Working Canditions

[flintstone mop]

<<<Or, if you are in one of those God-forsaken "old Buzzard" roundtables>>>

That's why God gave us CCS Old Buzzard gear.     That fast break-in stuff must be an extra-midwest thing (thank God).

I kinda agree.....The break-in is fine for some groups....I like the roundtable and there are some that make a nice transmission for a couple of minutes and turn it over to the next guy. Some even take notes for the rotation, (I try).
Break-in is fine for good condx and everyone easily heard. But someone is always going to get left out and will eventually leave the group. One benefit of 160M is that it is not always everyone hearing each other perfectly. The op who put the time into a good antenna build and running legal limit will have a better chance to be heard.
I would suggest "breaking in" after looking for a clear freq, and announce you are leaving the group and are QSYing and start another QSO. I don't think anyone would be offended.There may be others listening and will move also to join in YOUR new QSO.
Fred

[The Slab Bacon]

There's old buzzard and there's old buzzard.  

Bad:  Guy running 50 watts to G5RV 20% copy talks for 20 minutes.

That is more commonly known as "the first rule of the piss-weaker".

Which is, The weaker they are, the longer they talk.

Yeppir!! Thatz when you just "drop the maul" on them, strap them and get the QSO going again!! "BANG, lookie here; squashed just like a bug! ! ! "    

<<<Running break-in also gives the incentive to build a big strapping transmitter..........>>>
It does?   I don't see the connection between the two.  

Sure, the connection is that if you have a big signal, you can sneak in a comment and be heard!! You cant do that with a piss-weaker, no one will hear you. All of my transmitters run full break-in capability including the 4X1 rig.

And then they can't remember who to turn it over to.

OOOooooooo! I hate that! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! they call themselves "rotationally challenged"
they talk so long that they forget who gets it next. Usually ending with something like
"You know who you are, go ahead and take it". That just nurks my nanny! ! ! That usually makes for a good time to bust the roundtable into a good break-in session! ! !      

With the 75m east-coast crowd (I include myself), all it takes is the right comment at the right time and all hell breaks loose and the fun begins   

[k4kyv]

I find break-in works best in a one-on-one, or at most a three-way, when all parties have a specific topic to discuss, and you can toss it back an forth like a real in-person conversation.

A large break-in QSO is as bad as a large roundtable. With fast break-in, usually two or three members dominate the conversation, while the others just sit by listening, maybe injecting a comment every now and again, and inevitably two or more stations will end up transmitting on top of one another.

Regardless of whether it's break-in or roundtable, once the QSO grows beyond three or four, it's time for two or more of the participants to QSY to a near-by frequency and start a second conversation.  That keeps both groups reasonable in size, plus it makes for more AM presence on the band.

I can recall a group of about three who used to operate fast break-in back in the early 70s on 75m AM.  Don't remember who they were, but they had it perfected to an art.  Everyone had a good quality, strapping signal, and once they got going, it reminded me of a well-adjusted machine, with hardly an audible break in the carrier between transmissions, and rarely did they "double".

Another example of "phony" operating is someone who uses VOX with slopbucket, and makes "ahhhh" sounds between words to prevent the rig from dropping out of transmit mode.

[W2PFY]

I cannot understand why people want to make a 45 minute transmission in the first place. Perhaps I have a short attention span.It seems to me, the longer a transmission goes, generally the more boring it becomes. Some people are naturals at it. They must be very relaxed and most likely live to be 100. How old was Ozona Bob when he passed away? Probably 168? I only heard him a few times and I mean no disrespect to old Bob. Now in our area we have a few that can O.B. but only one comes close and that would be MTZ down in CT. HLR might be a close second but it's a toss up between him and Bob K1REC.

I guess the situation could be worst if it was someone you didn't like. When was the last time anyone was assassinated for making an old buzzard

[The Slab Bacon]

Terry,
         you're forgetting about 51w Phred. He can go on indefinately. I have strapped him many times just to shut him up. Him at the mike was a good time to go off and make coffee or something to eat. (or other things)   

[K1JJ]

I cannot understand why people want to make a 45 minute transmission in the first place.

I sometimes try to make sense of these things and come up with scientific rules and formulas to fit...

Here's one that may apply:

"The percentage of time spent by others replying to our comments is inversely proportional to the length of our transmission."


Example:

We ask a short, direct question - we get a comment back that relates 100% to what we just said.

We make a 20 minute transmission - if they're still awake, we get back a general patronizing reply that comments on <1% of what we just said - and then the subject gets quickly changed to something else.

Has anyone noticed this pattern?    

T

[The Slab Bacon]

YES! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

[K5UJ]

I have never in my life found a VOX circuit that worked okay.  I hate VOX.   there have been maybe three times in my life when I have tried it (usually for something to do) and the experiment lasted around 5 minutes before giving up on it.   It's like a restuarant you go to every 10 years.   After 10 years you forget how bad it is and go back, then re-learn how bad it is then it takes 10 years to forget....

Fast break-in must be hell on synch-detector receivers.

Most of the time I don't fault anyone for going on too long.    If I had a big rig my attitude would probably be summed up by, "I didn't park no 1 KW bc rig in here to make a 30 second transmission."  (or anything else that weighs more than 300 lbs.)     Also, in winter a lot of basement shacks need the OB heat.  You can't warm anything up with them fast break-in QSOs.   

[k4kyv]

Fast break-in must be hell on synch-detector receivers.   

If everyone is on or very close to the same frequency, no.  If one or more stations is on a different frequency, yes.  The Sherwood has an added feature called "AR" mode, which allows the BFO to lock more quickly to an off-frequency carrier.  Without that feature, you have to manually re-zero each time. But even in AR mode it can take up to several seconds if the station is far enough off  zero-beat, and in extreme cases, lock never occurs. With fast break-in, sometimes it takes the BFO longer to lock than the transmission lasts, or else you miss half the transmission waiting for the BFO to settle down.

I sometimes have a problem after calling CQ and someone responds with a half-second transmission, off frequency. I totally miss the call because the BFO never had time to lock. I usually stay in envelope detector mode when  calling CQ.

AM ops should be as conscientious as slopbucketeers about staying zero-beat with each other.  Exceptions: (1) when operating xtal controlled, and one or more xtals is slightly off frequency, and (2) the "exit stage left" strategy is engaged to dodge slopbucketeers deliberately trying to piggy-back ride the AM carrier.

[W3RSW]

Fun thread, waded through it all.

Don, you've mentioned sync det. playing havoc with roundtable break-in before too.  But the remedy of exact freq. sync flies in the face of using VFO's or SS equivalent as 'real' hams.  ... ahh, we can't have it all. 

Besides, I like hearing the converging whistles for each participant, in my case from a SDR.

-and another post intreagued me:

I can recall a group of about three who used to operate fast break-in back in the early 70s on 75m AM.  Don't remember who they were, but they had it perfected to an art.  Everyone had a good quality, strapping signal, and once they got going, it reminded me of a well-adjusted machine, with hardly an audible break in the carrier between transmissions, and rarely did they "double".

That art is not dead. Sounds like the 'what's for dinner net', fer sure! -a well lubricated net.
Perfect!   Now to get some nice fall conditions.

[K9FH]

How about "This is W6XYZ, for ID".  Why else would someone speak their call?

It's done as a courtesy to the other operator.

During a transmission that exceeds ten minutes, when the ID is given as above, it is a method to to inform the other operator that you are merely ID'ing and not preparing to hand it over to the other operator immediately.  The other operator might be busy sipping his Coke and you don't want him to spill it as he hurries to get into position to start his T/R switching sequence. He might even be soldering at his workbench, and  start to put away his soldering iron needlessly.

Perhaps we should get into the habit of saying "This is W6XYZ for ID "only" or "This is W6XYZ, over", rather than the generic "This is W6XYZ". That way, everyone might understand that there is a reason to specify you are ID'ing within a transmission or at the end of a transmission.

It's all so very complicated. That's why I'm giving up amateur radio.  No one operates the way I think they should.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I solved this problem years ago. I stay out of big roundtables (more then 2 stations), always keep my transmissions to 10 minutes or less, and try to stay away from stations who constantly ramble, mumble, and require the use of an unbelievable amount of words, phrases, jargon, etc. to explain/discuss even the most simple subjects. No wonder I like contests and VHF. 

[KX5JT]

I solved this problem years ago. I stay out of big roundtables (more then 2 stations), always keep my transmissions to 10 minutes or less, and try to stay away from stations who constantly ramble, mumble, and require the use of an unbelievable amount of words, phrases, jargon, etc. to explain/discuss even the most simple subjects. No wonder I like contests and VHF. 

Hey Pete!  You would get along great with JT-65HF

[K5UJ]

Half the time when I call CQ, I get a fast on the trigger one-call no repeat answer and if I am lucky I catch the last letter or the carrier as I am bringing up the receiver.   the assumption that everyone is instantly in full receive lightning fast is irritating. 

I try to give a two minute warning (two minutes in AM time is more like 5 minutes) when I'm about to throw the frequency back to the other station so that he has time to get back to his mic.  There's a local ham I work fairly regularly (except this summer the wx has been a significant disruption) and we often give each other these advance notices as a courtesy.   If I don't have to operate with cans on my head, I might be upstairs heating something in the microwave, or looking at something someone referred to on the internet, or looking up a circuit in a handbook and if I suddenly get called I have to dash back to the basement which I don't particularly enjoy.  If I wanted to stay glued to the operating desk I wouldn't have any speakers.

Another thing I try to do if I don't forget, is give an ending time in my CQing.  This is to let someone waiting to call me know that the CQ is going to really end and when.  My CQs usually run about 2 or 3 minutes.    This is to increase the chance of band cruisers hearing me when they tune across.   But people are so impatient they want a CQ to be over in a red hot second.  Saying "This transmission will end in sixty seconds" and eying the clock keeps them from losing patience and moving on (I hope).

[W1ATR]

I personally prefer break-in operation myself. One thing both am and ssb can both use is an infusion of "normal speech patterns". Talk to people like your in the room with them talking face to face. Radio replaces nothing but distance. If we were in person, and I hand you a beer that's 38deg, I don't need a 40 minute lecture on how you prefer your beer at 37.5deg. Tell me it sucks, and lets move on. Dominating the conversation is a form of narcissism and its unfair to the others who may have something to say. The speaker goes on so long and covers so many points in one transmission, that you lose your train of thought and forget what you wanted to say in the first place, so the entire transmission was a waste of everyone's time. It's not really a conversation, but more of a memory test.  Having to take notes is crap. I mean seriously, if your having a conversation with your family, do they all whip out note pads? Just talk to people like you would talk to their face. Some of the jargon I hear is unbelievable. Websters pretty much has it all covered, so we don't really need any home brewed words. (Destinated comes to mind. )

Maybe Burts cynicism is wearing off on me a little.   

[k4kyv]

What has to suck the most is when someone uses VOX with full carrier AM, so that the carrier keeps dropping out with a "thump" between words and pauses.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I'm real impressed with "people" who join a QSO and then spend the next 5 minutes tuning up while everyone else listens to a dead carrier and the occasional mumbles, growls, or some other nondescript sounds.

And then there's the amateur who says he's signing off and then spends the next 5 to 10 minutes rambling on trying to find where to put the period to end. Reminds me of posters who seem to be "mind void" of any punctuation knowledge.

[KX5JT]

Whatever do you mean Pete

You should really live a little Pete.  Worrying about all the little things other people do or don't do and allowing it to ruin your fun must really suck.

Don, I had someone come back to me once on AM with the VOX engaged.  That was strange.  I told him he should probably disengage the VOX on AM and went on to have a pretty good QSO.

[The Slab Bacon]

I personally prefer break-in operation myself. One thing both am and ssb can both use is an infusion of "normal speech patterns". Talk to people like your in the room with them talking face to face. Radio replaces nothing but distance. If we were in person, and I hand you a beer that's 38deg, I don't need a 40 minute lecture on how you prefer your beer at 37.5deg. Tell me it sucks, and lets move on. Dominating the conversation is a form of narcissism and its unfair to the others who may have something to say. The speaker goes on so long and covers so many points in one transmission, that you lose your train of thought and forget what you wanted to say in the first place, so the entire transmission was a waste of everyone's time. It's not really a conversation, but more of a memory test.  Having to take notes is crap. I mean seriously, if your having a conversation with your family, do they all whip out note pads? Just talk to people like you would talk to their face. Some of the jargon I hear is unbelievable. Websters pretty much has it all covered, so we don't really need any home brewed words. (Destinated comes to mind. )

Maybe Burts cynicism is wearing off on me a little.   

Well Put! ! ! !   OOOOOooooo........... I hate the term "destinated" and the phrase "how copy?"

[The Slab Bacon]

I solved this problem years ago. I stay out of big roundtables (more then 2 stations), always keep my transmissions to 10 minutes or less, and try to stay away from stations who constantly ramble, mumble, and require the use of an unbelievable amount of words, phrases, jargon, etc. to explain/discuss even the most simple subjects. No wonder I like contests and VHF. 

I guess that's why we dont hear you on much, Pete.   

[flintstone mop]

I solved this problem years ago. I stay out of big roundtables (more then 2 stations), always keep my transmissions to 10 minutes or less, and try to stay away from stations who constantly ramble, mumble, and require the use of an unbelievable amount of words, phrases, jargon, etc. to explain/discuss even the most simple subjects. No wonder I like contests and VHF. 

Hey Pete!  You would get along great with JT-65HF

Good one!!!! You do not need a microphone either!!!

[flintstone mop]

I personally prefer break-in operation myself. One thing both am and ssb can both use is an infusion of "normal speech patterns". Talk to people like your in the room with them talking face to face. Radio replaces nothing but distance. If we were in person, and I hand you a beer that's 38deg, I don't need a 40 minute lecture on how you prefer your beer at 37.5deg. Tell me it sucks, and lets move on. Dominating the conversation is a form of narcissism and its unfair to the others who may have something to say. The speaker goes on so long and covers so many points in one transmission, that you lose your train of thought and forget what you wanted to say in the first place, so the entire transmission was a waste of everyone's time. It's not really a conversation, but more of a memory test.  Having to take notes is crap. I mean seriously, if your having a conversation with your family, do they all whip out note pads? Just talk to people like you would talk to their face. Some of the jargon I hear is unbelievable. Websters pretty much has it all covered, so we don't really need any home brewed words. (Destinated comes to mind. )

Maybe Burts cynicism is wearing off on me a little.   

I understand your point and this always comes up about break-in mode and roundtable. Both have good points and bad.
Roundtable, sometimes, not always, encourages endless blabbering and testing the Webster dictionary
Break-in mode excludes folks who cannot step on the PTT fast enough to get their $ .02 cents in and encourages the sound effects of bodily noises, which sound unprofessional on the air.
Sorry my opinion. I like the way it used to be from my early days of listening to AM Ham radio ops.

Fred

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I solved this problem years ago. I stay out of big roundtables (more then 2 stations), always keep my transmissions to 10 minutes or less, and try to stay away from stations who constantly ramble, mumble, and require the use of an unbelievable amount of words, phrases, jargon, etc. to explain/discuss even the most simple subjects. No wonder I like contests and VHF. 

Hey Pete!  You would get along great with JT-65HF

Good one!!!! You do not need a microphone either!!!

Digital modes can be great fun on VHF/UHF frequencies for working stations that you couldn't possibly hear if they were using phone. You also don't find very many wannabee comics operating those frequencies.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I solved this problem years ago. I stay out of big roundtables (more then 2 stations), always keep my transmissions to 10 minutes or less, and try to stay away from stations who constantly ramble, mumble, and require the use of an unbelievable amount of words, phrases, jargon, etc. to explain/discuss even the most simple subjects. No wonder I like contests and VHF. 

I guess that's why we dont hear you on much, Pete.   

As I said in some previous post, I'm on almost every day but 75 and 160 were never high on my love list and even less during the summer months.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Whatever do you mean Pete

You should really live a little Pete.  Worrying about all the little things other people do or don't do and allowing it to ruin your fun must really suck.

I have very little tolerance for amateurs who use the airwaves for their own personal stage of ramble or comedic nonsense or tend to act like idiots whenever they're on the air. My fun in the amateur radio arena can be measured in many ways. Zero tolerance for these types of people makes that go a long way.