it's that damn breaker again

[N3DRB The Derb]

When I use the yeasu barefeets, no problem. When I run the amp in the tune mode , no problem. When I start loading it up in operate and swing the munky past 400 watts or so, instant shutdown of AC Power.

it's a 20 amp GFI unit Square D and it also says 10va 120vac down near where the trip indicator is. The amp, rig and tuner are all tied together
to a common copper ground plate on the desk which is connected to the ground buss with a 1" wide copper strap.

rf is tripping the thing of course, but I wonder if anyone can hip me as to the 10 va rating and what it means. It's code that any breaker out to a garage be GFI. is it possible to get one less sensitive to tripping?

I know not much about house wiring. Maybe my xmas present should be a 100 amp subpanel out to the shack.

[ke7trp]

Why are you running your station on a GFI outlet?  Its going to trip every time.   Replace the outlet with a real one. They are $5.  Or do what I did and run seperate lines in. 

C

[w4bfs]

hi Tim ... Is yer power run underground or overhead to the garage ? ... John

[WQ9E]

I had one GFI outlet in the master suite bath (about 25 feet from the station) that would trip when I ran the Desk KW on 75 meters.  In my case you could hear it buzzing along with the modulation before it would finally hit a critical level and trip; it made a pretty lousy sounding mod monitor.  In my case I put a couple of the big split ferrite cores on the feed to the outlet and that took care of my buzzing and nuisance tripping.

Does it still trip when the rig is run into a dummy load?  If so putting some additional RFI filtering on your rig and amp power cords might help and one of the ferrite chokes might be sufficient.

Rodger WQ9E

[KF1Z]

Sounds like you're on track with the christmas present...

I always use GFCI outlets, no breakers (too darn expensive).

But if the code says so... well... there you have it...

Never ran the rigs on one, but never had any of the ones in the house trip with RF.

They are outside, kitchen laundry room, and bathroom... all almost right under the Ant.

[ke7trp]

Yep.. Mine in the master bath trips.. I go to shave or clip my nose hairs and the clipper wont work.. LOL.. I have to push the Red button in.. Normaly only happens at high power AM.

C

[W7TFO]

Maybe you oughta' just rub those pesky nose hairs on the final tube under key-down and they won't be there to bother you or that breaker...

[AB3L]

It's code that any breaker out to a garage be GFI. is it possible to get one less sensitive to tripping?

Section 210.8(A)(2)
"All 15a/20a 125v receptacles installed in a garage unit must have GFCI protection".......can you run the amp on 220V?

[K1HH]

You might try a different brand of GFI. Although "general purpose" outlets in a garage must be on a GFI, I believe "dedicated appliance" outlets for a washing machine or a refrigerator are not required to be on a GFI. I use a 20 amp refrigerator circuit for my T-368 and a GFI for my receivers and DX-60, amp, and the slop bucket stuff.

Rodger
K1HH

[WA1GFZ]

Try a snap on bead at the breaker. Run the hot wire and the neutral through the bead to make it a common mode choke.

[KF1Z]

Even better....

HARDWIRE the amp to a J-box.... 

Therefore it is NOT  a receptacle.

[flintstone mop]

Forget the stupid GFI thing. They are a nuisance.
Wire your rig right to the big wires coming into the electrical panel. Don't really do it, jus keeding.
I have removed many GFI's excep the kitchen and bathrooms. The others are all gone.

Phred

[WA1GFZ]

and your insurance co will laugh at you if there is ever a problem

[N3DRB The Derb]

"All 15a/20a 125v receptacles installed in a garage unit must have GFCI protection".......can you run the amp on 220V?

nope, 120 only. It's a 20 amp circuit with #12 wire instead of #14 - I told the bossman to wire it oversized since I planned on dropping heavy mauls down way back when.  

I'll test it with the big termaline and see if it trips boiling oil in the bird. If it stays on then it's a radiation problem. I'm not going into the box, I'll have to call my homies at Todd Electric out and have them look at things. I know the main box looks like a rats nest. Really bad looking. I think my former boss cut some corners when he did the work.

worst case: I'll have them install a 100 amp sub panel just for her kiln and the transmitters. A lot of my problems have been self inflicted but this is not one of them and I'm getting fed up with JS's. 

[The Slab Bacon]

I wonder if reorienting the antenna, or changing the feedline length will reduce the coupling effect. Or like Frank (GFZ) sez snap a few beads around the leads out of the socket (or even in the cords plugging into it to break the coupling effect) Try some beads as close to the plugs as you can get, and around the #12 incoming to choke off the common mode currents.

[ke7trp]

You can stiff out the RF with a Field Stength meter.  I use this to find common modes.  Its likely you can fix the problem. I am with Fred though.. Dont run Radio gear on GFI breakers.  They should have there own deticated lines.

This thread got me thinking.. So Unplugged everything in the room and rerouted cables last night. This allowed me to distribute loads across my 4 lines.  In the process, I found the king was plugged into the same line as my RXers and computer..  The King is now on its own 30 amp 120 volt line.  RXers and other tube gear are on a 22 amp variac off a seperate 20 amp line. Computer and SS rigs are on the third line and the lights are on the last one.

What a difference.  I can key the king up full bore now and there is no voltage Drop to the other gear.  I got one more devide on the O scope on audio

C

[W1RKW]

Got GFI outlets in the shack and 1 GFI breaker in the panel. Also have GFI outlets in various places in the house.  No problems with RF in any of them.

[n2bc]

Ditto wtih RKW.  Shack and workshop fed from GFI'd branch, BC TX that was in the garage was on GFI'd branch, kitchen & baths & outside outlets all GFI.  Radios don't trip 'em....  Xmas decorations with extension cord connection under water will tho.

Get your RF out of the AC line and up to the antennas!

[WA1GFZ]

I also never tripped any of the GFI breakers in my place in QRO mode

[N4LTA]

Maybe you actually have a ground fault

GFI's have been around for quite a while and they are pretty mature technology - especially the breakers and Square D is one of the top brands. Most GFIs nuisance trips happen  because the GFI device is doing its job - detecting a ground fault.

Yea,  if you have a drop cord in the wet - it does it's job.

All the GFI does is run the black hot (or ungrounded conductor) and the white  (or grounded conductor) through a toroid and if there is any difference (A mA or so) it trips. If any current flowing out of the Black (hot) wire does not return back through the white wire - then there is current flowing to ground somewhere and the GFI trips. If you have the grounded conductor (the white wire  touching ground anywhere in the rig or amp or in the wiring - you can have a problem.

The green wire is the grounding conductor and NEVER carries current except in the case of a line to ground fault - it is sized to trip the circuit breaker quickly.

You also may have a feeder in the house that is close to 1/4 wavelength or a multiple and is acting as an antenna.

I have run QRO for years and not had problems with GFI breakers.

Pat
N4LTA

[K5UJ]

nd the white  (or grounded conductor) through a toroid and if there is any difference (A mA or so) it trips. If any current flowing out of the Black (hot) wire does not return back through the white wire - then there is current flowing to ground somewhere and the GFI trips. If you have the grounded conductor (the white wire  touching ground anywhere in the rig or amp or in the wiring - you can have a problem.

The green wire is the grounding conductor and NEVER carries current except in the case of a line to ground fault - it is sized to trip the circuit breaker quickly.

Pat,  green is ground; white is neutral return.

73

Rob

[WA1GFZ]

a thought. Any cap between the line and chassis ground will create unbalanced  currents.

[WQ9E]

a thought. Any cap between the line and chassis ground will create unbalanced  currents.

That is true but a cap sized for RF bypass shouldn't create enough current flow at 60 hz to trigger the GFI.  Of course a leaky cap certainly will but you won't need the amp keyed to cause the problem.

Some of the older military radios with hefty (and probably leaky) line filtering caused tripping problems.

One of the more interesting GFI paradoxes was at my father-in-laws house.  He was using an extension cord into a sump pump and for safety it seems a GFI is a good idea.  But in the damp location the GFI tripped resulting in water in basement.  I would definitely prefer a wet floor to electrocution but given the very small leakage it takes to trip a GFI I can see where this is a problem.

I guess we need to segment the GFI market 

We could have really sensitive GFI for those who want to minimize risk.

For those with a higher threshold of pain we have the moderately sensitive which prevents electrocution but will definitely give the victim a zap.

And for those who like Russian Roulette we have the "made in someone's back yard in China" brand which in the case of leakage may trip, do nothing, or perhaps even explode.  Some people do crave danger.

[N3DRB The Derb]

ran the amp into the DL at a KW out. No problems. RF is getting in there from the feedline.  

I had over 50 ft of excess I cut off after the ant was up. I had no problems when the crapping feedline was laying all over the wet ground in big hunks....... now that it's off the ground and cut so it fits I get grief.  

we got 20+" of snow coming so they say - and I worked my ass off to the point of pain so I could get on before xmas. I hve some snap on toroids  but Glo said she'd kick my crippled ass if she caught me in the box. 

[W2VW]

a thought. Any cap between the line and chassis ground will create unbalanced  currents.

That is true but a cap sized for RF bypass shouldn't create enough current flow at 60 hz to trigger the GFI. 

One might think that but several have been known to trip GFCIs. The R390A will pop one when bonded to "ground."