The AM Forum

When I use the yeasu barefeets, no problem. When I run the amp in the tune mode , no problem. When I start loading it up in operate and swing the munky past 400 watts or so, instant shutdown of AC Power.

it's a 20 amp GFI unit Square D and it also says 10va 120vac down near where the trip indicator is. The amp, rig and tuner are all tied together
to a common copper ground plate on the desk which is connected to the ground buss with a 1" wide copper strap.

rf is tripping the thing of course, but I wonder if anyone can hip me as to the 10 va rating and what it means. It's code that any breaker out to a garage be GFI. is it possible to get one less sensitive to tripping?

I know not much about house wiring. Maybe my xmas present should be a 100 amp subpanel out to the shack.

Why are you running your station on a GFI outlet?  Its going to trip every time.   Replace the outlet with a real one. They are $5.  Or do what I did and run seperate lines in. 

C

hi Tim ... Is yer power run underground or overhead to the garage ? ... John

I had one GFI outlet in the master suite bath (about 25 feet from the station) that would trip when I ran the Desk KW on 75 meters.  In my case you could hear it buzzing along with the modulation before it would finally hit a critical level and trip; it made a pretty lousy sounding mod monitor.  In my case I put a couple of the big split ferrite cores on the feed to the outlet and that took care of my buzzing and nuisance tripping.

Does it still trip when the rig is run into a dummy load?  If so putting some additional RFI filtering on your rig and amp power cords might help and one of the ferrite chokes might be sufficient.

Rodger WQ9E

Sounds like you're on track with the christmas present...

I always use GFCI outlets, no breakers (too darn expensive).

But if the code says so... well... there you have it...

Never ran the rigs on one, but never had any of the ones in the house trip with RF.

They are outside, kitchen laundry room, and bathroom... all almost right under the Ant.

Yep.. Mine in the master bath trips.. I go to shave or clip my nose hairs and the clipper wont work.. LOL.. I have to push the Red button in.. Normaly only happens at high power AM.

C

Maybe you oughta' just rub those pesky nose hairs on the final tube under key-down and they won't be there to bother you or that breaker... ;D

Section 210.8(A)(2)
"All 15a/20a 125v receptacles installed in a garage unit must have GFCI protection".......can you run the amp on 220V?

You might try a different brand of GFI. Although "general purpose" outlets in a garage must be on a GFI, I believe "dedicated appliance" outlets for a washing machine or a refrigerator are not required to be on a GFI. I use a 20 amp refrigerator circuit for my T-368 and a GFI for my receivers and DX-60, amp, and the slop bucket stuff.

Rodger
K1HH

Try a snap on bead at the breaker. Run the hot wire and the neutral through the bead to make it a common mode choke.

Even better....

HARDWIRE the amp to a J-box.... 

Therefore it is NOT  a receptacle.

Forget the stupid GFI thing. They are a nuisance.
Wire your rig right to the big wires coming into the electrical panel. Don't really do it, jus keeding.
I have removed many GFI's excep the kitchen and bathrooms. The others are all gone.

Phred

and your insurance co will laugh at you if there is ever a problem

nope, 120 only. It's a 20 amp circuit with #12 wire instead of #14 - I told the bossman to wire it oversized since I planned on dropping heavy mauls down way back when.  8)

I'll test it with the big termaline and see if it trips boiling oil in the bird. If it stays on then it's a radiation problem. I'm not going into the box, I'll have to call my homies at Todd Electric out and have them look at things. I know the main box looks like a rats nest. Really bad looking. I think my former boss cut some corners when he did the work.

worst case: I'll have them install a 100 amp sub panel just for her kiln and the transmitters. A lot of my problems have been self inflicted but this is not one of them and I'm getting fed up with JS's.  >:(

I wonder if reorienting the antenna, or changing the feedline length will reduce the coupling effect. Or like Frank (GFZ) sez snap a few beads around the leads out of the socket (or even in the cords plugging into it to break the coupling effect) Try some beads as close to the plugs as you can get, and around the #12 incoming to choke off the common mode currents.

You can stiff out the RF with a Field Stength meter.  I use this to find common modes.  Its likely you can fix the problem. I am with Fred though.. Dont run Radio gear on GFI breakers.  They should have there own deticated lines.

This thread got me thinking.. So Unplugged everything in the room and rerouted cables last night. This allowed me to distribute loads across my 4 lines.  In the process, I found the king was plugged into the same line as my RXers and computer..  The King is now on its own 30 amp 120 volt line.  RXers and other tube gear are on a 22 amp variac off a seperate 20 amp line. Computer and SS rigs are on the third line and the lights are on the last one.

What a difference.  I can key the king up full bore now and there is no voltage Drop to the other gear.  I got one more devide on the O scope on audio :)

C

Got GFI outlets in the shack and 1 GFI breaker in the panel. Also have GFI outlets in various places in the house.  No problems with RF in any of them.

Ditto wtih RKW.  Shack and workshop fed from GFI'd branch, BC TX that was in the garage was on GFI'd branch, kitchen & baths & outside outlets all GFI.  Radios don't trip 'em....  Xmas decorations with extension cord connection under water will tho.

Get your RF out of the AC line and up to the antennas!

I also never tripped any of the GFI breakers in my place in QRO mode

Maybe you actually have a ground fault

GFI's have been around for quite a while and they are pretty mature technology - especially the breakers and Square D is one of the top brands. Most GFIs nuisance trips happen  because the GFI device is doing its job - detecting a ground fault.

Yea,  if you have a drop cord in the wet - it does it's job.

All the GFI does is run the black hot (or ungrounded conductor) and the white  (or grounded conductor) through a toroid and if there is any difference (A mA or so) it trips. If any current flowing out of the Black (hot) wire does not return back through the white wire - then there is current flowing to ground somewhere and the GFI trips. If you have the grounded conductor (the white wire  touching ground anywhere in the rig or amp or in the wiring - you can have a problem.

The green wire is the grounding conductor and NEVER carries current except in the case of a line to ground fault - it is sized to trip the circuit breaker quickly.

You also may have a feeder in the house that is close to 1/4 wavelength or a multiple and is acting as an antenna.

I have run QRO for years and not had problems with GFI breakers.

Pat
N4LTA

Pat,  green is ground; white is neutral return.

73

Rob

a thought. Any cap between the line and chassis ground will create unbalanced  currents.

That is true but a cap sized for RF bypass shouldn't create enough current flow at 60 hz to trigger the GFI.  Of course a leaky cap certainly will but you won't need the amp keyed to cause the problem.

Some of the older military radios with hefty (and probably leaky) line filtering caused tripping problems.

One of the more interesting GFI paradoxes was at my father-in-laws house.  He was using an extension cord into a sump pump and for safety it seems a GFI is a good idea.  But in the damp location the GFI tripped resulting in water in basement.  I would definitely prefer a wet floor to electrocution but given the very small leakage it takes to trip a GFI I can see where this is a problem.

I guess we need to segment the GFI market  ;)

We could have really sensitive GFI for those who want to minimize risk.

For those with a higher threshold of pain we have the moderately sensitive which prevents electrocution but will definitely give the victim a zap.

And for those who like Russian Roulette we have the "made in someone's back yard in China" brand which in the case of leakage may trip, do nothing, or perhaps even explode.  Some people do crave danger.

ran the amp into the DL at a KW out. No problems. RF is getting in there from the feedline.  >:(

I had over 50 ft of excess I cut off after the ant was up. I had no problems when the crapping feedline was laying all over the wet ground in big hunks....... now that it's off the ground and cut so it fits I get grief.  >:( >:( >:( >:(

we got 20+" of snow coming so they say - and I worked my ass off to the point of pain so I could get on before xmas. I hve some snap on toroids  but Glo said she'd kick my crippled ass if she caught me in the box.  ;D

One might think that but several have been known to trip GFCIs. The R390A will pop one when bonded to "ground."

I thought that there were times tatthe neutral was grounded in a piece of electronic equipment.
Shelby KB3OUK

Rob,

The NEC (National Electric Code) defines the following conductors and color codes in a grounded single phase power system

Black is the ungrounded conductor
White or natural gray is the grounded conductor
Green is the grounding conductor

Note grounded conductor and grounding conductor

The white - sometimes miscalled the neutral conductor is grounded at the service entrance  at a single point - AND NO WHERE ELSE.

This point is called the bonding point and the green grounding condutor originates at this point. At no other point in the system do the white grounded conductor and the green grounding conductor tie together - hence the system has a single point ground. The bonding point is grounded to the utility ground, the cold water pipe and any of several code defined grounding electrodes.

The black and white conductor are current carrying conductors - the green is not except in fault conditions.

The white or grounded conductor is always at bonded to ground - but at only one place - the bonding point - since it carries current - it is at ground potential only at the bond point and the farther down stream - the more potential difference you get from the white to the green wires. The green wire is always at ground potential because no current flows through it.

In a three phase grounded system - the phase wires are color coded depending on voltage and the grounded conductor is white or natural gray (always)

The above is pretty simple and is very much misunderstood - a grounding conductor is NEVER allowed to carry current.  I have witnessed many cases where the green wire was bonded in multiple points causing a multitude of problem from people thinking that the more "grounds" the better. In one case we measured over 20 MA of AC current flowing in the shield of a CCTV coax because multiple panels had bonding jumpers installed. That made the ground at the different coax connections at different voltage potentials. The result was that the video was almost totally blanked.

The IT folks are the very worst for misunderstanding ground systems and how they react to their computer systems.

BTW - A cap from "AC hot " to ground in a three wire cord might very well trip the GFI if it is large enough.  It only take a very small leakage current.

I have had it leak through me several times and trip the breaker with only a mild shock.

Pat
N4LTA

That's why the neutral on the pole usually has a ground wire hooked to it.

True for lightning protection. The NEC wants any offset current to flow between the pole ground and the house single point ground so it doesn't distribute all over the building. It is OK to have multiple grounds as long as it only connects to the service ground at the single point ground. The single point ground is the safety ground in the breaker panel. My building inspector thought it would be a good idea to run an additional ground over to the water service and attach to both sides of the meter. Then I fessed up and told him I was a ham and showed him the #8 solid leads coming in with the 3/4 inch copper water that would become the shack ground. He thought it would be good to  tie them into the service ground lead.
I was surprised that he didn't want me to run a ground in from the meter when I asked about it.

Rob, while you are correct in stating green is ground, and white is neutral return, Pat is also correct and accurate in the use of the terms "grounded" and "grounding".  These words are used extensively in the NEC manual.  

The neutral is bonded to the ground only at the service entrance.  Hence neutral is often referred to as the "grounded" conductor.   White, neutral, and grounded all refer to the same wire.

The green is used to bond the appliance to the ground, such that the appliance remains at ground potential if there is a short in the appliance, thus tripping the breaker instead of placing the appliance at a dangerous voltage with respect to ground.  Hence, it is commonly referred to as the "grounding" wire.  Green, ground, and grounding all refer to the same conductor.  I hope this helps to clarify the terminology.

EDIT:  My apologies, Pat.  I did not see your post on "page 2" clarifying the issue, thus my post is redundant!

I agree with your statement about IT folks not understanding power and grounding issues.  In my years with Hewlett Packard, I was certified to inspect and recommend updates to customer power to resolve issues with the larger computer systems, preferably prior to the installation.  Ground loops and noisy grounds were common causes of intermittent failures.  One of the things that alleviated many of these problems was the move to connecting peripherals with fibre optics rather than copper cables.  

got on last night - breaker tripping - I removed all grounds from the gear and no more breaker tripping,
but got a instant case of RF in the audio upon transmit.  :(

gonna try moving the matchbox so the feedline goes straight out of the wall. Right now it's got a 8ft run before it hits the outside.

Not to try to start a P match but this is a quote from Mike Holt's book on the NEC. Mike is THE authority on the NEC. I am a bit picky and I really don't have a problem using the term neutral as it is a very common practice and I probably use it myself but ...

"Author’s Comment: The electrical trade industry typically uses the term “neutral,” when referring to the white/gray wire. However, the proper
term for this conductor is “grounded conductor.”
Technically, it’s improper to call a “grounded conductor” a “neutral conductor” or “neutral wire” when it’s not truly a neutral conductor,
but this is a long-standing industry practice. For the purpose of this workbook this conductor will be called a grounded neutral conductor.
That should keep most people happy."

As I said Neutral is a common term and is often misused. The term neutral is defined by the IEEE as having equal potential to all other current carrying conductors. This is only the case in an exactly balanced three phase system with no harmonic loads.

I constantly have to deal with electrical contractors that don't know the difference between a neutral, a grounded conductor or a ground conductor and haven't a clue about neutral bonding - so I am a bit picky. In most states - there only has to be one licensed contractor for an electrical contractor business - even if it has 1000 employees. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The examination procedure is getting to be like the Ham exams - you can memorize the test and never understand the theory.

I am am EE with about 35 years experience and took the Masters exam several years ago. I studied for a couple of weeks working out problems and design practice.

When I took the test - I worked one simple design problem - the rest was nothing more than using the code book to find answers to questions like " how far can a telephone drop be located from a telephone service drop"?

Pat
N4LTA

No contest here, Pat.  I could not have said it better than you did, and if I realized you already posted, I would not have added my comments.  We are fortunate to have posts from knowledgable authorities like yourself from which to learn! 
Your comments about the misuse of the term "neutral" bring "flashbacks" to my memory years back when many inspectors did not understand the theory or the code.  Thank you for your clarifications!

W8KHK

Your not far away. I am just up the road. I know exactly what you mean. Sounds like you may be in the electrical business too?

Pat
N4LTA

Derb,
Would it be possible to run a ground back to the panel and tie it into the station grounds? You may be setting up a loop causing the offset. Check to make sure no neutrals are tied to chassis ground.

I looked up your call this morning.  Yes, you are almost a neighbor.  I am in Marietta, northwest of Atlanta.  I often travel up to Virginia to visit with friends.  Maybe next trip I can stop in for an eyeball QSO. 

I worked for Hewlett Packard from 1977, then Agilent Technologies (when they split off) from 1999 until retirement in 2006.  Initially I performed on-site service for the HP-3000 systems, and then specialized in site preparation in conjunction with sales and upgrades.  It was not always easy to convince customers to do the power and HVAC properly the first time, but those that did it right up-front were much happier with the overall reliability for years to come.  The most challenging were the remotes in the Bahamas and San Juan.  My work in Agilent was more a software engineering role, developing tools and processes to deploy and manage servers remotely on a world-wide scale.

Frank,

I'm going to call the homies at the electric place. I strongly suspect that I've got problems related to the wiring my former boss did when he finished the garage out. Think it's time to call in the pros and get it inspected and fixed.

I really dont need anymore grief, at least not any that I havent put upon myself.  ;D