Very limited space antenna

[K6JEK]

Anyone have a small vertical or some such they actually like?

I'm spending a lot of time away from the home QTH at a condo in San Francisco near the new grand kid, Alex, the most wonderful baby. It's on a hill with a dead on view of Sutro tower, that big antenna in SF. But me? I've got nothing. I have a tiny amount of roof area I'd guess 20' x 20'.  The only thing I can figure is maybe a vertical. It would have to be a shortened one with some sort of ground plane. Any of you actually using something worth considering. 75M is a about all I care about. 40 would be nice.

I trust you jokers more than eHam reviews.

[KL7OF]

Minooka special???  I have an friend that lives on a postage stamp lot and he really has a nice signal on 75 and 160 with that antenna..He says it works on 40 altho I haven't heard him on that band....He uses another antenna for receive as the minooka is a noisy rx vertical...Good Luck

[K6JEK]

Minooka special???  I have an friend that lives on a postage stamp lot and he really has a nice signal on 75 and 160 with that antenna..He says it works on 40 altho I haven't heard him on that band....He uses another antenna for receive as the minooka is a noisy rx vertical...Good Luck

I'd never heard of the Minooka special. Looks kind of interesting.  Here's a better shot of view out the window:

[wa3dsp]

I looked at the details on the Minoka Special and it looks like the overall length can vary greatly so you need to find out just how long (or high) the antenna was that gave a good 75 meter signal. Apparently some are 80-100 feet high. This is no magic to this if there was we would all be running 10 foot long 75 meter antennas. Short antennas below 40 meters are always a compromise. It also shows a radial system which most verticals need. There is no problem making a short antenna that looks good to the transmitter but how much energy actually makes it to the ether is another story!

If you want a good 80-10 vertical the Butternut is hard to beat. I have had one up for 23 years with little maintenance. It works OK on 75 but no where near as good as a full length dipole. 40 and above it works very well. Mine is ground mounted with about 12 radials. It is a lot more expensive than when I bought it back in 1990. I think I paid around $150 or so. It is not $400 or more. I believe it is about 26 feet tall.

http://www.pi4cc.nl/link/bc.htm

[VK7ZL]

This came from the VK/ZL QRP group, it might suit your needs.

Portable operators might wish to check out this end-fed I've been working on.

It covers 40/20/10m. A broadband transformer (rather than an adjustable
L-match) provides satisfactory 'no-tune' operation on the above three bands.

It's a full sized half wave on 20m and a loaded half wave on 40m. Total length
approx 12m. All supported by a 9m squid pole.

A description is at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV3Cj2J3T20

20m conditions have been good to North America lately in the mornings.

73, Peter VK3YE


Bob  VK7ZL

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Why do you just try to drop a wire down the side of the building.

A Google search on "apartment amateur antenna" turned up lots of great info:
https://www.google.com/search?q=apartment+amateur+antenna&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[K6JEK]

Here I am considering antennas that I long ago gave up on. I remember when I was a novice discovering that an inverted V strung up on my parent's television mast using salvaged wire worked terrifically better than the Mosley trap vertical I'd put in the backyard. For awhile I even owned an Isotron. I never could make that do anything although others have claimed to. I still own a Gap vertical maybe I'll give it a shot. It's not the Titan which Clark, at least, gets good results from. It's the Challenger.

Here's the source of all the trouble:

[WD5JKO]

Jon,

    I see three options, and one of them is kind of far fetched:

1.) Use a sling shot to shoot a wire with a claw on it to that big tower in the distance. 
2.) Make an insulated loop on the roof, 20' X 20', and run down OWL into a tuner on the balcony. Should work down to 40m, maybe lower..
3.) Run Voice over IP with a remote transmitter at your home QTH...likely the best option if you have equipment already at home capable of being connected this way.

Good Luck,
Jim
WD5JKO

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I set up a Challenger in the back yard several years ago. Sucked on 80; worked OK on 40 and 20; wouldn't load on 15; never tried it on 10 or the WARC bands.

[KK4YY]

An antenna that performs well looks to be only your first problem. The other condo owners and nearby homeowners will be your next problem as soon as you go key down and their electronic devices start freaking out. It only takes one complaint from another condo owner to bring your ops to an end.

My solution would be to use a Hamstick worked against the railing in the photo. A small clamp-on bracket can be made that will support the stick and ground to the railing. It should work as well as it would on a car, perhaps better, as it's well above the lossy Earth. A Hamstick is very inexpensive and has a decent stealth factor. To work other bands just swap sticks.

Also, you might not want to describe your installation on the air as AM transmissions can demodulate with amazing clarity in an RFI situation. Better to say you're parked in your car in the area and let them go look for you on the street. Might be fun to watch!

As always, be mindful of RF exposure when installing any antenna where people may be present. Make the area near the antenna "off limits" when transmitting.

[K6JEK]

An antenna that performs well looks to be only your first problem. The other condo owners and nearby homeowners will be your next problem as soon as you go key down and their electronic devices start freaking out. It only takes one complaint from another condo owner to bring your ops to an end.

My solution would be to use a Hamstick worked against the railing in the photo. A small clamp-on bracket can be made that will support the stick and ground to the railing. It should work as well as it would on a car, perhaps better, as it's well above the lossy Earth. A Hamstick is very inexpensive and has a decent stealth factor. To work other bands just swap sticks.

Also, you might not want to describe your installation on the air as AM transmissions can demodulate with amazing clarity in an RFI situation. Better to say you're parked in your car in the area and let them go look for you on the street. Might be fun to watch!

As always, be mindful of RF exposure when installing any antenna where people may be present. Make the area near the antenna "off limits" when transmitting.

This approach has the added feature of being easy to do. I'm also pursuing the idea of operating the home station remotely.

[VE3LYX]

I have a 20M vertical homebrew made from copper pipe (used , I am cheap) it is a very very good antenna. I can work the world on it. This was a difficult QTH before. My previous was an A3 cushcraft moved here from former QTH . Never had one contact since coming here with it. After a couple of years I sold it. But never mind worrying about a comparison. Lets just stick to the facts.
On 20M I can work the world. Usually first or second call even on a DX pileup. Those who have worked me will vouch for its ability. Last three calls were Modova, Deutschland (Germany ) and Wales. Antenna is fairly broadband and doesnt require retuning . I generaly operate between 14.17 to 14.2 without retuning. I am running barefoot. Kenwood TS830S.  I believe there is a pic of the antenna on QRZ under my call.
This is exactly how I made it.
From the auto wreckers I got a 94 Dodge Ram antenna (needed the fender and didnt want to waste the antenna. ) I fastened the antenna to a copper cap for 3/4 inch copper tubing. I put a soup can lid under the antenna held on by the same bolt. (Sprays the signal? I dont know , just did it this way) I did the calculations and I believe it was 17ft 6 inches total length so I made up the difference in 3/4 copper tubing.
Next I took a hardwood dowel 1 3/4 diameter and machined it in my lathe so a couple of inches slipped inside the bottom of the 3/4 inch copper pipe. I also soldered a braid(from some old coax) to the copper pipe leaving about 2 inches right at the bottom. Next I soldered a simaler amount of braid to a 2 foot  5/16 steel rod bought from the hardware store.
I located a good spot near the base of our flowering crab apple tree and with a 2 lb hammer carefully drove the rod straight down into the soil (rocky soil by the way) braid end up, of course. Then I took a 1 3/4 inch spade bit in the portable drill and drilled a hole in the ground as close to the steel rod as I could get  I inserted the dowel in the hole and using long pastic tie strapps supported the copper pipe about 1/2 way up the tree running from three different branches to keep it from touching. Back plastic tubing could have been used as well main thing is to keep it off the bark.
I purchased at TSC two electric fencer red plastic spring clamps and fastened them to my coax coming from the house. (RG58) I connected one from the coax braid to my braid connection on the steel ground rod. The other from the centre conductor was clipped to the short braid hanging off the bottom of the copper pipe antenna.
SWR was so low I thought my meter was broke.
First call netted a contact and I dont believe I have ever called CQ since and not gotten an answer. I believe it is 3 or 4 years now. When my 80M AM is unproductive I just turn the Kenwood on and KNOW I will be able to work somewhere. It was not always so here ,so it has been to me, are real unintended bonus. Neighbours think it is a tree stake.
Now I know some of you are already loading up to critique. Save it. It works and works very very well. No radials. (it is  Marconi basically. )
And while you are sitting there on Slop bucket with your big amp spinning your power meter and dimming the lights, I am the guy who got in ahead of you running barefoot.
I have no desire now for any other antenna at this QTH for 20M. This stupid little thing performs. Even in summer when the grass has quite growing and the lawn has turned brown it still gets out.
Farthest Contact? So far, South Africa. Not super strong but he said I was readable.
Cost? Probably I spent $20.
I suppose one could spend $100 with new stuff. It would be $100 well spent.
Don VE3LYX

[wa3dsp]

Sounds reasonable, a vertical Marconi! I think it might benefit in most locations from some ground radials.  BUT many are missing the point, the original poster wanted a 75 meter limited space antenna which is much more difficult than 20 or even 40 meters.

[WD5JKO]

Back when I was a sophomore in high school (1972) my parents vacationed in a Condo right on Miami beech, and it was on the 11th floor. I was Johnny Novice, WN8PEP, and I packed a S-40B receiver, my home made 6AW8 Pierce_Osc + PA= 7 watts DC input, and a 10' whip. Funny how the trunk of a 72 Chrysler could fit luggage and a ham station. I attached the whip to the patio balcony, and loaded it on 80m with a variometer from a BC-223 tuning unit, and used the wrought iron railing as a counterpoise. I made several contacts up the Florida coast on 3740..

Doing something like that today at the 100 watt level, and I could see some big problems with all the electronics in a modern building. Start with the smoke detectors, security system, internet CAT- 5, Satellite TV system, etc....maybe even the electronic door locks..

Jim
WD5JKO

[VE3AJM]

I have a 20M vertical homebrew made from copper pipe (used , I am cheap) it is a very very good antenna. I can work the world on it. This was a difficult QTH before. My previous was an A3 cushcraft moved here from former QTH . Never had one contact since coming here with it. After a couple of years I sold it. But never mind worrying about a comparison. Lets just stick to the facts.
On 20M I can work the world. Usually first or second call even on a DX pileup. Those who have worked me will vouch for its ability. Last three calls were Modova, Deutschland (Germany ) and Wales. Antenna is fairly broadband and doesnt require retuning . I generaly operate between 14.17 to 14.2 without retuning. I am running barefoot. Kenwood TS830S.  I believe there is a pic of the antenna on QRZ under my call.
This is exactly how I made it.
From the auto wreckers I got a 94 Dodge Ram antenna (needed the fender and didnt want to waste the antenna. ) I fastened the antenna to a copper cap for 3/4 inch copper tubing. I put a soup can lid under the antenna held on by the same bolt. (Sprays the signal? I dont know , just did it this way) I did the calculations and I believe it was 17ft 6 inches total length so I made up the difference in 3/4 copper tubing.
Next I took a hardwood dowel 1 3/4 diameter and machined it in my lathe so a couple of inches slipped inside the bottom of the 3/4 inch copper pipe. I also soldered a braid(from some old coax) to the copper pipe leaving about 2 inches right at the bottom. Next I soldered a simaler amount of braid to a 2 foot  5/16 steel rod bought from the hardware store.
I located a good spot near the base of our flowering crab apple tree and with a 2 lb hammer carefully drove the rod straight down into the soil (rocky soil by the way) braid end up, of course. Then I took a 1 3/4 inch spade bit in the portable drill and drilled a hole in the ground as close to the steel rod as I could get  I inserted the dowel in the hole and using long pastic tie strapps supported the copper pipe about 1/2 way up the tree running from three different branches to keep it from touching. Back plastic tubing could have been used as well main thing is to keep it off the bark.
I purchased at TSC two electric fencer red plastic spring clamps and fastened them to my coax coming from the house. (RG58) I connected one from the coax braid to my braid connection on the steel ground rod. The other from the centre conductor was clipped to the short braid hanging off the bottom of the copper pipe antenna.
SWR was so low I thought my meter was broke.
First call netted a contact and I dont believe I have ever called CQ since and not gotten an answer. I believe it is 3 or 4 years now. When my 80M AM is unproductive I just turn the Kenwood on and KNOW I will be able to work somewhere. It was not always so here ,so it has been to me, are real unintended bonus. Neighbours think it is a tree stake.
Now I know some of you are already loading up to critique. Save it. It works and works very very well. No radials. (it is  Marconi basically. )
And while you are sitting there on Slop bucket with your big amp spinning your power meter and dimming the lights, I am the guy who got in ahead of you running barefoot.
I have no desire now for any other antenna at this QTH for 20M. This stupid little thing performs. Even in summer when the grass has quite growing and the lawn has turned brown it still gets out.
Farthest Contact? So far, South Africa. Not super strong but he said I was readable.
Cost? Probably I spent $20.
I suppose one could spend $100 with new stuff. It would be $100 well spent.
Don VE3LYX

Hey Don,

I thought you had over 5 acres of property over there. A lot of guys would give there eye teeth for that kind of  acreage for full sized antennas for 80 and 40m...rhombics..V beams..dipoles..

Al VE3AJM

[VE3LYX]

I have 8 acres, 8.12 to be exact. Antennas at height are hard for me to string. Also I sense Al you dont really quite understand how well this antenna works. I do actually get in even on pile ups. Ahead of the hummers with their over the limit amps. When you have a real good working antenna why would you want more?
BTW had a wonderful Sunday afternoon on AM working into Maine , Conn  and down that way on the ol DX60. The PM AM net group.
Today I am making a or I should say this week a cathode modulator for my ARC5. Time to get it up and going. used the 1956 ARRl Simple grid modulator. I cant believe I did but I built it by the book , no changes or fudges. Feels Like cheating!
I heard you and Ken Sat and Sun on 80M  but couldnt make the contact. Too close perhaps although I could work Rochestor.
Anyway the Question here was limited space antenna. This one occupys less then 4 sq inches of ground space and works the world with ease. Whats not to like? I have been seriously considering making a 10 meter version to see if it works as well. I am working on a 10m AM rig (pair of 12ax7s grid modulated) in my spare time and have it running at least although still needs some bypassing here and there.
Here are some pics I just took now , The antenna is barely noticable. If you built it and used it and it only worked 1/2 as good as this one you would still be happy. (contact every other CQ?) However there is no reason why it wouldnt work as good for any of you with space challenges or even like me with your antenna climbing stringing days in your past, a distant memory. (I have a severley busted left rib cage. One fall would probably be "curtains".)
Don VE3LYX

[VE3AJM]

Anyone have a small vertical or some such they actually like?

I'm spending a lot of time away from the home QTH at a condo in San Francisco near the new grand kid, Alex, the most wonderful baby. It's on a hill with a dead on view of Sutro tower, that big antenna in SF. But me? I've got nothing. I have a tiny amount of roof area I'd guess 20' x 20'.  The only thing I can figure is maybe a vertical. It would have to be a shortened one with some sort of ground plane. Any of you actually using something worth considering. 75M is a about all I care about. 40 would be nice.

I trust you jokers more than eHam reviews.

A limited space 80 or 40m antenna. Sounds like that vertical is working well for you on the higher frequencies which is good to hear.

Unfortunately we normally can't hear you very well out this way most of the time, when we can hear other stations running similar power and out in eastern Ontario. This is the only place where we semm to have good arm chair conditions to communicate. lol 

Al VE3AJM

[VE3AJM]

You want to try 3725 at 9:30am this morning?

Al VE3AJM

[VE3AJM]

I'm out that way sometimes Don, so if you ever want help to put up an antenna or what have you, let me know. I have a good slingshot etc to get something up high in a tree etc.

Al VE3AJM

[VE3LYX]

Yeah I know Al. It is too bad but I seem to have no problems working 80M east and south east. But some mornings with you fellows it can be tough. I have been thinking or dreaming of a long wire. I live on a cliff and could go out from the eaves over the valley. I have some trees there. Maybe not 100feet tall but tall(60+ maybe?). Probably 150 to 170 feet out. I have an old Hydro insulator , screw in type and was going to ask my brother "a former MR BELL TELEPHONE tech" to install it for me.  I have enough of the old solid copper wire(NOS) to do it and I can put it right over my downstairs shack. I have two tuners although both HB. I even have a slingshot and used it to improve the current 80M inverted L.
If you are down this way please feel welcome to stop in. BTW have fun at St Kits Sat. Say hi to the group. heard Mike on 20m Sunday I think it was. SSB. He was trying to work some DX. My signal here was not enuf for me to try.
Don VE3LYX

[Steve - K4HX]

Nice thread hijack. 

[VE3LYX]

My apologies. Lets get it back on track and keep the chitchat to PM . Here is another I use. A base loaded vertical that just clamps to the deck railing and is grounded to the steel frame underneath. I use it on 80 and 40. M) wand is wood about 6 feet with hook up wire taped to it. Base is plywood and 2X4 screwed together. Loading coil has lots of taps (VERY IMPORTANT) Probably can , using clip leads use if for other bands but I only needed it for 40M and 80M. I use it everyday. Cost ?  $10? I had the stuff.
Don VE3LYX
CHECKED SWR today. 1.3. @7290kcs

[WA2TTP Steve]

Hello,

Jim had mentioned remote via the internet to the home QTH which is what I do.

I use a Kenwood TS-480sat with an internet interface from Remoterig.com.
This setup works great and is no different than sitting in front of the rig at home.
Sitting in my condo in Florida with all it's restrictions on any kind antenna and working the world using my home station infrastructer was the way to go for me.
The first year down here I ran HF mobile and it just wasn't much fun sitting out in the car in the parking lot using a small screwdriver antenna.

The TS-480 even got some good reports on AM and this year I added a Ameritron ALS-600 amp to the system.

If your interested in this method I can provide much more info.

Steve
WA2TTP now in sunny Florida.

[wa3dsp]

The thing I always worry about with these remote systems is the possibility of lockup in a bad state. There has to be a separate timed shutdown independent of the Internet should something go wrong. This is like the hardware reset we used on computers should they lock up. Computers are more reliable now but you can't just depend on the computer to shut things down. I suppose you could also have a reset code from the internet and if it did not get that every 5-10 minutes it would shut down. A simple 555 timer with a reset from the code in the computer and if it did not get it then it would shut the AC off. You also need to make sure you have everything properly fused. You won't be there to smell smoke so if something goes wrong you don't want to start a fire or severely damage equipment. You also would not be there to disconnect antennas so that needs to be automated also.

[K6JEK]

I'm going to try the remote set-up. I did this once before with a Ten-Tec OMNI VII with disappointing results. It hooks directly to the router. There is no computer at the home station end. But it suffered from Max Headroom problems. It stuttered quite a bit. I fiddled with it a lot, changed remote computers etc., but never got it to work well.

I'm going take another run at it rather than try to erect something at the condo. If it's as bad as it was before despite upgrades to everything, I think I'll try a completely a different remote set-up.

I believe the OMNI shuts itself down if it stops hearing from the remote computer. Besides I power it up via a phone line not the Internet so I can shut it off that way if I need to.

It's a good sounding radio on AM. If I can get this working along with a remote linear (like the SGC 500's I already own), I'll be in like Flynn. Lot of if's though.