Cash for Clunkers

[K6JEK]

Congress is proposing a cash for clunkers program, cash towards a new, assembled in the USA car for your eight year old polluting, guzzler.

This really rung my bell.  Since when is an eight year old car a clunker?  Modern cars reasonably maintained last 200,000 miles.  At 15K miles/year, that's 13.3 years not 8 which is 120,000 miles.

This is green?  About 75,000 miles worth of greenhouse gasses  (if that's what they're talking about) are emitted during the manufacture of a car according to Scientific American.  If you trash the car at 120,000 and get a new one, you'll produce twice as much greenhouse gas during the next 75,000 miles as you would if you just kept the old beast going until the ripe old age of 195,000 miles. Twice as much!  Wait.  What if the new car get's better mileage? Doesn't that change the equation?  Yes it does. But the break even point for the next 75,000 miles is infinite mileage. If the new car uses no gasoline, no electricity, no natural gas, nothing at all, it would produce the same greenhouse gas emissions as the old car.

The other pollution in manufacturing must surely offset the slight difference in other tailpipe emissions from the oldie vs the new car.

They're obviously trying to goose the auto industry and maybe put a little green paint on the program but the philosophy really grates on me.  I was taught to fix things not throw them out.

Here's a link to the article in the SF Comical.  I'm sure your local paper covered this as well.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/04/01/BUPI16QS5Q.DTL

[k4kyv]

They got the idea from Germany.  They have started a similar program over there.  Basically a stimulus program for the auto industry.

More of the wasteful, throw-away mentality.  If I don't get at least 200k out of a car, I feel cheated.

That's like a state law here that says that they must replace school buses after 12 years, regardless of the number of miles on them or the mechanical condition.  Someone pointed out that in all the years they have had school buses in this state, there has never been an injury accident caused by mechanical failure of a bus.

School buses are basically light trucks, the same as the ones used for commercial hauling, but with a different kind of body on the same chassis.  The trucks routinely last for over 250,000 miles, and they travel at breakneck speeds.  As anyone who ever gets behind a school bus on the way to work in the morning knows, school buses poke along, rarely exceeding 45 mph.  The average mileage on a retired bus after 12 years here locally is something like 125K. Those buses could no doubt still be running perfectly after 25 or 30 years.

There was a bill introduced into the state legislature to extend the number of years.  Guess who is lobbying strongly against the change - the companies that manufacture school buses.

Before the price of gas fell through the bottom, that car replacement scheme might have worked.  People would have taken the money in order to get rid of their gas-guzzling SUV's. But I don't see that happening now.

There was a substantial jump in the number of reported fires (insurance got too hot) and thefts of SUV's when gas was up close to $5/gal. As if for some reason more people would have suddenly wanted to steal one just while everybody else was wishing they could get rid of theirs. 

[WB2YGF]

Send the clunkers to Cuba.  They'd get another 50 years out of 'em. 

[WA1GFZ]

HMMMM, my 1996 Pontiac at 120K is running fine should I spend $24 k to replace it. My 01 Silverado with 105K runs like new should I spend $25K to replace it??
We had a layoff this past week and pres of co. was in India looking for cheap help,
don't think so. Wanna fix the economy put Americans to work and stop helping everyone else......you collect more taxes that way, DA!

[WB3LEQ]

Cash for clunkers is like a bad dream that just keeps on coming back.  It was just defeated in February:
http://www.semasan.com/main/main.aspx?id=62519

[k4kyv]

Next they'll introduce cash for boatanchors legislation, to buy up anything with tubes in it for the crusher, to be replaced by a ricebox.

There actually was a program in the 50's that wanted to collect all vacuum tubes not in use, to keep them out of the hands of the "rebranders".  They were paying something like 5¢ per tube.  "Any tube, any condition. Dig 'em up from the garden" the ads said.  No telling how many vintage tubes went to the crusher under that program.  I suspect the real motive was to rid the market of used and surplus tubes in order to sell more new tubes.

Then there was the campaign, about the same time, to rid the country of the evil of carbon filament light bulbs.  These lamp filaments tend to have a negative resistance characteristic that sometimes would make them self oscillate at VHF and cause TVI.  Carbon filament bulbs may literally burn for decades, and back in the 50's it wasn't uncommon for bulbs manufactured at the turn of the century to still be in use.  The deal?  They would swap even, one for one, a carbon filament bulb for a modern tungsten filament replacement of the same wattage. They promised that all bulbs collected would be crushed to guarantee that they never interfered with another TV again.

I recall a few years ago a flea market vendor at Dayton was selling antique carbon filament light bulbs with the little tit on the glass envelope for about $30 each.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Pretty sure Florida just passed a similar law. Father-in-law sent his old '70 Chevelle bought new to the salvage yard because it had been sitting and stuff kept breaking (this was after he put about a grand into it, I wasn't told until it was long gone). Some of the extreme greenie-weenies tried this in VT years back in a different way, pushing a law to prevent salvage yards from selling parts off cars more than 10 yrs old or such, in hopes of running those old, polluting cars off the road for good. The antique car folks got pretty hot, passed the word, and it was soundly crushed.

Considering the relatively small number of truly old cars on the road(say, 25 yrs or more), it got me wondering if it wasn't more an attempt to keep folks from buying older vehicles to dodge the under seat black boxes, computer controlled ignition and so on. Cars beyond a certain year were also exempt from emissions testing, IIRC.

My next vehicle is going to be a pre-2000 model year, and good ol' American made.

[k4kyv]

Considering the relatively small number of truly old cars on the road(say, 25 yrs or more), it got me wondering if it wasn't more an attempt to keep folks from buying older vehicles to dodge the under seat black boxes, computer controlled ignition and so on. Cars beyond a certain year were also exempt from emissions testing, IIRC.

In this state, cars built before the advent of seat belts are exempt from seat belt laws.  My kid restored his grandma's 66 Chrysler Newport; it has only lap belts, no shoulder harness.

Wouldn't it be easy for someone with a little knowledge about automotive electrical systems to disable the under seat black boxes and computer controlled ignition?  I have  never heard that it would be illegal anywhere to do so.

Something that is becoming more and more pervasive is speed cameras and red light cameras.  These are usually installed by national money-making companies that collect the fines and share a little of the revenue with the local authorities, but they are primarily intended to be revenue generators, not road safety enhancement. 

Unlike the cameras in the UK, perhaps as a measure against vandalism, these cameras are usually mounted at elevated positions near  the top the same support poles that hold up traffic signals, so the camera's view of the  number plate is from a high angle, well above the road surface.  Some  company is selling a number plate cover that  looks like Venetian blinds, designed to obscure the numbers from elevated positions, but that is so obvious.  I am wondering about the possibility of embedding the shield into a thin sheet of plastic so that it would work kind of like the "privacy shields" available for laptops to prevent people from snooping over your  shoulder when you are using the computer in public places.  But it would need to work only at vertical angles, and not at horizontal angles, so that to someone standing at street level, or to a cop in a patrol car, the numbers would be visible as normal, with no obvious louvres designed to obscure the plate.

[W1RKW]

I modified the fuel/air intake system on my 94 Ranger to suck in HHO gas to increase the fuel mileage last year.  A buddy of mine who operates a service center  and emissions testing station ran an exhaust analysis on it and the exhaust essentially checked out normal while increasing the fuel mileage on the Ranger by 4 mpg. He also connected his computer system to monitor the effect on the engine when the HHO system was on.   He could see the fuel injectors reduce their duration under various speed and load conditions. The end effect, there was actually an improvement in the exhaust while reducing the fuel consumption. 

I'm coming up to the point of replacing Old Barney.  He's seen better days.  I intend to get another older vehicle to beat on and experiment with.  Screw paying tens of thousands of dollars and screw the government with their ridiculous rules.

If I remember correctly and I could be dead wrong, modification to a pollution control device is against the law.  Beyond that anything is OK fine. 

[k7yoo]

Should I sell my '67 Coupe DeVille to the GuvMint? There is enough steel in Floyd (that is his name) to build a whole passel of TATA's or whatever them newfangled Injun cars are called.
Seriously--all of the new stuff has RF ID and a variety of other little gizmos you don't even know about. Link that with the giant e-mail database now in existence (started in UK today) and you won't be able to pass gas without being recorded.
One thing I like about BA's is that the only chips they have are in the paint!
Skip

[Tom WA3KLR]

Bob,

I wonder if you caught the last half of Dateline NBC last night, where Chris Hansen did a story on Dennis Lee and an automobile attachment he sells through installation dealers.  It uses water, which Dennis says converts the water to hydrogen.  He claims at least 50 % mpg improvement guaranteed in his promo.  Dateline bought a used Honda Accord and had it measured on a EPA lab dynamometer at 34 mpg highway.  Then had the Lee device installed, the installer now claimed 96 mpg.  Back to the EPA lab and the same gas mileage, 34 mpg.

[K3ZS]

In my area of Pennsylvania, the vehicle pollution inspection consists of pressure checking the gas cap and having the result sent to the state capitol by a special computer system.    The inspection stations usually charge around $30 for this.    It would be cheaper if they would let you get a new gas cap every year and waive the charge, but not in this idiotic state.   If you have less than 5000 miles since your last inspection you are exempt from this even if your gas cap is 15 years old.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

One small step... and the next is:

First cash for clunkers, then, you can't sell your Truck or SUV to another private party you HAVE to turn it in for a Gubbmint "Voucher" which will be used to buy the Green Machine (with satellite driving reporting for tax purposes etc) that the Government owned Automakers will  be building... You will also have to purchase the prerequisite "Carbon Voucher", and pay an additional tax if you drive more miles per week than authorized.

If you keep your Old Clunker, you will be hit with a carbon penalty tax, and/or an excize tax.

The way to totalitarianism is not through a vast all at once take over, but by a sequence of tiny, seemingly unimportant or annoying changes. Until its too late. to do anything.

[Tom WA3KLR]

Doing this from memory - when I was in Singapore on business in 1996, I found out that they had a no-clunker law.  When you bought a car, you bought a "license" to have the car.  It ran for about 8 years.  You could pay a BIG fee and have the license renewed for 2 more years and then that was it; you had to get rid of the car.

Of course being in stinking 95 % humidity all of the time (except for the monsoon) I can imagine what some cars looked like at 10 years.  The cars on the road actually looked very nice as a result of this policy.   No lack of seeing Mercedes-Benz and Rolls Royces in downtown Singapore.

They also controlled gasoline purchases.  Because the gas was cheaper in Malaysia, commuters were buying their gas in Malaysia.  New law came - when you were at the border crossing leaving the island for Johore Malaysia, your gas gage was checked.  You had to have at least 80 % full tank.  You've heard about the bubble gum law there and the zero tolerance for drug smugglers - execution.

[k4kyv]

You've heard about the bubble gum law there

This law was created because people disposed of gum incorrectly by sticking them under places like chairs or tables. Incorrect disposal of gum led to this law banning gum. Chewing gum is banned in Singapore under the "Regulation of Imports and Exports (Chewing Gum) Regulations." Except for chewing gum of therapeutic value, the "importing" of chewing gum into Singapore is absolutely banned, as in bringing it in large amounts.

A common misconception among citizens is that personal use of chewing gum is allowed into Singapore. However, according to the set of Regulations, "importing" means to "bring or cause to be brought into Singapore by land, water or air from any place which is outside Singapore ..." any goods, even if they are not for purposes of trade. The set of Regulations also does not make any provisions for personal use of quantities to be brought into Singapore. Therefore, bringing chewing gum into Singapore, even small quantities for whatever purpose, is technically prohibited.

Perhaps you could make your own.

[WB3LEQ]

Cash for clunkers has to be backed by a large financial special interest group that made huge financial political contributions to our legislators.  Maybe it was from the major US automobile manufacturers and/or the UAW?  There has to be a reason as to why a bill that was defeated returns so quickly to be voted upon again.  There is a lengthy discussion about "How special interests are writing our laws" in the May/June 2009 issue of "Backwoods Home Magazine"  This magazine is not politically based and deals a lot with home repairs, gardening, canning, recipes, and basic old time self reliant living.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

Cash for clunkers has to be backed by a large financial special interest group that made huge financial political contributions to our legislators.  Maybe it was from the major US automobile manufacturers and/or the UAW?  There has to be a reason as to why a bill that was defeated returns so quickly to be voted upon again.  There is a lengthy discussion about "How special interests are writing our laws" in the May/June 2009 issue of "Backwoods Home Magazine"  This magazine is not politically based and deals a lot with home repairs, gardening, canning, recipes, and basic old time self reliant living.

Yea, wonder why the new federal CEO fired the GM CEO and board members to have them replaced with UAW guys?


I used to be mad about the government taking over everything. Now I am just afraid, very afraid.

"The State is Mother, The State is Father..."

"There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live—did live, from habit that became instinct—in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized."

[KB2WIG]

                                        :<(

[K5MO]

More social engineering by the thought police.

I'm gonna go warm up the 454 and make some carbon...

John K5MO

[W1VD]

Better run it while you still can...the carbon police will shut it down if they have their way. What's it in? LS6, M22 70 Chevelle here. Any other BB owners on this list...?

Jay

[Opcom]

just get one of these.

no electronics, no monitoring, gets 8MPG.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

Yea, 8mpg, but it'll probably burn any flamable liquid you feed it too.

I've seen em run on JP-4. JP-8, diesel, and once mogas (not too good) we were supposed to mix the mogas at some ratio with diesel but I forget.  It was a long time ago that I drove a Deuce and a half.

Slow and sturdy describes them best, and if they had the winch on the front bumper you were good to go.

no big blocks here, but the '73 'vette under restoration will do when finished...

[W1TAV]

Time for me to turn my car in to the government! Or maybe I'll just use it to heat my house??  After 82 years on the road, it can't be too reliable any more.. Also  it does cause a lot of interference on HF...

[Ed/KB1HYS]

you are not supporting your economy!!  What if EVERYONE kept their Capitol items and just fixed them up instead of scrapping them and buying new ones!!  My GOD Man!! Anarchy!!   

Or maybe a somewhat slower, but much sounder culture??

nahh..

[k4kyv]

I would be considered a piss-poor "consumer" (I despise that word).  If everyone had my spending habits, this economy would have tanked decades ago.  Our whole economic system is based on waste.  That's the reason for all the recent spending on "stimulus" packages and bail-outs.  We weren't wasting enough, so the extra spending is a necessary to get things back on track.  No politician would dare to seriously attempt to change to a sounder, steady-state, no-growth economy.  That would take a real revolution, and everyone is too afraid of the chaos that would follow. Plus the greedier elements would be deprived of their gravy train.