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New Beverage up!




 
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Author Topic: New Beverage up!  (Read 14090 times)
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WU2D
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CW is just a narrower version of AM


« on: November 01, 2009, 05:37:18 PM »

Well I had to do it. I could not survive without one. I'm talking about a Beverage.

I took everything down last spring. As you might remember I had a 40M array (two phased 275 ft Bevs spaced at 90 feet) and a fairly long single one which I used on 160 and 75 M. They both needed a little help and I put a tuned preamp inline at the shack, but they worked great.

This year I only put up a single, but it is long and higher than normal at about 12 feet. Two ground rods (one on each end) and a 700 Ohm load. I figure I am out about 700 feet and the end is in a swamp. Also, I paid more attention to the advice that you need to NOT ground the coax at the transformer and a built a conventional transformer, not an autotransformer, so I have isolation. The feed is buried RG-6 with a goo inside - nice stuff. The feedpoint is at the edge of the woods and I am pointed just south of West.

My XFMR design is directly from comments from VK3APN 9/1998

http://www.qsl.net/n1eu/topband/BeverageXfmrs.htm

All I can say is WOW. I do not need a preamp any longer. This thing is singing.

Mike WU2D
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WU2D
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CW is just a narrower version of AM


« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 06:54:46 PM »

OK Listen for yourself.

Recording 1 CW   80M
Recording 2  SSB 160M
Recording 3 AM    80M (and I mean 80M)

Antenna is my inverted L (tuned) against the new Beverage.

Conditions on this Sunday evening are noisy.

Mike WU2D

* CW.mp3 (405.43 KB - downloaded 284 times.)
* AntennaA.mp3 (405.02 KB - downloaded 328 times.)
* WA1HUZ.mp3 (486.25 KB - downloaded 345 times.)
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 07:12:21 PM »

Congratulations. That sounds like a nice receiving antenna! Once you've used one, you're right, it's hard to live without one (or two or three.....)

The isolated primary/secondary transformer with no ground (at least close to the feed end) for the coax is the way to go to avoid common mode noise. That's what I used and I bury the RG6 all the way back to to the shack.
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WU2D
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CW is just a narrower version of AM


« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2009, 07:21:41 PM »

There still is some common mode noise - you can hear it, but this is a great start.
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 07:26:20 PM »

I put some toroids at the point where the cable enters and exits the earth. Some claim grounding the coax about 30-50 feet from the feedpoint in combination with a bunch of toroids helps to choke of the common mode stuff.

A good test is to disconnect the Beverage wire at the feed point and then tune around the BC band. If you do not hear any BC stations, you have the common mode stuff knocked out.
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2009, 07:40:51 PM »

Why not use twisted pair shielded wire with a transformer at each end. Then it won't matter how you ground the shields. 700 ft sounds very cool
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 08:40:07 PM »

Interesting idea. I wonder what the loss is in several hundred feet of twisted pair?


Why not use twisted pair shielded wire with a transformer at each end. Then it won't matter how you ground the shields. 700 ft sounds very cool
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KM1H
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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2009, 09:05:25 AM »

I started with 2 and wound up with 7 ranging from 550 to 1500'. All transformer ends are terminated 700' from the house. After a few near misses with evaporated resistors and fried FT-50 toroids I ground the shields and the cold end of the antenna winding to a pair of 8' ground rods driven in at angles since solid ledge is only 1-2' down. With a T storm 10+ miles away I can still get a good tingle if I touch the antenna.

I started with quad shielded and flooded RG6 on the ground which lasted about 2 months before it got chewed up. I now use 1/2" CATV hardline with a black jacket. Been there 18 years with no problems. Dont need a preamp for signal but I am using a tuneable, bandswitching, low gain FET preselector, for selectivity and eliminating BCB and fairly local contest station IMD on other bands. Im line of sight from multi multi KC1XX, K1EA, and many others. I also use rather large FT-114 toroids to eliminate saturation and their own IMD. The FT-50 size are useless around here.

Ive also used the Beverages thru 10M when storms and snow static made the yagis useless; on 20M and above the preamp gain is turned up.

BTW, Beverages work best over poor ground which may be why mine are so effective. Verticals work great with elevated radials also.

Carl
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2009, 07:01:44 PM »

For years I read about Beverages and hated people who had the landscape to use one.  Now I do and they perform like all the published information.  However; the loop antenna is just as good and doesn't require near the space as a Beverage.

Explore the loop that will fit on your available space.  Here is an example by someone else.

http://members.verizon.net/~vze24qhw/loop.html

I now have a shortened Beverage after over 40 years of wishing and it works fine.  The problem with hearing people is they can't always hear you, so it is still a one-way conversation.

Now if you want to spend some money or are deft at home brewing, look into the K9AY type design.  It works very well.
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2009, 09:06:44 AM »

Look at the RDF and/or DMF of a loop and then compare to a Beverage.
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2009, 11:24:14 PM »

Here's two clips comparing my dipole and Beverage.

The first is John - KC2FXE on 75-meter AM last weekend. You hear the background static come and go. When it's gone, you are listening to the Beverage. When it's there, you are listening to the dipole.

The second clip is an Andorran station on 80-meter SSB. Once again, you'll hear a nice improvement when the Beverage is selected compared to the dipole.


* kc2fxe1nov090150z3880.mp3 (596.95 KB - downloaded 316 times.)
* f8fgu2nov090420z3797.mp3 (518.21 KB - downloaded 307 times.)
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Todd, KA1KAQ
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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2009, 11:31:26 PM »

That really is amazing, Steve. John sounds as good if not better than he did when I was next door in VT! Just incredible to hear the noise disappear, nothing but audio.

And you found Andorra again? Not sure which is more amazing, the clearness of their signal or hearing them on the air again. The night you got them at 'JJs place was the first time I'd heard them in over 20 years.
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2009, 11:39:02 PM »

Yes! Just audio and no noise. That's why I posted that clip. Beverages are good for more than just DX.

I need to read up on Andorra. I don't think I've worked it many times. In the DXCC listing, the call prefix is C3, but the guy I worked the other night was an F8. Looking at the map, he was not in Andorra, but Pamiers, France.
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K1JJ
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2009, 09:46:16 AM »

I just got around to hearing the phased bevs vs: the dipole recordings on 75M.  Yes, it is quite a difference in S/N. When the signals get very PW, it can make all the difference.


It's interesting that Steve's  bevs are actually TWO bevs that are side by side and staggered in their starting points. The 300'? lengths create the equivalent of a single 600' pattern. Quite a good trick to use if not able to stretch out a single bev.

In general, a bev will vastly outperform a simple dipole, but a high Yagi tuned for max f-b will be equivalent or sometimes better, depending on cornditions. (Though almost never worse in S/N)   Since they swing back and forth a dual diversity receiving system is is a perfect choice.  Steve is working on his new system as we speak.

T
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Use an "AM Courtesy Filter" to limit transmit audio bandwidth  +-4.5 KHz, +-6.0 KHz or +-8.0 KHz when needed. 

Nothing like a new homebrew rig. Come into the shack, flip on the switches and everything works perfectly.

And, nothing like an old dog.
WA1GFZ
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2009, 11:24:22 AM »

Huz,
teflon dielectric twisted pair shielded should have low loss. W1VD uses cat 5 cable but not sure if it will last underground. I would think #22 is around 70 ohms. I've been messing with transmission line transformers with shielded teflon wire and it works great and a lot cheaper than buying 25 ohm coax.
Day off today and 40 meter loops on the ground for a tune up to get them to reflector. Simulation shows the extra two feet of RG11 flipped it over to director.
Also scopeing out the yard for a short beverage need to check it I have enough feedline.
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WU2D
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CW is just a narrower version of AM


« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2009, 08:43:00 PM »

Steve,

The three element ground plane Yagi that I had up the last few years was virtually identical to the Beverage for gain and close on noise but obviously only on 75M!

Mike WU2D
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2009, 09:22:46 PM »

For sure. Probably more gain, depending on the length and height of the Beverage. The gain on mine is low since the end-fire phasing is for a small offset. But the backside pattern is very tight. It really kills static from the Southwest.

Do you still have your verticals?
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WU2D
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CW is just a narrower version of AM


« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2009, 06:47:58 AM »

Nope - I took everything down last year. I will put something new up.

Mike
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Dave K6XYZ
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« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2009, 01:23:00 AM »

Hey everybody.....glad to be here.

Talking about Beverages....I finally have enough room to put up a Bev but before I start cutting and chopping parts I thought I should ask if anyone has experience with the DX Engineering reversable Bevs designed by W8JI.
All comments bad, good, so-so...whatever.... will be welcome...also any installation funnies that I would like to know.

Best

Dave
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KM1H
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« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2009, 09:56:44 AM »

Buy "Low Band DXing by ON4UN 4th Edition"  It has everything you want to know about receiving antennas. Available at Amazon, ARRL, HRO, etc.

Carl
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K9ACT
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« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2009, 12:11:22 PM »

My Beverage is a total waste of time as far as performance is concerned.

I have yet to hear a signal better on it than with my dipoles on either 80 or 160, in any direction.

I messed around for hours with different termination resistors, looking for one with min SWR change over the lowest range of the MFJ analyzer and all I get are dips and peaks all over the place between 1.2 and about 2 to one.  Maybe this is what is meant by minimum change BUT....

I talked to a guy the other night who got my attention when he said he uses an unterminated Beverage.  When I asked him wha fer, he said it is bidirectional.

Considering that mine is pointed North and doesn't work anyway, I unterminated it and ran the same test.

I got exactly the same nulls and peaks in exactly that same places as when it was terminated.  Therefore, the diddling with resistors is meaningless.

It is 700 feet long and about 6 feet off the ground with good ground at far end for termination.

I don't recall the turns count on the transformer but I made it in accordance with an article on the Web.  The antenna side (secondary) goes to another good ground and the primary is across the coax to the receiver.

What could possibly be wrong with it?

js

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K1JJ
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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2009, 12:41:54 PM »

Hi Jack,

Sounds like a perfect installation at 700' long and 6' high.

Maybe I'm missing somethng, but it's pointed north? and is highly directional. What is north of you besides sparce activity from VE3/4's?   If it is working as expected and terminated, it will be weak to the USA west, east and south where you probably want the hearing advantage.  Being low angle, maybe even the VE3's/4's are too close in to see the low angle advantage. With a ~ 30 degree take-off angle, 400 miles min is when it just starts to play on 75M. (depending on condix)  1,000 to 3,000 miles is even better


That said, is it erected anywhere near other metal structures or antennas?  Bevs are highly susceptible to coupling and operating poorly if so.  I have a few stories to tell of my own bevs that didn't work until I located them far away from the others ants.

I find my NE bev (600' long and terminated) is often at par with the 2 el delta loop at 190' into Europe. Works like a bomb using dual diversity.  The west bev to Calif is just as effective for PW stations.  Other directions are PW, which is what makes its S/N so good.

T
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Use an "AM Courtesy Filter" to limit transmit audio bandwidth  +-4.5 KHz, +-6.0 KHz or +-8.0 KHz when needed. 

Nothing like a new homebrew rig. Come into the shack, flip on the switches and everything works perfectly.

And, nothing like an old dog.
ke7trp
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« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2009, 12:48:34 PM »

I wish I had the room.. I dont..  I do have a 10 meter Vertical on a 60 ft tower. I use it alot for RX on 75.  The SN ratio is incredible. time and time again I can copy stations on the vert over my Dipole with all the noise. 

C
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Dave K6XYZ
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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2009, 02:41:38 PM »

Thanks fer the answers fellahs.....
I have ON4UN's book and have read it several times....BUT....at this time I thought I would try the DX Engineering reversable Bev antenna on 75 mtrs. I am not so much interested in reversing the direction as I am in increasing the s/n.
SO.....again....the question is.....does anyone have experience with the DX Engineering reversable Bev antenna??
Any comments about the DXE antenna would be appreciated.

Tnx

Dave
K6XYZ
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K1JJ
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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2009, 03:09:17 PM »

Dave,

I've heard a few good things about the DX Engr reversible system from some of the DXers.

I think it was designed by Tom, W8JI who knows what he is doing.  If it didn't work well, I'm sure it wud have been known by now and Tom wuda redesigned it.

If that's what you are looking for, I wud buy it with confidence - worst case you cud always return it.  It a simple system and bet it will do what you want ie, switching directions with good matching, pattern and common mode rejection, etc.

Tom, K1JJ
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Use an "AM Courtesy Filter" to limit transmit audio bandwidth  +-4.5 KHz, +-6.0 KHz or +-8.0 KHz when needed. 

Nothing like a new homebrew rig. Come into the shack, flip on the switches and everything works perfectly.

And, nothing like an old dog.
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