The AM Forum

Detroit Free Press article on the Toyota problem and investigations:

http://www.freep.com/article/20100416/BUSINESS01/4160356/1002/rss02

I like this one from Test and Measurement World.

http://www.tmworld.com/article/453943-Car_or_driver_.php

yeah, it's those pesky floor mats under the pedals that do it... right.

the next generation that does steer by wire ought to be a hoot.

Tune in soon!

                     _-_-bear

What does Toyota have to do with anything...

They making radios now?

Well, one of the articles mentions RFI as a possible source of the problem.

Oh boy.  Cosmic rays.  That was always my last fall back at work when I had a computer that died for no reason.  :)

If they are trotting that idea around then they have no clue what the problem is.

b.

p.s.  There is actually a published article about cosmic rays and their effect on PC failures.

This digicrap is going to be the end of us.

I think it's a shame Toyota used to be known for long life runnen gears I don't know.

73

Jack.

The important part of the article is the paragraph below.




Too often, our society worries about miniscule changes in risk while completely ignoring big risks. The change above is essentially statistically insignificant. If you were really worried about your safety, you would never get in any car, since your chances of injury or death increase orders of magnitude over the above numbers. Read the book "Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and Its Consequences" for more insight on such craziness. Yes, Buffy, math DOES matter.

Awhile back I read an article by the guy who investigated the Audi unexpected acceleration problem in the '80's.  Sure enough it was people pushing the gas when they thought they were hitting the brakes.  When the car did not slow down, they pushed harder, flooring it.  In those moments it seems people don't stop and think maybe they are on the wrong pedal. 

Some clever ergonomics guy should figure out a way that makes it unconsciously obvious which pedal you're on, something unobtrusive that happens all the time.  I don't know what that is or I'd be the clever ergonomics guy.

Steve is right about risk.  My father outlaw used to give us mini-lectures on this subject. He did a lot of work on mathematical risk assessment and had plenty of stories about what people think is risky and what actually is.  We're way off, myself included, I found out.

My son Paul, a university Computer Science senior just made a video (school project) depicting a problem similar to Toyota's UA issue. He is the one that comes in the room at the end with the techno-geek analysis of the black box data following a head on collision fatality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9UxPGyAu4A

Looks like Toyota took option 1 while blaming the UA on option3 (the rug).

Jim
WD5JKO

A pedal confusion ALMOST happened to me in a Corolla. The area for your feet has been reduced significantly and the area is much smaller than what we have been used to in larger cars. During a brain fart one could step on both pedals at the same time.

Fred

Here's something of interest:

A number of years ago the Feds did a survey on airplane accidents and the responses of the pilots.

They found that airplane pilots, in emergencies, almost always responded with control inputs they might have used in a Cessna trainer plane.

When you take your FAA pilot's exam, the instructor puts a hood over your head and puts the plane into a crazy spin of some kind. They pull the rag off and you have a few seconds to get with it and correct the planes flight.

The NTSB found that airplane pilots, faced with a stall or whatever, responded as if they were piloting that first airplane. The same applies to ship's captains on the waters. And probably to a Corolla driver.

There is no substitute for experience.

With sims, you'd think this would be a thing of the past.

Nobody thinks its the US Gov knocking down import cars since they own US car makers?

C

 
So,..Ride a Bike,.. at worst you either hit the rear brake or the gear shift lever both slow ya down... :)

There... no confusion 8)

73

Jack.

That would be the ever popular (and largely clueless) conspiracy theorists...  I guess since the CIA has so much time on their hands (no world problems don't you know, you betcha, wink wink) that they also staged a few accidents just to create the news.

Probably not the CIA. Could be the news media. Remember the fake exploding gas tank "reporting" by NBC?

Steve,

I have no disagreement that the entertainment industry (formerly the news industry) takes a mixture of 1 to 3% factual information and spins it into something akin to sugar coated excrement.  The media happily provides simple (and often incorrect) explanations of complex events. 

If there is any ray of hope it's how obvious the superficial, "whip cream on dogsh*t" news has become. It's an open joke among a wide range of people I'm aquainted with.
The media's contempt for it's audiance will be it's demise. ( I hope  ::) )

NETWORK, 1976:
 
Howard Beale: I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's worth, banks are going bust, shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it. We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TV's while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that's the way it's supposed to be. We know things are bad - worse than bad. They're crazy. It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out anymore. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we are living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, 'Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone.' Well, I'm not gonna leave you alone. I want you to get mad! I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot - I don't want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street. All I know is that first you've got to get mad.
Howard Beale: [shouting] You've got to say, 'I'm a HUMAN BEING, Goddamnit! My life has VALUE!' So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell,
[shouting]
Howard Beale: 'I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!' I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell - 'I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Things have got to change. But first, you've gotta get mad!... You've got to say, 'I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Then we'll figure out what to do about the depression and the inflation and the oil crisis. But first get up out of your chairs, open the window, stick your head out, and yell, and say it:
Howard Beale: [screaming at the top of his lungs] "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!"

We get the news we want. People would rather be angry than right. Facts just get in the way of the emotional high we get from blaming someone we don't like, the horrible them and the satisfaction of feeling part of the righteous us.

Like always, when we get done with all the rationalizations the problem still exists...
it's still there...

Again nothing fixed, nothing settled...


73

Jack.

In order for a solution to exist. A problem has to be established.  Since there is no problem. The next step is a blanket OFF switch fitted to each vehicle.

I am all for this.  A big Red STOP button.  Apparently, We have people on the road that have no idea, you can shift any automatic car in the road today, into neutral and simply pull over. The engine will spin up to a fixed RPM point (called neutral rev limit) and maintain there as you pull over. This will not damage the engine.  If you have an older OBD2 vehicle and not a CAN buss vehicle, The engine will hit a soft rev limiter and bounce off it.  This will not damage the engine either.

Try it, Please, Train your loved ones to remain calm, shift into neutral, pull over to a safe place and turn the key off.  This will allow a safe place for the driver to REMOVE the floor mat from the pedal assembly, then continue on in a safe manner.

Since they hand out drivers licenses to people with no training and no mechanical understanding of the vehicle. We will have accidents like this.
 

C

So we're calling it "Operator Error" then that's the answer..ok :)

I don't have a stake in this I don't own a Toyota.

I'm not allowed to drive anymore so I'm out Doc pulled my license, I'm not qualified to make an answer.

73

Jack.

Incorrect is one thing, but made up and staged are quite another.

The BIG RED button has been tried...with tragic results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT4YbO_1mvA&feature=related

I do like how they got everybody jumping, amazing Mechanical Failure and operator Error

73

Jack.

Steve,  

I definitely agree with you that the made up/staged (like the exploding gas tank) incident was definitely out of bounds.  But I am not ready to give them a pass on incorrect if it comes from truly incompetent/careless/sloppy reporting.  For example, three different scenarios where you are a juror:

a.  A driver purposely ran over a pedestrian (i.e. staged by driver)
b.  A severely drunk driver ran over a pedestrian in the cross walk. (incompetent and careless driver)
c.  A driver ran over a pedestrian who stepped into the street from between two parked cars (not in crosswalk).

If I am on the jury, in scenario c I would vote and lobby for the driver to get a "pass".  For a and b the driver is deep trouble because at some point extremely callous behavior is as bad as intent from my harsh point of view.  Back to the news, ignorance and laziness is not a good excuse for some of the garbage that passes for news today.

Enough of the pretty talking heads; I want a smart, involved, and ugly newsperson :)

I agree. The result of sloppy/lazy/stupid is just as bad. However, I don't want the reporter involved. They need to be a dispassionate (not about their craft but the story) and disinterested party. Otherwise they become part of the story instead of reporting.

Actually the cosmic rays suggestion isn't far fetched at all. With nanometer geometries in most of the new microscontroller CPUs, they are not as immune as the old 8088s and Pentiums of decades ago. Take a google at Single Event Upset, for a sample of the work being done in this area.

ADD THIS TO THE FIX-IT LIST

TORRANCE, Calif., April 28, 2010 – Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., today announced it will conduct a voluntary safety recall on approximately 50,000 early-2003 Model-Year Toyota Sequoia sport utility vehicles to upgrade program logic in its Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) system.
 
The VSC system can help control a loss of traction in turns as a result of front or rear tire slippage during cornering.  In vehicles without the upgrade, the VSC system could, in limited situations, activate at low speed (approximately 9 mph) for a few seconds after acceleration from a stopped position and, as a result, the vehicle may not accelerate as quickly as the driver expects.  There have been no reported injuries or accidents as a result of this condition.
 
Toyota instituted a running production change during the 2003 model year and published a Technical Service Bulletin to address this issue when it was first identified in fall 2003.  Since that time, Toyota has been responding to individual owner concerns by replacing the Skid Control Engine Control Unit (ECU) in Sequoias impacted by this condition.  Of the approximately 50,000 vehicles included in this recall, approximately half have already been serviced under warranty.

---

Source:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-announces-voluntary-recall-157593.aspx?link_page_rss=157593&siteid=DMG_rss_201004_RLA_explan_toynew_Toyota+Vehicles%3A+Toyota+Announces+Voluntary+Recall+on+2003+Model-Year+Sequoia+to+Upgrade+Program+Logic+in+Vehicle+Stability+Control+System (http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-announces-voluntary-recall-157593.aspx?link_page_rss=157593&siteid=DMG_rss_201004_RLA_explan_toynew_Toyota+Vehicles%3A+Toyota+Announces+Voluntary+Recall+on+2003+Model-Year+Sequoia+to+Upgrade+Program+Logic+in+Vehicle+Stability+Control+System)

maybe you would be happy moving to japan.
One of the guys I work with owns one of those overpriced crap boxes
His neighbors wanted to run him out of town because his alarm was going off all hours of the night.

I had one GM vehicle. That was enough. That thing spent lots of hours in and out of service. I remember once shifting from reverse to drive and, the shift arm, which was mounted on the steering column, wound up loose in my hand. Had to bang on the windows to get the motors for the windows to work. The last Chrysler Corp car I owned was a 80 Plymouth. A real dog. Would never consider a Ford product. My neighbor's Chevy alarm system periodically goes off between 3 and 4 AM. Service department claims each time he brings it in that its been finally fixed. My Toyota Sienna is a pleasure to drive. My Toyota Celica gave great driving pleasure for over 200K miles. My wife's 89 Corolla, which we sold to a neighbor in 2004, is still running great. My wife loves her Nissan Altima. Don't need to move to Japan to get a great car. All of our current cars were made here in the U. S.

I had the motion sensor on my made-in-Sweden Volvo disconnected and the alarm still went off.  I then had the whole alarm disconnected.  My neighbor's BMW's  alarm goes off on hot days.  At least that's not in the dead of night.  Car alarms are worse than useless.

W5HRO hit the nail on the head. Its pretty blatant whats happening, and I don't need to elaborate.

Remember Ralph Nader and the Corvair? He really tore that model up. My brother had one in the mid 1960s and
I remember riding in it with him, the shifter on the dashboard, the pancake motor with the V belt going all over the place
at right angles. It was like riding a go-cart close to the road. Funny, now people pay big bux to get that same ride....

The latest free issue of Power Electronics Technology has an article on preemptive testing to mitigate cosmic radiation effects in ICs.
Doesn't sound so far fetched now.

http://powerelectronics.com/issue_20100401/



 

I refuse to put my reliance onto any vehicle effected by Cosmic Debris 8)

Therefor the Ranger stays. :)

73

Jack.

GM is building junk and has for years now.  My mom purchased a new Cadilac SRX. Top of the line with northstar and AWD.  She loved the thing.  It went to the Caddy dealer every month like clock work to be repaired. Then the warranty ran out. Its current repair bills are over $8000.  The rear main seal leaked, The trans gaskets failed, The rear end got noisey and had to be replaced. 

The worst of it all is that one light bulb went out up front. A $6 lamp.  She could not figure out how to replace it so she took it to the dealer. They called and said the light will be $890 to replace.  Furious, I called the dealer and spoke to the manager. He said he was very sorry but it will take a technician the better part of a day to replace it. He also suggested that we replace all the lights as if another goes out, It will be the same cost.  I asked why it was so expensive, He explained the ENTIRE front of the car must be removed including the Front bumper, Grille, radiator and the fenders need to be removed also. This platform was a car that caddy turned into a Truck and as a result, They did not engineer a way to replace the bulb.

The SRX was $63,000.  She regrets it and will never buy GM again. I am going to find her a used LS430 like mine. Its one of the nicest cars ever built and its rock solid reliable.

To top all this off, The SRX is just used to go to the store and to visit my aunt who is has cancer in LA. Any car should be able to at least do that.

Clark

Hasn't been my experience, Clark.  My wife has an SRX and it's been 100% reliable.  55,000 miles - nothing broken, oil changes are $35 at the dealer.  What's not to like?  Keeps her safe in the snow on her 50 mile each way commute with the StabiliTrak, and 22 MPG for a SUV ain't too awfully bad.

You don't need to remove the whole front of the vehicle to replace the headlight or turn signal light, just the bumper cover and the fender liner.  About an hour job; they attach with snap fittings.  They were ripping her off, no reason whatsover to remove the radiator (!).  Agree that it is harder than it needs to be; they probably could have designed it such you didn't have to do that.

Face it, every manufacturer has made turds.  I have a buddy with a Nissan Marano who's sunk almost $10K in repairs in the last couple years...

Yeah. Its my moms fault. She beats the crap out of it and enters it into Rally races and desert races.  :)

There are alot of junk cars.  Ever do an oil change on Nissan Truck?  What a nightmare. 31 bolts and 2 hours, Requires special tools to get the canister apart.

C

Wow a Caddy a Nissan moms that drove...wow ..my mom came from the period of time
when women didn't drive it was expected the old man did the driving as such We, my brothers
an I did alot of hiking biking and Thumbing to get where we needed to be at times....borrowing
a ride came later,,lol

But I'm darn glad I have my Ranger today's caddys don't ride or perform any better or worst
than the rest, Humvees are canceled I guess now, imagine in 5 years the depreciation on the
last of the Lot...lol ;D

A Cage is a liability an nothen else like my old man taught me buy whatcha need not whatcha
Think you can afford, now Guitars, Tools, Bikes, things ya want wait, what the kids need come first...
I'm sorry that's the way we were raised there ain't no Cage worth putting my house up for..lol


63,000 dollars man when we bought the house it was only 53,000 sheez....that's Scary..lol

Get-R-Done  :)

73

Jack.

I know..I feel bad for her.  Now she has come down ill.  I am going to sell the SRX off. If I am lucky, I can get $14,000 for it.  She through $60,000 out the window.

C

No matter what car you buy the dealership is going to be a key determinant in how well you are treated.  My 08 Cadillac CTS has had one issue and that was from a mouse who thought the wiring was tasty and took out part of the harness controlling the high pressure fuel pump.  Even then it ran it limp mode.  I have two colleagues who were loyal Toyota owners before they moved to this area and found how important a good dealer is when dealing with factory issues.

So far the CTS has been the favorite vehicle I have owned.  It uses a direct injection 3.6 liter V6 that produces 304 horsepower running regular octane unleaded and gets a bit over 24 mpg in my mixed city/highway driving.  I bought the RWD version since I have a 4WD diesel pickup for heavy snow use but I used the CTS a couple of times in light snow events (4-6 inches) and the traction and stability control systems kept it chugging along.  On highway trips the average MPG goes over 28 and that is running above the 70 MPH speed limit.  The 6 speed auto is very smooth and the handling is a lot of fun on the mountain roads in CO and TN.

I change the oil myself since I can generally time it where my pickup, tractor, or wife's car is also due for a change and once you get dirty what is one more vehicle.   It is also a simple change with the drop in cartridge filter changed from the top and the drain plug easily accessible from below.  I don't let it go the amount the oil life monitoring system thinks it should but that is just because I am too used to the more frequent changes for non-synthetic oil.