The Taser in Action

[k4kyv]

Maybe it wasn't so bad f(for her at least) after all. I am sure she already has her lawyers and doctors working on the case and likely she'll win enough money in court to live comfortable on for years to come. Matter of fact now that the cat is out of the bag and tpeople realize how easy it is to wind up getting tazed by agents of the state rest assured, you;re gonna have plenty of people out there just looking ton get tazed so they can file a law suit. Afterwards get a doctor to vouch the patient has a permanent heart condition, neurological damage or other compication from the electrocution and viola' watch the money flow.  

Why couldn't something like that happen to me?  I can't even successfully spill coffee on my crotch.

[John Holotko]

Well said Brent. And btw......John, Im glad your not the police chief in my area. All the cops would be in jail and the crooks and poeple like that broad in the video would have all the rights.

Aw, come on. You know that is not true. I don't want to see violent thugs hurting people any more than you do. And that broad in the video has nothing to do with it. Of course if she was driving with a suspended license and speeding in a broken car I don't want her on the road any more than you do. The question is, what did she do to deserve to be painfully electrocuted not once but twice ?? Even if you could justify the first tasing (which I can't) can you justifty the second tasing which occured while she was in agonizing pain because she didn't turn over on her back fast enough ?? The cops could have ticketed her, impounded the vehicle and prevented her from proceeding. Where the heck was she going to go ?? And I'll say it again, I find it apalling that a police departmnet full of strong healthy able bodies men  are incapable of restraining a 22 year old girl without the use of a potentially lethal electrocution device. Sounds pretty pathetiic if you ask me. I was attacked by a drunk and extremely violent and irate  woman and I has no problem retraining her without causing her physical pain or harm. And I'm not even a big strong tough cop. Tell me a whole police force of these guys can't non-violently restrain a 22 year old girl.  Puhhleeeze....  The other thing I find pathetic is that so many of us have come to accept this type of excessive use of force as merely par for the course.  Well, I've stated my opinions and I leave it at that. The rest is up to the courts and the people involved.  The courts will decide who was right or wrong and whether or not excessive force was used in this particular case.  At least nobody was killed.



\

[Jeff 'OGM]

But John, it wasn't a non-violent infraction.  She was resisting arrest and clearly more than willing to fight tooth and nail by swinging at the second officer as soon as he opened the passenger side door.  Nor was it an "entire police force" that was faced with arresting her, as you so inaccurately continue to assert.

As was mentioned in some of the commentary, both these officers have been tazed during training, so that they know what they're doing to a person when they use it.  You seem to think that the use of this non-lethal weapon is somehow worse than a fist fight, or a brawl, or a wrestling match in this type of police situation where some kind of force has to be used.  If they had wrestled her out of the car, and somehow even managed to not sustain any injuries to anyone, do you think that woman would have wailed and screamed any less?

But, I suppose, you'll continue to remain sympathetic to the woman's side of this whole thing, just because she was so verbose...  a trait I see you're fully capable of demonstrating in this thread 'til the end of time.

Jeff
KA1OGM

[W2INR]

I wonder if she was white would we have seen the same actions?

[Jack-KA3ZLR-]

Evening Gents,

 I'd Say Females especially More dominant Females White or Black under duress..Look out man... they'll Cuff yer butt...

[GEORGE/W2AMR]

I wonder if she was white would we have seen the same actions?

Actually It's pretty stupid action by the cops. They could have easily overpowered her without the taser. This type of behavior costs cities millions each year in law suits.

[kc2ifr]

Yup......IF she had had a gun and shot the cop....that would have served the cop right.......he should have never stopped her in the first place.

[Jack-KA3ZLR-]

I learned a Long time ago Don't argue or mouth off to a Cop.

[VE1IDX]

I wonder if she was white would we have seen the same actions?

From whom? The "racist" cops or the "don't you white boys pick on me" black lady. :?

[John Holotko]

But John, it wasn't a non-violent infraction.  She was resisting arrest and clearly more than willing to fight tooth and nail by swinging at the second officer as soon as he opened the passenger side door.  Nor was it an "entire police force" that was faced with arresting her, as you so inaccurately continue to assert.

Yeah, I'll bet if she made contact she would have laid both cops out flat. Then she would have probably gone on to deck the entire police department and then she'd probably push over a few building and bend a few iron bars with her bare hands just for laughs.  I hears after she was arrested she picked up a few police cars and threw them into the middle of the Atlantic ocean.

If you feel the tasing was appropriate police action you are entitled to your views.  I felt there was something very wrong with what I saw.

As was mentioned in some of the commentary, both these officers have been tazed during training, so that they know what they're doing to a person when they use it

Really ??  I assume you are an AM'er and you work with high voltages from time to time. Do you routinely put your hands, arms or other body parts across the B+ plate supplies when it's fully energized ?? Do you know what is going to happen to your body each and every time you accidentally electrocute yourself (I hope you don't). You may be harmlessly shocked a dozen tiimes but that thirteenth shock may be the one that kills. People have heart conditions and other conditions. Those police have absolutely no idea what is going to happen to a person when they apply 50,000 volts from a taser to a persons body. The only thing they do know is that they are about to shock a human being. with high voltage. What the result will be is unknown to them.

.  You seem to think that the use of this non-lethal weapon is somehow worse than a fist fight, or a brawl, or a wrestling match in this type of police situation where some kind of force has to be used.

First of all the taser is not a non-lethal weapon. If you think it is then tell that to the family members of people who have died from being tased. I have been in fistfights, brawls and wrestled with people  but I have never been tased. Frankly I would much rather get into a brawl or a wrestling matched then to be tased.  The idea of being zapped with a paralyzing and extremely painful jolt of electricity doesn't set well with me. Any voltage high enough to inflict that level of muscular paralysis and pain also has the potential to kill.
It is not a safe weapon. weapon. In a brawl I might get a bloody lip, a broken nose, or a few teeth knocked out. Or I might bust some ass. When I am zapped with 50,000 volts I can't be sure  what the outcome will be.
 

  If they had wrestled her out of the car, and somehow even managed to not sustain any injuries to anyone, do you think that woman would have wailed and screamed any less?
[/quote[

What difference does it make ? If two big strong cops cannot restrain a 22 year old woman without applying lethal or potentially lethal force then there is something wrong with them. If I am capable of restrainign someone by myself then so could they. A fireman friend of mine has on a couple of occaisions restrained irate civilians who may have hurt themselves and others and  without hurting them. Are you telling me a fireman can do this but a trained police officer cannot ?

But, I suppose, you'll continue to remain sympathetic to the woman's side of this whole thing, just because she was so verbose...  a trait I see you're fully capable of demonstrating in this thread 'til the end of time.

It has nothing to do with her being verbose. I think she was stupid to cop an attitude against the cops to begin with.  had she left her attitude home she probably would have avoided the whole mess. At the same time I think it was absurd that she had to be  tased twice.

[W3LSN]

I guess I can agree to disagree with several of you since we're sticking to our guns, so to speak. The issues here though are larger than a mouthy and belligerent 22-y.o. black female. The bottom line is that the woman was unarmed, yet she was shot twice by police with a weapon mostly for mouthing off, getting emotional as women often do, and taking a few swings at the cops who tried and failed to pull her from the car, not for puttng their lives in jeopardy. This is a typical situation that seems to have become all too routine. Yes, the law called for her to be stopped for speeding and the technical violations. She probably knew she'd be arrested for the suspended license, and got emotional. I can think of several scenarios that could have defused the situation without pulling a weapon on her.

I'll repeat again that tasers were justified as being a non-lethal alternative to the bullet. However it seems that in many of the cases where tasers are used, the person tazed is unarmed, uncooperative, and it is used to create an "attitude adjustment".  In my mind that qualifies as torture.

The public was told that tasers would be deployed in situations where a gun might ordinarily be used because it would save lives. Apparently the politicans in at least one state are having second thoughts about the safety record of tasers, and it's having an adverse effect on taser stock as the death toll climbs.

http://rense.com/general67/taser.htm


A taser should be used when somebody's life is in jeopardy. Two male police officers feeling threatened by a 22-year old female armed only with a cell phone is a pretty sad commentary on their manhood.

73,
Jim WA2AJM

[John Holotko]

I guess I can agree to disagree with several of you since we're sticking to our guns, so to speak.
http://rense.com/general67/taser.htm


A taser should be used when somebody's life is in jeopardy. Two male police officers feeling threatened by a 22-year old female armed only with a cell phone is a pretty sad commentary on their manhood.

73,
Jim WA2AJM

Interesting article. Policiticans, cops, governmental and private law enforcement agencies are just as gullible in believing corporate propaganda as the general public and, corporations apply most  of the same (and often deceptive) marketing techniques when marketing to law enforcement as to the general populus. Clearly cops have bought the "effective, safe and non-lethal" claims of the taser companies. This not only influcences their decision to buy and equip officers with these devices but it also influences how these devices are used. If  you belive the device is safe and non-lethal you are  more likely to use it in more situations, then end result, more civilians end up getting tased  even for such non-violent offences as pulling away from an officer, being too outspoken or non cooperative, being high, or simply not responding to commands fast enough.  Even cops who tase each other as part of training belieiving that the device is 100% safe and will have no adverse effects. Corporate marketing strategy is a very powerful thing and dramatically effects our lives right down to whether or not we might wind up tased.
Unfortunately it has taken several deaths to wake politicians up to reality that the claims of taser manufacturers as "safe, effectiver, non-lethal" might be somewhat dubious.

[VE1IDX]

As for the dangers of tasers,they are dangerous in exceptional circumstances.What about pepper spray? Perhaps it should be bannd as well.It MIGHT unknowingly be used on a person that has asthma causing that person to go into respiratory arrest and die.There will always be exceptional hidden circumstances and sometime somebody will be affected.The real answer is that people have to be responsible for their own actions that may lead to some form of restraint action taken against them.This case with the woman being stopped and tased is a case of damed if they do and dammed if they don't for the cops.What if they did wrestle her out of the vehicle and handcuff her? I can just see her actions and hear her now screaming brutality."Two big cops roughed me up and now I want to file charges!!" She was warned SEVERAL times.If you want respect then you have to show respect.She showed none from the start.

[John Holotko]

As for the dangers of tasers,they are dangerous in exceptional circumstances.What about pepper spray? Perhaps it should be bannd as well.It MIGHT unknowingly be used on a person that has asthma causing that person to go into respiratory arrest and die.There will always be exceptional hidden circumstances and sometime somebody will be affected.The real answer is that people have to be responsible for their own actions that may lead to some form of restraint action taken against them.This case with the woman being stopped and tased is a case of damed if they do and dammed if they don't for the cops.What if they did wrestle her out of the vehicle and handcuff her? I can just see her actions and hear her now screaming brutality."Two big cops roughed me up and now I want to file charges!!" She was warned SEVERAL times.If you want respect then you have to show respect.She showed none from the start.

Just for  the record I have great respect for the job that police have on their hands and, I understand that when dealing with the public the policeman is often caught between a rock and a hard place, no matter  what action he/she takes somebody is going to come down on him. I also respect the fact that most police use patient and restraint when dealing with the public. Most cops are very professional. Matter of fact with my hot temper I doubt I would be able to show the degree of patience and constraint that many police show on a daily basis.

IHowever in this incident I fail to accept the notion that a 22 year old woman could not be removed from a vehicle without resorting to the use of potentially lethal force. If this and other incidents where unarmed civilians have been tased (and in some instances died) is proper police protocol then I think the public should be quite concerned.

[wa1knx]

Not having seen the video, I was with the cops from the discussion. having
seen the tape, way-too-much-too-quick for that girl, she was on the phone. two warnings to a slightly confused girl, on a cell phone and zapp.

talked to a cop friend, they handled it really bad he said on what I told
him I saw.  remember what someone said on this. they "learned" to
do what the cops say.   She just learned it. People don't like being pushed around. you have to learn your cop lesson. and make justice *after* an
incident if your wronged!

I had a similar incident when in my twenties.  after "learning" my
lesson, I got the damn cop back  later. I  went to the chief and told
all. I said watch this guy. a few more bad complaints came in, and
out he went off the force.

back to the incident, there wasn't bad mouth before the
zapp. I've seen much more taken by cops watching the cops shows
before using force like that. BUT  I agree, she should have been taken
in.  Another squad probably would have got the job done w/o
the taser.

[John Holotko]

As for the dangers of tasers,they are dangerous in exceptional circumstances.What about pepper spray? Perhaps it should be bannd as well.It MIGHT unknowingly be used on a person that has asthma causing that person to go into respiratory arrest and die.There will always be exceptional hidden circumstances and sometime somebody will be affected.The real answer is that people have to be responsible for their own actions that may lead to some form of restraint action taken against them.

That is the precise question.  Who defines or informs the public what  level of  "being responsible" will assure them that they won't  have potentially lethal force applied to them by law enforcement.  Or, on the other hand what level of irresponsibnility on the part of a civilian  will warrant a public servant "restrain" them. And, what will be the method or restraint. The woman in that  video could have been like many other Americans who have been tased, very likely frightened, upset, perhaps acting a bit irrational, and probably quite unaware that "restraint" would come swiftly in the form of 50,0000 volts applied to them. It still leaves a valid question that cannot be simply dismissed regarding what level of restraint  is acceptable and in what situations.    people are now becoming aware that devices such as the taser are indeed not as safe, effective and non-lethal as their manufacturers claimed.  It is inevitable that they now want answers as  to what constitutes acceptable use of the device and what does not.

[wb1aij]

[And you wonder why you New Yorkers have a senator like "Shrillary Clinton"  You deserve her.

I found those videos to be extremely disturbing and downright sickening, . The behavior of those cops is downright excessive and inexcuseable.

[Glenn K2KL]

What does an incident that took place in Florida have to do with a New York senator?

[And you wonder why you New Yorkers have a senator like "Shrillary Clinton"  You deserve her.

I found those videos to be extremely disturbing and downright sickening, . The behavior of those cops is downright excessive and inexcuseable.

[John Holotko]

What does an incident that took place in Florida have to do with a New York senator?

I too find the connection quite puzzling...

[Jack-KA3ZLR-]

Don't argue with them, they're on edge and everyone is Suspect Now.

[W1UJR]

[Jeff 'OGM]

I do agree that the taser is probably not the best our current technology can do in the realm of "non-lethal" methods of getting suspects under police control.  I also agree that 50kv is scary, but at what level of current?  Static electricity shocks, the kind you get during dry weather, are thousands of volts, too...  Nonetheless, as far as the side issue of whether tasers are "good" or "bad" I'd tend to weigh in on the side of "bad", in that they're sold by and operated by people who haven't got a clue (other than getting their sample tazing during training).

The other side issue of what's behind the woman's incredibly stupid behavior from the start is, to me, hardly worth getting into.  She was the kind of person in a traffic stop that makes police nervous and wary.  The view of police is that any traffic stop can easily be their last.  Anything but calm cooperation is a potential threat for any police officer.

There are four audio items on the page that's linked at the beginning of the thread, "Using his baton", "physically forcing driver out of SUV", "using pepper spray", and "getting in SUV to handcuff driver".  These each deal with the explanations behind not using those options, and help to further explain why the officers did what they did.  Their training is what produced the results of the traffic stop, it seems to me, and not just some dumbell "seat of the pants" decision making on their parts during this whole thing.

I think the one issue that I can side with the suspect, though, after viewing the videos a couple more times is the SECOND tasing.  It appears to me that at the point where the officer yelled at her to turn over (she was on the ground at this point), or he'd taze her again, she may very well have been unable to get her muscles to do anything at all, never mind turn over.  The effects of electric shock can easily paralyze a person for several minutes, and I wouldn't be surprised if she was in that condition after the first taser shot.

Also, it's interesting to pay attention to the demeanor of the two officers after the second taser shot.  I'd say they were very nervous about the effect it had on her, and how long this continued.  It says to me that, at the outset, the officers were doing what they were trained to do, but then after the second shot and the effect it had on the woman, they've probably spent many hours since this incident (it happened almost a year ago) wondering what the hell went wrong, if everything they were told in training is true, and so forth.

After having said all that, however, I'm still on the side of the police in this incident.  It never would have gone where it did if the woman had simply cooperated with the inevitable, since she obviously knew she was driving with a suspended license from the start.

Jeff
KA1OGM

[wa1knx]

tasing, a right response, but not to this one. if your patroling
mainly black areas, you best know them.  the girl was, oh how do
I say this. Black women have a sing-song way of communicating,
its fast and passes a lot of info. that IS what she was doing on the
cell phone.   white cops expect drawn guns, drugs, or maybe women getting stock quotes on their phone - who instantly know what cops
want like martha stewart  -

it might have been her first pullover. if so, how'd you like it with
a shouting cop with a gun in your face in 10 seconds, while having
a conversation on the phone.  like gary said, gee, what if she was
white? btw those tasers are sold up to 600kv.  I noticed that at a gun show. I could hear the zapping across a huge room.

got a lot of cop friends, don't like the bad ones that hurt their rep. . .

[W3LSN]

Echoing John's comments, I have great respect for those who choose to make a career in public service. I simply have major issues with how police academies now train their cops.

Our next door neighbor was the police chief when I was growing up and he was a cop for nearly 40-years when he retired. He was a beat cop for many years before worked his way up the ladder into an administrative position. I later asked him how many times in his career he had to use his gun when arresting people. He told me he never even had to take it out of the holtster! Not even once. This was in a sizeable city in New Jersey.

73,
Jim WA2AJM

[John Holotko]

After having said all that, however, I'm still on the side of the police in this incident.  It never would have gone where it did if the woman had simply cooperated with the inevitable, since she obviously knew she was driving with a suspended license from the start.
Jeff
KA1OGM

I've already made my case on what I think about the tasings so I won't go there again. But I do wonder how many people are driving with suspended licenses just in order to get to work and out of fear of  loosing their jobs. Sure, it's no excuse but think how many people end up working jobs that are very far from home,. they are under extreme pressure to get in on time, public transportation stinks in many areas, jobs are not easy to come by. I'll bet on any given rush hour there are plenty of people driving with suspended licenses.