Toyota Problem Investigation/Solution Article

[Tom WA3KLR]

Detroit Free Press article on the Toyota problem and investigations:

http://www.freep.com/article/20100416/BUSINESS01/4160356/1002/rss02

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

I like this one from Test and Measurement World.

http://www.tmworld.com/article/453943-Car_or_driver_.php

[WBear2GCR]

yeah, it's those pesky floor mats under the pedals that do it... right.

the next generation that does steer by wire ought to be a hoot.

Tune in soon!

                     _-_-bear

[KF1Z]

What does Toyota have to do with anything...

They making radios now?

[k4kyv]

Well, one of the articles mentions RFI as a possible source of the problem.

[KA0HCP]

Oh boy.  Cosmic rays.  That was always my last fall back at work when I had a computer that died for no reason. 

If they are trotting that idea around then they have no clue what the problem is.

b.

p.s.  There is actually a published article about cosmic rays and their effect on PC failures.

[N8LGU]

This digicrap is going to be the end of us.

[ka3zlr]

I think it's a shame Toyota used to be known for long life runnen gears I don't know.

73

Jack.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

The important part of the article is the paragraph below.

So, car or driver? We’re wasting time asking, reports one Toyota owner, Robert Wright (Ref. 3). Expressing sympathy for victims of accidents that may have been related to unattended acceleration, he nevertheless writes that driving one of these suspect Toyotas raises your chances of dying in a car crash over the next two years from 0.01907% to 0.01935%, and he says he can live with those odds. As he notes, the money spent addressing the problem could probably save more lives if spent elsewhere.

Too often, our society worries about miniscule changes in risk while completely ignoring big risks. The change above is essentially statistically insignificant. If you were really worried about your safety, you would never get in any car, since your chances of injury or death increase orders of magnitude over the above numbers. Read the book "Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and Its Consequences" for more insight on such craziness. Yes, Buffy, math DOES matter.

[K6JEK]

Awhile back I read an article by the guy who investigated the Audi unexpected acceleration problem in the '80's.  Sure enough it was people pushing the gas when they thought they were hitting the brakes.  When the car did not slow down, they pushed harder, flooring it.  In those moments it seems people don't stop and think maybe they are on the wrong pedal. 

Some clever ergonomics guy should figure out a way that makes it unconsciously obvious which pedal you're on, something unobtrusive that happens all the time.  I don't know what that is or I'd be the clever ergonomics guy.

Steve is right about risk.  My father outlaw used to give us mini-lectures on this subject. He did a lot of work on mathematical risk assessment and had plenty of stories about what people think is risky and what actually is.  We're way off, myself included, I found out.

[WD5JKO]

My son Paul, a university Computer Science senior just made a video (school project) depicting a problem similar to Toyota's UA issue. He is the one that comes in the room at the end with the techno-geek analysis of the black box data following a head on collision fatality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9UxPGyAu4A

Looks like Toyota took option 1 while blaming the UA on option3 (the rug).

Jim
WD5JKO

[flintstone mop]

A pedal confusion ALMOST happened to me in a Corolla. The area for your feet has been reduced significantly and the area is much smaller than what we have been used to in larger cars. During a brain fart one could step on both pedals at the same time.

Fred

[Bill, KD0HG]

Here's something of interest:

A number of years ago the Feds did a survey on airplane accidents and the responses of the pilots.

They found that airplane pilots, in emergencies, almost always responded with control inputs they might have used in a Cessna trainer plane.

When you take your FAA pilot's exam, the instructor puts a hood over your head and puts the plane into a crazy spin of some kind. They pull the rag off and you have a few seconds to get with it and correct the planes flight.

The NTSB found that airplane pilots, faced with a stall or whatever, responded as if they were piloting that first airplane. The same applies to ship's captains on the waters. And probably to a Corolla driver.

There is no substitute for experience.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

With sims, you'd think this would be a thing of the past.

Here's something of interest:

A number of years ago the Feds did a survey on airplane accidents and the responses of the pilots.

They found that airplane pilots, in emergencies, almost always responded with control inputs they might have used in a Cessna trainer plane.

When you take your FAA pilot's exam, the instructor puts a hood over your head and puts the plane into a crazy spin of some kind. They pull the rag off and you have a few seconds to get with it and correct the planes flight.

The NTSB found that airplane pilots, faced with a stall or whatever, responded as if they were piloting that first airplane. The same applies to ship's captains on the waters. And probably to a Corolla driver.

There is no substitute for experience.

[ke7trp]

Nobody thinks its the US Gov knocking down import cars since they own US car makers?

C

[ka3zlr]

 
So,..Ride a Bike,.. at worst you either hit the rear brake or the gear shift lever both slow ya down...

There... no confusion

73

Jack.

[WQ9E]

Nobody thinks its the US Gov knocking down import cars since they own US car makers?

C

That would be the ever popular (and largely clueless) conspiracy theorists...  I guess since the CIA has so much time on their hands (no world problems don't you know, you betcha, wink wink) that they also staged a few accidents just to create the news.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Probably not the CIA. Could be the news media. Remember the fake exploding gas tank "reporting" by NBC?

Nobody thinks its the US Gov knocking down import cars since they own US car makers?

C

That would be the ever popular (and largely clueless) conspiracy theorists...  I guess since the CIA has so much time on their hands (no world problems don't you know, you betcha, wink wink) that they also staged a few accidents just to create the news.

[WQ9E]

Steve,

I have no disagreement that the entertainment industry (formerly the news industry) takes a mixture of 1 to 3% factual information and spins it into something akin to sugar coated excrement.  The media happily provides simple (and often incorrect) explanations of complex events. 

[Superhet66]

If there is any ray of hope it's how obvious the superficial, "whip cream on dogsh*t" news has become. It's an open joke among a wide range of people I'm aquainted with.
The media's contempt for it's audiance will be it's demise. ( I hope   )

NETWORK, 1976:
 
Howard Beale: I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's worth, banks are going bust, shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it. We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TV's while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that's the way it's supposed to be. We know things are bad - worse than bad. They're crazy. It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out anymore. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we are living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, 'Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone.' Well, I'm not gonna leave you alone. I want you to get mad! I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot - I don't want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street. All I know is that first you've got to get mad.
Howard Beale: [shouting] You've got to say, 'I'm a HUMAN BEING, Goddamnit! My life has VALUE!' So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell,
[shouting]
Howard Beale: 'I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!' I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell - 'I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Things have got to change. But first, you've gotta get mad!... You've got to say, 'I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Then we'll figure out what to do about the depression and the inflation and the oil crisis. But first get up out of your chairs, open the window, stick your head out, and yell, and say it:
Howard Beale: [screaming at the top of his lungs] "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!"

[K6JEK]

If there is any ray of hope it's how obvious the superficial, "whip cream on dogsh*t" news has become. It's an open joke among a wide range of people I'm aquainted with.
The media's contempt for it's audience will be it's demise. ( I hope   )

We get the news we want. People would rather be angry than right. Facts just get in the way of the emotional high we get from blaming someone we don't like, the horrible them and the satisfaction of feeling part of the righteous us.

[ka3zlr]

Like always, when we get done with all the rationalizations the problem still exists...
it's still there...

Again nothing fixed, nothing settled...


73

Jack.

[ke7trp]

In order for a solution to exist. A problem has to be established.  Since there is no problem. The next step is a blanket OFF switch fitted to each vehicle.

I am all for this.  A big Red STOP button.  Apparently, We have people on the road that have no idea, you can shift any automatic car in the road today, into neutral and simply pull over. The engine will spin up to a fixed RPM point (called neutral rev limit) and maintain there as you pull over. This will not damage the engine.  If you have an older OBD2 vehicle and not a CAN buss vehicle, The engine will hit a soft rev limiter and bounce off it.  This will not damage the engine either.

Try it, Please, Train your loved ones to remain calm, shift into neutral, pull over to a safe place and turn the key off.  This will allow a safe place for the driver to REMOVE the floor mat from the pedal assembly, then continue on in a safe manner.

Since they hand out drivers licenses to people with no training and no mechanical understanding of the vehicle. We will have accidents like this.
 

C

[ka3zlr]

So we're calling it "Operator Error" then that's the answer..ok

I don't have a stake in this I don't own a Toyota.

I'm not allowed to drive anymore so I'm out Doc pulled my license, I'm not qualified to make an answer.

73

Jack.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Incorrect is one thing, but made up and staged are quite another.

Steve,

I have no disagreement that the entertainment industry (formerly the news industry) takes a mixture of 1 to 3% factual information and spins it into something akin to sugar coated excrement.  The media happily provides simple (and often incorrect) explanations of complex events.