came home from work today, Tower down.

[K1JJ]

Don,

OK, I see. I didn't realize there was a claim/damage involved. I thought you just called them cuz you were worried about walking on a certain part of the roof....

As I said in a previous post, most times when looking back in hindsight, a damage claim usually gets resolved so that we end up with a much better replacement than before. When I was 16, I had a GTO that was sideswiped by a drunk. He took out the rear quarter panel. With the insurance money I was able to get the panel repaired and also get a rubbed out lacquer paint job on the whole car. I had to shop around, of course. It was a great experience.  I'll bet Clark ends up with something really FB.

T

[KA1ZGC]

No ham tower would have taken this micro burst.  You guys can talk about shotty installs all you want. The tower was very solid and is a free standing tower. Guy ropes are not required on this model at this level.

...if the tower is attached to a concrete pad. Yours was just sitting on the ground. The manufacturer could not possibly have had that in mind when they published the numbers they did.

We all feel bad for you, seriously, but quite a few of us have put serious hours in on much bigger towers than yours, and know what it takes to keep them upright. We're not to blame for your tower coming down, so getting mad at us is unjustified.

You've been given plenty of good advice on keeping the next tower upright for much longer, and your insurer has agreed to pay for it. If I were you, I'd focus on that instead of trying to justify the construction of a tower that's currently laying across your driveway.

Besides, if your insurance company reads this thread, they might change their minds about covering you. Making a stink about it may come back to bite you in the ass. Jump on it before they back out! Get that check in your hand, and get the next tower erected. This one's gone, but the next one can put it to shame.

[ke7trp]

I am not sure where I confused you.  The Tower base was in concrete. The Tower legs broke off the base. The concrete is still in the ground.

Tonight, We cleaned up the rest of the mess. The Hardline is all out and coiled up.  The rest of the vertical was broken down and tossed out. The tower was pulled to the side. Three sections are good. The bottom is junk and the top is junk.  Maybe I can use it for a small 6 meter beam at 20ft.

The Zep got strung out to the fence.  Not very high. The other side is still in the tree up 50 ft.  So one side is 50 and one side is maybe 10.  To my total suprise, I am full scale into California on the globe king!  At least I can enjoy myself in the comming months of planning with some low band action. 

The plan right now is to get the TMM-541ss tower.  Its a crank over which I want and its only 41 ft tall up and 12 ft down. Add in a 5ft mast and it will be 46ft. I am plan on putting the wire up there and a small Triband beam. 

On the other side of the property I am going to install my estate sale special, a Gap Voyager vertical.  This gives me three options on some bands and two for the low bands.

C

[KA1ZGC]

I am not sure where I confused you.  The Tower base was in concrete. The Tower legs broke off the base. The concrete is still in the ground.

You're right, I stand corrected. I've had a few different tower conversations this week, and my wires got crossed. My bad. Sorry about that.

I'm sure you'll take the opportunity to loft a truly manly erection.

Still glad that none of you got hurt. Good luck.

[W1ATR]

Time for a 200' LUSO crank up.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LKOjJeOsOA

[W3SLK]

Thom said:

You're right, I stand corrected. I've had a few different tower conversations this week, and my wires got crossed.

That's easy to do when you are in a lot of 'aerial discussions.' 

[ke7trp]

Its ok. We all make mistakes. 

Does anyone have any experience with the TMM 541 crank up tower? or UStower in general?   

We spent another couple hours clearing the mess up. The tower is worse then I thought.  When layed down flat on the ground, the center is off the ground about 4 to 5 inches over the span.  Each section is tweaked a little. 

The mast is out, The coax and hardline is all out.  The old antenna was trashed, The Ground radials and lines for the inverted L are all coiled up.  I was tired of walking on the Zep antenna so I walked it out and tied it to the Fence.  The other side is still in the tree. 

To my total suprise, I keyed up last night and found I was full scale in California!  The low end points near cali.  Maybe that is why?   Also the leg that is on the fence is now straight out with no turn down.  From 55ft. down to 10 on one side and 55 on the other, Seems to have little effect.  I am sure happy.  It means I can still use the radio while we fix the house and antennas.

C

[W2PFY]

The metal roof was approximately  double the cost of the asphalt shingle job.

Good story Don. Wow the insurance mafia did you good

I often wondered about metal roofs. I thought they would be less expensive than shingles? My camp has about a 33 degree pitch and snow would probably slide off a metal roof like greased snot.

Clark, sorry to hear about you damages. I know you'll put things back stronger than ever judging from how you build you ham gear

[WQ9E]

I often wondered about metal roofs. I thought they would be less expensive than shingles? My camp has about a 33 degree pitch and snow would probably slide off a metal roof like greased snot.

When we added a master bedroom addition we went with a metal roof and had the existing roof replaced with matching metal at the same time.  It was slightly more expensive than shingles but not too much, around 20% increase as I recall.  The installers could have finished in one day easily if the wind had not picked up.   In good weather it goes on very quickly.  The general contractor did tear off and prep before they arrived.  It is pretty light so if you have a single layer (or two) of shingles in good shape it can go on top of the existing roof.

Snow and ice slides off very quickly.  You wouldn't want to be standing near the house when the ice starts to melt because all you hear is a sudden whoosh followed by a crash.  Our new college of business building at the university also has a steep metal roof and one entrance was closed last year due to the danger of falling ice.  You definitely do not want to stand on the roof when it is even slightly damp because it is like standing on ice.  Our contractor was standing on the roof installing the shutters after the siding was installed and a slight mist started and had he not grabbed a downspout he would have fallen off the roof.

The metal has been on for 5 years now, still looks like new and is undamaged through windstorms that took a lot of shingles off nearby houses.  The increase in rain noise is very minimal but we do have a very thick layer of insulation. 

[KA1ZGC]

Not to hijack the thread too much, my folks put a black standing-seam metal roof on their house a few years back, as well. It sheds snow like a cat sheds fur. Quite the avalanche when it comes down, but unlike an avalanche, it frequently starts at the bottom. Once a bit breaks off the end, that's all the disturbance that's needed to break surface tension and send the whole column down with a "WHUMP" that shakes the whole house when it lands.

The downside is that its a four-sided roof, so there's no "safe" entry/exit in the winter. You ALWAYS need to look up. My dad also learned the hard way that you need to position your gutters slightly below the roof line so they don't wind up getting ripped off the house when the roof sheds snow.

A worthwhile investment, though. He's getting too old to climb the roof and replaces shingles in the freezing cold several times a year, and I'm not around to do it for him anymore.

...but I digress.

[WA1GFZ]

I asked my contractor about metal roof. He told me you need to strip the roof and add furing strips. I found good quality metal roofing cost was a lot more expensive. There is cheap stuff out there also. You do not want any screws showing because the sun will break down gaskets in time and cause leaks around the screws. Then you really should not walk on the finished roof.
It sure makes sense though but stainless steel would be a lot nicer.
 

[KA1ZGC]

The steel for this roof is anodized black. It was solid black when it came off the roll, and stayed solid black where the seams were bent into it, no cracking or stressing of the color. Whatever is on it ain't letting go.

There are no exposed screws or nails of any kind anywhere on the roof.

It costs more than an asphalt roof, but the asphalt roof my folks put on the house back in the late 80s was already deteriorating after 20 years, and the contractor on that job was a good close friend of the family and used good quality shingles. This roof will last a whole lot longer than that.

Another factor for them is that there are no wind obstructions for 50 miles from the west to the northeast and all bearings in between, the prevailing winds are out of the northwest, and the front of the house faces north. The house was shedding shingles every winter for the last five years or so before the steel roof.

So for them, it was a good investment, but that doesn't make it suitable for everyone, obviously.

No, seriously, I'm really not trying to hijack this thread! 

[W3SLK]

Speaking of roofs and snow falling from them. What are those gizmos that you generally saw at the 'foot' of a slate roof? They kind of looked like a door stop. I always thought they were there to difuse the snow. I wonder why you couldn't incorporate something like that on a metal-roofed house?

[w1vtp]

Speaking of roofs and snow falling from them. What are those gizmos that you generally saw at the 'foot' of a slate roof? They kind of looked like a door stop. I always thought they were there to difuse the snow. I wonder why you couldn't incorporate something like that on a metal-roofed house?

Depends on the slope of the roof.  My dad built a house that had a slate roof (which he did himself).  When the snow let go it sounded almost as though a train was passing by.  What a rumble!  That's what those thingies were for - except we didn't care as the entrance was not under the roof - never figured out why people had entrances under where a slate roof dumped its goodies

Al

[W1ATR]

Speaking of roofs and snow falling from them. What are those gizmos that you generally saw at the 'foot' of a slate roof? They kind of looked like a door stop. I always thought they were there to difuse the snow. I wonder why you couldn't incorporate something like that on a metal-roofed house?

They are called 'Snow brakes'. When used over an entrance way, they are V shaped to direct sliding snow and ice off to the sides.

[Fred k2dx]

My guess is that having such a long mast extending above the lightweight tower was what caused the failure. Attaching the guys at the top of the mast put a lot of downward stress on the pipe. The horizonal force becomes downward force.

Using rope for guys probably allowed some serious shaking to start as the rope stretched and the mast began bending. Note the almost 90* bend in the mast right at the top of the tower. Could this be the result of compression?

I would suggest not putting such a long mast on your replacement tower, get a tower of the required height and guy it per the manufacturer's specs.
Maybe you could find a local ham who is experienced in commercial towers to advise you in planning the new instalation.

 

[ke7trp]

The tower was guyed at the top of the mast and at the top of the tower.  The three tower legs where coroded all the way through.

C

[K1JJ]

The tower was guyed at the top of the mast and at the top of the tower.  The three tower legs where coroded all the way through.
C

Clark,

All the way thru?  The whole tower or just at the bottom?

If at the bottom only, did the tower legs at the bottom sit in such a way for water (condensation) to leak out? This can be done by letting the leg openings sit on large size gravel under the concrete or having ~1/8" holes in each leg before entering the concrete, in the case of a self supporter.  If the legs are soild steel, then no need for this.

A pier pin assy uses accomodates this too.

Water, especially if it finds its way in through the joints via wind, etc, can wreak havoc it it pools in the legs at the base.

T

[ke7trp]

The original owner of the house installed the tower. It was here when I purchased the home.  It looks like it was set in about 5ft, Then Concrete dumped into the hole. There was several ft of earth ontop of the concrete. The tower was probably used and old when he put it in 10 years back.  I think the real downfall here was the 100 mph wipping winds. I dont think any kind of small tower like this would have taken it. People lost entire homes here and huge oaks and pines came down all over.

Good news!  The insurance company is paying for everything. The check is in the mail. Now to decide exactly what to put up!  I am thinking about the UStower 41 ft crank up/tilt over tower.  Do you guys think its worth the expense to go to the 55 ot 60? I want to get a Triband beam like my Brothers M2 or maybe his old Force 12 will work.  Then, I would like to run the zep, inverted V style at the top of the tower. 

Tomorrow, We are installing the first of my Two GAP voyager verticals. I am tossing around installing two so I can phase them. I cant find to much information on how to do this so far in my research.

C

[KA1ZGC]

The original owner of the house installed the tower. It was here when I purchased the home.  It looks like it was set in about 5ft, Then Concrete dumped into the hole. There was several ft of earth ontop of the concrete. The tower was probably used and old when he put it in 10 years back.

Well, good, then calling it a JS install isn't an insult on you. 

The earth atop the pad gives me pause. Even in your arid climate, that gives moisture a place to gather around the tower legs. It wouldn't take much, either, since very few places in the world have pH-neutral soil. A tiny trace would be enough to allow acid/alkaline action to start working on the metal.

Like Tom said, if there was no escape route for condensation inside the legs, you have your culprit. It eventually would have come down in any wind. You're fortunate that a windstorm took it down, your insurer is picking up the bill.

I dont think any kind of small tower like this would have taken it. People lost entire homes here and huge oaks and pines came down all over.

That's debatable. I've seen some pretty scrawny towers take some serious wind abuse. Depends on the workmanship put into the erection, mostly. If your tower had proper drainage and strong guys, it may well have held, but we'll never know for sure.

Good news!  The insurance company is paying for everything. The check is in the mail. Now to decide exactly what to put up!  I am thinking about the UStower 41 ft crank up/tilt over tower.  Do you guys think its worth the expense to go to the 55 ot 60? I want to get a Triband beam like my Brothers M2 or maybe his old Force 12 will work.  Then, I would like to run the zep, inverted V style at the top of the tower. 

The difference between 40' and 60' is huge on 75 and 40. 40' on 75M will give you lots of high-angle energy, and little-to-nothing towards the horizon. Get that up to 60' and you start pulling in a lot more medium- and some low-angle energy. Ditto 40, except you'll be going from 1/3 wavelength above ground to 1/2 wavelength, an even bigger gain in low-angle energy.

"Worth it" depends on your (insurer's) wallet, of course, but from a technical standpoint I'd say "yes".

Tomorrow, We are installing the first of my Two GAP voyager verticals. I am tossing around installing two so I can phase them. I cant find to much information on how to do this so far in my research.

If he's still in Tuscon, Dean WA1KNX would be the guy to ask. I honestly don't know if he's in Arizona or Vermont these days, but he had a two-vertical and three-vertical array in AZ. He gave up on three after a while, but on both arrays he was quite loud here in Maine on 75 in the overnight hours, and we had many a late-night QSO during the winter.

[WD5JKO]

The earth atop the pad gives me pause. Even in your arid climate, that gives moisture a place to gather around the tower legs. It wouldn't take much either, since very few places in the world have pH-neutral soil. A tiny trace would be enough to allow acid/alkaline action to start working on the metal.

Sometimes we hams use salt to boost the ground conductivity of a grounding system. The folks who purchase, or upgrade to a salt water pool (like me), are getting a lesson on electrolysis and corrosion. The constant splashout of 3000ppm salt water into the earth and surrounding area eventually lead to massive problems as the soil salt concentration builds up. Here is just one:

http://pages.prodigy.net/jcandela/Salt/Picture%20004.jpg

The picture was taken from a hotel I recently stayed at.

This picture might also occur with a tower installation similar to what Clark describes. Any current flow between the tower into the cement and the house ground would eventually cause issues from electrolysis. This is similar to pool owners who have a potential difference between the house ground, and the pool ground. This doesn't matter until one goes to a salt water pool. The salt water becomes the electrolyte.

Jim
Wd5JKO

[k4kyv]

You know all about that if you ever owned an automobile and lived anywhere it snows in the winter, especially in the 1980's or before.

Nowadays they use better coatings on the metal parts of cars, but it used to be that a brand new car would rust out in just a few years, despite the best efforts to keep it clean, if driven in road salt.

Salt rust used to force people to purchase a new car every few years, to help keep the economy going. Some jurisdictions will fail the safety inspection if there is even a tiny amount of body rust, as if a rusty door panel or small hole anywhere on the body would pose any kind of safety hazard.

[KA1ZGC]

Nowadays they use better coatings on the metal parts of cars, but it used to be that a brand new car would rust out in just a few years, despite the best efforts to keep it clean, if driven in road salt.

Rusty Jones was a freakin' pansy.

Unfortunately, they've also "improved" the garbage they spew onto the roads. A lot of municipalities in New England have started using a saline-type solution suspended in a liquid.

It's becoming common for wires to corrode from the inside out around here, as the wicking action of stranded wire sucks the salt solution right up into the wires. You can power-wash your undercarriage all you want, there's no getting it out once it's in.

[K1JJ]

I was once on a crew who took down a 300' ROHN 45  tower.  Imagine that - 300' of Rohn 45. Anyway, it was erected intially as a replacement for a similar Rohn 45 that fell down within a few year of erection. Seems the farmer had been dumping his old batteries into the ground at the same point where a main guy wire anchor came out the the ground. Over only a short few years the 1" galvanized solid steel rod had eaten away and dropped the tower.. 

However, I have a soild steel guy rod (5/8" diameter) that has been there since 1986 for the 150' guyed Rohn 45. The last 3" is dirt and the rod shows no galvanizing, but is not rusted thru in any way at the ground level. So soild steel can take the abuse in some cases of dirt. It shud be inspected every few years to be sure.

Clark -  I would put up a Tennadyne log periodic, the largest you can buy. The 30' boom 10-20M may be a good buy. Forget the traps and interlaced Yagis.  Unless you want to stack mono-banders, I feel the log periodic is the way to go. Interaction, trap loses and other factors are the reason.

The crank up tower is a good idea if you do not want to climb much, but for strength and dependablity (and simplicity with less cost) go with a standard Rohn 45 or 55 guyed tower on a pier pin and be done with it.  You can get away with two sets of guys for 60' and have a bullet-proof installation - and 60' high is the minimum working height for reasonable 75M work.


T

[ke7trp]

Alright.  I am going to go look at a 65ft Triax a guy put up and never used. My brother said it looks like new with NO rust. I can have it if I crane it out of there.  I REALLy wanted the crank up option.  Servicing the antenna would be a huge plus for me. 

The Guy that did the install qoute has been installing Rohn for BC and Cell us for 25 years.  He told me it would be pennys on the dollar to just get Rohn 55 up and that he could do the job in 3 days.  One day to dig and rebar. One day to concrete and level.  couple weeks drying time, Then 1 more day to put the tower up. 

Its funny you mention the salt. This tower and ground WAS salted.  When I moved in there where BAGS of salt for a water purification system out there all over the base.  I am sure that did not help matters. Its a very common trick here in AZ. We are on Rock and there is very little soil. 

C