WOWO Radio

[flintstone mop]

Hello AMers
Maybe not a Ham topic BUT What wimpy station in New York bought WOWO and changed the clear frequency license to 10KW at night so they could run higher power in New York?? I know 45 watts probably doesn't go very far.
Fred

[Bacon, WA3WDR]

There is WLIB on 1190 in New York City...  They have long wanted to be a nighttime broadcaster, I think they wanted to move to 1200 after dark some years back.  But WOWO is so stong around NYC at night, even at 10KW they would have to go directional to make any difference.

[W9GT]

It was an "Urban R&B station"  in NYC, I don't know the call sign.  We were very sorry to hear about this happening to our prized gem of the airwaves.  WOWO is extremely steeped in tradition and has a fantastic history.  It has now been relegated to a P-W'er at night.  It still is 50KW in daytime, but only 10KW directional at night.

I went to a classic rock & roll show several years ago that had several of the original artists from the 50s and 60s.  Lou Cristie (spelling?)  was one of them (Lightnin's Strikin Again) and it was delight hearing him again.   Anyway, he said in his remarks during the show that he listened to WOWO all the time in Philadelphia at night back in the good old days, and when he heard his records being played on WOWO...........he knew he had made it!!!

WOWO ranked right up there with several of the other famous giant stations like WBZ, WLS, WLW, CKLW, XERF, KYW, etc etc.

By the way, Bob Seivers and Bob Chase of the original fab four are still alive!!  Bob Chase is over 80 and still on the air doing sports.   WOWO is now, of course, a talk radio station.

73,  Jack, W9GT
Fort Wayne, Indiana home of WOWO

[W9GT]

Yes, WLIB, I think that is it.

73,  Jack, W9GT

[N8LGU]

I remember hearing something several years ago that the FCC did away with "clear channel" on AM Broadcast, WOWO was, of course, clear channel and was restricted to lower power at night so other stations could use that freq. BTW, I used to listen to WOWO at night after my local AM station signed off with my homebrew crystal radio. That was 1961!

[Bacon, WA3WDR]

I can believe that the FCC did that.  It's really getting bad on the old BCB at night.  It seems that there isn't a station that isn't fluttering with two other signals strongly audible on frequency,except the really local locals.

I remember much the same thing on the so-called "graveyard" channels back in the 60s, but there were a number of clear distant signals like WSL, WSB, WLW, WBZ, WOWO, WKBW, WABC, WMAQ, WJR, WBBM, CKLW (until some half-megawatt behemoth in Belize came on 800 KHz), etc.  You could sort of hear WOAI 1200 from Texas, but that was pretty weak up north, and the buzz and splash really chopped it up.  Man, I could drive all the way down to Delaware at night, and WABC was the only thing on 770.  Maybe it still is, but it seems that more and more, they're all getting to be graveyarders at night.  I guess it was only fair that they should all be unlistenable, instead of a few that you could hear.  Once in a while, I like to tune in Boston's WBZ down here near Washington, DC, and hear nothing else on the channel but a little splash from stations on the sides.  And there would be WHO on 1040 kind of weakly from Iowa, too.  WWVA 1070 from Wheeling used to blast in up on Long Island.  Man, it's Memory Lane in old Baconville tonight.  Remember classical music on AM from WQXR on 1560... "The Radio Station of the New York Times"?  It was so shortwavy that we got selective fading every night on LI.  WTOP-1500 is like that around DC, only they changed callsigns to WTWP now.  WBT 1110 in Charlotte.  Sigh.  Those were some days.

Of course, tuning a car radio is not as easy as twisting the tuning knob any more.  You press and hold a button now... it's just not the same.

[W2XR]

Bacon,

Remember when WGSM Huntington would shut down after critical hours, and CBL Toronto would come blasting in on 740 AM? They ran 50 KW on that clear channel frequency.

I have'nt heard CBL in years; any idea what happened to them?

Funny, I had a landline conversation with Eric, WB2CAU this evening and the subject of the BC-1F and the BC-5P at WGSM came up.

Hope all is well with you!

73,

Bruce, W2XR

[Mike/W8BAC]

The licensed Clear Channel (high power 24/7) AM broadcasters are still in business. Here is a list of frequencies to listen for.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/amclearradiotable.html

Mike

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

1130 is now WBBR.

[W9GT]

Very interesting comments Phil.  Well, I think WOWO still does a lot to serve its midwestern largely conservative audience, however, it is certainly true that much of the programming is the sydicated stuff like Glen, and Rush, and the like.  Although those shows are very popular around here.  I will say also that there are some pretty highly-rated local news/talk shows during morning and evening drive times.  So there is still a major local influence.

It is shame, but certainly understandable from a business standpoint, that the tradition and historical significance of the truly great "clear channel" stations has somewhat gone by the wayside.  WOWO is hanging in there, but I'm sure there are many listeners that would love to see it restored to its former night-time power house status.

73,  Jack, W9GT

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

I was just discussing this recently with someone. The memories of WO-WO and hearing them any night when tuning around the dial. Great signal and great jingles. No doubt my true love of radio started way back then, laying in bed at night in a room lit only by the glow of the tubes and dial, tuning around and listening to the country. WPTR in NY was a favorite in the high school years. Also remember WTIC(?) in Chicago? Picked that up easily on the car radio after getting my license and be let loose on the world. 

The parental units listened to WWVA, Wheeling West Virginia sometimes on the weekends. I remember being absolutely amazed that we could hear it on a Saturday afternoon. From way down the map, into out livingroom, no wires attached. Amazing stuff.

[Bacon, WA3WDR]

Bacon,

Remember when WGSM Huntington would shut down after critical hours, and CBL Toronto would come blasting in on 740 AM? They ran 50 KW on that clear channel frequency.

I have'nt heard CBL in years; any idea what happened to them?

Funny, I had a landline conversation with Eric, WB2CAU this evening and the subject of the BC-1F and the BC-5P at WGSM came up.

Hope all is well with you!

73,

Bruce, W2XR

Hi Bruce,

Yes, the Toronto 50KW station on 740KHz used to ID as CBL, Toronto.  When I worked at WGSM 740 in Huntington, I double-checked frequency by turning on the exciter and listening to the beat against CBL.  The Toronto station is still on there, but evidently it IDs as CBC now.  I listen once in a while, it plays some old 1940 and 1950 classics.  It comes in very well around Washington DC at night.

I liked the BC1-F at WGSM.  It really sounded good, although I could see some curvature on the trapezoid pattern.  WGSM on omni with the BC1P was great!  I think that the three-tower directional array was OK, but the four-tower array that replaced it when they went 25KW daytime had some odd sidelobes, and on the north side of the beam, receivers really had to be tuned carefully for it to sound OK.  That four-tower array went up after some dopey kids cut the guys to one tower of the three-tower array (crashing the tower), and then got caught because their car wouldn't start.  They're lucky the tower didn't come down on top of them.  The four-tower array had a frequency-selective pattern to protect WACE 730 in Chiopee, Mass (I used to hear WACE come on the air in the early morning just before WGSM-740 back in the early 60s).  The antenna may have been changed since then, though.

The BC5-P at WGSM always sounded awful compared to the BC1-F.  The 5-P did not have nearly the clarity of the 1-P, and it was not as loud, because its audio phase distortion prevented the Volumax from controlling modulation peaks well.  I tried to modify the negative feedback on it to improve the audio - but it failed one day, and I got canned.  Oops... it was not mine to play with.  Gotta remember that.

I think it was Timtron who told me that the 5-P was really a 2.5KW transmitter that was pushed to run 5KW.  I can believe it.

When I worked at WGSM around 1970, they came on at dawn with 1KW non-directional, then a few hours later they went to 5KW directional with the three tower array.  It may be that the three-tower directional array with the phasing networks did not help the sound, but I don't think so.  I sneakily tried the BC1-P on the 3-tower array one day, and as I recall, it still sounded good.  The four-tower array and the 25KW transmitter sounded fine out along Long Island, but in northern Huntington off the beam, it wasn't so good.

WGSM was running some awful low-power during the nighttime back around the 1980s, but I couldn't hear it more than about a half mile away from the transmitter.  Maybe to the east (on the beam) it did better, but not much.  In the late 80s, I listened from Patchogue (out east, on the beam), and I could really tell when they kicked to high power directional in the morning!  What a difference!  Sounded good, too.

In the 90s it was bought by Radio Disney, and my mom complained about the splatter on WOR 710.  Then I think WHLI 1100 (Hempstead) bought it and used it as a more westerly outlet.  Maybe I have this sequence backwards.  I went to the transmitter site and looked at the towers, and I found one of the old abandoned concrete tower bases from the three tower array... wow, it was broken down.  That's when I began to realize how many years had gone by.

The last I heard, the 740 KHz station in Huntington, NY changed callsigns and went off the air except for some tests, but maybe someone bought it and put it back on the air.

 

[W2XR]

Hi Bacon,

Wow, it's been a long time since we spoke! Good to hear from you! Interesting re CBL; yes, I have heard the music format you had mentioned on that frequency, but I had no idea it was coming from the former CBL.

I worked at WGSM-AM during summers between 1971 and 1973 when I was in college.  Jerry, WA2FNQ got me in there, and the CE at the time was Elliot Gross. I used do the inspections at the xmtr site in the morning and the switch-over from 1 KW ND, to 5 KW-D, along with any other xmtr and studio maintenance that was required. Don Huber, WB2UKA worked there at the same time as well, but Jerry, Elliot, and I did most of the engineering work.

For 17 year old ham with a 1st Phone, it was a really great job, even if I was paid minimum wage ($1.60 per hour) at the time! Hell, I would have worked there for free.!

I agree; the BC-1F sounded superior to the BC-5P. I attribute the great sound of the BC-1F to the P-P 845 class A driver with only 6 dB of negative feedback, driving the P-P class B 833As. The entire audio chain in that rig was all triode. The BC-5P used a quartet of EL-34s pentode-connected with unregulated screens in class AB1 with lots (around 20 dB) of negative feedback in an ill-fated attempt to linearize that mess. I agree, the 5 KW rig sounded horrible compared to the BC-1F.

I loved the sound of that BC-1F; so much so that when the BC-1F at WALK in Patchogue became available in 3/06, I parted it out. I took everything on the inside and outside of that rig with the sole exception of the cabinet. Too bad that that the xmtr building was extended around the rig, otherwise I would have taken it complete. It was a shame to part it out, but otherwise the CE was going to relegate the poor xmtr to the sad fate of the dumpster.

I am in the process of integrating the 845 driver deck from the WALK rig into my homebrew pair of 4-400As modulated by a pair of 833As. The 1200 VDC and 400 VDC power supply chassis has been drilled and punched and I should start assembly of this soon, along with a shunt regulated grid bias supply for the 833As.

I remember the BC-1F sounding like a really great sounding jukebox over the on-air monitor; very rich and full sounding, with extreme clarity (i.e low distortion)  in the transmitted audio; this is the sound I am attempting to emulate with  my rig once the 845 driver is integrated within the station.

I  don't recall the nonlinearity issue on the 'scope with the BC-1F. What were your thoughts as to the cause of this?

Jerry still has the dynamic presence equalizer that you built for WGSM. He was using it at one time, but I think it's sidelined currently.

I seem to recall the incident wherein you modified the feedback loop in the BC-5P, and being terminated by Elliot for this. In retrospect, I don't think modifying the global feedback around the modulator and driver in that rig would have helped what was bascially a lost cause in that xmtr.

I was at the xmtr site one morning when the BC-5P blew off the air. Someting had shorted in the 5600 VDC supply, but I can't remember the nature of the failure. I put the BC-1F on immediately until the the fault in the BC-5P was corrected.

Have you been on 75M lately? I can't recall the last time I heard you on.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family, Bob!

Best 73,

Bruce, W2XR

[Bacon, WA3WDR]

Oh man, that thing is still around?  It was a three-band compressor (bass, mids, treble) using 12AU7s balanced push-pull for gain control, if I recall.  I forget if I had transformers in the 12AU7 plates or not.  It all started when some political group put an ad on the station, and it sounded sooooooo muffled and bassy...  I decided that what was needed was dynamic EQ.  Also, I was trying to get the station to sound as loud as WCBS 880.

It is amazing that the thing even worked!  I think I used simple RC crossover filters on it, and it was really crude compared to what I was thinking of.  I tried it on the air, but when I asked Jim Ferguson how it sounded, he told me that it sounded compressed, and listening to it when he said that, I agreed.  I thought it sounded like the treble was too compressed.  I think I fiddled with the gain balancing, and then just put it aside.

Back then, I liked the old-fashioned compressed sound, because I could hear it working.  Years later when I worked in studio sound, I learned how wrong that was, and I started learning how to compress without the compression itself being noticeable.

I was on 75 a year ago, and it will probably be a few more years until I get on again.

Yep, they must have hired you after I got the boot.  I deserved it, no contest.  After that, I drove a school bus and roadied for a while, then I built video cameras with DUQ Bill and GKB Jesse, and Gabe.  Those were some years.

[W2XR]

Bacon,

I guess that was the Bruhns version of the Optimod-AM/multi-band audio processing! I seem to recall that the input xfmr in that thing was a UTC LS-10X, but I don't recall if the output was xfmr coupled. I guess it was, so as to maintain a balanced audio output to the xmtr audio input.

Any idea as to why the BC-1F exhibited the nonlinearity you described re the trap pattern on the 'scope???

73,

Bruce

[Bacon, WA3WDR]

Oh!  I forgot about that question.

It was a gradual curvature that slightly reduced the positive peaks.  I think it may have been caused by lack of modulation of the driver stage.  But I didn't know about such things back then, and I didn't check to see if the driver was modulated or not.  I think it was an 807 driving an 845 driving two 833as, and if the 845 was not modulated, it would have been a fairly stiff driver source (the relatively low plate Z of a triode).  Modulated triodes especially like more drive on mod peaks, but tetrodes and pentodes do too.  A tetrode or pentode driver would tend to produce more drive on positive peaks, because of their plate resistance, and the dynamics of PA control grid impedance with plate (and screen, if present) modulation.  A triode driver, with its lower plate resistance, would be stiffer, producing less voltage for the PA grid on positive modulation peaks than a high plate Z driver tube would.  (A lot of self-bias on the PA control grid helps, too.)

The effective source resistance of the modulator probably worked with the varying I/E ratio that this curvature would produce in the modulated stage, to reduce the overall distortion from this source a bit - the modulated B+ would swing a little higher on positive peaks because the impedance of the modulated stage was a little higher up there, and this would compensate for the curvature somewhat.  Negative feedback around the modulator would reduce that tendency, but it would reduce other distortion.

It was a soft, smooth curvature, so it wasn't the sort of thing that would sound harsh.  And probably the overall distortion actually worked with the typical upward curvature of receiver diode detector distortion, delivering better audio to the listener than perfect modulation would have done.

[W2XR]

Hi Bacon,

The BC-1F did not modulate the 813 driver stage, so I think you are right here; the curvature that you described may very well have been due to the lack of modulation applied to the driver.

BTW, the 845s were used as the audio driver, not the RF driver. Gates ran them in P-P class A with self-bias, and as I mentioned in an earlier post, I believe that the audio driver in that rig was in large part responsible for the great sound of that transmitter. I further believe that the BC-1F was the last Gates rig in the 250 thru 5000 watt class that used class A directly heated triodes as the audio driver. Probably too costly, especially in term of the massive 1250 VDC power supply design used in the BC-1F. Later rigs used 6L6s, 5881s, 807s, EL-34s, etc., (all beam power pentode tubes) with lots of negative feedback to linearize the driver. I think that as a result of all that feedback, slew induced distortion was probably an issue with those later rigs, whereas the BC-1F used only 6 dB of global feedback from the 833A plates to the triode-connected 6J7 cathodes. 6 dB is a very benign amount of inverse feedback with minimal audio artifacts, and triodes can get by with anywhere from zero to 8 dB of feedback typically.

Best 73,

Bruce

[W2XR]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the question!

No, I never worked there, but I literally grew up listening to that station on both AM and FM, as my folks were (and still are) enthusiasts of classical music.

If you  look up my call on QRZ.com, you'll see my reason for selecting this call under the "biography" section.

WQXR always had a reputation for the utmost professionalism in terms of programming quality, on-air talent, and their technical quality. In a sea of commercial radio broadcasting garbage, dominated in large part by the crass youth culture so prevelant here in the U.S., they are perhaps the last remaining bastion of good music in the New York metroplitan area.

73,

Bruce

[W2JBL]

the current 740KC in Huntington runs a pretty nice oldies and classic pop format. i'd listen to it more though if the audio wasn't SOOO bad. really distorted, baselining etc- it's absolutley putrid. good strong signal on my side of the Sound , but nasty bad audio. it's the only place i know where i can hear Patsy Kline, Ruth Brown and Buddy Holly on the same station... did i read a few posts back that the N.A.A.C.P driven owners of Inner City actually considered putting COUNTRY on WLIB after the Airhead America meltdown? i would have loved that, being a country fan, but everybody knows that listening to country music is in fact ILLEGAL in New York County, punishable under penalty of being labled a Cracker...

[W9GT]

Here is a nice web site that shows WOWO transmitter(s):

http://www.j-hawkins.com/wowo.html

I pass by the WOWO studio site every day on my way to and from work.  It is now the location for one other AM station and three or four FM stations.  All owned now by Federated Media.  It was the location of WKJG-AM (5KW dir) and actually even the first location of WKJG-TV before the TV station moved to a new site with an 800' + tower back in 1954.  Now the TV station is WISE and it has combined with another TV station WPTA and they are running two network channels (ABC and NBC) from one studio location.  The old WKJG-TV studio site is up for sale.  WANE (CBS) and WFFT (FOX) are still on their own.  Lots and lots of changes to broadcast stations these days......it is all about money and getting the most bang for the buck.  The two TV channels that have combined forces have only one news organization between them.  They just call it Indiana's News Center to get away from specifically identifying it with either station's call sign.  Seems like we might be getting a bit short-changed that way by not having more choices, however, there is so much competition with the CATV networks for news that it is not the same ballgame any more.   

73,  Jack, W9GT

[W2XR]

Hi Chris (KD2XA) & Bacon,

Had to go into NY City today on business, and was able to finish up early and get back to the Huntington train station around 4PM. I decided to take a ride over to the former WGSM 740-AM xmtr site off of Wilton Road, since I had not been up there since probably 1975. Yes, I do have a life, but I was only 4 miles from the xmtr so I said what the heck. It's now WNYH Radio. Instead of the 3 tower DA when I worked there part-time back in the early 70's, it is now a 4-tower DA daytime only, and I seem to recall that when they transitioned over to the 4 tower array, the xmtr output was increased to either 25 or 50 KW from the original 5 KW. The site was really upgraded from the last time I was there, with a new & much larger xmtr building, well kept (i.e. mowed)  antenna field, etc. The houses in that area are incredible, essentially all mansions, and the 30+ acre antenna field  must be worth a fortune in Long Island real estate.

But the audio was horrid, as you had indicated in your previous post. Even 3 miles from the xmtr, the signal was 50 Khz wide due to hitting the baseline (no, my car radio was not overloaded at that distance), with no presence whatsoever in the audio, even with the NRSC pre-emphasis. You'd think that with modern audio processing gear from Orban, Omnia, etc., that overmodulation in the negative direction would be a thing of the past, but it goes to show the complete lack of technical excellence on behalf of the engineering staff of WNYH.

They signed off at 5 PM EST, and the Toronto 50 KW clear channel came booming in immediately on my car radio. What a difference in quality; clean, with well balanced response; obviously the technical staff at the Toronto station knew what they were doing. And with no selective fading over the 350+ mile path.

Interestingly, both stations have nearly the same format; 50s-60s oldies, etc.

Just figured I'd give you guys a glimpse of what the site and audio of the former WGSM-AM were like.

73,

Bruce

[Bacon, WA3WDR]

Hmmm, not good.  It's a shame that it's run so poorly.

I believe when they went with the four-tower array back around the 1980s, that station went to 25KW directional pointing out toward eastern Long Island during mid-day.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

In a sea of commercial radio broadcasting garbage, dominated in large part by the crass youth culture so prevelant here in the U.S.

Maybe so, but most stations are shooting for the 25-54 group, preferably the upper end of that group, since they spend the most money. Thus all the 60's oldies stations. Case in point:

Interestingly, both stations have nearly the same format; 50s-60s oldies, etc.

Kinda ironic that the generation that grew up deriding their parents and other old fuddy-duddies for listening to that "old" Big Band music are now themselves old fuddy-duddies listening to 40+ year old music (far older than Big Band was in the 50's and 60's). 

[KB2WIG]

...........  beat me daddy    ...........   

[WA3VJB]

So somebody explain to me why "WKBW" abandoned their doo-wop, pre-1965 Oldies format after about a year's time?

Are folks for that genre "too old"  or what?

Let me take you back to last year at about this time, 50,000 Watts, with our own W2KBW:[/color]