The Taser in Action

[W1UJR]

But I do wonder how many people are driving with suspended licenses just in order to get to work and out of fear of  loosing their jobs. Sure, it's no excuse but think how many people end up working jobs that are very far from home,. they are under extreme pressure to get in on time, public transportation stinks in many areas, jobs are not easy to come by. I'll bet on any given rush hour there are plenty of people driving with suspended licenses.

Oh yea, blame the system, not the criminal.
The evil system made me do it!

Hey John, news flash, driving with a suspended license is a crime.
And you had to commit a crime or crimes to get the license suspended in the first place.

So let me understand what you are trying to say.

Because someone made poor choices, committed a crime and lost their license, we should have some form of empathy for them continuing to commit a crime by driving with a suspended license because they are "under pressure"?

Oh yea, I misunderstood.
The poor underprovided people being oppressed by the system and the "the man", (typified by the police officer) and need to drive to their job in the suburbs. Gosh, they should get a free pass, what was I thinking. Heck, let's just give them a chauffer.

Isn’t it clear that said person lacks even the most basic ability to make clear and logical decisions in the first place? Why in the world you would think that person has some right to continue to drive after their license has been suspended because of their irresponsible actions? Do you want to put yourself or your loved ones in her way?

Come on John, the apple does not fall far from the tree.
That woman is so typical of what is wrong with this country.
She is committing the crime, actually crimes, and then blames the system. The important thing here is her immediate gratification.

The cop is “racist”, they arrested her brother “for no reason”, she knows she has a suspended license yet she is speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, and has a broken windshield and brake light. Did I add in the fact she is a single mother? And that she was speeding because she was in a good mood “from just getting her nails done.” Oh, she makes very good choices. Care to guess who is funding her lifestyle? Where is her culpability, her responsibility in all this?

Let’s see, have a bastard, two or three out of wedlock, get your license suspended for criminal behavior, continue to drive on said suspended license, break the law yet again by speeding, having a broken windshield and brake light. Wear no seatbelt. Don’t obey the commands of a police officer, tell said police officer he is racist and arrests family members “for no reason”. Tie up valuable police resources while you yammer on the cell phone and smoke a cigarette. Oh yea, this one makes real good choices. Make sure we bottle than DNA to pass it on, NOT.

Please, stop the insanity.
I have one answer, Norplant and Personal Responsibility.
Irb seems to make more and more sense every day.


.

[wb1aij]

What does an incident that took place in Florida have to do with a New York senator?

[And you wonder why you New Yorkers have a senator like "Shrillary Clinton"  You deserve her.

I found those videos to be extremely disturbing and downright sickening, . The behavior of those cops is downright excessive and inexcuseable.

OK, for those of you that can't keep up I will explain:
The person from N.Y. who commented that he found the videos "extremely disturbing and downright sickening" is obviously a liberal, probably a supporter of the ACLU. It is liberals like him that allowed Shrillary Clinton to become a U.S. Senator. Get it?

[John Holotko]

But I do wonder how many people are driving with suspended licenses just in order to get to work and out of fear of  loosing their jobs. Sure, it's no excuse but think how many people end up working jobs that are very far from home,. they are under extreme pressure to get in on time, public transportation stinks in many areas, jobs are not easy to come by. I'll bet on any given rush hour there are plenty of people driving with suspended licenses.

Oh yea, blame the system, not the criminal.
The evil system made me do it!

You miss the whole point Bruce.  When and what type of crime warrtants being tased with 50,000 volts, and in this case, not once but twice. Stealing a stick of gum from a supermarket is a crime. But do we pull out a gun and blow a kid away because he stole a stick of gum ? In case you are not aware, 50,000 volts is potentially lethal. People have died soon after being tased. In this case the woman didn;t get out of the car. Hardly a reason for being tased.  The second tasing was even more absurd.  Because she didn;t roll over fast enough. This is the best two big strong cops can do  versus one 22 year old girl ? Ah well, I guess the macho thing is to side with the big guys.
 

Come on John, the apple does not fall far from the tree.
That woman is so typical of what is wrong with this country.

The same could be said for the system that  tased her.

She is committing the crime, actually crimes, and then blames the system. The important thing here is her immediate gratification.

If you call getting shocked with 50,000 volts instant gratification. Do you know something about her the rest of us don't ??

The cop is “racist”, they arrested her brother “for no reason”, she knows she has a suspended license yet she is speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, and has a broken windshield and brake light. Did I add in the fact she is a single mother? And that she was speeding because she was in a good mood “from just getting her nails done.” Oh, she makes very good choices. Care to guess who is funding her lifestyle? Where is her culpability, her responsibility in all this?

Bruce, it's easy to prejudge and condemn someone you don;t even know, isn't it ? We're you ever 22 years old ?? Did you ever do anything stupid or anything you regretted later on ? Sometimes when you're that age you think you have all the answers and angles figured out. Yeah, this girl was silly, she shot her mouth off. She was acting immature. She should have used more common sense.  Nobody  said she hasn;t learned her lesson. meanwhile all you know about her is that  she's 22 and black. That probably bothers a lot of people.

As far as funding her lifestyle you'll probably be doing that when you pay your taxes.  If she's shrewd she'll probably get some doctor to vouche that she was injured for life and then get  an attourney. In all liklihood she  may win a hefty settlement that will take care of her monetary needs for years to come.  But now I am prejudging her. Maybe she is more honest than I am giving her credit. Perhaps she won't try and sue.

Let’s see, have a bastard, two or three out of wedlock

What does that have  to do with the situation ? Was she tased for her sex life ?

, get your license suspended for criminal behavior, continue to drive on said suspended license, break the law yet again by speeding, having a broken windshield and brake light. Wear no seatbelt. Don’t obey the commands of a police officer, tell said police officer he is racist and arrests family members “for no reason”. Tie up valuable police resources while you yammer on the cell phone and smoke a cigarette. Oh yea, this one makes real good choices. Make sure we bottle than DNA to pass it on, NOT.

.Like I said upstairs Bruce. It's easy to prejudge, pass judgement, and condemn all in one shot.  Cast the first stone ye who has never sinned.

Please, stop the insanity.
I have one answer, Norplant and Personal Responsibility.
Irb seems to make more and more sense every day.

 Maybe if we had these things at the top level of leadership the general populus would follow suit.


Oops, one thing you left out. You mentioned  that this girl spawns bastard children, she refuses to bow to authority,   what an irresponsible criminal she is. You left out one thing. She was also on her way to WORK. See she could have saved herself all this trouble if she stayed home  and went on welfare.

[John Holotko]

What does an incident that took place in Florida have to do with a New York senator?

[And you wonder why you New Yorkers have a senator like "Shrillary Clinton"  You deserve her.

I found those videos to be extremely disturbing and downright sickening, . The behavior of those cops is downright excessive and inexcuseable.

OK, for those of you that can't keep up I will explain:
The person from N.Y. who commented that he found the videos "extremely disturbing and downright sickening" is obviously a liberal, probably a supporter of the ACLU. It is liberals like him that allowed Shrillary Clinton to become a U.S. Senator. Get it?

Yep, Hillary is our baby. We love her. . And oh yeah, what a commie organization that ACLU is.  Why would anyone in their right mind support an organization that stands in support of the average Americans constitutional rights that many brave Americans fought and died to preserve and protect. Perish the thought of supporting such a horrendous organization.

[W1UJR]

Oops, one thing you left out. You mentioned  that this girl spawns bastard children, she refuses to bow to authority,   what an irresponsible criminal she is. You left out one thing. She was also on her way to WORK. See she could have saved herself all this trouble if she stayed home  and went on welfare.

I believe she was on her way to her mothers house - unlikly to have a father in the picture, not work John.
She can't work, she just had her nails done.

I don't need to know much more about her before making an acessment.
Her attittude with the police and her foolish statements tell me all I know to know.

She got what was coming to her, and I'll wager she'll think twice next time.

Now, as to your statement that the Taser has caused deaths, please supply information to support that.

[Glenn K2KL]

That's right John and don't forget all us New Yorkers are liberals and we all vote exactly the same way on all issues..

I just love people that generalize!!!  :lol:  :lol: an entire state no less!

OK, for those of you that can't keep up I will explain:
The person from N.Y. who commented that he found the videos "extremely disturbing and downright sickening" is obviously a liberal, probably a supporter of the ACLU. It is liberals like him that allowed Shrillary Clinton to become a U.S. Senator. Get it?

[John Holotko]

Oops, one thing you left out. You mentioned  that this girl spawns bastard children, she refuses to bow to authority,   what an irresponsible criminal she is. You left out one thing. She was also on her way to WORK. See she could have saved herself all this trouble if she stayed home  and went on welfare.

I believe she was on her way to her mothers house - unlikly to have a father in the picture, not work John.
She can't work, she just had her nails done.

I don't need to know much more about her before making an acessment.
Her attittude with the police and her foolish statements tell me all I know to know.

And like I said before, you never knew anyone who was 22 and made a dumb mistake.  Did you condemn every aspect of their lives ?? How do you know so much about this woman's personal life ?? You can';t prejudge someone based on one incident.

She got what was coming to her, and I'll wager she'll think twice next time.

Well,  considering the manner in which you judged and condemned this woman, including her overall charachter in general and her enire personal life it doesn;t surprise me that you feel she got what was coming to her.   The only thing I might agree with is that she will probably think twice next time.  She may have been dumb enough to think she could verbally fight the system from her car window.

Now, as to your statement that the Taser has caused deaths, please supply information to support that.

There is a great deal of controversy surrounding the taser in more than one area. First area of controversy in that many people belive that the taser may be being used too liberally. This is not surprising being that it was marketed to police as a "safe", "effective", and "non lethal" weapon. Anyone familiar with electricity and high voiltages knows that a 50,000 volt shock strong enough to inflict severe pain and paralyze muscles can also kill.  It is at best a "potentially lethal" weapon.
\
The other area of controversity surrouns the idea of the taser as safe and/or non lethal. Numerous people have died after being tased. It may not be as "safe" and "non lethal" as ithe claims the manufacturer puts on the box.

[John Holotko]

That's right John and don't forget all us New Yorkers are liberals and we all vote exactly the same way on all issues..

That's right, from the most rural area to the deepest city everyone in NY is a liberal and we all hail to our Queen, her Majesty...Hillary.      

[W1UJR]

Numerous people have died after being tased. It may not be as "safe" and "non lethal" as ithe claims the manufacturer puts on the box.

Educate me John, please tell me where I can find information the "numerous people" who have died as a result of being tased.

Just give me 5 names, just a little proof.



-Bruce

[John Holotko]

Numerous people have died after being tased. It may not be as "safe" and "non lethal" as ithe claims the manufacturer puts on the box.

Educate me John, please tell me where I can find information the "numerous people" who have died as a result of being tased.

Just give me 5 names, just a little proof.
-Bruce

A simple google search would turn up tons of information. But, you can try this for startets:

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/1224taserlist24-ON.html

Yeah, I know, in only 17 cases did medical examiners say the taser contributed to the cause of death. But in at least another 25 cases the taser could not be ruled out as the cause of death. However, keep in mind. Even when a person died from cancer it's hard to say that cigarette smoking caused the death.  However, scientists are quite aware that a 50,000 (or higher) Volt shock strong enough to cause pain and muscle paralysis can also cause death.   Think of the B+ supply in your transmitter.  When you work on the rig you de-energize and discharge the power supplies. Sure you may get shocked numerous times and not suffer and fatal consequences. I have had several thousand volts pass through my heart and I lived. But I also realize that next  time that same exact jolt might kill me.  The concern with tasers is that if police are going to routinely use them liberally in traffic stops and/or to gain compliance they should at  least be aware that the weapon is potentially lethal, it can kill. And we the people have a right to be very concerned as we may be the ones who wind up getting zapped.

[W1UJR]

A simple google search would turn up tons of information. But, you can try this for startets:

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/1224taserlist24-ON.html

Yeah, I know, in only 17 cases did medical examiners say the taser contributed to the cause of death. But in at least another 25 cases the taser could not be ruled out as the cause of death. However, keep in mind. Even when a person died from cancer it's hard to say that cigarette smoking caused the death.  However, scientists are quite aware that a 50,000 (or higher) Volt shock strong enough to cause pain and muscle paralysis can also cause death.   Think of the B+ supply in your transmitter.  When you work on the rig you de-energize and discharge the power supplies. Sure you may get shocked numerous times and not suffer and fatal consequences. I have had several thousand volts pass through my heart and I lived. But I also realize that next  time that same exact jolt might kill me.  The concern with tasers is that if police are going to routinely use them liberally in traffic stops and/or to gain compliance they should at  least be aware that the weapon is potentially lethal, it can kill. And we the people have a right to be very concerned as we may be the ones who wind up getting zapped.

Good job John, thanks for looking that up.

Seems the first several which I read were people high on illegal drugs, guess one should avoid illegal drug use.

[K1JJ]

Yep, PROBABILITY is an interesting thing. The great equalizer.

Take ANY method of subduing a person and there will be a certain
death toll percentage. Over time. There have been baton deaths,
deaths from policeman sitting on the victim and smothering, pepper
spray deaths, police attack dog deaths, rubber bullet deaths - it
goes on and on.

The point being that there has to be a certain statistical death limit
put on the technique and if it goes above it, nationally, then it must
be outlawed or limited in use. My guess is that when we look back
10 years from now, either the Taser technology will have improved
to become safer or it will not be used unless it is a "fear for my
life" situation with lots of post-paperwork required, just like pulling
out a gun.  From what I've read, even though there is brick wall
current limiting, there are people who just cannot survive the jolt
required to knock them down. Probability says that X persons in the
world have sensitive and vunerable tickers and will check out from
such a blast.

I've seen the films of strapping men getting zapped and it looks worst
than a kick in the BA's.  Yes, there should be "degrees/ thresholds "
of use with certain weapons, and a Taser's use needs to be put at
a higher threshold than it is now in some areas.

T

[WD8BIL]

Do your part to limit tazer use.

Don't put yourself in a position where an Officer of the Law feels he needs to use it. If the lady in question had acted in a civil manner none of that would have happened. But it seems she acted according to her sorted past !!

I have no sympathy !

[K1JJ]

Do your part to limit tazer use.

Don't put yourself in a position where an Officer of the Law feels he needs to use it. If the lady in question had acted in a civil manner none of that would have happened. But it seems she acted according to her sorted past !!
I have no sympathy !

Yes, agreed!  Some people are stupid and challenge the cops.
All that leads to is physical harm and more legal problems.

What I'm talking about is the technique.  Let's look at a
hypothetical situation.... fantasy now.  Let's say that you
thought the cop stopping you was a hit man. You decided it
was better to run than get executed. [Or whatever scenario
reason you get zapped by mistake] Would you rather he used
pepper spray, or jumped on you with a judo hold - or used a
TASER?   The last thing I would want is a Taser, simply cuz of
the risk of death. I could survive a pepper spray or judo hold for
sure.

I think logic tells us that certain people, maybe even you, will
have a fatal heart attack after getting a dose of 50kv, even
current limited for 5 seconds... enough to knock you on your
ass. I've had only one dose of shock at 800Vdc that was enough
to knock me down. I cannot imagine going through it again at
the hands of a cop. Just imagine getting a big enough shock to
paralize you and knock you to the ground... gads!

I'm just saying that a "bad" person doesn't deserve to
be stopped with a technique that will cause X amount of people
to check out. They don't deserve that high a penalty for a
non-threatening "crime".  In the case presented here, the cop
did not "fear for his life" or was threatened with bodily harm.... that's
what I'm saying.

T

[kc2ifr]

Yup......the cocaine had NOTHING to do with any of the deaths...it was the tazer.
And that nasty shock from the tazer does NOT go thru the body organs.....only between those 2 little needles which are about 2 inches apart.
I still say that stupid broad got what she asked for.

[John Holotko]

A simple google search would turn up tons of information. But, you can try this for startets:

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/1224taserlist24-ON.html

Yeah, I know, in only 17 cases did medical examiners say the taser contributed to the cause of death. But in at least another 25 cases the taser could not be ruled out as the cause of death. However, keep in mind. Even when a person died from cancer it's hard to say that cigarette smoking caused the death.  However, scientists are quite aware that a 50,000 (or higher) Volt shock strong enough to cause pain and muscle paralysis can also cause death.   Think of the B+ supply in your transmitter.  When you work on the rig you de-energize and discharge the power supplies. Sure you may get shocked numerous times and not suffer and fatal consequences. I have had several thousand volts pass through my heart and I lived. But I also realize that next  time that same exact jolt might kill me.  The concern with tasers is that if police are going to routinely use them liberally in traffic stops and/or to gain compliance they should at  least be aware that the weapon is potentially lethal, it can kill. And we the people have a right to be very concerned as we may be the ones who wind up getting zapped.

Good job John, thanks for looking that up.

Seems the first several which I read were people high on illegal drugs, guess one should avoid illegal drug use.

I didn't know that being under the influence of drugs was a crime punishable by death. It's true that in quite a few cases the individuals had drugs (including alcohol) in their systems. And in many other cases there were non-drug factors, people with heart conditions, medical disorders, etc.   The key issue is not that this potentally lethal weapon should never be used, the key is when it is used. In some cases where someone is extremely violent and a direct threat to life the use may be justified and may be a better alternative to a bullet. On the other hand there are numerous cases where people have died soon after the use of this device.  In some cased drug stimulation may have contributed, in some cases existing illness may have contributed and in some cases whether or not the shock was a contribuing factor is undertermined. It is obviousl that the safety record of this device is still undetermined and that it may not be as safe and  non-lethal as some people may have though and/or as the manufacturer claims. Under these circumstances the use of this device should be limited. It should at the very least be used as a last resort where all other methods of restraint are impossible..   Above all it should be made clear that the taser is not a "safe" and "non lethal" device.

[kc2ifr]

Yup.........your right John............lets fire a few warning shots into their body.....thats much safer.
For Christs sake......I can walk up behind someone and go BOOO....and they have a heart attack and die......could happen and HAS happend so lets outlaw the freeken word BOOO.
This is getting really stupid!!!!!!
You do the crime..........you take your chances. This IS NOT a perfect world...no matter what u say John.......

[W3SLK]

kc2ifr said:

This is getting really stupid!!!!!!
You do the crime..........you take your chances. This IS NOT a perfect world...no matter what u say John.......

I couldn't have said that any better myself!

[W1UJR]

Above all it should be made clear that the taser is not a "safe" and "non lethal" device.

Ah, the true litmus test of a Liberal…the abdication of personal responsibility.

The certain belief that the government can does a better job taking care of you than you can.

A truer definition of insanity has never been given.

[John Holotko]

Yup.........your right John............lets fire a few warning shots into their body.....thats much safer.
For Christs sake......I can walk up behind someone and go BOOO....and they have a heart attack and die......could happen and HAS happend so lets outlaw the freeken word BOOO.
This is getting really stupid!!!!!!
You do the crime..........you take your chances. This IS NOT a perfect world...no matter what u say John.......

Thank you for making my point for me. Yes, theres nothing wrong with the word BOO in and of itself but people have a right to be concerned about when and where  and how you use  it. And if you kill someone yelling BOOO  you can be held liable. The word FIRE is not a bad word by itself.  Yelling it could sometimes save lives. It's a  matter of how/when/where we use it. You can't yell FIRE in a crowded theatre.  Get it ?

[John Holotko]

Above all it should be made clear that the taser is not a "safe" and "non lethal" device.

Ah, the true litmus test of a Liberal…the abdication of personal responsibility.

The certain belief that the government can does a better job taking care of you than you can.

A truer definition of insanity has never been given.

Ok Bruce, when all else fails make it a liberal versus conservative issue. I guess part of being a good conservative entails never questioning or critiquing how authority relates to "we the people".  Simply assume, if they use a certain degree of force against someone you don;t like or dissaprove of then it's okay, no questions asked.s. Sometimes I wonder if some of todays conservatives lived in pre- American revolution days how many of them would have been Tories, fully compliant and contented with British Law and arguing that England was well within it's rights to impose it's authority on the colonists in the way it deems fit.  Liberalism is far more in the spirit of America and what it was meant to be.  Somehow many of  us have lost touch with America's liberal heritage.Just remember, the founding forefathers were among America's greatest Liberal thinkers.

[John Holotko]

Do your part to limit tazer use.

Don't put yourself in a position where an Officer of the Law feels he needs to use it. If the lady in question had acted in a civil manner none of that would have happened. But it seems she acted according to her sorted past !!
I have no sympathy !

Yes, agreed!  Some people are stupid and challenge the cops.
All that leads to is physical harm and more legal problems.

What I'm talking about is the technique.  Let's look at a
hypothetical situation.... fantasy now.  Let's say that you
thought the cop stopping you was a hit man. You decided it
was better to run than get executed. [Or whatever scenario
reason you get zapped by mistake] Would you rather he used
pepper spray, or jumped on you with a judo hold - or used a
TASER?   The last thing I would want is a Taser, simply cuz of
the risk of death. I could survive a pepper spray or judo hold for
sure.

I think logic tells us that certain people, maybe even you, will
have a fatal heart attack after getting a dose of 50kv, even
current limited for 5 seconds... enough to knock you on your
ass. I've had only one dose of shock at 800Vdc that was enough
to knock me down. I cannot imagine going through it again at
the hands of a cop. Just imagine getting a big enough shock to
paralize you and knock you to the ground... gads!

I'm just saying that a "bad" person doesn't deserve to
be stopped with a technique that will cause X amount of people
to check out. They don't deserve that high a penalty for a
non-threatening "crime".  In the case presented here, the cop
did not "fear for his life" or was threatened with bodily harm.... that's
what I'm saying.

T

Excellent points. I agree.  The use of these devices is fairly new  and ss  people become aware that  there is a  probability  for the weapon to cause death and, as  that probability can be better determined will  likely play a larger role in how and when use of the device is considered acceptable.  A also agree, if I had a choice I'd much rather be pepper sprayed, wrestled, physically restrained,  cuffed, as opposed to being tased.