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Author Topic: 3889 Group causing Malicious Interference - response.  (Read 59993 times)
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KA1ZGC
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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2007, 11:21:56 AM »

I must have been thinking of accurately identifying each transmission in a transcription

That's WAY more work than it's worth.

Nope, we should release MP3 files of these guys and let the truth tell itself.

The truth is the greatest weapon in the world.

--Thom
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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2007, 01:14:54 PM »

To get the ball rolling, here is a transcription from just a short session of listening last night:

Heard on 3892 kHz Friday night, December 07, 2007
9:10 p.m. Eastern time.  Transcribed to the best of my ability, it readily documents one  case of willful interference to an on-going AM QSO on 3885 kHz.:


“Man you broke my S-meter it ain’t even come back up to zero yet….
…I will say hello to Aar, I will say hello to Aaron though.”

“Hello hello I heard you in there earlier, but the band was so long I couldn’t make out what you’s sayin’.”

“What you on Aron?”

“I’m on my 757.”

“Ah, o.k.”

“Why what’s up?  Tell me, tell me.”

“Oh I just, I just curious.  Is that thing got a pretty good AM receiver in it?”

“Yeah, yeah.  Ah it don’t do too bad, I’ve listened to them guys up there talk AM on it, ah seems like all the filters work.  I’ve never tried talkin’ on it.”

(18 seconds, nothing)

“You’re gettin’ louder up here Zipper.”

“Ah the band’s changin’ around.  My noise totally went away an’ all. I hear you are about an S9.” 

“Oh you’re 15 over.”

“Why, what you workin’ on, an AM transmitter or somethin’ Stan?”

“Heh, bite your tongue boy.”

“Well you were askin’ me (laughter).  I’ve got a good AM receiver.”

“Yeah go down in the middle of the AM winda’.”

“Well, I don’t, I don’t actually, to be honest with you, I don’t even know what that window is, ‘cause according to this we’re in, you know according to them we’re in their winda’.  Give me a frequency, I’ll go to it.”

“Ah, 3885.”

“Alrighty I’m gone. KC8C(or T?)YV clear, QSY.”

“Where you goin?”

“I guess 3885 real quick.”

“Where’s he goin’?”

“3885.”

“Oh.  K1RON.”

(I tune my receiver to 3885 kHz LSB.  I hear a carrier and tune for a very low pitch beat note for documentation purposes.)

Now on 3885 kHz:

“Breaker AM transmitter there.”

(Weak AM transmission on, unreadable here.)

“I can just barely hear you.”

AM 2 “Frequency’s in use.”  (AM transmission.)

LSB “The band is broke.”

AM2  “The frequency’s in use, the frequency’s in use.” 

LSB “Hello to ya.”

(Weak AM transmission on.  It appears that the LSB incursion has stopped.  I tune back to 3892 kHz LSB.)

On 3892 kHz LSB:

“…..let me come back in for a landin’.”

“Is this, ah, a station in French Creek West Virginia?”

(laughter)

“somewhere around there I’m a hoverin’ right now."

“Ah roger I’m hearin’ ya.”

“KN8, er no, KC8 ah, needs a big garage, yeah, needs a billy goat, yeah.”

(9:14:35 p.m.)

“Ah yes.”

“Ah, Stan did you make it back here?"

"Yeah did you, did you hear me down there?"

“Yeah by the time I got there I’s sayin’, well I made a hello and they kept yellin’ at me, “frequency’s in use”!”

“What a bunch of weirdos.  That wouldn’t a, that wouldn’t a stopped ‘em up here.”
 
“Yeah that never bothered them up here did it Aaron (or Eric)?”

“Well the, all the intentional AM interference’ll…it’ll ketch up to them.   Anyway, um, enough said about that.” 

“Yeah I wanted to get this 55 model sideband transmitter out again.”

“Oh well it’s workin’.  It sounds pinched.    Sounds like you’re on the 1.5 filter or somethin’, you know.”

(Unintelligible primordial cry).

(Unintelligible remark).

(Laughter.)

“Ah, that’s o.k.” 

“For when it was created, it don’t do bad.  I’ve had enough fun with it tonight, it’s all the electrons have, have went to the appropriate places and appropriate times, so I’ll unhook it and hook up a real radio.  Anyway, you guys carry on, I’ll be back.   KC8NBG.”

“Roger.”

“Hey Bernie?”

“Yeah.  Did they shut T(D?)SW down?”

(End of transcribing.)
- - - - - - - -
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73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2007, 01:33:04 PM »

If you didn't make a recording of that, you have a damn good memory.  I wasn't in the QSO, but was monitoring the whole incident.  That's exactly what I heard, practically verbatim.
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« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2007, 01:39:08 PM »

I taped it Don.  I wish I had a memory like that!

I didn't have to listen for long.  As much as they complain about AM, if they didn't have AM to talk about, what would they do?  Just a bunch of old ladies I guess.

It's always been a good decision to have taken that touch-typing course in high school.
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73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
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« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2007, 02:44:40 PM »

From QRZ.com QSL information listing:

KC8NBG       Lookups: 728

Stanley R Young
928 LEFT FREEMANS CREEK ROAD
CAMDEN WV 26338
USA
QSL:   am8sux aka hemorhoid
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73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
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« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2007, 02:48:51 PM »

There was no KC8CYV in the database. 

From QRZ.com QSL information listing:

KC8TYV       Lookups: 43

William D Martin
349 Crown Hill Rd
Leon WV 25123
USA
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73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
ka3zlr
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« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2007, 07:14:13 PM »

Yea Mack and where's the guy at that's supposed to be watching and heading this type of activity off...prolly watching Animal House too.
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« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2007, 07:52:19 PM »

There was no KC8CYV in the database. 




KC8CYV
CUSHING, JOHN W
Technician
expired on        03/25/2006
cancelled on     12/08/1997



not that it matters....

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AF9J
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« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2007, 09:46:11 PM »

Paul,

You're talking about a Piss and Moan thread, exposing these idiots on the 'Zed.  Might as well, after all Charles, N5PVT does that to the Winlink users who have a chronic habit of  trashing in progress HF Packet QSOs.  He calls them "Winlids on Parade" threads, and even posts the spectrum display shots of their Pactor III signals, wiping out Packet QSOs.  Here's an example of one of his "Winlids on Parade" threads:

http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=1dc1f8b660aef533a5eff4c41ad4f486;act=ST;f=7;t=175903

73,
Ellen - AF9J

P.S. - BTW after reading Tom's transcription of their junvenile behavior, I believe that W8NB (who frankly doesn't deserve his OT, W 1x2 call) and company deserve to be ridiculed.
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« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2007, 10:55:39 AM »

I watch these kinds of clowns on the spectrum display a lot. They park themselves just above the positive modulation around 3 KHz away. Then they runl LSB. Be careful this could be a reason to limit our BW at the FCC. I would not P&M too much. Just ignor them and turn up the strapper.
Many of there guys are not that wide compared to an AM signal. The slop buckeks could argue they don't copy USB while in LSB mode.
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« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2007, 11:04:40 AM »

Frank said:
Quote
I watch these kinds of clowns on the spectrum display a lot. They park themselves just above the positive modulation around 3 KHz away. Then they runl LSB. Be careful this could be a reason to limit our BW at the FCC. I would not P&M too much. Just ignor them and turn up the strapper.

Hi Frank. This may be the case when there is indeed un-intentional QRM going on. But when there is recorded evidence that they are out to intentionally interfere with an ongoing QSO, then it is time to take action. We shouldn't be door mats for anyone.
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« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2007, 12:11:00 PM »

Okay guys.  We need to do something instead of just talking about it.  On page one of this thread, I made an offer to store MP3's of these recordings on my web space, which by the way, I don't really use for anything else, and I have plenty of space to archive these recordings in ONE place for Hollingsworth to listen to each one at his leisure by simply clicking on the link to the MP3.  I have yet to get a single recording from anyone...

If we want to at least attempt to stop these nuts, we need to make it as convenient for Riley as possible.

My suggestion was to wait until we had a good handful of recordings, online, on the web, then inform Riley where to find them.  I think this should coincide with a letter, and/or email to Riley.  Paul/VJB would be my first choice in composing a document to Hollingsworth, explaining the problem, and comments made on the recordings.  Sorry Paul. Wink

The document should state names and calls of all who are in favor of this report.  Numbers mean a lot to Riley on these sort of things.  I know, as he has requested similar petitions from me and others in the past.  However with good recordings of their schnanigans, the proof is in the pudding, and names nor calls will really be needed, however I think we should step up to the plate and volunteer to state our calls, etc, as I think it will mean a lot more to the enforcement bureau if we do.

As far as them (the nuts) finding the recordings, so be it!  That alone might encourage them to stop their childish behavior.  It is not illegal to post recordings from ham radio QSO's on the web, as those transmissions ARE in the public domain.

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73 de W5AMI - Brian
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« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2007, 12:29:39 PM »

Thanks for the draft.
Let's move it ahead and I'm on board.

Tell us the best way to get MP3 files to you.

Sometimes an email attachment will get nailed by filters.
Is there an FTP protocol you can share, non-published, and we can just upload the things?

Or, although it's a bit more work, perhaps a "gallery" style of HTML page would be best, especially if we expect to publicize a rogue's gallery, with important comments as to operating conditions, circumstances, and efforts to resolve.

But maybe lets start with just an index page that Riley can go to, and he can match the narrative in an email with the sound files that illustrate. We can publicise the rogue's gallery later, especially after a few Riley Letters have gone out.
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« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2007, 12:56:30 PM »

Thanks Paul,

I think gmail will take a 20 meg file max.  If it's an MP3, that would be a LONG play.  If this doesn't work, I'll set up an anonymous FTP account that will put them right where they need to go.  Actually, that would probably be the thing to do, so until further notice (soon), let me get that setup.

For those that do not have an FTP client, send them to - ars.w5ami@gmail.com

Thanks Paul.  Soon as I have the directory on the server setup, I will let everyone on here know how to access it.

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73 de W5AMI - Brian
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« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2007, 01:04:28 PM »

Thanks Brian,

That's a great idea.

73,
Ellen - AF9J
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« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2007, 01:30:54 PM »

Okay, I have setup an FTP account with unlimited space (well within some gigs).

Anyone that is interested in contributing recordings in MP3 format of these guys on 3892, please contact either Paul/VJB, or me with an email or PM on this forum.  Either of us can give you the FTP address, username and password.

Public access to the recordings is set to: http://w5ami.net/3892/  which will allow anyone, including the culprits (if they find it) to listen to what we are getting from them.

If you upload your recordings directly via FTP, they will show up right away on that URL.

Let's get this rolling guys.  BTW, if there are any other misfits on other freqs. causing deliberate interference to AM'ers, I can set up a separate FTP account to keep these things separate for Hollingsworth.  Just let me know.

Brian / wa5am


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73 de W5AMI - Brian
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« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2007, 01:31:49 PM »

Thanks Brian,

That's a great idea.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

You're welcome Ellen.  I just hope it's not in vain for any of us...  Sure can't hurt!

73
Brian / wa5am
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73 de W5AMI - Brian
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KA1ZGC
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« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2007, 02:10:33 PM »

Brian,

If you run low on space, let me know. I've got several gig over on audiophools.net that I'm not using, and would gladly use it to host these recordings.

Which reminds me, I gotta pay my hosting bill soon. Glad I remembered that, that would be embarrasing!  Undecided

--Thom
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« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2007, 02:15:09 PM »

Brian,

If you run low on space, let me know. I've got several gig over on audiophools.net that I'm not using, and would gladly use it to host these recordings.

Which reminds me, I gotta pay my hosting bill soon. Glad I remembered that, that would be embarrasing!  Undecided

--Thom
Killer Audio One Zero Gravity Copper

Will do Thom.  If we can get some good incriminating recordings, it shouldn't take much after that to put 'em where they need to go.

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« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2007, 02:21:44 PM »

I have never been involved in squabbles with the sidebanders on 3892 or 3889, nor have I listened to them before.  I got somewhat involved here the other day out of curiosity I guess, due to the complaining I have been reading on this forum.

Right away when I tuned to 3892 Friday night, the topic was the AM’ers.  I think that one guy in particular has the AMers as his primary subject.  (Some of the others are getting tired of it being brought up so much, it seems, as I have done a little more listening Saturday 12/8.)  It only took a few minutes of listening for me to hear a deliberate foray onto 3885 to cause deliberate interference to an AM QSO.  I doubt that the AM’ers ever noticed any interference as they were weak and probably were far away geographically.  (See my transcription posted on page 2.)

I look upon this act as one guy from 3892 showing off to others from the same group who would also be listening to 3885 for the incursion.  This is directly akin to the antics of a group of teenagers in high school pulling Saturday night stunts, usually aided by the influence of some alcohol.

After a day of monitoring I have these impressions:
1.   Some of these people have the idea that since they have been interfered with by AM transmissions that it is then permitted to interfere with ANY AM QSO at any time forward.
2.  At this point, I presume that AMers have indeed at times been at fault causing interference to the 3892 QSOs.  I also believe, and have witnessed, that people from 3892 have caused interference to 3885 QSOs.  Some of this interference was unintentional.   And some of it is deliberate, on both sides.
3.  I also believe that there are 3rd party radio miscreants out there who are trolling for these established conflict regions and swoop in and do interference leaving parties 1 and 2 pointing at each other.
4.  The fellows on 3892 are now well aware of ‘blogs talking about them.  The feeling I get is that they are not happy with how things have evolved on this situation.  They have been talking to each other on the phone about this.  As Frank WA1GFZ points out, the long-term results of such squabbles may not be good.
5.  It sounds to me like some of the fellows are long-time hams and have a good amount of experience with the past radio gear as we do.  Some of the presently issued call letters may be misleading as to the depth of operating and hands-on experience. 
6.   To operate LSB at 3 to 7 kHz ABOVE the national AM calling frequency is a fundamentally risky situation.  Again from my listening of just one day, some of the operators are apparently not aware of the ARRL band plan 3885 kHz AM channel.

My opinion:
If you were interfered with, it is up to your responsibility to file a report to the proper authorities or shut up about it.  Whining to others should not be accepted here any more.

We now have 400 kHz of phone space on 80 and 75 meters.  This whole situation seems silly to me.  One New Year’s initiative is for all GENERALs to upgrade to EXTRA.  This is so easy now as it only involves studying and taking a 50 question multiple-choice test.

The whole thing always comes down to being a considerate operator.  You can’t blame Glen Bash, Glen Baxter, the ARRL, the VECs, multiple-choice tests, no-code, FCC, or George Bush for this. It is YOUR personal ethics as the factor.   Considerate operation can’t be legislated and mode sub-bands will only waste spectrum. 

Yes the technology is “progressing”.  There are more phone and teleprinter modes every week it seems.  Everyone needs to learn to recognize other modes and what spectrum the transmissions and receivers require.  And just because we are on AM and there are no occupied bandwidth rules yet, that doesn’t mean that it is impossible for any AM signals out there to be too wide!  As strange as it may sound, there are some AM transmitter systems on the air with technical faults.

As Brian WA5AM says, it is time to do sometime about this situation.  Steve WA1QIX’s letter to some of the fellows on 3892 is having a positive effect, I believe.  Personally, I have not been involved in the problems, so at this point I am bowing out.  Good luck.
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73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
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« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2007, 02:51:04 PM »

Good post Tom.

Especially poignant is noting how those who plan to file complaints had better not be guilty of the same thing, be they paybacks, retaliation, or the initial volley.

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« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2007, 03:38:09 PM »

Especially poignant is noting how those who plan to file complaints had better not be guilty of the same thing, be they paybacks, retaliation, or the initial volley.
Indeed, be careful.  One can also be sued.  I was years ago, over some local miscreant's CB-radio tomfoolery. Undecided
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« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2007, 04:21:57 PM »

Mack, you are certainly correct.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander  Grin

The gentlemanly thing to do is move when politely asked - either side.  However anonymous "you're splattering, shut that damn thing off" complaints are of course to be ignored.  We AMers put up with a hell of a lot more SSB junk in our passbands than they will ever hear a few sibilance artifacts in theirs.

Another great annoyance is those SSTVers just above 3700.  They do NOT like any incursions anywhere close to their chosen channel - be it in use or not.
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« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2007, 04:57:17 PM »

We also need to take advantage of the fact that we have two sidebands (well except for some of the more modern transceivers with carrier and one sideband).  For my main AM station with the Johnson Desk and a Viking 500 I use the KP-81 as the standard receiver but I also keep something with selectable sidebands that can be patched in immediately; currently the standby receiver is an SX-100 since the SX-115 just got hitched to a recently acquired HT-32B.  Receivers like the Halli SX-100,101,115,117 and the Hammarlund HQ-170/180 do a great job of letting you choose the sideband with the least interference and generally I have little problems with the SSB noise from just above or below the "window" and it also can be helpful in avoiding other AM signals in the window.   In the "canoe anchor" division the Drake R-4 line receivers do a similarly excellent job of interference mitigation.

In the projects waiting to happen, I have a bunch of the 85 Kc transformers that I plan to make an external selectable sideband strip and detector which will work with any of my 455 Kc IF receivers.  I am also intrigued by a short article I ran across in an RSGB publication which describes a Rhode and Schwarz variable bandwidth strip which uses 2 narrow range variable oscillators, 4 mixers, two lowpass filters at 30 Kcs, and a couple of bandpass filters at 300 Kcs to form a variable bandwidth filter from around 500 cycles out to 16 Kcs with very steep and consistent skirts across its range.  Basically it uses the first lowpass filter to shape one side of the passband then inverts the signal and shapes the opposite side of the passband with the remaining lowpass filter thus the skirts are basically determined by the quality of the lowpass filters.  I know that this sort of thing is typically accomplished today with DSP but the R&S approach does look interesting.

Rodger WQ9E


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« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2007, 05:00:18 PM »

Another great annoyance is those SSTV'ers just above 3700.  They do NOT like any incursions anywhere close to their chosen channel - be it in use or not.


Yes this is a recording of the QSO we had today . We got on around 3 in the afternoon and it was clear channel and then the SStv guys fired up. They were zero beat with us. I guess that was a coincidence?

What you hear is me just hitting the SSB button and they are directly on frequency.

http://amfone.net/audio/3715.mp3

G
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