Cash for Clunkers

[Ed/KB1HYS]

As usual Don, you've hit the Nail on the Head.

[WB2YGF]

I would be considered a piss-poor "consumer" (I despise that word).  If everyone had my spending habits, this economy would have tanked decades ago.  Our whole economic system is based on waste.  That's the reason for all the recent spending on "stimulus" packages and bail-outs.  We weren't wasting enough, so the extra spending is a necessary to get things back on track.  No politician would dare to seriously attempt to change to a sounder, steady-state, no-growth economy.  That would take a real revolution, and everyone is too afraid of the chaos that would follow. Plus the greedier elements would be deprived of their gravy train.

To be fair, it's a different world.  A major reason things are not repaired is that it's just not cost effective unless you can do it yourself, and even then, you are probably not putting a high enough value on your own time.  Manufactured goods were once VERY expensive relative to the typical wage.  Can you imagine people darning socks today?  It takes about 120 seconds of your salary to buy a brand new pair.  You couldn't sew fast enough to break even. It's hard to compete with high speed machinery.

My 3 year old 23" LCD monitor crapped out. The flat rate cost to fix it was about the same price as a brand new one with more features and a fresh warrenty. Practically all cheap consumer electronics are like this.

Good or bad, if people didn't upgrade their stuff all the time, there would be no money for R&D to make stuff better. (I know, better is subjective.)  If we all kept our XT's running Wordstar there never would have been resources available to develop the Pentium.  Our desire for more better faster cheaper drives innovation.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

Electronics yes, clothes, yea well if they are sewn in a sweatshop then yes also

as far as time goes, considering the amount of hours the average American spends watching TV, you can't argue that spending time doing anything else is wasted... time spent Darning socks would be better spent than that same time in front of the brain-sucking-light-box. 

Automobiles, Large appliances and such?

Last I checked I could put a rebuilt engine in my chevy for ~3500 or so with reasonable labor way cheaper if I could do it myself.
 
A New chevy PU (if you will still be able to buy them) runs 20K+   Cost stavings of 16k to keep the old one.

Even better, if you maintain your vehicle properly, it's last for ever, at a fraction of the price of a new one.

I kept my '93 ford ranger until last year and it was still running like a champ at 15yrs old, and I spent the minimum money on maintenance repairing what was necessary and doing lots of work myself, used/rebuilt parts.  The absolute only reason i traded it in is that the frame rotted beyond what I could repair, and I didn't have the resources to replace it.

People just think that cars need to be changed like socks, when in reality, they can last ten years or more with care. (although this computerized with lot's of bells and whistles chevy is questionable in my book. Finding a new "brain" in ten years could be tough.

[WB2YGF]

I don't repair my own cars.  I track my TCO/mile on a spreadsheet. The initial purchase cost is amortized over a longer period, while at the same time, the cost and frequency of repairs goes up.  For me, time and time again, the curve goes flat to a constant cost per mile after about 6 years or so.

If the TCO/mile would infinitely decrease, it would make economic sense to hang on to the clunker forever, but if I am going to the same endpoint TCO by buying a new car, I might as well enjoy the new car at the same eventual cost/mile. Of course, YMMV.

[k4kyv]

To be fair, it's a different world.  A major reason things are not repaired is that it's just not cost effective unless you can do it yourself, and even then, you are probably not putting a high enough value on your own time.  Manufactured goods were once VERY expensive relative to the typical wage.  Can you imagine people darning socks today?  It takes about 120 seconds of your salary to buy a brand new pair.  You couldn't sew fast enough to break even. It's hard to compete with high speed machinery.

I never tried darning socks, but if I knew how, it might be cost/time effective when you consider the time it would take to drive to the store, find a new pair, wait in the check-out line, and drive back home, plus the cost of the gas (or bus fare).  I used to change my own oil when I had a car whose filter was accessible.  I kept a stock of motor oil and filters, so when it was time to change, it was much quicker than driving to a service provider, waiting for my turn, waiting for the service to be performed, and then driving back home.  Now, the car that I have has the engine mounted sideways and the filter is inaccessible unless you have a lift or pit.  And there are the quick-lube places everywhere, so I just take it there.  The longest I have ever waited is about 10 minutes.  It would take me that long to put on my work clothes and clean up afterwards, and the nearest place is only about 10 minutes  from here, so they are time effective, and cost effective too if I put any value on my time.

But I avoid Jiffy-Lube, ever since the reports came out that numerous ones had been caught in the act of not performing the service they charged the customer for.  I use the Shell-lube place near here, and when I have checked afterwards, the oil was always fresh, and I trust that they changed the filter too.

When the oven in our kitchen gas range crapped out, I called the service man from the gas company, since they originally sold it to us new.  He came out and said the glow plug was bad, but that you couldn't get a replacement because they weren't made any more, so the best thing would be to trash the whole stove and buy a new one.  I figured how to remove the glow plug, and took it to an appliance parts store near here and asked if they could get me a replacement just like the old one.  The guy went to the back, and returned about 5 minutes with an exact replacement in hand.  I think it cost me $15.  I returned home and installed the new one, and the stove is still working.  That must have been 8 years ago.

Our clothes dryer is about 25 years old and still running fine.  I have done several major repairs, replacing parts that wear out with use.  Our old Maytag washer bit the dust several years ago and I finally did replace it with a flimsy new one, because the motor finally crapped out and the chassis was rusted through in several places.  I doubt if the new one will last a fourth as long.

I had to replace a $750 oil heater a few years ago because a $5 part had been "discontinued" and I  couldn't find an aftermarket or used replacement anywhere in the country.  The guy at the company asked me what did I expect, "after all, that heater is fifteen years old!"  When am I supposed to need a replacement part, when it is brand new, six months old, a year old?  Just about the time an appliance has been around long enough for some of the  parts to wear out and fail, that's when the manufacturer "discontinues" the replacements.   Classic planned obsolescence.

[WB2YGF]

I never tried darning socks, but if I knew how, it might be cost/time effective when you consider the time it would take to drive to the store, find a new pair, wait in the check-out line, and drive back home, plus the cost of the gas (or bus fare). 

Well that's because your example is a dumb way to buy socks.    If I know some of my socks have seen better days, I pick up a 5 or 10 pack at Sams Club.  Since we shop there once a month anyway, the transport cost is zero.

The last bunch of socks I got at the outlets.  I got some shirts at Van Heusen and they gave me a $5 coupon for Bass (both divisions of PVH).   I used it for a 3 pack of very high quality Bass athletic socks on sale 1/2 price.  I think I paid $2 total. 

We have fixed our range a couple of times.  It was  probably 15 years old when we got it and we got another 15 years out of it.  Our new one is all touch-screen electronic.  I keep a service contract on that puppy.  Its like the Icom Pro II of ranges.

[kb3ouk]

We just got a new GE washer about a year ago, and had to have the motor in it replaced already. The service guy claimed that a power surge or even a cordless phone could have messed up the control circuit and that messed up the motor. Anyway,  they don't make stuff like they used to, that's why if there is something I want to get( say a new AM-FM radio) I'd rather find an older American made set instead of buying a new foreign made thing that will blow up in no time. And that goes for anything, especially American made cars and trucks made before they got high tech. And the advantage of older cars, trucks, tractors, radios, etc. was that you could actually work on them your self if you knew what you were doing.
Shelby KB3OUK

[WB2YGF]

We got a Sears dehumidifier.  It lasted about 18 months and crapped out.  Then I got another one, this time with a service contract,  It lasted about a year and the blower motor went.  Meantime I had gotten a service contract on the older one rather than throw it out and had it fixed (blower motor.)  I have lost count of how many blower motors have gone, but they last about a year.  This is a known issue with this product but it never seems to get fixed.  I just keep the contract on and get a new motor every year.  Ridiculous.

[WQ9E]

I just replaced the "exhaust purge" blower on our not quite 2 year old Luxaire furnace that was installed when we added on to the house.  The cheap blower has a plastic wheel mounted to the motor shaft via a wire spring like device that applies tension to the plastic hub to hold it on the shaft.  It shifted enough that the wheel was starting to drag.  The furnace does have a 5 year parts warranty so it only cost me a little bit of time to replace but the labor is not included so for the average homeowner it would have been far from free.  By comparison my 15 year old Amana furnace in the older part of the house uses a metal wheel held on with set screws for the same function and both it and the main blower motor have lube ports for a once a year shot of high temperature oil; the newer furnace has "no maintenance" bearings instead.  I replaced the igniter in the Amana a couple of years ago and other than cleaning and lubing it annually it has been completely trouble free.  I am not feeling so confident of the newer unit.

I imagine hams in general and vintage gear enthusiasts in particular are more likely to repair things instead of replacing them.  My father was a child during the great depression and during my childhood I received a strong indoctrination against waste.  I am not sure I liked it then but I am sure happy about it now.  Five year old daughter Anna was shocked a couple of weeks ago when her airplane broke and her friend told her she would have to get a new one; her response was Daddy always fixes my toys.  In return, last night she promised me that when she grows up she is going to build a robot that will fix my radios.  I can hardly wait!.

Rodger WQ9E

[WB2YGF]

Our Burnham/Beckett boiler has been going strong for over 15 years.  Still looks like new.

[k4kyv]

My father was a child during the great depression and during my childhood I received a strong indoctrination against waste.  I am not sure I liked it then but I am sure happy about it now. 

My parents were in their 20's and 30's during the great depression.  My father's family were farmers, and I recall hearing stories from my grand parents about how they had very little money and had to watch every penny to survive, but they grew their own vegetables, raised chickens and pigs and had dairy cows, so they always had more than enough to eat.  They made many of their own clothes out of animal feed and flour sacks.  So I had the no-waste philosophy engrained in me from childhood on.

It used to amaze me what people would throw away when I lived in the Boston area.  I would cruise the streets the night before trash pick-up day to see what was on kerbside.  Furniture, books, dishes, tools, appliances. I would grab only stuff that I thought was really valuable or had antique value or something I actually needed or thought was just too good to go to the dump. We never bought a TV back then.  I was always able to keep a working TV picked from the trash.  Usually it was something simple; a crapped out fuse or power resistor or blown fuse, but sometimes they worked perfectly first time.  If I couldn't easily fix a TV or anything else I picked up, I would salvage any useful parts and put the rest back out next trash pick-up day.

[N0WVA]

Gotta get those old cars off the road.......they dont have GPS. All cars must have GPS. There are reasons.

[WB2YGF]

We never bought a TV back then.  I was always able to keep a working TV picked from the trash.  Usually it was something simple; a crapped out fuse or power resistor or blown fuse, but sometimes they worked perfectly first time.  If I couldn't easily fix a TV or anything else I picked up, I would salvage any useful parts and put the rest back out next trash pick-up day.

When I was a teen, my parents were pretty frugal and wouldn't dream of spending good money on a color TV, so I got a color set off the curb on "clean up week".  I replaced some bad tubes, aligned the convergence, and she was good to go.  It lasted several years.  Then when the picture tube finally went, they didn't want to go back to B&W and they got a new color set.   

[Ed/KB1HYS]

i am amazed at the shear number of TV's at the dumps electronics pile. It seems the Digital switchover caused many peopel to just junk their old sets instead of picking up a converter box. 

I wonder of those how many had cable and didn't need the box anyway.

I've picked up a lot of microwaves and other stuff from there, most of them worked fine when plugged in. 
A little cleaning would have been all that was needed to make them serviceable.  but then those microwave ovens are dirt cheap.

We used to joke about the Shiek who bought a new Mercedies when the ashtrays were full... 

[WB2YGF]

i am amazed at the shear number of TV's at the dumps electronics pile. It seems the Digital switchover caused many peopel to just junk their old sets instead of picking up a converter box. 

I think a good part if it is upgrades.  Everybody wants a flat panel now.  It's a shame the OLED models didn't come out sooner.  Much more power could be saved.

Our township does not offer curbside pickup except for seniors so not much scavenging here.

Our county recycle center is open once a month.  (No scavenging allowed.) There is a huge line of cars in a steady stream for 6 hours.  There are different stations set up for different materials.  The PC/TV station has monitors stacked neatly on pallets.  When the stack gets high enough, the pallet is shrink wrapped and loaded into a huge truck.  There are about 5 workers at this station.  You pull up and they remove the computers, monitors and TV's from your car for you, and then you drive off.   

The last time I went, I saw a 60 inch rear projection table top unit.  The guy probably upgraded to LCD.  In 3 years he will want an OLED.

[k4kyv]

Our county recycle center is open once a month.  (No scavenging allowed.)

But I bet there is a sign there asking people to "recycle" to save landfill space.

There is a "no scavenging" sign at our dump too.  But DILLIGAF if I see anything in a dumpster that looks worth fishing out.  If they wanna  get nasty, the crew of OF retirees who work there as attendants can call the sheriff on me.  Guaranteed I'll be long gone by the time he shows up.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

Our sign says "No Salvaging" which I interpret to mean no disassembly of things on site (thats my story...) .

Besides, I don't think they guys running the landfill really care if you don't make their life any harder.  If I was to be making a huge mess of things that they would have to clean up, I'm sure they'd be all over me then. But usually I pull up, take a quick look see, toss anything good into the truck and leave. Anything I take is one less thing they have to toss/load/carry so I figure they'll stay neutral.

[N0WEK]

Considering the relatively small number of truly old cars on the road(say, 25 yrs or more), it got me wondering if it wasn't more an attempt to keep folks from buying older vehicles to dodge the under seat black boxes, computer controlled ignition and so on. Cars beyond a certain year were also exempt from emissions testing, IIRC.

Wouldn't it be easy for someone with a little knowledge about automotive electrical systems to disable the under seat black boxes and computer controlled ignition?  I have  never heard that it would be illegal anywhere to do so.

 

The problem is that the boxes don't just control ignition any more. They now control the fuel injectors, timing and nearly everything else in the power train like automatic transmission, traction control and anti-lock brakes. You could also argue that they're part of the pollution control system that you're not allowed to mess with.

At the very least you'd have to strip the whole engine down to the block and install a new intake manifold with carburetor and install a magneto or point and coil ignition system and have a manual transmission. The fringe benefit would be that you'd be EMP proof. You'd also be illegal under the emission control laws.

The up side of all this stuff is that it now seems that your lawn mower puts out more pollution doing your lawn than a modern car puts out in about 100 miles.

Also, I drive about 30,000 miles for work per year and I wouldn't want to do it in the 55 Chevy wagon I learned to drive in, cool as it was. That said, my 1993 Mazda PU still runs fine, but I don't like doing long trips with it, I only put about 1,500 miles per year on it these days going to the dump and Home Depot. It's still in fine shape for long trips but my Mazda 6 has me spoiled with handling, cruise control and quiet, not to mention much better gas mileage.   

[k4kyv]

Besides, I don't think they guys running the landfill really care if you don't make their life any harder.  If I was to be making a huge mess of things that they would have to clean up, I'm sure they'd be all over me then. But usually I pull up, take a quick look see, toss anything good into the truck and leave. Anything I take is one less thing they have to toss/load/carry so I figure they'll stay neutral.

I think that's the attitude most of them have.  They will yell at you if you try to climb down inside the dumpster, though.  When I go to the dump I always carry along a hook I made from a 1/4" steel rod, for fishing purposes.

Occasionally you will run into an attendant who takes the "no scavenging" sign seriously.

A few years ago at our dump, the attendant who worked there used to collect lawn mowers that were dropped off, set them aside and take them home after work.  He ran a small lawn mower repair business out of his garage, and the ones he couldn't repair and sell, he junked for parts.  He said that a lot of the ones people threw out didn't have anything wrong with them at all.  But he eventually had to quit doing that because some asshole reported him to his supervisor, who told him he would be fired if he was caught doing that again.  The old man was so pissed off that he would pitch a fit to anyone he saw pull anything out of the dumpster - if he couldn't do it, damned if he was going to allow anyone else to.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

That's just plain stupid, (the part about the supervisor stopping him that is) he was really recycling old items, and keeping them out of the waste stream.
I wonder why they would stop him? Liabliity?

Seems foolish. Probably got turned in by some lazy ass who was jealous that he was making more money, even though it was through his own labors to do it.

When people can make money on recycling is when it will become wide spread.

[WQ9E]

Liability is the issue.  For example, lawn mower gets dumped because the original owner realizes the bolt holding the blade won't stay tight anymore.  Dump administrative authority ignores that one of its workers is retrieving and reselling dumped merchandise.  The next mower owner's child is injured by flying blade and everyone in the chain gets named in a suit. 

The old work-around of having a signed waiver releasing the "owner/authority" from liability doesn't work well anymore either.  Now, you are likely to have to prove that the person signing the waiver had full understanding of all of the risks associated with "dumpster diving" and if you cannot then you have a big problem.  Although in specific cases this makes sense it doesn't make good overall policy.  If one of us went by a lemonade stand operated by a 7 year old and offered to give the kid one of our 30's style open construction transmitters in lieu of a quarter obviously that would be a ridiculously dangerous act even though the danger was explained.  But in our society a 30 year old who got tetanus from a scratch while dump harvesting would have nearly the same odds of winning a court case as the lemonade stand kid's parents, VERY SAD!

I have been a professor of marketing for over 20 years and product liability issues were my first research interest in marketing.  I stay away from that area now, otherwise I would be on every blood pressure med known to medical science because of the absolutely ridiculous legal cases in the area.  Instead I have spent much of the last 15 years doing research and consulting in enterprise risk management which, among other things, helps protect organizations from exposure to some of the liability actions due to people who would not have grown to adulthood in a normal risk environment.  We all pay a significant price for idiots and their "right to sue, not despite their stupidity but actually because of their stupidity". In addition to the general increase in product prices to cover liability exposure we also lose access to useful products since the risk exposure is too high for the company to engage in production and marketing. 

I spent some time in Germany in 1994 and attended a Landesgartenschau and in one section they blindfolded the visitors so you could experience the aroma, feel, and sound of the garden show without being distracted by sight.  While crawling over landscape boulders and avoiding hitting trees and falling into a pond I realized if this were in the U.S. this would be a target rich environment for the ambulance chasing subset of attorneys.

Now for some deep, cleansing breathing exercise...

Rodger WQ9E

[W9GT]

Liability is the issue.  For example, lawn mower gets dumped because the original owner realizes the bolt holding the blade won't stay tight anymore.  Dump administrative authority ignores that one of its workers is retrieving and reselling dumped merchandise.  The next mower owner's child is injured by flying blade and everyone in the chain gets named in a suit. 

The old work-around of having a signed waiver releasing the "owner/authority" from liability doesn't work well anymore either.  Now, you are likely to have to prove that the person signing the waiver had full understanding of all of the risks associated with "dumpster diving" and if you cannot then you have a big problem.  Although in specific cases this makes sense it doesn't make good overall policy.  If one of us went by a lemonade stand operated by a 7 year old and offered to give the kid one of our 30's style open construction transmitters in lieu of a quarter obviously that would be a ridiculously dangerous act even though the danger was explained.  But in our society a 30 year old who got tetanus from a scratch while dump harvesting would have nearly the same odds of winning a court case as the lemonade stand kid's parents, VERY SAD!

I have been a professor of marketing for over 20 years and product liability issues were my first research interest in marketing.  I stay away from that area now, otherwise I would be on every blood pressure med known to medical science because of the absolutely ridiculous legal cases in the area.  Instead I have spent much of the last 15 years doing research and consulting in enterprise risk management which, among other things, helps protect organizations from exposure to some of the liability actions due to people who would not have grown to adulthood in a normal risk environment.  We all pay a significant price for idiots and their "right to sue, not despite their stupidity but actually because of their stupidity". In addition to the general increase in product prices to cover liability exposure we also lose access to useful products since the risk exposure is too high for the company to engage in production and marketing. 
I spent some time in Germany in 1994 and attended a Landesgartenschau and in one section they blindfolded the visitors so you could experience the aroma, feel, and sound of the garden show without being distracted by sight.  While crawling over landscape boulders and avoiding hitting trees and falling into a pond I realized if this were in the U.S. this would be a target rich environment for the ambulance chasing subset of attorneys.

Now for some deep, cleansing breathing exercise...

Rodger WQ9E

Interesting comments Rodger.  I have wondered why the prices of antennas and rotators seem to have completely gone through the roof.  Must be product liability issues to protect manufacturers from the "idiot factor" where candidates for the Darwin awards try to install antennas near power lines, etc. and fry themselves in the process.  I know aluminum prices have gone up, but not that much!

73,  Jack, W9GT

[WQ9E]

Interesting comments Rodger.  I have wondered why the prices of antennas and rotators seem to have completely gone through the roof.  Must be product liability issues to protect manufacturers from the "idiot factor" where candidates for the Darwin awards try to install antennas near power lines, etc. and fry themselves in the process.  I know aluminum prices have gone up, but not that much!

73,  Jack, W9GT

Jack,

When I was in the MBA program I drove one of the professors to the emergency room after he managed to drive two elements of a TV yagi into his thigh while taking it down so you don't even need power lines.  This same prof also sunk two boats during my year in the program.  He invited me to go deep sea fishing with him on several occasions but, given his track record, I always found a reasonable excuse to stay on dry land.  Of course the accidents were never his fault (he was also a lousy prof).

Rodger WQ9E

[KB2WIG]

 " He invited me to go deep sea fishing with him on several occasions but, given his track record, I always found a reasonable excuse to stay on dry land. "

Ya shuda gone and sueed him if the boat sank..... 

I cant look at water withought suffering PTSP; I have to sit to use the bathroom;fish scare me;now, I take spungebaths ....  etc

[WB2YGF]

Ya shuda gone and sueed him if the boat sank..... 

You can't enjoy the money very much if yer drowned.