The AM Forum

Well I had to do it. I could not survive without one. I'm talking about a Beverage.

I took everything down last spring. As you might remember I had a 40M array (two phased 275 ft Bevs spaced at 90 feet) and a fairly long single one which I used on 160 and 75 M. They both needed a little help and I put a tuned preamp inline at the shack, but they worked great.

This year I only put up a single, but it is long and higher than normal at about 12 feet. Two ground rods (one on each end) and a 700 Ohm load. I figure I am out about 700 feet and the end is in a swamp. Also, I paid more attention to the advice that you need to NOT ground the coax at the transformer and a built a conventional transformer, not an autotransformer, so I have isolation. The feed is buried RG-6 with a goo inside - nice stuff. The feedpoint is at the edge of the woods and I am pointed just south of West.

My XFMR design is directly from comments from VK3APN 9/1998

http://www.qsl.net/n1eu/topband/BeverageXfmrs.htm

All I can say is WOW. I do not need a preamp any longer. This thing is singing.

Mike WU2D

OK Listen for yourself.

Recording 1 CW   80M
Recording 2  SSB 160M
Recording 3 AM    80M (and I mean 80M)

Antenna is my inverted L (tuned) against the new Beverage.

Conditions on this Sunday evening are noisy.

Mike WU2D

Congratulations. That sounds like a nice receiving antenna! Once you've used one, you're right, it's hard to live without one (or two or three.....)

The isolated primary/secondary transformer with no ground (at least close to the feed end) for the coax is the way to go to avoid common mode noise. That's what I used and I bury the RG6 all the way back to to the shack.

There still is some common mode noise - you can hear it, but this is a great start.

I put some toroids at the point where the cable enters and exits the earth. Some claim grounding the coax about 30-50 feet from the feedpoint in combination with a bunch of toroids helps to choke of the common mode stuff.

A good test is to disconnect the Beverage wire at the feed point and then tune around the BC band. If you do not hear any BC stations, you have the common mode stuff knocked out.

Why not use twisted pair shielded wire with a transformer at each end. Then it won't matter how you ground the shields. 700 ft sounds very cool

Interesting idea. I wonder what the loss is in several hundred feet of twisted pair?

I started with 2 and wound up with 7 ranging from 550 to 1500'. All transformer ends are terminated 700' from the house. After a few near misses with evaporated resistors and fried FT-50 toroids I ground the shields and the cold end of the antenna winding to a pair of 8' ground rods driven in at angles since solid ledge is only 1-2' down. With a T storm 10+ miles away I can still get a good tingle if I touch the antenna.

I started with quad shielded and flooded RG6 on the ground which lasted about 2 months before it got chewed up. I now use 1/2" CATV hardline with a black jacket. Been there 18 years with no problems. Dont need a preamp for signal but I am using a tuneable, bandswitching, low gain FET preselector, for selectivity and eliminating BCB and fairly local contest station IMD on other bands. Im line of sight from multi multi KC1XX, K1EA, and many others. I also use rather large FT-114 toroids to eliminate saturation and their own IMD. The FT-50 size are useless around here.

Ive also used the Beverages thru 10M when storms and snow static made the yagis useless; on 20M and above the preamp gain is turned up.

BTW, Beverages work best over poor ground which may be why mine are so effective. Verticals work great with elevated radials also.

Carl
KM1H

For years I read about Beverages and hated people who had the landscape to use one.  Now I do and they perform like all the published information.  However; the loop antenna is just as good and doesn't require near the space as a Beverage.

Explore the loop that will fit on your available space.  Here is an example by someone else.

http://members.verizon.net/~vze24qhw/loop.html

I now have a shortened Beverage after over 40 years of wishing and it works fine.  The problem with hearing people is they can't always hear you, so it is still a one-way conversation.

Now if you want to spend some money or are deft at home brewing, look into the K9AY type design.  It works very well.

Look at the RDF and/or DMF of a loop and then compare to a Beverage.

Here's two clips comparing my dipole and Beverage.

The first is John - KC2FXE on 75-meter AM last weekend. You hear the background static come and go. When it's gone, you are listening to the Beverage. When it's there, you are listening to the dipole.

The second clip is an Andorran station on 80-meter SSB. Once again, you'll hear a nice improvement when the Beverage is selected compared to the dipole.

That really is amazing, Steve. John sounds as good if not better than he did when I was next door in VT! Just incredible to hear the noise disappear, nothing but audio.

And you found Andorra again? Not sure which is more amazing, the clearness of their signal or hearing them on the air again. The night you got them at 'JJs place was the first time I'd heard them in over 20 years.

Yes! Just audio and no noise. That's why I posted that clip. Beverages are good for more than just DX.

I need to read up on Andorra. I don't think I've worked it many times. In the DXCC listing, the call prefix is C3, but the guy I worked the other night was an F8. Looking at the map, he was not in Andorra, but Pamiers, France.

I just got around to hearing the phased bevs vs: the dipole recordings on 75M.  Yes, it is quite a difference in S/N. When the signals get very PW, it can make all the difference.


It's interesting that Steve's  bevs are actually TWO bevs that are side by side and staggered in their starting points. The 300'? lengths create the equivalent of a single 600' pattern. Quite a good trick to use if not able to stretch out a single bev.

In general, a bev will vastly outperform a simple dipole, but a high Yagi tuned for max f-b will be equivalent or sometimes better, depending on cornditions. (Though almost never worse in S/N)   Since they swing back and forth a dual diversity receiving system is is a perfect choice.  Steve is working on his new system as we speak.

T

Huz,
teflon dielectric twisted pair shielded should have low loss. W1VD uses cat 5 cable but not sure if it will last underground. I would think #22 is around 70 ohms. I've been messing with transmission line transformers with shielded teflon wire and it works great and a lot cheaper than buying 25 ohm coax.
Day off today and 40 meter loops on the ground for a tune up to get them to reflector. Simulation shows the extra two feet of RG11 flipped it over to director.
Also scopeing out the yard for a short beverage need to check it I have enough feedline.

Steve,

The three element ground plane Yagi that I had up the last few years was virtually identical to the Beverage for gain and close on noise but obviously only on 75M!

Mike WU2D

For sure. Probably more gain, depending on the length and height of the Beverage. The gain on mine is low since the end-fire phasing is for a small offset. But the backside pattern is very tight. It really kills static from the Southwest.

Do you still have your verticals?

Nope - I took everything down last year. I will put something new up.

Mike

Hey everybody.....glad to be here.

Talking about Beverages....I finally have enough room to put up a Bev but before I start cutting and chopping parts I thought I should ask if anyone has experience with the DX Engineering reversable Bevs designed by W8JI.
All comments bad, good, so-so...whatever.... will be welcome...also any installation funnies that I would like to know.

Best

Dave
K6XYZ

Buy "Low Band DXing by ON4UN 4th Edition"  It has everything you want to know about receiving antennas. Available at Amazon, ARRL, HRO, etc.

Carl
KM1H

My Beverage is a total waste of time as far as performance is concerned.

I have yet to hear a signal better on it than with my dipoles on either 80 or 160, in any direction.

I messed around for hours with different termination resistors, looking for one with min SWR change over the lowest range of the MFJ analyzer and all I get are dips and peaks all over the place between 1.2 and about 2 to one.  Maybe this is what is meant by minimum change BUT....

I talked to a guy the other night who got my attention when he said he uses an unterminated Beverage.  When I asked him wha fer, he said it is bidirectional.

Considering that mine is pointed North and doesn't work anyway, I unterminated it and ran the same test.

I got exactly the same nulls and peaks in exactly that same places as when it was terminated.  Therefore, the diddling with resistors is meaningless.

It is 700 feet long and about 6 feet off the ground with good ground at far end for termination.

I don't recall the turns count on the transformer but I made it in accordance with an article on the Web.  The antenna side (secondary) goes to another good ground and the primary is across the coax to the receiver.

What could possibly be wrong with it?

js

Hi Jack,

Sounds like a perfect installation at 700' long and 6' high.

Maybe I'm missing somethng, but it's pointed north? and is highly directional. What is north of you besides sparce activity from VE3/4's?   If it is working as expected and terminated, it will be weak to the USA west, east and south where you probably want the hearing advantage.  Being low angle, maybe even the VE3's/4's are too close in to see the low angle advantage. With a ~ 30 degree take-off angle, 400 miles min is when it just starts to play on 75M. (depending on condix)  1,000 to 3,000 miles is even better


That said, is it erected anywhere near other metal structures or antennas?  Bevs are highly susceptible to coupling and operating poorly if so.  I have a few stories to tell of my own bevs that didn't work until I located them far away from the others ants.

I find my NE bev (600' long and terminated) is often at par with the 2 el delta loop at 190' into Europe. Works like a bomb using dual diversity.  The west bev to Calif is just as effective for PW stations.  Other directions are PW, which is what makes its S/N so good.

T

I wish I had the room.. I dont..  I do have a 10 meter Vertical on a 60 ft tower. I use it alot for RX on 75.  The SN ratio is incredible. time and time again I can copy stations on the vert over my Dipole with all the noise. 

C

Thanks fer the answers fellahs.....
I have ON4UN's book and have read it several times....BUT....at this time I thought I would try the DX Engineering reversable Bev antenna on 75 mtrs. I am not so much interested in reversing the direction as I am in increasing the s/n.
SO.....again....the question is.....does anyone have experience with the DX Engineering reversable Bev antenna??
Any comments about the DXE antenna would be appreciated.

Tnx

Dave
K6XYZ

Dave,

I've heard a few good things about the DX Engr reversible system from some of the DXers.

I think it was designed by Tom, W8JI who knows what he is doing.  If it didn't work well, I'm sure it wud have been known by now and Tom wuda redesigned it.

If that's what you are looking for, I wud buy it with confidence - worst case you cud always return it.  It a simple system and bet it will do what you want ie, switching directions with good matching, pattern and common mode rejection, etc.

Tom, K1JJ

Thanks Tom.....well, I could always make one myself as there is plenty of info available but there is no real reason to get all involved with another project if something is already available.
I've got too many projects all going at the same time as it is.
If anyone else has comments about the DXE Bev....bring them on.

Dave
K6XYZ

The only thing North of me is the North end of our property and the only possible position for a long Beverage.

The problem is that it is NOT highly directional.  The few stations I have been able to hear due North are included in the conclusion that the dipoles are always better.

  >Being low angle, maybe even the VE3's/4's are too close in to see the low angle advantage. With a ~ 30 degree take-off angle, 400 miles min is when it just starts to play on 75M. (depending on condix)  1,000 to 3,000 miles is even better

I was not aware of the but how bout on 160?

>That said, is it erected anywhere near other metal structures or antennas?

No but it is in second growth forest and the horizontal line is only nominally straight but I have never read anything about the need to be perfectly straight so I took the path of least resistance.

I would be interested in thoughts on steel fence wire which I used.

I recently conducted extensive experiments with my 160 dipole using steel, copper and aluminum.  The conclusion is that the steel is bad news by 10 db and the copper and aluminum are comparable except for the fact that the lighter weight of aluminum allows me to get it 50% higher than the heavier copper.

Considering this, it seems obvious that I should replace the steel wire Bev with aluminum.

Seems like resistivity and permeability would be directly proportional to the length possible making the Bev nearly useless.

BTW, nice hooking up with you the other night.  Big sig into the Midwest.

Jack

A couple of things about Beverages:

They dont work well over good ground as anyone on the seacoast has found. Im on a rock pile and Ive been using them at 3 locations over the past 40 years. They work great for me.

The Beverage is a slow wave antenna and depends on a tilt of the incoming wave. Steel has high RF resistance and will lay that tilt horizontal and you wind up with just a random piece of wire. The other possibility is the transformer is incorrect; use the one from ON4UN's book, any edition.



If you dont have the room try a Slinky Beverage. I had 5 stretched over 150' and it heard everything that others were hearing with 1000' on 160/80.  Even tho it is plated steel the overall length wasnt enough to kill it and it may have actually helped to tilt the wave down enough to be effective.  Suckers rust out in a few years.  A 150' copper wire with loading coils was useless. I wonder how brass Slinkys would work but they are pricey.

Carl
KM1H

I've seen big improvements on 160 signals with stations only a few hundred miles away using a Beverage. It depends on the time of day. Propagation is usually at much higher angles before sunset and for a few hours after but then begins to lower. The Beverage should work better as the night progresses. I've seen similar results on 80 meters.

I posted some audio clips in previously. Take a listen. Hearing is believing.


http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=21706.msg155825#msg155825
http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=21784.msg156714#msg156714


If a Beverage doesn't work for you, consider one of the terminated loop types - EWE, Flag, or K9AY. Here's a previous posting with an audio clip showing how the K9AY can improve received signals on 160 meters.

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=18280.msg128044#msg128044

You have to wonder what is going on with a beverage that is not working. Mine is too high (on purpose for safety to keep it way over the anticipated snow depth), but it still kills my inverted L for signal to noise and it is very directive. Sometimes you hear three signals on the Inverted L and only 1 on the beverage for instance. I do notice that the high beverage (10 -15 feet up) is not as effective as my lower ones in years past have been.

However - I put up an 80M inverted Vee pretty far back away from the house and about 50 feet into the woods, and I can honestly say that the inv v dipole is approaching or possibly beating the beverage in signal to noise performance in the narrow band that it is cut for.  So it is more the idea of getting the antenna away from the house that is the big win. Of course the beverage is broad banded.

Mike WU2D