean out and put your hands on the SKIN of the arch and look down. The day I visited the wind was blowing a bit and the sway was more than my brain could handle.

The ride back down was a test of my new found claustrophobia and vertigo symptoms.

[Mike/W8BAC]

Here it is Don.

http://www.amazon.com/Guardian-Protection-181150-Premium-Pass-Thru/dp/accessories/B004BR264G
 
I have worn this and it is very comfortable and easy to get in to and out of. It is padded in all of the right places and has everything except the front center mass D ring. It has the seat belt type clips which is a big plus. The rear ring will do the same job and in my opinion for your use, this is a safe choice. Do a search before you buy. The price is variable.

[Mike/W8BAC]

I bet I sound like "Mike Nye, The Safety Guy"

[k4kyv]

Here it is Don.

http://www.amazon.com/Guardian-Protection-181150-Premium-Pass-Thru/dp/accessories/B004BR264G
 
I have worn this and it is very comfortable and easy to get in to and out of. It is padded in all of the right places and has everything except the front center mass D ring. It has the seat belt type clips which is a big plus. The rear ring will do the same job and in my opinion for your use, this is a safe choice. Do a search before you buy. The price is variable.

Does it come with lanyards, or do you buy those separately?  If so, what do you use?

I would think the rear ring would be more out of the way, and if you did end up dangling by the gorilla hook, it would leave you more upright.

My old belt had D-rings on each side, where I attached the two lanyards.  The leather was reinforced with nylon webbing between the rings.  But the thing was cumbersome and heavy, and even with the nylon webbing reinforcement, I didn't trust the old leather.  Not sure if mine dated all way back to WW2, but I took the highly unusual action for me, and tossed it out.

[k4kyv]

I went to the (now) top of the Eiffer Tower in 2009 on a winter day. For me it was a thrill but nothing like the Gateway To The West in St Louis.

I have been up both. The Gateway arch didn't impress me all that much.  The Sears Tower in Chicago and the Hancock and Prudential buildings in Boston gave me just as good a view of the surroundings without the claustrophobia.  But only at the top of the Eiffel Tower can you enjoy a $15 (1965 dollars) hot dog, made with genuine crusty French bread, that comes with a glass of red wine.

My most bizarre experience was the time I went with a bunch of crazy friends to the top of the Emipre State Building (or maybe it was the WTC, don't remember for sure which). When we descended, we decided we would be adventurous and take a few flights of stairs down and then catch the elevator.  But once in the stairwell, we discovered that all the doors were locked from the stairwell side, and we had to take the stairs all the way down to about the 12th floor before we found an unlocked door. That was a memorable work-out to say the least.

[Mike/W8BAC]

Looks like the lanyards are sold separately. Here is a nice one.

http://www.amazon.com/Gemtor-VP156-6-Polyester-Absorber-Lanyard/dp/B001VY39BG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1299333631&sr=1-3

The positioning belt wasn't as easy to find but this one will do nicely.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120685888711&hlp=false&rvr_id=215394994251&crlp=1_263602_304652&UA=%3F*F%3F&GUID=264d8f5112b0a0a9f4704b90ffd0f490&itemid=120685888711&ff4=263602_304652