Made in USA

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

I don't recall Hillary commenting on the subject. He was an awesome mountain climber though.

I don't care about the consensus. It's a global economy. If everyone only bought stuff made in their own country, lots of US companies would be out of business, or employ far less Americans. We must move beyond the xenophobia and 1950's thinking.

The point is that it doesn't matter that much where a big, global company is located. Their profits benefit people around the world.

That's nice but sounds like something Hillary would say.

Check the subject line and the comments that followed.  I believe that the consensus is that buying American is good for American. 

When jobs go off shore Americans lose.  Cash for Klunkers would be better for Americans if it were limited to American cars.

............

>In an accounting sense, you are correct. But if the company isn't making a profit, there are no workers or pay.

 Surely you jest?  Remember "too big to fail"?  I can think of quite a few bankrupt companies that are still doing business as usual thanks to us taxpayers.

js

[Bill, KD0HG]

Ford's corporate sales manager said in an August 2 interview that all of their 4-banger (fuel efficient) vehicles have been flying out the door.

"..You are going to see large gains in almost every Ford product that is powered by a four-cylinder engine -- the Focus, the Fusion, Fusion Hybrid, the Escape small utility and its hybrid version, the companion Mercury products -- that is where the demand was, particularly this past week," Pipas said."

People *are* trading in for high MPG vehicles.

Here's the CNN top-10 sales list from yesterday:

#1: Ford Focus. Made in USA. Near 30 MPG.
#2: Toyota Corolla. Made in USA, Canada, Japan. Near 30 MPG.
#3: Honda Civic. Made in USA. Near 40 MPG.
#4 Toyota Prius. Made in Japan. Around 45 MPG.
#5: Toyota Camry. Made in USA. Around 35 MPG.
#6: Ford Escape SUV. Made in USA. Up to 32 MPG (hybrid).
#7: Hyundai Elantra. Made in Korea. Near 30 MPG.
#8: Dodge Caliber/Jeep Compass. Made in USA. Mid-20s MPG.
#9; Honda Fit. Made in Japan. Around 30 MPG.
#10: Chevy Cobalt. Made in USA. Near 30 MPG.

Note that there isn't a single large SUV or pickup truck on the list, *every* top-selling vehicle in the clunker program is fuel efficient.  Every one.

Seven of the top-10 best sellers are made in the USA. Is that so bad?

The top trade in for the above vehicles? The Ford Explorer.

.

[W1VD]

People *are* trading in for high MPG vehicles.

People *must* trade for a higher MPG vehicle to take advantage of the offer.

Online site that lets one input their 'clunker' and new car choice to see if the plan works for them.   

http://www.cars.gov/

Click 'MPG Ratings' tab, then 'I'm ready to begin'.

Ran through it myself using a 1993 17 MPG car I'd like to get rid of. Couldn't make it work for any vehicle I'd consider putting my family in 

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Yes, it is bad. They are using my money to do it and I don't get a car.

Dodge Caliber/Jeep Compass. Made in USA. Mid-20s MPG.

WTF? My 16 year old clunker gets better gas mileage than this. In fact, the MPG is high enough that it does not qualify for this bogus program. Once again, the American public gets ripped off and the special interests rake in the dough.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Yes, it is bad. They are using my money to do it and I don't get a car.

Dodge Caliber/Jeep Compass. Made in USA. Mid-20s MPG.

WTF? My 16 year old clunker gets better gas mileage than this. In fact, the MPG is high enough that it does not qualify for this bogus program. Once again, the American public gets ripped off and the special interests rake in the dough.

Yeah, well, it *is* a Dodge, after all.   

I look at it this way: Getting all those beaters off the road is prolly going to save the USA some gasoline consumption. That way, I can afford to keep driving our F-250, Grand Cherokee or Crown Vic when the next fuel crunch hits.

Anyway, divided among us Americans, the $3 bil cost of the program is costing us $10 each. Not to lose sleep over it. You ain't buying a new car for $10 bucks, dude.

Your mileage and opinion may vary...

[ka3zlr]

Yea,..But it sure would'a been Nice If we the free were Asked first.

73
Jack.

 

[Ed KB1HVS]

"Cash for klunkers" has turned out to be a program to get all those nice big American made cars off the road and replace them with overwhelmingly foreign imports.

One might think this is an unintended consequence of shortsightedness but I am too cynical about government to think anything not in the best interests of Americans is unintended.

js

 Thank the politicians from the states that have Toyota Kia Honda etc, factory's in them for that one. for that one.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Bear in mind that no one is forcing anybody to buy a new car or participate in the program, and no one is specifying a particular brand to buy.

From today's WSJ:

DETROIT -- Ford Motor Co. confirmed Wednesday it boosted output of its Focus car in response to declining product availability on dealer lots.

"We are taking appropriate actions," Ford spokeswoman Angie Kozleski said. She declined to provide further details.

However, two people in the United Auto Workers union said the plant, in Wayne, Mich., began working 10-hour weekday shifts Monday and will also work a series of Saturdays starting this week.

Ford is the second of the Detroit auto makers to increase output after the highly successful "cash for clunkers" program caused many dealers to run low on products.

Meanwhile, Chrysler Group LLC and General Motors Co. have been more aggressive. Chrysler returned its minivan plant to three shifts Monday and will begin running Saturday shifts at its Warren, Mich., pickup-truck assembly plant. GM CEO Fritz Henderson said Tuesday he will increase output, but he declined to provide a timetable.

Like I said before, forget about the foreign manufacturers, this is good. A rising tide lifts all boats.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Anyway, divided among us Americans, the $3 bil cost of the program is costing us $10 each. Not to lose sleep over it. You ain't buying a new car for $10 bucks, dude.

Your mileage and opinion may vary...

Actually it's more like $22 and it will likely grow as they continue to dump money into it. But that's not really the point. Multiply that by the hundreds or thousands of similarly useless and misguided programs and we're talking serious money. You are missing the forest for the trees.

Or look at it another way, if I walked up to you, grabbed your wallet and took $20 out, how cool would you be with that. Maybe I'd come back tomorrow and take $20 more.......

[ka3zlr]

It's just a Band Aid for Detroit is all it is ...But ..After.. the gold rush is over Then what...we'll have a good Fall on the market...then Bang another Drop...at the end of the period Darn it...

73
Jack.

[WA1GFZ]

Just bought my daughter a new Pontiac G5
So XYL can have her 1996 Pontiac GP back which runs great
So I can have my 2001 Silverado back which also runs great
Each have over 100k on them.
Tell me how much you love your BMW when the battery goes.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Anyway, divided among us Americans, the $3 bil cost of the program is costing us $10 each. Not to lose sleep over it. You ain't buying a new car for $10 bucks, dude.

Your mileage and opinion may vary...

Actually it's more like $22 and it will likely grow as they continue to dump money into it. But that's not really the point. Multiply that by the hundreds or thousands of similarly useless and misguided programs and we're talking serious money. You are missing the forest for the trees.

Or look at it another way, if I walked up to you, grabbed your wallet and took $20 out, how cool would you be with that. Maybe I'd come back tomorrow and take $20 more.......

Well, Steve, there's plenty of government programs that are grabbing $$ out of my wallet. Some that I disagree with.. Some that have been foisted on us years ago.

But in this case, my opinion is that the Cash for Clunkers program is a decent, if not perfect program, it's helped folks keep their jobs, it has helped incrementally reducing our energy use, it has helped a lot of our fellow Americans replace the polluting, gas-guzzling P.O.S. they were driving with something more efficient, and I don't mind paying for my share of it. The plusses outweigh the negatives, IMO.

No one is forcing anyone to buy a vehicle. Everyone is still entitled to buy whatever vehicle they want and can afford, inside or outside of the program.

Sometimes...You have to spray a little starting fluid into the carb to get it started up again. Or use the jumper cables.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then. Don't forget that.

You are free to object to a $22 tax, I don't mind it myself in this case.. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree. I feel that it's money well spent.

When this program is done, it's done. It's not going to go on forever, like so many other government programs.

[WA1GFZ]

I didn't go clunker. My POS 96 GP gets about 26 on the open road and my HOS truck kisses 20 on a trip with a 5.3 V8.
My plan was to buy a leftover this year anyway. I was palnning a Malibu but a bit more car than my Daughter needed so looked at Cobalt. Then found G5 same chassis but more options and cheaper price. Almost went Ford but local dealer a crook.

[Ed KB1HVS]

How long has the govt. been subsidizing farms?

[Opcom]

yes cash for clunkers should have been limited to buying "American" cars to keep the most money here.
I believe that would be Ford, GM, and Chrysler. Maybe some other? Americans will have to pay for the program. Therefore those who do not buy American do not deserve to be in on it. My tax money already goes to pay for a host of unspeakable abominations as it is.

[K9ACT]

I don't recall Hillary commenting on the subject. He was an awesome mountain climber though.

I suspect that you know I was referring to the lady we all know and love who claimed to be named after him even though she was born (and presumably named) before he did anything worth noting.

>I don't care about the consensus. It's a global economy. If everyone only bought stuff made in their own country, lots of US companies would be out of business, or employ far less Americans.

You speak in absolutes.  How about if we just spent half the energy our competitors spend on promoting buying home made?  Or even suggest that it's a good idea instead of jamming globalism down our throats?

If lots of people bought lots of stuff made at home we would employ far more Americans and we would be making useful things instead of being the junk music and porn king of the world.

Unfortunately, "global economy" is just a piece of evil propaganda used by the globalists to anesthetize us so we just take it in stride. I don't think you will find the Japanese or Chinese media stuffing that sort of rubbish into the brains of the locals.

Sorry old boy but nationalism is good, globalism is bad.

> We must move beyond the xenophobia and 1950's thinking.

The 50's were the good old days.  I am glad I was around to remember them.

js

[K6JEK]

...

The 50's were the good old days.  I am glad I was around to remember them.

Yes they were, for me anyway.  But I've come to think they were an anomaly, other economies shut down etc.  There is a terrific compare contrast between the Almost Golden Years  (I think that's what he calls them) and the current times in Robert Reich's book Supercapitalism. I may dig it out to remind myself of just how very different those times were.

Of course, it wasn't a great time if you were black or really anything but white in the USA. 

[The Slab Bacon]

You know back in the 1990's I started getting really into the “BUY ONLY U.S. MADE CARS” routine and I purchased a Ford Ranger XLT. Before that I had a couple of Pontiacs that gave me nothing but trouble the whole time I owned them. The master cylinder for the brakes went out in the Ranger within the first year I owned it. I loaded up that Ranger in 2000 and moved to California. I sold the Ranger and bought a 2001 gold Honda Civic. I drove that Civic until just last year for over 150,000 miles and I only had to replace the battery and brakes pads once and the tires twice. Both my wife and I now drive BMW’s.
And.., you know what?
I will never buy another American made piece of crap automobile ever again.
That may sound really harsh, but there is a reason why the U.S. auto industry is falling apart. Too much stupidity over the years in not adapting to the changing times when it was necessary. It’s their own darn fault.

Just FWIW I have had 2 Rangers, both are / were pinto powered. the first one was an 88, I SOLD it with in excess of 245,000 miles on it!! 1 set of tires, 1 battery, 1 muffler and tailpipe and 2 sets of brakes all the way around. I changed the timing belt twice for good luck but intentionally left the original serpentine belt on it just to see. This one got 26-28mpg (2.0 engine w/5speed)

The second one is a fully loaded 99 (2.5 EFI w/5speed) THIS ONE EASILY GETS IN EXCESS OF 30MPG! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! 129,000 miles now on it. It still runs brand new, I have put 1 set of tires, a battery (just for luck) and an alternator on it. This vehicle has been virtually repair free for the first 125,000 miles other than routine maintenance!

Why drive a pregnant roller skate if you dont have to!!

                                                          the Slab Bacon

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Sorry old boy but nationalism is good, globalism is bad.

And I speak in absolutes? LOL. Thanks for proving my point.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

And sometimes you must pay off the special interests that helped you get elected. That all this is and nothing more. The difference in fuel comsumption cannot be measured. Its impact on the economy cannot be measured. When it will end? No one knows. But, hey it's politics as usual. I guess I shouldn't expect anything less, despite all the propaganda.

Anyway, divided among us Americans, the $3 bil cost of the program is costing us $10 each. Not to lose sleep over it. You ain't buying a new car for $10 bucks, dude.

Your mileage and opinion may vary...

Actually it's more like $22 and it will likely grow as they continue to dump money into it. But that's not really the point. Multiply that by the hundreds or thousands of similarly useless and misguided programs and we're talking serious money. You are missing the forest for the trees.

Or look at it another way, if I walked up to you, grabbed your wallet and took $20 out, how cool would you be with that. Maybe I'd come back tomorrow and take $20 more.......

Well, Steve, there's plenty of government programs that are grabbing $$ out of my wallet. Some that I disagree with.. Some that have been foisted on us years ago.

But in this case, my opinion is that the Cash for Clunkers program is a decent, if not perfect program, it's helped folks keep their jobs, it has helped incrementally reducing our energy use, it has helped a lot of our fellow Americans replace the polluting, gas-guzzling P.O.S. they were driving with something more efficient, and I don't mind paying for my share of it. The plusses outweigh the negatives, IMO.

No one is forcing anyone to buy a vehicle. Everyone is still entitled to buy whatever vehicle they want and can afford, inside or outside of the program.

Sometimes...You have to spray a little starting fluid into the carb to get it started up again. Or use the jumper cables.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then. Don't forget that.

You are free to object to a $22 tax, I don't mind it myself in this case.. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree. I feel that it's money well spent.

When this program is done, it's done. It's not going to go on forever, like so many other government programs.

[K9ACT]

Sorry old boy but nationalism is good, globalism is bad.

And I speak in absolutes? LOL. Thanks for proving my point.

The only point proven is that we all speak in absolutes (exaggerate) when defending our own ideas.

So far in this discussion, there isn't much we disagree on other than nationalism vs globalism and I suspect we would agree on a compromise there too if it were not for the grandstanding.

When will it all end?

When politicians have the brains and integrity to recognize and do something about rampant population growth.

What is the point in reducing carbon foot print 10% when in a few years the number of feet on the ground will have increased more than that?

Making a big deal out of marginal fuel consumption changes is laughable with a population growing exponentially.

Lots of people use that term but most of them have no clue what it means.

In the words of the Schmidling Productions documentary "The Rotten World of Fungus"...

"Nowhere in the natural scheme of things has man ever made a positive contribution........

"Exponential population growth means that given enough time, the human race will be expanding into outer space at the speed of light."

No matter how many gas guzzlers we got off the road.

Check it out at your local library for the rest of the immortal words of yours truly.

js

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

I agree, except that I never made any statement in favor of absolute globalism. I said it's a global economy. That is a fact, not my opinion. I buy American when I can and when it makes economic sense (best price, best quality, best value, etc). But I also believe in competition. So, I will not just blindly buy American when some other country is making something better. That's it, that's all. Please don't read any more into it.

Sorry old boy but nationalism is good, globalism is bad.

And I speak in absolutes? LOL. Thanks for proving my point.

The only point proven is that we all speak in absolutes (exaggerate) when defending our own ideas.

So far in this discussion, there isn't much we disagree on other than nationalism vs globalism and I suspect we would agree on a compromise there too if it were not for the grandstanding.

When will it all end?

When politicians have the brains and integrity to recognize and do something about rampant population growth.

What is the point in reducing carbon foot print 10% when in a few years the number of feet on the ground will have increased more than that?

Making a big deal out of marginal fuel consumption changes is laughable with a population growing exponentially.

Lots of people use that term but most of them have no clue what it means.

In the words of the Schmidling Productions documentary "The Rotten World of Fungus"...

"Nowhere in the natural scheme of things has man ever made a positive contribution........

"Exponential population growth means that given enough time, the human race will be expanding into outer space at the speed of light."

No matter how many gas guzzlers we got off the road.

Check it out at your local library for the rest of the immortal words of yours truly.

js

[WA1GFZ]

I guess Frank doesn't drive to impress 

[N3DRB The Derb]

we just got the 2004 dodge ram 1500 inspected. The original brakes r still on with 115K miles. no problems. 3.7 v6,  5 spd OD stick, gets actual 22 mpg on highway. is not clunker, does not qualify. 

havent driven it since march 2006. Sux. 

Built by UAW in St. Louis, MO. engine in detroit, tranny in michigan at New Venture Gear.

[Bill, KD0HG]

And sometimes you must pay off the special interests that helped you get elected. That all this is and nothing more. The difference in fuel consumption cannot be measured. Its impact on the economy cannot be measured. When it will end? No one knows. But, hey it's politics as usual. I guess I shouldn't expect anything less, despite all the propaganda.

Steve, politics has always been about greasing the wheels. It's been that way in the good old USA since day 1; even Honest Abe made policy to pacify supporters and contributors. Early American history shows us that presidents have always given jobs and business to supporters. Even more blatantly than the corrupt Chicago and New Jersey politics that are cited today. I'm not personally so much of an idealist that it bothers me much any more. But if the laws get broken, that's another story.

In any case, yes, the results of the program *can* be measured. Here's from today's Bloomberg news, and the source isn't government propaganda.

" Aug. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Ford Motor Co., benefiting from the Obama administration’s “cash-for-clunkers” program, said it’s boosting factory output by 26 percent in the second half to meet the increased demand.

Ford, the only major U.S. automaker to avoid bankruptcy, is increasing production by 18 percent in the third quarter to 495,000 cars and trucks. The Dearborn, Michigan-based automaker plans to raise plant output by 33 percent in the fourth quarter. " (Example- Doesn't that mean Ford will be paying out ~ 33% more wages later this year? That's a LOT of money)

"To increase Escape production, Ford said it is bringing workers back from scheduled shutdown at its Kansas City, Missouri, factory to work beginning Aug. 21-22."

Steve, Ford can quantify what the clunker program has done for its American workers in terms of employment and wages paid, and at some point, so can the other auto manufacturers. I'd rather my one-time $22 tax for the program went to supporting gainful employment rather than paying a perpetual tax for the welfare line.

Once the exact records are compiled at the end of the program, it *will* be possible to quantify roughly how much (if any) fuel savings the program generated instead of speculating one way or the other.

On edit: Among the beneficiaries of the clunker program are the stockholders of Ford Motor Company, most of whom are Americans or American investment companies.