Transformer oil with PCB present?

[W1AEX]

A friend of mine is getting a silent key's equipment ready for sale at the usual flea market gatherings this spring. In the pile of stuff, he came across a "Cantenna" type dummy load that has something other than mineral oil in it. The one quality of the oily substance in the can that stands out is that it has a very pungent "chemical" odor to it. Not knowing anything about the qualities of PCB laden transformer oil, he is wondering if that's what might be in this thing. Anyone have any thoughts? Is there a simple way to test for that? He doesn't want to unload it on someone if it's at all likely that it does contain PCB's and wants to take it to the proper place for disposal if need be. I've never used synthetic motor oil, so don't know if it has a pungent chemical odor, but is that used by hammy hambones who are too cheap to buy mineral oil?

Any insights would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Rob W1AEX

[Dave K6XYZ]

Rob.....My cantenna has the same stinking oil in it.
I got the oil from the Heathkit store when I bought the cantenna kit.
That was about 1980. I dunno if they were still selling PCB oil then or not and honestly.....I dunno if I wanna know!!
Check Google for a description of how to determine what it is.

[KE6DF]

Not knowing for sure, why not just dump it out into a jug and take it to a place that recycles old motor oil and other household toxics?

Then refill it with mineral oil and call it good.

[ka3zlr]

Good Friends with anyone owning a diesel tractor, dump it in the tank. The Additives in diesel will neutralize any Ph issues.

An up the stack it goes...better than dumping,,I wonder if the auto stores that recycle oil wud take it...that's the easiest way.

73
Jack

[N0WEK]

Not knowing for sure, why not just dump it out into a jug and take it to a place that recycles old motor oil and other household toxics?

Then refill it with mineral oil and call it good.

Best idea!

[Jim, W5JO]

Why worry?  If you have limited direct contact to the human body you have nothing to fear.  It takes more than casual exposure to PCB or almost any other chemical to cause problems.

[k4kyv]

I'm not so sure about burning it in a diesel motor.  One of the alleged reasons EPA is so paranoid about PCB is that when burnt it is said to emit dioxin, which is a known poison.  They are afraid the building might catch fire and burn the PCB.

I got rid of about 6 gallons of PCB transformer oil by passing it off as ancient brake fluid.  Brake fluid is considered a "household waste" and acceptable, but the local toxic waste dump won't take anything that is classified as an "industrial" chemical.  The pole-pig oil actually smelt a little like brake fluid, and supposedly, brake fluid contained PCB until sometime in the early 60's.

If the oil were in a transformer or capacitor, I wouldn't worry too much about it.  But every "cantenna" I ever saw would spew oil out the rim of the can at the top whenever it heated up.  I consider those things pieces of junk anyway.  I use a dummy load that is good for at least a kilowatt of modulated carrier, made from a dozen 18"-long GloBar resistors.  They cool perfectly well by convection,  with no fans or oil. Probably unobtanium to-day, they were given to me n.i.b. by an old timer before he went SK.

[ka3zlr]

Howdy,

 With so many Garage Oil Heaters out there that burn used motor oil, I delivered a bunch down through the years at work people bought, an that's another idea, dump it in one of those if ya know anybody who uses one after what I seen my brother burn in his I don't think it'd be a problem.

And The one Auto parts place here in town once told me the oil they collect 80% gets Refined into Diesel motor oil any how so one way or another it's going up somebodies stack..lol..

73
Jack

[k4kyv]

Used motor oil is normally not expected to be contaminated with PCB.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

IIRC but in order to burn PCB correctly (hot enough to destroy it chemically and not just produce dioxin byproduct) it needs to be burned super hot.  Most industrial waste is burned in concrete kilns that get extreemely hot and the exhaust is pretty much safe.  I know that this is how the folks who take some of our chemical waste does it.

I doubt a motor or oil burner would get hot enough, you would just have a toxic exhaust plume out the tail pipe or chimeny.  Not good for the neighborhood.   

[KA2QFX]

PCB: Poly chlorinated bi-phenyl has a somewhat slight pungent odor like chlorinated solvent (Carbon tetrachloride, trichloroethylene etc) with a hint of what smells like Lysol (phenols).   
PCBs are really only a health hazard if ingested. Keep it out of your body and they are no more hazardous than half the crap in your average paint can collection.

PCBs DO NOT burn well (which is why they are used in transformers) and cannot be combusted at low temperature (<1800F) by adding to deisel oil. BAD IDEA! Incomplete combustion of PCB produces PCDFs (poly chlorinated-dibenzyl-furans) which are VERY toxic and pernicious in the environment since they are lighter and more miscible than the original oil. 

Unless you want to incurr the cost of getting rid of a HazMat designated material ($$$) I'd say leave well enough alone. I have non-PCB transformer oil in mine (Post 1970) and it has a slight chemical odor also, but not quite what I'd call pungent.

A cheap and dirty (albeit somewhat dangerous) method for getting an idea of what you have would be to try and determine its boiling point in a test tube with a high temp thermometer. The boiling points of various oils should be on the internet somewhere. PCB transformers oils were all relatively the same, the major brand name being "Arochlor" (sp?).  I think it was a DuPont product.   

I guess that was little help.

Mark

[ka3zlr]

I wonder with the time involved here if Staleness isn't playing a part on that oil. I live on a Farm no close neighbors good breeze my Bro is the same way.

Might have a hard time if he tells the ones with the holding tanks what that is. Better Call first.

73
Jack.

[Opcom]

...  I use a dummy load that is good for at least a kilowatt of modulated carrier, made from a dozen 18"-long GloBar resistors.  They cool perfectly well by convection,  with no fans or oil. Probably unobtanium to-day, they were given to me n.i.b. by an old timer before he went SK.

They are $800 each, brand new today. I checked recently.

[k4kyv]

Those must be made of oxygen-free carbon.  Maybe they burn some of that wood they use to make those $250 knobs for audiophools, and use the charcoal to make the resistors. Are you sure you got the decimal place right?   

Mine are 600Ω.  Ripoff Sales of Nebraska has 680Ω ones the same physical dimensions as mine for $95 each.

Mine were new old stock, still in the original box, with a sales receipt from 1945.  I don't recall the price, but no more than a few bucks each.

[W1ATR]

How do you heat your house Rob? If by oil, is it a hydronic system (water) or an air system. If its a water system, then what kind of boiler (just the brand name and how old it is.) Newer equipment can run chamber target wall temps up around 2500-2700deg, so sending that questionable oil right into your own tank would be fine. This would only apply to a boiler. An air furnace runs a considerably lower combustion chamber temp that probably wouldn't be sufficiently high enough to properly destroy the oil without putting poison up the flue.

Forget waste oil furnaces for this because they normally use air supplied from the shops compressor to spray the waste motor oil into the chamber. This results in a significantly lower flame front temp, but because motor oil is higher in btu than regular #2, and the gallonage used is higher, waste oil furnaces work well and can achieve a clean burn. I wouldn't run it through a diesel engine either for that matter. Not hot enough unless you were gonna take it out on the highway and put it to the floorboards.     

[ka3zlr]

Get-R-Done ? where'd it end up..?

73
Jack

[W1AEX]

Thanks for the responses. I'm guessing that if it's an MFJ brand cantenna that it probably was purchased in the last 20 years, which would mean that it probably has the non-PCB transformer oil supplied by them. (Was MFJ around in the 80's?) Unless, of course, the original owner had access to some old transformer oil. If it's an older Heathkit version, then all bets are off. I bought a Heathkit cantenna back in the 70's and filled it with mineral oil, which was a little cheaper than what Heathkit was charging for their oil at the time. (I remember the pharmacist asking me if I was having a serious regularity problem when I lined up the bottles of mineral oil on the counter.)

I'll pass all this fine information on to my friend who will decide what to do with it. I suspect he will hand it off during the next hazardous waste collection at the local collection point. Personally, I wouldn't want an unknown substance sitting under the operating bench, getting hot, and venting into my operating room as I performed key-down tests with my transmitters. As was previously mentioned in the thread, whatever is inside these consumer rated dummy loads seems to find its way onto the top lid as time goes by.

Thanks again for the help!

[w1vtp]

I have a Heathkit cantenna in the catacombs -- the manual (which I have) recommends using transformer oil!!  Copyright was 1962.  So what I did when I finished building it was to steal some excellent transformer oil from a pig pole that I had (Steve WA1HID still has it in his basement).  I reached in and  used a paper cup to transfer the oil to the cantenna.  Well, fast forward to 35 years later and I'm still waiting for the bad news.

Anyway, best to get rid of the whole thing and start over with the MFJ version and use a recommended mineral oil.  It aint worth it.  That said -- if anyone needs a look at the manual I have it.

Al

[Jim, W5JO]

And should the resistor in the cantenna need replacement, MFJ sells one just like the original and considerably cheaper than any place else.

I have had one for over 30 years (Heath) and it doesn't leak or stink unless you exceed the ratings with power or time.

[WD8BIL]

If it works don't fix it.
Don't drink it and you'll be fine!

[DMOD]

I suspect it is just stale mineral oil.

Most of those original oils were white mineral oils without biocide additives to kill bugs. Over time bacteria can make it rancid and give off interesting odors.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I use pure synthetic PAO oils with high dielectric characteristics in my dummy loads.

Phil - Ac0OB

[w1vtp]

I suspect it is just stale mineral oil.

Most of those original oils were white mineral oils without biocide additives to kill bugs. Over time bacteria can make it rancid and give off interesting odors.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I use pure synthetic PAO oils with high dielectric characteristics in my dummy loads.

Phil - Ac0OB

That makes a lot of sense, now that you mention it.  I don't remember any particularly offensive odor from the pole pig when I had it.

[Opcom]

Those must be made of oxygen-free carbon.  Maybe they burn some of that wood they use to make those $250 knobs for audiophools, and use the charcoal to make the resistors. Are you sure you got the decimal place right?   

Mine are 600Ω.  Ripoff Sales of Nebraska has 680Ω ones the same physical dimensions as mine for $95 each.

Mine were new old stock, still in the original box, with a sales receipt from 1945.  I don't recall the price, but no more than a few bucks each.

I stand corrected, only $626 each for the better ones.


Hello,

I am considering using four of the 200 Ohm, 1000 Watt resistors in parallel. I'm exploring several options at the moment.
Would I buy from a distributor or directly from Kanthal Globar?
If directly, can you please let me know the costs on these items?

four of PN 892SP201J
four of PN 892SP201K
four of PN 892SP201L

eight 35269 mounting clips
eight 36200 mounting cap

====================


Hi Patrick

Below is our quotation for the resistor :

Item                       Order            Unit
No.        Description     Quantity         Price               
01        892SP201J          4              $626.15      Each
       
02        892SP201K          4              $425.65      Each

03        892SP201L          4              $316.25      Each



                                                                                 
Item                        Order           Unit
No.        Description      Quantity        Price               
01        35269             8               $29.00        Each
       
02        36200             8               $46.00        Each       

                       
       
** KANTHAL GLOBAR STANDARD PRODUCT * NO SPECIAL REQUIREMENTS * STANDARD T&C APPLY **

Shipment:  Lead time is  10 to 12  weeks ARO.
Ex Works:  Brownsville, Texas USA
Terms:  Cash in advance or credit card
Valid: 30 Days
Please contact me (Ext. 101)  if you would like to place an order.

Best regards,


Terri xxxx
Kanthal Corp, Globar
Sales
495 Commerce Drive Ste. 7
Amherst, NY 14228

Tel: +1 716 691-4010
Fax: +1 716 691-7850
Mailto:terri.xxxxg@kanthal.com