Extending WI-FI Signal

[k4kyv]

I am still trying to figure out a way to get good signal strength all over the house, and out to the shack about 100 ft. away without stringing a bunch of cable. I use an older G router, which has no external antenna. I need to stay with the G technology (2.4 GHz I believe), because none of my devices are compatible with the newer type N technology, which I understand is still in the "beta" stage anyway, and 5.8 GHz probably would have even less penetration range.

One option would be to replace my cheap little router with one rated for greater range, but the ones I have seen in the store are a little pricey, and I don't want to spend the bux and find out that I still can't get a good signal where I want it. Another is to use a "repeater", but I wonder how well they really work, and whether or not they affect upload/download speed. Both my laptop and the internet radio get flaky at anything less than 3 bars.  I'd like to be able to get 4 or 5 bars in every room in the house and out in the shack. Even large hotels manage to do it, but I don't have a clue what kind of equipment they use.

I'm sure the FeeCee imposes some kind of limit on output power and range, but I'm wondering if some outfit (Cramer, maybe?) might sell a reliable "bootleg" version that puts out extra power, like the ones commonly available for cordless phones, FM broadcast band and of course, for the chicken band. Legality shouldn't be an issue here because the signal strength could easily be kept within the legal maximum at the boundaries of my 100 acres, the closest of which is several hundred feet from both the house and the shack. I haven't been able to find anything on the web, and some would likely be ripoffs. Maybe I am not searching the right place.

A homebrew external power amplifier would help signal strength, but simply boosting transmit power at the router wouldn't do anything to boost reception in the other direction. Perhaps a directional antenna would work, since that would help both ways.

Just wondering if anyone else has found a satisfactory solution to a similar problem.

[WA3VJB]

I'd start with buying a router that gives you an external connector, and spend the time on good antenna selection and placement rather than J-Sing up an amp of some kind.

I found a 2.4GHZ omnidirectional gain antenna for marine use, and used some 1/4" heliax to be able to mount it in its weatherproof housing on a rainspout.  Laptops being used around our split level house now get signal strength of all bars regardless of whether you're in the basement, or the room farthest from the wi-fi.  

I also get good signal out on the back of the property, but that's line of sight to the rainspout.

For the house, when we got fiber optic service, the wi-fi saved having to wire the place with CAT cable, and throughput speeds are the same as a hardwire.

As far as I know, the "N" type router uses the same frequency range as B/G, and is backward compatible with devices that don't speak the N data protocol. That should expand the range of routers to shop for.

[steve_qix]

Hi Don,

As Paul pointed out, 802.11n is a better protocol, however the issue is not so much with the n protocol, but whether YOUR devices (such as your laptops, etc) will speak the newer protocols or not.

The WI-FI problem is the mix of 802.11b, g and n (and WI-MAX).  Your 802.11b S.U.s (subscriber units) will give you the most problems.

I have used various methods to extend 802.11 networks.  First and most important is an OUTSIDE, omni GAIN antenna and mast mounted front end. Check with Ubiquiti  (ubnt.com).  They have quite a bit of compatible equipment and its not too expensive.  Available from Ebay for good prices.  If you only need to cover in one direction, use a sector antenna (180, 120, or 90 degrees).

I have a 5.6gHz link (you are probably using 2.4, but it's an example) over 3 miles in length using this equipment with a full scale signal.

I also have a wide ranging 2.4gHz system, with an outside antenna AND mast mounted 802.11 transceiver right at the antenna, running at the legal limit (which I forget at this moment - I think it's 1/2 watt).  Again, TRANSMITTER power is not the problem - it's receiving those 802.11b devices with a 1/2 inch long antenna, built in to a laptop.  So, antenna gain is king along with receiver sensitivity.

That 802.11 system covers about 1 mile, through trees in some cases, with a usable signal.

There *are* amplifiers available that you can buy legally if you have a ham license.  Check Hyperlink technologies.  But, they won't help too much with receiving those older laptops.  They will help in the laps receiving YOU, and often that is also a weak point because the receivers in the laptops are sometimes poor.  The amplifiers do have a front end amplifier built in.

Anyway, a little more info for you, but the simplest and most cost effective thing you can probably do right up front is to use an outside antenna and a mast mounted front end, and this stuff is definitely available.  Once you find out what you need, go on Ebay and see what you can find!

Regards,

Steve

[WB2EMS]

As Steve says, check out the ubiquity devices. I use the ubiquity bullet, which runs around 800 mw and has an N connector that allows me to connect to real antennas, such as a 6 db gain omnidirectional vertical (or a 24 db parabolic for point to point use). I think the maximum power the FCC allows on a point to multipoint link is about +36 dbm, or 4 watts ERP. 800 mw and 6 db gain omni fits under that requirement. You can mount the bullet right up at the antenna so no feedline loss, and power it over the ethernet cat5 connection to it using a power injector. I think the whole setup cost under $100 including the injector.

You can also get a radio PCMCIA card to fit your laptop or computer that has a real external antenna connector, usually an MCX style, and then get a cable that adapts from that to the N connector and a real antenna. That would allow outlying devices to have a high gain antenna directed back at a centrally located omni at the house. That helps overcome the low power of the computer radio (some of the cards have 100 mw or more output) and the poor antenna in the computer. The limiting factor in these links is how well the router can hear the distant computer.

LOS is what you want between the devices, but you can blast through foliage to some extent. As I recall, it's about 3-4 db loss per meter of foliage due to bulk absorption and specular reflection. The reflection goes way up when the leaves are wet though. We used to have a 900 mhz link that I set up from the U to an equine lab on a hill nearby that blasted through a hedgerow of pine trees about 100 foot tall. When it was dry, the link worked fine. When we'd have a downpour like a summer thunderstorm, we'd sometimes lose the link for 3-4 hours till the trees dripped dry. They asked if I could fix that and I said sure, let me use your chainsaw. They decided to live with the occasional outages.    Eventually someone ponied up for fiber and it became a non-issue.

[WA1GFZ]

Wrap some wire around the router or antenna and extend the antenna with a wire. I found our router connects to my daughter's lap top better if it is up off the floor or desk. I have it on a window sill.
Another trick is a passive repeater.
Hang a wire out a window. We did passive repeaters in malls for the cops when I worked for skrotorola so their protables would hit the repeaters when they went below street level.

[k4kyv]

Thanks for all the suggestions. You have given me some good ideas.

My present router is a cheap little $20 one Diane bought so she could use her work laptop at home. All she cared about was getting it to work in the next room.  It's G protocol. So is the wireless adaptor on my daughter's old desktop she left here that  I plan to use as a spare machine. My laptop is ony 1 1/2 years old.  I haven't been able to find its protocol capability listed under device properties, but it probably works with either n or g protocol. The internet "radio" that I bought at Dayton talks only to g protocol. So I need a 802.11 router with external antenna connection that still works G without compromise even if is N capable.

Right now, the best I get in the shack is 1 bar, and about 50% of the time I lose the connection altogether.  The same with some rooms in the house. One problem is the metal roof on the house, which makes an excellent shield for everything (cell phone, GPS, cordless phone, etc). I have seen routers with two antennas that supposedly operate in diversity mode. Perhaps I should connect two external antennas, one on the roof to cover the shack and outdoor areas, and the other, inside the house, under the metal roof. I don't know if I could find a simple splitter that wouldn't introduce too much signal loss both on TX and RX at 2.4 GHz. Wonder what coax would work best? I'd say RG-59 would be a good dummy load at that frequency.

I recall about a year ago, the routers in the local store had 3 standard ratings for coverage, indicated by a little logo on the box. Last time I checked, a few weeks ago, I didn't see those rating logos any more, and the  guy in the store didn't have any more of a clue than a Radio Shack sales-clerk what I was talking about. I assume the ones rated for greater range run more power, but maybe they just have a more sensitive receiver, or perhaps both.

I suspect most of the routers typically sold in the store for Joe Bloe Consumer are deliberately designed for limited range, for a house on a city lot with other houses within a radius of 100 ft or less, where you would want to keep your range short for interference and security reasons. In my situation, I have acres of terrain, multiple buildings with the nearest adjacent house over 1000 ft. away, so I could use more ERP without undue security/interference concerns. 800 mw should be plenty of power for the transmitter.  I'll check out Ubiquity devices.

[steve_qix]

You can use more than one wireless access point.  You configure them to use different "channels".  In this way, they don't interfere with each other.  If the wireless device(s) is/are assigning IP addresses (DHCP) you will need to use a different DHCP address pool for each device.  If they are really operating as true bridges and you have another DHCP server somewhere (perhaps in your router), you're all set.

Most wireless devices can assign DHCP addresses whether being used as a router or a bridge.  You really only want ONE actual *router* in your simple network.  This router will route packets to/from your upstream provider's network from/to your local area network, and this router will presumably assign IP addresses as well.  The router will most likely be a NAT (Network Address Translation) gateway, and will route your non-routable addresses (192.168.0.0/16, 172.16.0.0, 10.0.0.0/8, etc.) using NAT to the Internet.

In one of the buildings here in Townsend, I have 6 wireless devices configured as bridges (they can be routers or bridges), operating on different channels, and covering the entire large, stone and steel building.  Works great!

[WB2EMS]

Don, how far are you from the router, and what is the construction of your house? 2x4 and gypsum wallboard? Or perhaps an older and more sturdily constructed house? We did an install on the 'Prez Res' here and found each room was essentially a Faraday cage. Part of the walls were expanded metal mesh with plaster pressed through them forming an effective metal shield between rooms. We had to put 7 wireless access points throughout the house to get the coverage he desired. A similar exercise was run to get effective celluar coverage inside.

Give us a clue about the construction of the house, that might lead to some different ideas on solutions.

[K3ZS]

If I remember right, Radio Shack and other places used to sell a 2.4GHz Yagi to extend the range for this purpose.   I have seen the hacker journals where they make an antenna out of a coffee can as a reflector to a dipole to snoop around WIFI spots.

[Blaine N1GTU]

wow you all made this a bit overcomplicated, if you need more coverage get wireless access points, not more routers.
use the same SSID and encryption on all access points.
they will pass DHCP through them.
if they are G then do what steve says and space the channels apart.
also you can still connect to N with G devices, i do it all the time, almost all my stuff is N except for a few things and the N router allows my older G computers to connect up.
I have 2 WAP's that connect up to my main router, as i walk around the house i can see the signal drop then switch over to the stronger (closer) access point.

[Steve - K4HX]

Just to be clear – WiFi and 802.11x are not the same thing. Wifi is not a standard; it is a trademark of the WiFi alliance and is only found on WiFi certified products (those that pass the Wifi cert process to ensure interoperability, etc). You can have an 802.11x device that is not WiFi certified.

The WI-FI problem is the mix of 802.11b, g and n (and WI-MAX).  Your 802.11b S.U.s (subscriber units) will give you the most problems.

[kb3wbb]

I use a Trendnet TEW -638APB access point to extend the wireless from the router. Right now I'm maintaining a connection at well over 100'.

http://www.trendnet.com/products/features.asp?featureid=39

Larry

[KX5JT]

Blaine is right.  I have an N-router which was necessary for bufferless Netflix movies on the Xbox360 and all my existing G stuff works with it no problem.  N routers are the best bang for the buck at the moment.  My new VAIO notebook supports N and I get 130Mbs in nearby rooms.  

I've seen directional yagis for sale, of course you need to have an antenna connection on the router, but I bet pointing a couple yagis at each other between line of site buildings with an access point router in the schoolhouse shack would be an awesome solution... again, a small outlay of cash though.

(build the yagis yourself Don, you have the knowledge, heck use wire coathangers for the elements!)

[KX5JT]

$13.68 each SHIPPED

http://gb.suntekstore.com/High-Gain-16dBi-2-4GHz-Wifi-Yagi-Antenna-RP__SMA-.html

[Mike/W8BAC]

Don

I suspect if you used a dual diversity type router and split the antennas (one inside, one outside) that you might run into problems. The voting receiver might listen to one or the other receive path and if the wife is on line the receiver may only listen to it if her computer signal is stronger. I also suspect you will need some very high quality coax and fittings to keep loss to a minimum. I'm just thinking out loud here.

I often wonder why when I see these dual diversity type modems the installers always have the antennas pointed the same way, down. I see them often in office buildings mounted on the ceilings with the antennas straight down. The antennas are usually on a small ball swivel and can be moved to about any angle. I think one vertical and one horizontal would make more sense. My two cents worth.

[KA8WTK]

I ended up with a Wireless Access Point (WAP) in the shack and one in the house. The shack and house are close enough I ran a CAT5 cable through the utility PVC pipe to connect them.
If I were as far away as you are, those Dish Network antennas you see on the curb trash days should work pretty good as a high gain directional link with an antenna on them. You could also put a dongle (USB wireless adapter) at the focal point and aim at the house. Just run a USB cable to your shack computer.

[WBear2GCR]

Ok, how to get a PCMIA "wifi" card for my larftop that will let me plug in that nice yagi that KX5JT posted??

(or maybe a USB "wifi" dongle thingie?)

Also, I was under the impression that these devices used TWO antennas, one for receive and one for transmit?? No?

Also guys, the alphabet soup ur throwing about is confusing to us appliance ops out here...

                     _-_-bear

[KX5JT]

That yagi plugs into sma connectors.  Many of the routers have them, many dont. *shrug*

[WBear2GCR]

laptop... I want monster receive/xmit ability... no sma connections on my plug-in PCMIA wifi card - anyone know if I can open the case, and kludge in some SMA connectors???

But again, I thought these things used two ants??

Anyone know?

                        _-_-bear

[KX5JT]

laptop... I want monster receive/xmit ability... no sma connections on my plug-in PCMIA wifi card - anyone know if I can open the case, and kludge in some SMA connectors???

But again, I thought these things used two ants??

Anyone know?

                        _-_-bear

Wireless routers use between one and four antennas, most having one or two.  Not sure about opening a case and finding the antenna connections.

Here is a helpful link http://www.ehow.com/how_2091720_add-extra-antennas-wireless-router.html But if you're really serious, you can find adapters/routers cheap enough these days by shopping a bit online for ones that have the sma connections

[WBear2GCR]

the router is on the send end - the wifi card on my larftop is on the flea on the tail of the dog end.... I want to have a better "look" at the router side, some distance away - without modifying the router side...

               _-_-

[KX5JT]

Got a usb port? Here's a wireless-g with antenna (sma connector).. under 20 bucks to your door...


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833166022&cm_re=usb_wireless_with_antenna-_-33-166-022-_-Product

[WA3VJB]

Yeah it is too inexpensive NOT to buy a piece of hardware with RF connectors already on it.

I'd take stock before buying a yagi, because the beamwidth is so narrow.  The omni gain antennas seem to get the kind of monster range Bear wants, and maybe also that Don is looking for. Neither description sounds like a point-to-point, fixed location situation where it's only one computer distant from the router, and/or that it is always in the same spot.

And with the USB type units,  you can buy extender cables that allow you to position the module away and above the computer. It's a lot easier to extend at USB data rates without feedline loss, than it is for RF at 2.4 GHZ.  As a practical example, we've got a desktop computer that sits in a bin down below in the computer furniture we use.  I ran a USB extension out the back of the furniture and up to the over-bridge shelving to get some altitude. 

That way when the dogs lay down by my feet they don't soak up all the signal.

[WBear2GCR]

Got a usb port? Here's a wireless-g with antenna (sma connector).. under 20 bucks to your door...


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833166022&cm_re=usb_wireless_with_antenna-_-33-166-022-_-Product

Great!


BINGO!


I think the yagi will be fine for my applicaton... super!

Trying a more omini or uni (cardioid) pattern ant, or having one is an option too...

Thanks for the lead!

                         _-_-bear

[W7TFO]

No Wi--Fi in this house.  Our place is a big Faraday cage.  If it ain't on wire, it ain't. 

Well, OK, I have a cordless drill....

That band of freqs up close causes cancer according to the WHO.

Banning in schools is happening in Europe by the Council Parliamentary Assembly.

Same goes for PCS-based phones.  And those electronic blue-eyed cockroaches in you ear, radiating at your brain constantly.

Cell phones are bad enough, courtesy University of Pittsburg Cancer Institute:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4059761/The-Case-for-precaution-in-the-Use-of-Cell-Phones

Think twice before bathing your life 24-7 in RF that is now being proven unfriendly to your health.

 

A note from your most friendly luddite.

73DG