Looking to The Future....

[w3jn]

Agreed you are not born with the knowledge of how to build a simple dipole, but wouldn't that normally be something you would have been exposed to as you were developing an interest in amateur radio, and would have figured out before you sat for the Extra?

Who cares, so long as the guy doesn't cause trouble on the air and is an interesting QSO partner?

[W1UJR]

It would seem that most popular hobbies have

1) Something to DO that's interesting, challenging, fulfilling and possibly educational
2) Often have a competitive aspect to it (IE chess, shooting, horse back riding, etc)
3) Have a social component
4) Have a reasonable cost of entry
5) Require, at least at first, only reasonable knowledge or knowledge that can be reasonably acquired

Here, here!
Right on point, pithy and to the point as always Steve!

[KA3EKH]

Saw this same thing posted on "Milllist" and I did a posting on there too. The hobby is what you make it, if you feel its dyeing then for you it may be. Myself I have only gotten into AM in the last five years or so. Starting with 7.290 and working many stations and now spending time on 1.885 having fun with an old broadcast transmitter. To me it appears there is way more activity on 7.29 then there was one or two years ago. On a weekend not unusual to not operate because someone else is already on, have only operated 7.16 couple times but recall three years ago never hearing that much activity on 40 I have tried calling CQ several times on 14.236, think that’s the AM calling frequency on 20 but have yet to make a contact on 20, 80 meters is so crowded and somehow get the impression that it’s a "members only" club I don’t waste any time on building anything up for that but almost every time I listen hear someone on 80, this last year I have started operating moderate power on 1.885 and have many contacts there and around a half to a third are with people operating rice box radios so the interest in AM is out there, and perhaps in every Ham that tries AM out on their rice box radio there may be a serious AM operator trying to come out. Last but not least if this is a dyeing hobby why aren’t equipment prices going down instead of up? These like anything else is what you bring into it, but somehow feel that Pissing and Moaning and talking about how everything is going to Hell ant going to inspire anyone to do anything.
Ray Fantini KA3EKH

[KA3ZLR]

Well I'm as bout as interesting as a Post..LOL

But I like to fix things..


73
JAck
KA3ZLR

[k4kyv]

How many of us here on this BB use pulse width modulation or modern components?  Not many.  But, for my son and his compatriots, this is the NATURAL way to do it because that's the world they're in and the world we're in.

If we put forth projects that use current day components and methods, and aren't too expensive, some of these young people will be attracted to our hobby because it offers all the things that a good hobby offers.  I just don't see any but a VERY VERY TINY fraction of young people being interested in 60+ year old technology, and that's what we are largely pushing in the AM community.

For those who don't already have the old stuff on hand, that's the logical way to go. The components are less expensive and easier to acquire, smaller and lighter in weight. And in most cases, the end result sounds better.

A few will become fascinated by the "vintage" stuff and try to collect the material. Others who already have an ample supply of older equipment will be more comfortable to go on using it, rather than trashing it and starting all over again brand new. Just as there are old-car and old-house enthusiasts, there will be a few antique wireless enthusiasts going to great effort to make their 1940s era VFO stable enough to use on the air to-day.

And of course, others will simply punch the AM button on their ricebox and load up the big leen-yar on AM.  Nothing wrong with that if done right; I have heard many such installations that if the op had told me he was running a converted AM broadcast transmitter, I would have believed him. But that probably will not be accomplished the very first time the  rig is tried out on AM, nor using the stock hand mic that  came with the rig.

Compare it to housing. In most cities, towns and villages, there is a mix of new construction, "used" housing dating back to the 40s and 50s, and "historical" housing dating back to the 19th century or earlier. Makes for a more interesting and convenient community than a depressingly bland new development where everything is brand new, or a "historic" district where everything is old, real estate is prohibitively expensive and historic preservation interests make it nearly impossible to add needed improvements to existing properties.

The one thing that can't change very much with radio is effective antennas. Regardless of the rig, whether a KW tube type transmitter or a newly constructed SDR with solid state leen-yar, if the best you can do is a crappy "stealth" antenna over a postage-stamp city lot or a dipole-in-the-attic, you are probably destined to remain a pissweaker. Good antennas make for good signals, and by necessity, can be expected to be high profile.

But regardless, if those who have working stations never get on the air, or just listen and decide "nobody's on" and turn everything off, the bands will sound dead and people will lose interest.

[KA3ZLR]

Hey

I'm hoping to get on with a Central electronics 20 A and My dag gum 813 machine and it's grounded grid Lin-yeeeear etc etc etc .....and if'n it don't sound right I'll werk on it so there..LOL
an my little dog too...

73
Jack
KA3ZLR

[kg8lb]

Steve/QIX

   Some excellent points.  I personally run BA gear but also deplore the snobbery exhibited by so many of the BA operators. Then the sub group snobbery extends to the home-brew set.  In the not so recent past on any given evening there would often appear a first time AM tryout from a modern rig op. Of course there were often problems with the sig but we would always take time to help him get a decent signal. Today I hear fewer of those folks and when they do come around they are often told their signal sucks, can't make them out and more or less go away and come back when you figure it out. Terms like "rice box" really should go away. We may pass them off as a term of endearment but to some it may seem a bit derrogatory. Add to that , some BA/homebrew snobbery is even extended to the people building advanced SS rigs. Like the guy who built a rig out of a 70 year old hand book can somehow look down his nose at a fellow that has innovated and built an original state of the art design ?
   I was quite taken aback earlier this year when a very sweet 9 year old YL tried to get involved in a QSO on 75 . The "Strap and Ignore" mentality overwhelmed the poor kid and she was treated quite poorly. A pity that all of the folks who compare the superiority of their receiver and antenna system could not take the time and expertise to copy this new ham , on AM yet ! Here we were , copying her quite well on our little Retro 75 XCVR !
  Of course, the language and subject matter that often pervades 75 meter phone may give cause for some folks to restrict a 9 year old YL from listening there at all ! Seems many are content to keep it a good old boy's club.
   My nephew's 10 year old daughter had expressed an interest in amateur radio. Her grandfather and grandmother were supportive and were also considering getting licensed. They spend a lot of time up north and thought it would be fun to chat with their grand daughter from the cabin. After listening on 75 they came away quite discouraged and pretty much thought it would not be a good thing for a young lady to take part in.
  As you say there are also the old cronies who think their lingo is the only lingo . Don't talk like them and you may be a "bogus" ham op. The same fellows consider CW ops as snobs ?

  Sure, ham radio is a warm "fraternity" The clique mentality however has had a chilling effect .

  BTW, W2NBC,
   That 35 watt AF67 you copied 15 over 9 , early last night was loaded into a Co-ax fed 1/2 wave dipole @ 30 feet from a "postage stamp" lot . So much fer the PW destiny ?    We have worked southern TN with a Retro 75 two watter and S9 sig reports using the same antenna as well. Co-ax, not OWL  

[W5COA]

One activity that I have been supporting for several years is the Boy Scouts Jamboree on the Air (JotA), held on the third weekend in October. This year it will be held on October 15-16.

The Scouts camp out on my property, and I invite them to my station for a demonstration and a chance to talk to other Scouts and hams. We have made contacts from my qth all the way to FrogNot Texas and New Zealand, and have had a ball.

I don't know if any of the boys pursued the radio hobby any further, but at least a dozen or two were exposed.

Here is the JotA website, which is more involved than necessary. Just get on, operate, and let the kids talk.

 http://www.scout.org/en/information_events/events/jota/the_54th_jota_2011

One of the kids commented "this is just like instant messaging".

73,
Jim W5COA

[w3jn]

It would seem that most popular hobbies have

1) Something to DO that's interesting, challenging, fulfilling and possibly educational
2) Often have a competitive aspect to it (IE chess, shooting, horse back riding, etc)
3) Have a social component
4) Have a reasonable cost of entry
5) Require, at least at first, only reasonable knowledge or knowledge that can be reasonably acquired

Ham radio can have all of these aspects, but we - at least most AMers are not putting our best foot forward.

Here's an example.  My younger son is a computer ENGINEERING major (he gets both electrical engineering and computer science).

They are teaching him about everything solid state and current because that's the real world.  He is in the mainstream.  His interest in ham radio will not be fooling around with antiques, rather it will be taking his knowledge of electronics and contemporary components, and applying them to radio communication.

The solid state rig and the software defined radios ARE in his mainstream.  My son's FIRST project at college was to build a robot using a PIC microprocessor.  This is their world.  He learned about pulse width modulators, power supplies, MOSFETs, transformers, microprocessors, software and more.  He came back from his first year understanding pulse width modulation, and asked me if that's the same pulse width modulation I use in my rigs.  I said it is.

He now has enough skills to build a solid state transmitter and he also doesn't think it's very hard!!!

How many of us here on this BB use pulse width modulation or modern components?  Not many.  But, for my son and his compatriots, this is the NATURAL way to do it because that's the world they're in and the world we're in.

If we put forth projects that use current day components and methods, and aren't too expensive, some of these young people will be attracted to our hobby because it offers all the things that a good hobby offers.  I just don't see any but a VERY VERY TINY fraction of young people being interested in 60+ year old technology, and that's what we are largely pushing in the AM community.

I'm not saying the old stuff is bad, but it is what it is - old - and from a past that's so far distant, the young people (under 30) - and often their PARENTS weren't even BORN - and a lot of the stuff was old THEN.  It is definitely NOT the reality of people who are attending college or even tech school today, or even in the past 2 decades.  And THESE are the people who are our potential future hams.

Nobody asked me - just my opinion 

The beauty of ham radio is there's a niche for almost every interest.  My engineering education focused almost entirely on solid state - in the early 1980s tubes were on the way out and were introduced almost as an aside.  Yet I still gravitate towards the antique stuff, although I'm in the process of finishing up a HB sync detector made largely with SMD components.

When I started at the University of Minnesota (a "good school" with, IMHO, an undeserved fine reputation), they tried to beat the RF out of us.  "Don't bother with analog and especially don't bother with RF, the future is all digital."  Poor advice from learned people that should have known better.  I quit the U of M and took up at a small state college (with a highly under rated, IMHO, reputation) whose engineering department had a close relationship with EF Johnson.  Our mentor from EF Johnson was a ham, working on the first cellphones.  The trustee of the nice club station we had was a draftsman for Collins radio, who drew the schematics in the first S-line manuals.  The school had an electron microscope that any student could play with.  A full machine shop whenever you wanted.  Guys literally built and machined engines from raw stock in that shop.  It was a highly nurturing environment that encouraged you to sample many things and explore your interests.  And one of the things I learned there was to appreciate the larger realm of technology and find my own niche while retaining some broader expertise. 

"Best foot forward" isn't the same for everyone.  If looking at the members here and on antiqueradios.com is any indication, there are plenty of guys younger that you or I, Steve, that are getting into the hobby by way of inheriting an old console radio, getting the gumption up to restore it, and going to the next levels.  There is a huge resurgence in interest in obsolete technology lately, and ham radio is one outstanding way to productively pursue it.  And it's one of the few ways a 70 year old piece of gear can interface/communicate with the latest design from your lab, Steve.  There just aren't many other hobbies that offer that.

There is no wrong path in ham radio (unless you pursue jamming or other disruptive behavior) and the parochialism against the other niches is counterproductive.

[KA3ZLR]

Hi,

At this point after all the input here I think everybody has done they're share an more..

73
Jack
KA3ZLR

[W3GMS]

These are my opinions and you know what they say about opinions!  This is just mine.

I think its great that we have technologies to pick from.  I could care less if the guy I am talking to is using a Flex, Class E, or D rig either PDM or Series Class H modulated, a DX-40 with original stock carrier control modulation, a stock Apache, a KW-1 or any other thing that produces a signal. As long as I can hear him I could care less about the power he is running. I also relish when someone on SSB comes back to my CQ on AM and we have a chance to chat.  Many times he will say, "let me try this thing on AM and tell me how you copy".  Then often times this guides one in helping him set the carrier to audio ratio and he ultimately signs a happy camper.  What could be better.

As far as matching the technology one uses against weather your a kid, middle age or old timer is a bit off in my opinion and I will try and explain why.  Recently, a relatively new ham who built the K1, K2 and K3 told me after seeing some of my older gear that he would love to have vintage tube to operate on the air.  Well, I am just finishing him up a DX-40 and a VF-1 for his vintage station.  He came to the GMS lab one Saturday and helped with the restoration.  This guy is in the electronic field and maybe 35 years old and has 2 PhD's one of which is in Electrical Engineering.  He has an extreamly good grasp on the modern technology, but still wanted a tube transmitter to use at times along with the rest of his contemporary station.   

For me, I spent 36 years as an electrical engineer working and designing all kinds of state of the art equipment.  I was involved in everything from Processor design, to FPGA's, to custom ASIC's to Switch Mode Power Supply and System Design.  For some, but certainly not all, its fun to go to a different technology bucket when your enjoying your hobby.  For me, I enjoy the period from the 20's through the 50's the best.  Modern day technology does not scare me off one bit.  I just chose to do something different than I did for a living all those years. 

Maybe I am missing something based on the frequencies I generally operate on, but I do not find an overwhelming amount of snobbishness.  I do hear a lot of the guys using the same technologies talking to each other about that particular technology they are using.  To me that is not unusual since many times they are discussing the design particulars of that technology.  It goes back to an old saying "Birds of a Feather Flock together".  Some people like rapid style breakin while others enjoy non break in operation.  If you like rapid style breakin, you can be trained by Ralph, W3GL since he is the best around.  If you prefer non breakin, here on the East Coast, 3.705 is typically more traditional.  People with common interest generally enjoy talking to each other a lot.  Almost like special interest groups within the big umbrella of AM.  Some examples, Antique wireless nets, DX-60 nets, Collins net, and I am sure many others.  I am not aware of a class E net but I do hear the op's using Class E transmitters talking to one another a lot and that is what I would expect.             

So who cares what a guy or gal is running as long as they are on the air and having a good time with the gear they have.   

Amateur Radio has many slices thank heavens.  Pick some slices you like and enjoy the hobby.

Joe, W3GMS

[W1RKW]

Joe, KA1BWO worked at the same place I worked at. The couple of occasions we were together talking about radio elicited much interested by the younger engineers and even some seasoned ones too.  There are a couple of others who are hams as well but it only goes so far.

What I find where I work with the engineers we have, they are only interested in applying their trade at work. After that they're off the clock. 

Some of us are lucky to have money to 'burn' to support an interest/hobby outside of work. Maybe that's where part of the problem lies? One can only instill so much interest the rest is up to the individual who's interested.  Most of the younger ones hobbies are video games, not building and designing.

[Opcom]

The ARRL is pathetic at it, always has been, probably always will be so.

is there anthing the arrl isn't pathetic at? actually, at the moment the way they seem to be getting trying to get people to get their license is by focusing on EMCOMM as if it's the only thing that exist.

The lure of danger and excitement may entice youngsters. EmComm can be exciting. Things have been thrown at one of our operators in a shelter. Whether its right or not to attract youngsters with wild tales, for goodness sakes STOP THE ORANGE VESTS!!!

[Opcom]

I seldom participate in this saccharine kind of stuff, but I seriously disagree with the assertion:

The memory of you will fade within a generation or two,
except for your written, published words.
Written words can live forever.

Audio and video recordings, and archival websites such as YouTube are today's repository for "writings" of which the author speaks.

I've got recordings of some of you guys that we all will cherish when you're gone. Some of this audio is already out there, as we note the passing of some of the AM Tall Ships the past 20 years or so.

Help the archive.  Get your recording capabilities up and running ahead of this Fall/Winter radio season.  As always, there's a lot of good radio out there. Enjoy it now AND enjoy it later.

Youtube may die some day. The Prelinger archives/internet archive  have interest in ephemeral recordings and the like, and not much ham stuff yet.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

           
So who cares what a guy or gal is running as long as they are on the air and having a good time with the gear they have.   

That's how I've always looked at it too, Joe. The point of having a license to transmit is to transmit. You don't need one for listening. Finding someone to talk to is always a plus in my book. You can't see what the other guy is using for equipment, so how could it possibly matter?

I can remember when I got back on the air in early 2006, and even listening prior to that, at the increased number of riceboxes being used on AM. More surprising than the number, was how much better they sounded than even a few years earlier. So long as the signal is readable, it works. Someone running too little audio for their carrier is far more annoying than communications-quality audio, in my opinion. Frustrating, because you can see their carrier on the meter, and could likely have a good QSO if they just had a bit more audio.

The lure of danger and excitement may entice youngsters. EmComm can be exciting. Things have been thrown at one of our operators in a shelter. Whether its right or not to attract youngsters with wild tales, for goodness sakes STOP THE ORANGE VESTS!!!

That's pretty funny stuff.  I was state RACES director for over a decade, long before it became a hamsexy thing to do. Our biggest problem were the TV stars, the guys who would show up at an incident with their HT in hopes of getting on TV, but were never available for training, workshops, or anything else. Culling the membership list dealt with that pretty easily.

Like Joe says, there are plenty of options for plenty of interests. How we choose to present it has the most impact.

[k4kyv]

Agreed you are not born with the knowledge of how to build a simple dipole, but wouldn't that normally be something you would have been exposed to as you were developing an interest in amateur radio, and would have figured out before you sat for the Extra?

Who cares, so long as the guy doesn't cause trouble on the air and is an interesting QSO partner?

Nevertheless, a clear demonstration that the Incentive Licensing nonsense has become a total farce, and that Extra Class has lost what significance it might have ever had. Precisely the reason I never applied for a 1 X 2 call sign after the "vanity" system went into effect.

[Opcom]

For one I am willing to talk to anyone who can pass the test and get a license. Actually I will talk to bootleggers too but I don't condone it and have asked one or two to get a license, told them it's easy and where to find the practice tests. That is not a lie -it is easy especially with those online tests.

I know the code requirement is gone and that burns people who had to struggle through it, and the technical test is much easier than in the past which also burns people.

Those two things which some of us love to complain about give us a chance now to engage those new people who are interested in CW as a hobby or skill and help them out, and to help the others learn about the electronics side of things.

This ought to be our mission to help new hams improve themselves if they want to. By doing this and being friendly about it, we indirectly may help new people (their friends?) become interested in ham radio. Maybe the inexperienced guy you are talking with has a son who is interested in science. If Dad has good experiences on the air, he may do the work to get the boy involved. Or equally the daughter in her case.

The comments about technology are right. To start building, an AM/CW TX is easiest, and although we mostly like to work with tubes and high voltages, for new blood tubes are only a novelty and they have not acquired a taste for them yet and might not ever. The transistors and ICs are the way for them to start simple projects that can really work well once it is done.

Couple folks here have built class E stuff. It is complicated and there's no need for anyone to start at that level, it'll drive them nuts. I was thinking about a few stages of transistors with a very simple modulator, something that can be driven by $10 hamfest signal generator or use a crystal to start with.

Just throwing some ideas on the table. What are the requirements for a ham?
1. attention span >10 minutes
2. willing to work a little for something
3. interest in science

There has been no decrease in the pool of potential hams. The competitors are the same -sex, cars, inebriation/intoxication, and in the last 3 decades the computers/video games/internet have come about. That's the biggest competitor right there. The computer can be a big fun part of ham radio but how many potential hams know that?

[w3jn]

The Words of Truth.  Well said, Joe!

So who cares what a guy or gal is running as long as they are on the air and having a good time with the gear they have.   

Amateur Radio has many slices thank heavens.  Pick some slices you like and enjoy the hobby.

For some, but certainly not all, its fun to go to a different technology bucket when your enjoying your hobby.

[steve_qix]

Hmmmmmmm... somehow the discussion has morphed into "who one will talk to" and a defense of various modes/technologies, etc.

I think the thread is about how to attract new hams to the hobby so it doesn't fade into oblivion    We have a certain pool of people from whom to choose, and this pool has certain characteristics.  How can we attract members of this pool of folks to our hobby - I think that's what we started out talking about 

Regards,

Steve

[w3jn]

I think it's germane to the discussion, Steve, because it's one thing for a n00b to get a license.  It's yet another thing entirely for ham radio to hold their interest.  It does no good to "recruit" if they ultimately find it a boring hobby.  As I did, before I discovered AM 

[KA3ZLR]

Well, I think Media is where it's at.

 Youtube functions very well Look at Burt..he gets-r-done man try that it's W.W.
I think it's in media where it will best serve our purpose.

Word of mouth it's works it's free ya know...how many people want to discuss
Amateur Radio through the course of a regular day.


I feel a well put together Video in a half hour format and brought to the attention of
The Public Broadcast System, every body has a Channel 13 on their Home Video system
could do a fare job.

73
Jack
KA3ZLR

[steve_qix]

It does no good to "recruit" if they ultimately find it a boring hobby.  As I did, before I discovered AM 

Ain't THAT the truth!  If it weren't for AM, I sure wouldn't be a ham.  Thank God for SWLing back in the '60s.  Hopefully, there are some SWLs out there still that are tuning in to our AM QSOs and will become hams someday.

[KA3ZLR]

We took that problem on at WACOM during the classes it would be addressed
Amateur radio is what you make of it. It's your time it's your hobby..Like the
old books used to say find an area you like and become proficient at it.


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

[k4kyv]

I don't recall ever actually hearing a member of the AM gang refuse to talk, or be rude, to a newcomer or someone trying out AM on his rig for the first time, although I repeatedly hear allegations to that effect on this and other BBs all the time. That still doesn't erase the feeling of dismay when a licensed Extra doesn't have a  clue how to build a simple dipole antenna, or fails to understand why he cannot legally operate LSB (or AM) when his digital display reads precisely 3.6000.

Perhaps some newcomers and old timers alike are insecure and overly thin skinned, and take offence when none was intended. Most likely the real reason he was ignored (if indeed that really happened), or not immediately embraced with open arms, was that he didn't have enough signal to make himself heard, or he broke into the heat of a serious discussion about a specific subject, and immediately began to ramble off-topic. I see people chastised all the time on forum and reflector threads for the latter, something just as rude over the air as it is via the "Web".

Something else that would help when attempting to break into an existing QSO would be to zero-beat the carrier of the last station that was transmitting just before the attempt.

[kg8lb]

Hmmmmmmm... somehow the discussion has morphed into "who one will talk to" and a defense of various modes/technologies, etc.

I think the thread is about how to attract new hams to the hobby so it doesn't fade into oblivion    We have a certain pool of people from whom to choose, and this pool has certain characteristics.  How can we attract members of this pool of folks to our hobby - I think that's what we started out talking about  

Regards,

Steve

Generating new members is not really enough. We need additional activity, new younger members. We often discourage new participants by virtue of the way they are treated . The content of the QSO may also tend to drive certain segments away . The topics , and conduct do indeed vary by band and mode. Never heard discussions involving sexual "Gerbling" on CW like the QSO I heard last night on 75 AM  

  I really doubt that the rare "Extra" class op that my be clueless on the mysteries of the dipole or why his signal has bandwidth has much bearing upon the activity level . Why try to define the norm based upon a rare exception anyhow    Surely a pre-conceived attitude regarding a person's license status could reflect on conduct during the QSO. Condescension and smugness can have a chilling effect rather than encouraging activity.
Like many others, I only upgraded to Extra in order receive additional bandspace, not for the purpose of seeking  status.