Made in USA

[K9ACT]

I agree, except that I never made any statement in favor of absolute globalism. I said it's a global economy. That is a fact, not my opinion. I buy American when I can and when it makes economic sense (best price, best quality, best value, etc). But I also believe in competition. So, I will not just blindly buy American when some other country is making something better. That's it, that's all. Please don't read any more into it.

We are getting dangerously close to agreement.

We could argue if better also means cheaper. But I would be putting words into your mouth.

There was a time when I would pay more for equivalent if  made in USA but at this time in my life (70) and now recognizing that our government is bent on self-destruction, I just don't give rip beyond talking about problems.

The root of all evil is population growth.  That is a fact not not an opinion.

js

[The Slab Bacon]

I guess Frank doesn't drive to impress 

Nah  that's what I have a motorcycle and my dynamic personality for     

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

The data shown is too short term (or just not enough of it) to draw any conclusions. Of course Ford is going to put a good spin in it. They are getting paid off by the government. So, yes, it is government propaganda. And I don't buy it.

Further, there is no analysis showing what could have been done with the billions that would have had a postivie long term effect. Creating a false economy to bring workers back for some short period of time, without addressing any of the root and long term problems is laughable.

Finally, using the two wrongs make a right argument to justify this program illustrates how indefensible it really is.

And sometimes you must pay off the special interests that helped you get elected. That all this is and nothing more. The difference in fuel consumption cannot be measured. Its impact on the economy cannot be measured. When it will end? No one knows. But, hey it's politics as usual. I guess I shouldn't expect anything less, despite all the propaganda.

Steve, politics has always been about greasing the wheels. It's been that way in the good old USA since day 1; even Honest Abe made policy to pacify supporters and contributors. Early American history shows us that presidents have always given jobs and business to supporters. Even more blatantly than the corrupt Chicago and New Jersey politics that are cited today. I'm not personally so much of an idealist that it bothers me much any more. But if the laws get broken, that's another story.

In any case, yes, the results of the program *can* be measured. Here's from today's Bloomberg news, and the source isn't government propaganda.

" Aug. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Ford Motor Co., benefiting from the Obama administration’s “cash-for-clunkers” program, said it’s boosting factory output by 26 percent in the second half to meet the increased demand.

Ford, the only major U.S. automaker to avoid bankruptcy, is increasing production by 18 percent in the third quarter to 495,000 cars and trucks. The Dearborn, Michigan-based automaker plans to raise plant output by 33 percent in the fourth quarter. " (Example- Doesn't that mean Ford will be paying out ~ 33% more wages later this year? That's a LOT of money)

"To increase Escape production, Ford said it is bringing workers back from scheduled shutdown at its Kansas City, Missouri, factory to work beginning Aug. 21-22."

Steve, Ford can quantify what the clunker program has done for its American workers in terms of employment and wages paid, and at some point, so can the other auto manufacturers. I'd rather my one-time $22 tax for the program went to supporting gainful employment rather than paying a perpetual tax for the welfare line.

Once the exact records are compiled at the end of the program, it *will* be possible to quantify roughly how much (if any) fuel savings the program generated instead of speculating one way or the other.

On edit: Among the beneficiaries of the clunker program are the stockholders of Ford Motor Company, most of whom are Americans or American investment companies.

[K3ZS]

My gripe about some government incentive programs is that they reward stupidity.  Those with the foresight to buy fuel efficient cars in the past can't benefit from the clunkers program.    Those of us who built well insulated homes with efficient heat and cooling sources can not now benefit from the government rebate programs.    When these programs come into being there ought to be a tax credit for those of us who already have done what the programs are trying to accomplish.

[ka3zlr]

Naa I wouldn't even mention Stupidity on this subject matter, Rather Rifleling, the way the money is being fired off, there are very well paid analyst's that do nothing but plan, average and proof ideals like these before they're put into action, they already know what the Public will do.  Nothing.

So we save a coupla shifts for ford or chevy on the line big deal...Long Term man...this does what for that..?


73
Jack.





 

[WA1GFZ]

Hey we can't give it all to Haliburton.

[Art]

You imply Halliburton provided nothing ("give") for the $1.5T allocated to them for the various services they provided over the course of 5 years. (This $ per the DNC so it must be true.) And that the bailouts are an insignificant number compared to current outlays.
Money wasted is support for failed businesses who supply nothing but debt for the bailouts. As of February the US spent $1.7T in bailout money in about one quarter (90 days). Some of which went to auto companies, ostensibly to save the jobs that were lost anyway when plants and dealerships were closed after the car companies burned through their bailouts.
Halliburton provided a bargain compared to that boondoggle.
Apples and kumquats Frank.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Yea, really. Halliburton actually did something for the money. The whole Halliburton thing is only bandied about by those who do not know history. The company has had contracts with the Federal government as far back as the LBJ administration. Just another of the lame stream media talking points. All BS and no facts.

[Art]

More toward Made in the USA topic. Halliburton is providing revenue back to the US from overseas contracts. They do pay their taxes, employ US citizens, and maintain a ROE of nearly 17% with little debt. XOM also is a good corporate citizen, paying taxes and bringing out of country capital into the US. Even the villain dujour WMT provides more jobs in the US than the government in some areas (Harrisburg, PA for instance). In fact throw in ESEA and CPB and you would have a nicely diversified portfolio. . . .that provides you a quarterly check better than t-bills. . . Yep, the villified companies are often the best investments. . . . Why, because they are profitable, don't require support from the government, and their employees spend in the USA because they still have jobs.

Disclosure: I own HAL stock and bought it during the frenzy about how expensive it is to build infrastructure in a war zone and how that must be related to VP Cheney having a $15K (yes, that's fifteen thousand, wowsers) HAL 401K, and HAL stock options.
(Gee, I wonder how that would relate and what order of magnitude we would be talking if we considered the speaker of the houses' holdings and government contracts and support associated with them? Nvm, we can't go there or risk being called an angry mob. . . ) We can do the innuendo
We can dance and sing When its said and done we haven't told you a thing . . . .

[W3SLK]

Art said:

We can do the innuendo
We can dance and sing When its said and done we haven't told you a thing . . . .

Welcome back Art. We missed you, (at least some of us did) 

[Art]

Tnx Mikey. never really gone, just quiescent. 'winter project is an 80M ant. . . .
w0ba

[W1RKW]

I hope Ford sells these 495,000 cars under the CFC program in order to meet the demand. Hope their timing is good.  They may get stuck with some of these vehicles when the program ends if one considers the other manufacturers involved or competition.  The CFC rebate program will only provide 667,000 vehicles at $4500 per trade-in and 857,000 vehicles per $3500 trade-in assuming $3billion is all that is allocated to the program.   And how long is the program going to last?  Maybe a month at the rate they're currently going. What will it do for the overall economy. I don't think much in the grand scheme of things but hopefully not. My thinking is it will only produce an erratic blip for local economies, nothing for the national overall economy and then its status quo until the national economy picks up in its natural cycle as everyone follows suit. CFC is a band-aid for a select few and not a benefit for all.

[k4kyv]

I don't know if the CFC  has any controls to prevent the dealers from jacking up the price of the new car so they can double dip.  Even without CFC, many dealers still offer around a $5k trade-in for the old POS, but jack up the negotiated selling price of the new vehicle by about the same amount, so the buyer thinks (s)he is getting a discount.

You are better off just buying the new car without the trade-in, and selling the clunker for best offer.  If CFC takes enough clunkers off the road, the remaining ones might actually command a little real money.

[WA1GFZ]

I thought I heard haliburton was moving their HQ off shore? WUWT

[K9ACT]

Reality Check.... from Financial Times today....

 Cash-for-clunkers boost Japanese car sales

By Bernard Simon in Toronto

Published: August 17 2009 22:45 | Last updated: August 17 2009 22:45

The US’s cash-for-clunkers scheme, designed to bolster Detroit’s embattled carmakers, is turning out to be an even bigger boon for their Japanese rivals.

According to data published by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on Monday, Americans are using the scrappage incentives to buy more vehicles from Toyota than any of the three Detroit carmakers.

js

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Reality Check.... from Financial Times today....

 Cash-for-clunkers boost Japanese car sales

By Bernard Simon in Toronto

Published: August 17 2009 22:45 | Last updated: August 17 2009 22:45

The US’s cash-for-clunkers scheme, designed to bolster Detroit’s embattled carmakers, is turning out to be an even bigger boon for their Japanese rivals.

According to data published by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on Monday, Americans are using the scrappage incentives to buy more vehicles from Toyota than any of the three Detroit carmakers.

js

Cash for Clunkers is saving jobs up and down the entire auto supply chain, from dealers to assembly workers and parts markers. Cash for Clunkers also helps autoworkers across the country. Many of the Toyotas and Hondas sold in the program are made by American workers right here in this country. The program achieves multiple goals in that it stimulates auto sales, increases the overall fuel efficiency of the cars on the road, and people will be driving safer cars. I personally don't care if they're buying lots of new Toyota's, Ford's, Honda's or Zippo's - everyone wins.

[Art]

"Cash for Clunkers is saving jobs up and down the entire auto supply chain, from dealers to assembly workers and parts markers. Cash for Clunkers also helps autoworkers across the country. Many of the Toyotas and Hondas sold in the program are made by American workers right here in this country. The program achieves multiple goals in that it stimulates auto sales, increases the overall fuel efficiency of the cars on the road, and people will be driving safer cars. I personally don't care if they're buying lots of new Toyota's, Ford's, Honda's or Zippo's - everyone wins."

Are you sure? Since the government is fully into a record deficit spending spree, literally we are borrowing from our children to buy cars today. They will be paying back the cost of this program long after the vehicles being purchased are on their way to China as scrap. How about the auto parts industry? Won't they take a hit from people not keeping their paid off vehicles on the road? Won't this add to the debt load on consumers causing further cut backs in their spending? Add that to an already anemic consumer and you reduce spending now. Vehicles purchased today are not purchased tomorrow. That sounds less than profound but it creates a demand today at the expense of tomorrow. That means people will be laid off when the demand abates as money is drained from the program and taxes are increased on all because of the program. As for saving gas, when the information is allowed to be released from the government data on vehicles being purchased you will find (per KBB) the majority of vehicles being purchased are SUVs and trucks. Is everybody winning?
I can support regulation to prevent monopolies as I remember 50 cent a minute long distance. However, if the government had taken over or regulated to the point of controlling the technology would we have 5 cent a minute long distance? I don't think so. The government is not noted for its excellence in management.
I think when the government interferes with free trade everyone loses except the government. This is short sighted for a government of and by the people. Ultimately, this and other ill advised programs will awaken the apathetic and the politico Euro worshippers.
You can't spend your way to prosperity. It is an illusion at the expense of tomorrow.

-ap

[K6JEK]

Reality Check.... from Financial Times today....

 Cash-for-clunkers boost Japanese car sales

By Bernard Simon in Toronto

Published: August 17 2009 22:45 | Last updated: August 17 2009 22:45

The US’s cash-for-clunkers scheme, designed to bolster Detroit’s embattled carmakers, is turning out to be an even bigger boon for their Japanese rivals.

According to data published by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on Monday, Americans are using the scrappage incentives to buy more vehicles from Toyota than any of the three Detroit carmakers.

js

I know some of you guys view California as a foreign country but those Corollas are actually made here in my backyard, in Fremont, CA.  I don't know if the guts are made in their US plants in West Va or in Japan but the cars are assembled here in what might be the last hurrah for car manufacturing west of the Mississippi.  It's the only plant still operating in the West and it's probably a goner now that GM is pulling out of the NUMI Toyota/GM joint venture. 

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Not to mention that the program is so ineptly run the dealers aren't getting the rebate money from the government. What a joke.

Clunker-Gate.

[WA1GFZ]

So I guess $>6T in 8 years would not be considered record defecit spending

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Not hardly when compared to $2T in 6 months. Did you stop keeping track?

So I guess $>6T in 8 years would not be considered record defecit spending

[N0WVA]

Why would I get rid of the car that is paid for to go into debt and pay sales tax?

Doesnt make a whole lotta sense.

[Art]

"So I guess $>6T in 8 years would not be considered record defecit spending"

Not no mo. There's absolutely no restraint on the spending now (admittedly, there was darn little restraint in those 8 years. . .  particularly the last two.). . let's play a little projection game: if you spend 1.7T in 3 months, how much will you spend if you are allowed to do this for 8 years? That would equal something like 6T in one year. Congratulations Frank, you have a new winner. . . .and the grand total is $48T in 8 years. Now take the 3T or so that is extorted from those who work for a living per year in the US, deduct operating and pandering expenses of say 2T (yes, I know this is low but I am hoping we fix the problem sooner than later) and apply the rest to reduce the spending spree less interest. In that case it will be significantly more than 50 and more like 100 years until the US is solvent. However, that won't happen because the dollar will be devalued to pay back these huge sums. (AKA "monetizing" the debt) That is called inflation. It won't be long before this is biting you and everyone else who has saved for their retirement in their southern extremities. . . .it won't fall on just your (grand)childrens standard of living. Enjoy your new car.

Speaking of which, if you buy an American car the workers are employed and the profit goes to an American company and is spent in America. If you buy a car made in the USA for a foreign company workers are employed and spend their wages in the US but the profit goes there and is spent there. Perhaps an American car (or preferably a Zippo) is the right choice if you cannot resist the urge to spend your childrens way of life.

0ba

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Art, please stop bringing logic and facts to this discussion.

[Art]

Steve, Have I achieved disruptor status yet?
-----
"Why would I get rid of the car that is paid for to go into debt and pay sales tax?
Doesnt make a whole lotta sense."

Wow, someone with common sense. Extrapolating from that, I think you want to live within your means, be responsible for yourself, and create a better way of life for the future? Hmmmm, very suspicious.
-----
"These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov."

Be careful my friend common sense may soon be outlawed and the book burned in the town square.

There is another thing that was made in the U.S.A.: Freedom of speech is part of it. Has this become outlawed. Can this actually be undermined and disestablished by the government? Courts have said no many times but still this kind of behavior persists. If so, what next?

0ba