Oil Heat

[WA1GFZ]

TNX Jay, My error was my output from the furnace burinng .85 GPH.
It was a guess after looking at the burner specs. I guess oil is still cheaper even running the opec monster. I need to go back and check all my numbers now that you posted your chart. fc

[Bill, KD0HG]

Well, this discussion has me almost ready to rip out the propane boiler and replace it with an electric one. In this area, propane is running about $2.25 a gallon, and my electric rate is .086/KWH.

This has been an unusually cold winter around here and we've been using nearly 200 gallons a month. That's about $450/month for 18,266,000 BTU of propane. My boiler is ~ 80% efficient, so $450/mo for 14,613,000 BTU/mo delivered into the heating system.

1 KWH of electricity = 3413 BTU, so the equivalent of my needed 14,613,000 BTU is 4281 KWH/mo.
At .086/kwh, that's $368/mo for electric vs. $450/mo. for propane. And propane isn't going to get any cheaper, especially if someone farts in the Middle East. Plus I can get a $450 rebate from the REA for the $1,395 electric boiler, costing me less than $1,000. The hydronic heating controls and etc. will all interchange, making installation a piece of cake.

I'm seriously looking into this for a summer project...

[k4kyv]

Isn't the major cost for a geothermal heat pump system the wells that have to be dug?  I have also heard of a type that simply uses horizontal pipes buried a couple of feet in the ground, but I fail to see how that could be tremendously more effective than an ordinary heat pump that uses the outside air as the heat reservoir.  Here, the frost line is only a foot or so beneath the surface.  Building codes specify that foundations are to be at least 18" below grade.

We have an unused water well.  It was taken out of service decades ago when utility water became available, mainly because it would frequently run dry in late summer, but that would never be a problem here during heating season because the ground nearly always stays saturated from about Thanksgiving until mid-spring.  The well is an old fashioned hand-dug one, and only about 30' deep, but it's about 3' in diameter, so the volume of water should make a good thermal reservoir, and I don't know if it would be enough to support a geothermal system.

[W1RKW]

Frank,
Here's my break down for my 2300sq. ft. colonial.

10/07    126gal
11/07    no delivery
12/07    176gal
1/08      164gal
2/08      146gal
3/08      no delivery

Compared to previous years my oil usage is less.  For those same months,  the oil consumed would  have averaged around the 200 gallon mark. One year averaged around the 215gallon mark. This year was easier on the heating bill.  I'm expecting a delivery sometime in April.  That should carry me until the end of June.  The next delivery after that should be in September and the whole cycle will repeat itself.  Of course that depends on degree-days for the next year.

Having glass on the south side of the house helps considerably. At times it will get into the mid 70's downstairs on a nice sunny day in the dead of winter.  With the thermostat set at 68 that zone never calls for heat during the day.

I have 3 zones on programmable thermostats that go up and down depending on the living schedule.

[WA1GFZ]

Well Bob,
Sounds about right you have more area but maybe a smaller footprint. I have 130 square feet of glass on the South side. Maybe I should consider more than one zone. Solar room isn't used much at night so heat only keeps moisture off the glass. Front of the house is Kitchen and livingroom while the back is the bedrooms.
I guess we will all need to turn it down or pay big bucks. Man I'm glad the new place is only 1340 square feet. Kind of wished I stayed at 1000.

[K3ZS]

Don-

My niece's geothermal system uses two deep wells.   According to a few web sites, the ground temperature doesn't change more than 5 degrees at a depth of 4 feet.   I would suppose that you could have a long narrow ditch about 10 feet deep to snake the refrigerant pipes through and that would work too.    I think having water in the well would transfer the heat more efficiently.

[Bill, KD0HG]

I just came across an interesting concept- Adding a second electric boiler in series with an existing gas or oil boiler...You sign up with the electric company for peak-non peak metering (time of use metering).

My REA's on-peak rate is 6-9 AM and 4-9 PM. Off peak rates apply all other daily times, weekends and holidays. On-peak rate is .14/KWH and off-peak rate is .048/KWH. (Regular rate is .086/KWH). The idea is that you use the electric boiler at off-peak times to take advantage of the cheaper rate, and you use the fossil fuel boiler at peak times, if you have to.

In my case, that cuts the potential electric bill for heating in half.

Since my boiler heats a radiant concrete slab with a huge amount of thermal inertia (30-odd tons of concrete), I wouldn't even need the fossil fuel boiler. 16 hours a day plus weekends and holidays is non-peak billing at half the rate.

I'm really starting to like this...

[WA1GFZ]

I have 30 yards of rock and concrete for passive storage. I can keep the heat off for 12 hours on a sunny day in January. Works very well with snow on the ground. Light reflects off the snow.

[W4EWH]

I just came across an interesting concept- Adding a second electric boiler in series with an existing gas or oil boiler...You sign up with the electric company for peak-non peak metering (time of use metering).

That's a great idea, and I've seen it used well ...

BUT

... be sure that you check the components carefully: boilers have both a maximum outflow temperature limit and a maximum inflow temperature limit, and I've seen them ruined by being attached to pre-heated water when that wasn't what they were designed for.

HTH.

73, Bill W1AC

[W1VD]

House here was built in 1972 as an all electric 1300 sq ft raised ranch. In 2000 a major renovation and addition added about 750 sq ft. During that renovation the electric baseboards were yanked out and a Buderus oil boiler installed (oil was still cheap at the time). Two zones - #1 for the main part of the house and #2 for the three bedrooms. Thermostats in each bedroom control their own valve essentially splitting the #2 zone into three separate sub zones. Required more copper but was worth it. Also burn wood as partial heat. In a typical heating season fuel consumption runs about 350 gallons of oil and about 2-1/2 - 3 cord of wood.

I heard China is building a bunch of nukes (power plants) this year...   

[Bill, KD0HG]

I just came across an interesting concept- Adding a second electric boiler in series with an existing gas or oil boiler...You sign up with the electric company for peak-non peak metering (time of use metering).

That's a great idea, and I've seen it used well ...

BUT

... be sure that you check the components carefully: boilers have both a maximum outflow temperature limit and a maximum inflow temperature limit, and I've seen them ruined by being attached to pre-heated water when that wasn't what they were designed for.

HTH.

73, Bill W1AC

Thanks for the heads-up, Bill.

Can't find a minimum or maximum incoming water temperature spec for my existing Crown propane boiler...I'll need to look into that more. I really like the idea of being able to switch on the fly between propane or electric.

[WA1GFZ]

Well, just freaked out. XYL just had the place at 65 and I had enough bumped it to 68 heated the place then moved it back down. (I'm impressed she usually likes it warm)
I used to burn about 350 gallons making hot water when I burned coal. Sounds like a good idea using multiple zones. 3 would be easy here and I would only need to add one return line.
We really need to get back to using nuke power. Heck the Navy can do it.
Best way to guarantee safety is make the owner live down wind.
My biggest problem is air quality in both places. It takes about 4 hours to get a headache if I lock all the windows. I need to build an air exchanger to make the place any tighter.

[K6JEK]

I think it would be smart to start taking all the sugar out of products we eat and start turning it into fuel.

I wonder if we can burn Twinkies directly.

I don't know how you're fixed for space but if I had the room I'd be tempted to try geothermal.   Awhile back I Googled around and found a site that helps do-it-yourselfers do geothermal.    Dig a trench. Put some coils of PVC in it.   Hook up the geothermal heat pump.   The cost of heating and cooling is the lowest out there, even lower than air exchange heat pumps in any but the mildest of climes.   The issue is the daunting installation costs which are greatly ameliorated if you're handy with a back hoe.  That and having the room.   

Here's one outfit that wants to sell you a kit:

http://www.geothermaldiy.com/

Looks like a fun project to me.

Jon

[WA1GFZ]

I had 100 feet of PVC well pipe when I did the basement floor so said WTF and put it around the footing inside the basement. maybe I need to run a  speriment and see if I can extract anything from it. Time to homebrew a machine. Here I have a stream in the back yard but water is only 4 feet below the surface at the other place. Must be nothing but a pump and some sort of an orface

[flintstone mop]

I love my pellet stove. I  bought 2 tons for $488 delivered and that's my heating bill for the Winter in Western Pa. We have a nice warm house around 72 F and we boil a little water on the stove on a very low flame for the humidity. The drawback is the Ham shack and the Flintstone studio are only in the low 60's on the days it's only in the teens outside. Leaving the flourescent lights on and closing the  doors keeps these areas around 68 F.
Fred

[Tim WA1HnyLR]

Since I moved into the trailer I am in now shareing the space with Marce I have always heated with oil heat. I have super insulated the structure . The walls have 3" of foam insulation plus 6" of fiberglas in the outer shell. All windowns have been replaced with thermopane units with additional screen and storm windows. There is a pitched roof with 22" of fiberglas over the trailer roof not to mention the value of additional insulation in the ceiling. As a result I use about a full 275 gallon barrel of oil. As it was I had the tank filled last Summer before the prices went nuts. I have run a number of high current electrical circuits in this place . It does not take much to heat this place. With the cost of electric power for heat becomming more on a parity with oil makes it very attracive.Iam debating wether or not to fill the tank this year. In past years I have used the big W, Woodoline. I have a woodoline stove and metalbestos fluepipe that is going to be installed this year. There is plenty of forest around here to use for fuel.I also have some ideas on building some solar hot air collectors that should also help supplement the heat. We generally maintain an indoor temperature of 62-64 degrees. It is comfortable for both of us. It is also healthier too. A heat pump system seems very attractive.I would go the geothermal route and install a burried heat sink system. Much work. I have a two line closed loop waterline from  my well . I once had a jet pump system which required two waterlines. When I lost the pump in the fire of '92 I picked up a submirseable pump and installed it . I tied both waterlines together at the pump. I  used a typical hot water heating system circulating pump to circulate the water through a heat exchanger. I placed a 20"  box  fan behind the transfer coils. I had an effective air conditioning system. The system has been offline due to a leak. I will reinstate it.One thing most people seem to forget is that a big hollowstate transmitter can make much heat. As it is just having the SX62  reciever on for a number of hour s does raise the room temperature by a few degrees. My little linear amplifier with a pair of 3-400 zs makes the operating room very warm when making a number of old buzzard transmissions. I am going to have an airducting system to circulate the room air from the operating room to the rest of the place. We all must have big transmitters to run in the cooler WX to combine operating pleasure with heating your abode. Yep, the Blockbuster linear amplifier will become my new furnace.De Tim WA1HnyLR

[WA1GFZ]

So if you nicad in RX mode hopefully you won't freeze and become another Ice Man dug up in 5000 years.
 The new place I put over head lights in each room. A 60 watt bulb throws off a lot of heat. I have Two layers of R30 overhead and 1 inch of foam. Walls R25 unfaced plus inch of foam and an air gap. R67 and R35 so it doesn't get much better than that. 
Yea, The 4X3 needs to get back on for winter operation. Class e is just too cold