Heavy Metal??

[W2PFY]

One of the heaviest transmitters that was on one year in the HMC   IIRC was located somewhere in Ohio that used a pair of 750TL's or TH's and weighed over 4000 pounds. The operator only used one of the big final tubes as I recall. I didn't hear it but it was in one of the reports. Does anyone remember that person call etc? I think it was part of a driver system for a Voice Of America transmitter?

My Westinghouse MW-2 may come in at 2000 pounds?( The weight of this transmitter varies depending on how many beers I have had while describing it to someone) I think I had it up to 3500 pounds at one point   As far as the most tubes in a transmitter but not in the Heavy Metal, was a Navy transmitter that was owned by WA2CYT and had about 300, yes three hundred tubes in it!

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

The AM Transmitter Rally was essentially what the Heavy Metal Rally should have been (and could be).

No, not at all - but it certainly clears things up!  

The Heavy Metal Rally is what Bill/KD0HG thought it should be.

The AM Transmitter Rally is what you thought it should be.

Which is fine, you created an event that was also successful initially and enjoyed by many. But to imply Bill's event is wrong somehow because "everyone had a shot at winning" in yours and not his is really where the problem lies. Bill didn't intend the event to be all about winning or everything to everyone, simply to highlight big tube rigs and get them back on the air while creating a lot of AM activity in the process. It wasn't about sub groups or division of AM other than in the minds of people predisposed to think that way. There were increasing numbers of Flex radios and Class E users on the air but less and less heard from the big rigs. Bill wanted to encourage more of the latter, not discourage the former. You'd have to be looking for trouble to interpret it any other way.

And the event was a huge success for several years until the 'tinkering' began. True, while any and all AM stations were welcome to take part, the event was clearly designed to promote the operation of big plate-modulated rigs. Hence the name *and* description. The "exclusion" of smaller transmitters from participating is a study in bovine scatology at its finest. It never existed other than perhaps in the minds of a few who wanted to discourage participation.

I recall from our past discussions that you're not terribly fond of tube gear(inefficient, distortion, etc) which is fine - your event addressed what you perceived as a need for change. Suggesting that someone else should 'improve' (change) their event to suit this view and perhaps the view of a few others is not the way to address it in my opinion. Reminds me too much of our public schools these days doing away with honor rolls and other awards for hard work and excellence so someone's feelings won't potentially get hurt.

It's sad that we focus so much energy on such petty things instead of simply enjoying our time on the air. Take part if you want, avoid it if you don't. Seems simple enough. We should be looking at additional events to bring attention to more aspects of AM, not tearing down the ones we aren't interested in.

So while we can hopefully at least agree to disagree Steve, I and many others do appreciate the efforts you have made with your AM event. It got off to a great start the first few years. I think if you can find a weekend for it and keep it there you'll see participation pick back up. Was lucky enough to have worked the first 2-3 from Steve/K4HX's station which made it that much more fun. Just need to get things back online here at the new place.

Pete - that pretty little transmitter is a pre-war Collins 30J. Considered by some to be the best looking transmitter they made. About the size of the later 30K. Have only seen one in the flesh, so to speak. It was missing some critical parts so I passed on it. They didn't make many, only a handful are accounted for last I knew and only 2-3 are complete.

[steve_qix]

The AM Transmitter Rally was essentially what the Heavy Metal Rally should have been (and could be).

No, not at all - but it certainly clears things up!  

The Heavy Metal Rally is what Bill/KD0HG thought it should be.

The AM Transmitter Rally is what you thought it should be.

Which is fine, you created an event that was also successful initially and enjoyed by many. But to imply Bill's event is wrong somehow because "everyone had a shot at winning" in yours and not his is really where the problem lies. Bill didn't intend the event to be all about winning or everything to everyone, simply to highlight big tube rigs and get them back on the air while creating a lot of AM activity in the process. It wasn't about sub groups or division of AM other than in the minds of people predisposed to think that way. There were increasing numbers of Flex radios and Class E users on the air but less and less heard from the big rigs. Bill wanted to encourage more of the latter, not discourage the former. You'd have to be looking for trouble to interpret it any other way.

And the event was a huge success for several years until the 'tinkering' began. True, while any and all AM stations were welcome to take part, the event was clearly designed to promote the operation of big plate-modulated rigs. Hence the name *and* description. The "exclusion" of smaller transmitters from participating is a study in bovine scatology at its finest. It never existed other than perhaps in the minds of a few who wanted to discourage participation.

As you said, the participation was very good until the rule "tinkering" began (aka "tube" points).

I recall from our past discussions that you're not terribly fond of tube gear(inefficient, distortion, etc) which is fine - your event addressed what you perceived as a need for change.

PLEASE do not mis-quote me or suggest that said something I just did not say and then publish this as if I did.  The above statement is completely incorrect.

I *never* said in any way that I am not fond of tube gear.  Get real.  I've recently published some tube designs and am working with 2 amateurs on tube designs right now.  What I actually did say is that we need to have to have equipment and designs that are home brew-able, using components that you can actually get at reasonable prices, and that works really well.

Just for the record, I have designed much more tube gear than solid state gear - remember, I have been around for a very long time and my design experience pre-dates the existence of power MOSFETs.  It is possible to build tube gear that will perform as well as a class E transmitter, but it is extremely complex and hard to implement - much harder to implement in tubes than in solid state which is why only 2 people other than myself have ever implemented such transmitters on ham radio -even though the designs are published.

It would be accurate to say that I don't like poor designs.

Suggesting that someone else should 'improve' (change) their event to suit this view and perhaps the view of a few others is not the way to address it in my opinion. Reminds me too much of our public schools these days doing away with honor rolls and other awards for hard work and excellence so someone's feelings won't potentially get hurt.

Wow, where did THAT come from?  Hope you're not attempting to quote me again, because I never said any of that nor do I agree with any of this either.

The post-rule tinkering HMR is exclusionary.  That is my objection.  It was not exclusionary prior to the rule tinkering, other than you had to run power.  Heavy Metal.  That was fine - the event defined itself.  If the event were called the "Plate Modulated Tube Transmitter Rally", I and many others who obviously voted with their feet and stopped participating would not have any objection.  It would be like holding a CW event, but then saying that you had to use a straight key.

It's sad that we focus so much energy on such petty things instead of simply enjoying our time on the air. Take part if you want, avoid it if you don't. Seems simple enough. We should be looking at additional events to bring attention to more aspects of AM, not tearing down the ones we aren't interested in.

Hmmm.. I don't see this as positive.  More AM events to splinter the already small group that the AM community really is.  I don't think see this as good.

So while we can hopefully at least agree to disagree Steve, I and many others do appreciate the efforts you have made with your AM event. It got off to a great start the first few years. I think if you can find a weekend for it and keep it there you'll see participation pick back up. Was lucky enough to have worked the first 2-3 from Steve/K4HX's station which made it that much more fun. Just need to get things back online here at the new place.

I would like to see the HMR super-successful.  Perhaps make a new event that clearly describes the plate modulated tube rig event and leaves heavy metal to be what it is - heavy and metal.

The only actual disagreement we may have is that I don't think more events are good.  I think fewer events are good because it makes them  1) special, and  2) makes them bigger.

I don't like splintering or fragmentation.  It is a weaker position.

Christmas is great because it's once a year.  If we had it every month, it would quickly lose its shine.  A nice once-a-year AM event is something to look forward to - plan for, etc.  Get everyone involved.  Talk it up.  Fair rules, equal opportunity (which is not equal outcome).  Make it great.

Regards,

Steve

[K1JJ]

One of the heaviest transmitters that was on one year in the HMC   IIRC was located somewhere in Ohio that used a pair of 750TL's or TH's and weighed over 4000 pounds. The operator only used one of the big final tubes as I recall. I didn't hear it but it was in one of the reports. Does anyone remember that person call etc? I think it was part of a driver system for a Voice Of America transmitter?

Hi Terry -

You may be thinking of the Collins 3-bay   231D-20. It ran a pair of 750 TLs plate modulated by a pair of 450TLs.  I owned and ran this transmitter back in 1973. It was called a Collins TDH-5 too.  Just the RF cabinet empty weighed 750 pounds, so 4,000 pounds total is reasonable.

http://www.transmitter.be/col-231d20.html

As for homebrew TUBE PDM rigs, I can only remember three people who built and ran them... Steve QIX's 450TL and sweep tube rigs, Larry NE1S's 4-400rig, and my three PDM rigs: A pair if 4-1000As PDM'd by a 3CX-2500, a pair of 4-1000As X a pair and my little dual quads (4) 4D32s X (4) 6LF6s.   The 4D32 PDM rig is still hooked up and working at an easy 500 watts out. It's one of my favorite rigs.

There may be some others who built PDM tube rigs, but dunno.

Yes, a tube PDM rig is much harder to get perfection in the audio compared to a solid state rig. To modulate the last negative 5% or so without distortion is the challenge.

T

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Steve - this is quickly turning into a conversation we've had in person numerous times and has really passed the point of serving any useful purpose here. It would've been easier and better to wait until the next AM Dinner or whenever to go through it again. I will clarify a few things simply so as not to leave folks with any wrong impressions of your position on AM events, activity, or anything else.

First - I intentionally didn't attempt to quote you because I can't remember the exact words. Numerous times we've discussed the tubes vs FETs, plate modulation vs Class E, and so on. I recall one particular time at Hopkinton during the W1E operating event when you brought a Super Pro you had converted to solid state. Another time we were discussing deficiencies in the design of the KW-1. I also remember several chats at NEAR-Fest and the AM Dinner about starting an event to Highlight (not single out) Class E to bring more attention to it and get more folks to give it a try, which is what Bill tried to do for large tube transmitters via the HMR. While I know you have done more than many/most with tubes and tube gear and you certainly forget more in a night than I'll ever know about this stuff (seriously), most times we've discussed it it's gotten around to a matter of inefficiency, expense, distortion, transformers needed, etc with respect to tube gear. All of which may be true, but this is what has given me the impression that you're not terribly fond of tube gear. Not that you never were, just not anymore. My mistake apparently.

Now it's passed the point of useful discussion and is more a matter of personal opinion. You prefer a one-size-fits-all AM event, I'm fine with highlighting/celebrating/spotlighting/whatever different aspects of AM through multiple events. Not weekly or even monthly, but I see it as more than just an opportunity for us to get on the air and have fun once a year. Rather than 'splintering', I see it as a chance to attract new blood, fresh talent to a mode of amateur radio that has been ignored and maligned over the years, a mode we happen to both enjoy and agree should be promoted and preserved. Not everyone will take to tube gear, or Class E, or SDR, or a manufactured plastic set. Yet in those categories lies something for pretty much everyone interested beyond the party line chit-chat aspect of ham radio. An event can promote or highlight a particular aspect of AM without excluding any others. I think that was Bill's intention if his original description is any indication. To encourage, not exclude. IIRC, there were several other 'clarifications' before tube points came along. The latter was apparently an attempt to re-focus the event to its original intent.

I acknowledge and appreciate all you've done for and contributed to the AM community, Steve. As much fun as the AM Transmitter Rally has been in the past, you've done far, far more through Class E, REA monitors, and apparently tube gear designs that predate my being licensed. I'm certain that you have nothing but the best of intentions for the mode and hobby. And I look forward to the opportunity to bat this around with you again in person, where it should've been done in the first place. Too much gets lost in translation online, and clearly it's too easy to lose the original point in attempting to review or recall past events.

Best wishes to you and the members of 'fone for a safe and happy 2017. 

[K1JJ]

Making a classic Old Buzzard AM transmission in a big roundtable...  

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

...with 50 watts at night....

[WD8BIL]

.....and telephone audio.......

[W3RSW]

And with the phone receiver upside down as the Mike.
Who's the kid in the pix behind George, his son?

[W2PFY]

You may be thinking of the Collins 3-bay   231D-20. It ran a pair of 750 TLs plate modulated by a pair of 450TLs.  I owned and ran this transmitter back in 1973. It was called a Collins TDH-5 too.  Just the RF cabinet empty weighed 750 pounds, so 4,000 pounds total is reasonable.

Hey JJ,

Maybe it was? That was about 14 years ago.

Now if you ran that at full bore in a dummy load, how may amps at single phase did it require or do you have three phase?  Everyone with transmitters like that used a dummy loads in those days Did you have all the auto tune stuff going and whatever happen to it? So many great transmitters like that ended up on the scrap heap and if hams of the day got their hands on them probably parted them out. It's really hard to give these big old transmitters a home. I have put out some feelers out on my Westinghouse and you get, too much to move, too big, no room, the wife, the floor, my back and the list goes on. You just cannot fall in love with old iron and when it come to newer SDR stuff, people will even care less because technology will obsolete them even faster. (Nothing against SDR's, just part of my rant)     

[VE3AJM]

One of the heaviest transmitters that was on one year in the HMC   IIRC was located somewhere in Ohio that used a pair of 750TL's or TH's and weighed over 4000 pounds. The operator only used one of the big final tubes as I recall. I didn't hear it but it was in one of the reports. Does anyone remember that person call etc? I think it was part of a driver system for a Voice Of America transmitter?

My Westinghouse MW-2 may come in at 2000 pounds?( The weight of this transmitter varies depending on how many beers I have had while describing it to someone) I think I had it up to 3500 pounds at one point   As far as the most tubes in a transmitter but not in the Heavy Metal, was a Navy transmitter that was owned by WA2CYT and had about 300, yes three hundred tubes in it!

The fellow near Cincinnati Ohio is Bill, WA8LXJ who worked for VOA. He ran the Collins 231D. Not to be confused with farmer Bob, W8LXJ who also lives in southern Ohio.

Hes still around just not active on AM right now.

Al

[W2PFY]

Thanks Al, I wonder of he still has it? K1JJ as you may have seen also had one at around 1973.  I wonder what happen to that transmitter?

Leaving for the camp today. will be on 160 tonight from 7 PM eastern on 1.885. Maybe some of you will tune in and join? This east coast gathering runs from about 7 PM to 11 PM or who ever conks out last..........

de w2pfy........

[Steve - K4HX]

Is there a link to the "tube" rules for HMR? I'm not recalling such a thing. And if there were such a thing, is there any reason why those with tube rigs(the vast majority of participants) would stop participating because of "tube rules"?

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Is there a link to the "tube" rules for HMR? I'm not recalling such a thing. And if there were such a thing, is there any reason why those with tube rigs(the vast majority of participants) would stop participating because of "tube rules"?

I'm not going to go back through all the posts here for the reference "tube" rules, but this was posted on the ER web site back in 2008:

http://web.archive.org/web/20081218105630/http://www.ermag.com/forum/thread.cfm?TID=213

[K1JJ]

There was a guy who sold mil surplus in Milford who had about FIVE of these rigs. He had only the RF bays. The rest was just "too much" with 3-phase, etc.  I originally had about six of the 750TL tubes, but one by one the fils opened due to the tungsten shortage in WWII. They were very fragile, even just sitting on a shelf.

I eventually modified my TDH-5 into oblivion and Tim got the RF tuner deck, a massive set of variable caps and inductors, remote controlled.  I didn't really know what I had... should have kept it around, but it was over 7' high and made ceiling clearance a problem.

Yep, the Bush picture talking into the telephone receiver is a classic - and was a spoof on the one-way transmissions we all make with no way of knowing (or caring) if the other end even hears us - with no way to interrupt us... :-)

T

Below:

2) Unidentified ham finds 750TL at flea mkt

3) Breeder in northern NY who loves Springer Spaniels - they all live in her house.

[W2PFY]

Found this on the web. I guess my memory was somewhat correct.. From around Feb 2011.

[quoteWA3VJB:
I used to work a guy who was among the former engineers at the Bethany, Ohio VOA site.  Bill, WA8LXJ. Been about ten years now since I've heard him on. But he had a lot of great stories from working there.

About 20 years ago, somehow he obtained as "junk" one of the VOA site's point-to-point transmitters, a Collins 231D used as an "interagency transmitter."  

Described it as a 3-cabinet rig, and 3-30Mc autotune, wow.
(see page 74 of the 1952 Handbook for a picture)

The card I have on him shows a pair of 450TL modulating a pair of 750TL, and he got it out of there and rebuilt it. I worked him on 80M with the thing and it sounded excellent. I also show a pair of 833A modulating a pair of 450TL, so he may have moved things around a little as part of dropping it from 3-phase to single for home use.][/quote]