Oil Burner, gas burner, hp questions..

[W1ATR]

I figured the "How's your AC?" thread a couple months ago was handy for a few, so here's it's evil twin.

The heating thread.

Any questions, park 'em here.

[W1RKW]

Hey Jared,
I've been considering dumping my oil burner/boiler for a multi-fuel furnace/boiler, one that will do oil, coal and wood. I have a hotwater baseboard heating system.  Does such a beast exist?  I've only been able to find forced hot air type systems and if hotwater based systems do exist what can one expect to spend for the unit and installation.  Home here is 2300 sq.ft with 3 zones.  A rough number is OK.

[W4EWH]

I've been considering dumping my oil burner/boiler for a multi-fuel furnace/boiler, one that will do oil, coal and wood. I have a hotwater baseboard heating system. 

I recommend you do a lot of research and talk to as many actual users as you can before making a decision. There is a lot of hype in the alternative fuel & furnace industry, and you can't make an informed decision until you hear from those who've already learned from the experience. Most importantly, you need hands-on experience using such a system before you buy one: when I was considering an alternative-fuel heating plant, I spent two weeks at a cabin heated by wood, during the winter, and decided fairly quickly that I'm a child of the Nineteen-sixties, not the Eighteen-sixties.

I saw a multi-fuel boiler in use at a ski resort I visited, and the owner cautioned me that it was useful only because he had a very large woodlot criss-crossed with cross-country ski trails, which he had to clear anyway. He also said that coal would have been much more expensive than he'd thought, since using it would have required special filters on the chimney. In addition, he revealed that he had ruined a hot-water heater by feeding preheated water into it, without doing any research on the water heaters which are specifically made for this use.

Before you price a new furnace, remember that you can pick up used wood stoves, sometimes just for the asking, from those who have discovered that making trips to the woodpile every couple of hours isn't as much fun as they'd thought it would be. If it costs you $1,000.00 to get a used wood stove safely installed and operating, consider it cheap compared to what you'll spend on a complete alternative-fuel system.

As a first step, try spending a month with your home thermostats set to 55 or 60 degrees so that you can gauge your family's reactions to the wider temperature swings and generally lower average temperatures that are customary with alternative fuels.

HTH. YMMV.

73, Bill W1AC

[W1ATR]

Hi Bob.

I have my reservations on those combo units as far as reliability and efficiency go. Efficiency on the oil side is a little low due to the need for larger flue passages to deal with the wood side. In the event you run out or can't deal with wood, the oil bill goes through the roof.

Second is the reliability. Not a lot of the parts on those units other than the parts on the oil burner are standard truck stock. There was few times I had to leave customers holding the bag over a control solenoid or damper controller that's proprietary to that manufacturer.

Personally, I wood suggest offsetting the oil usage with a wood stove or other external source rather than having my eggs all in one basket. But, just in case you happen to be a glutton for punishment, there's companies like Benjamin, Aquatherm, Charmaster, and so forth that make high quality gear, but get your checkbook out.

Just re-reading here. For our area, 2300sf normally insulated construction, your unit would need to be around the 120-140,000 Btu range. 140K would be slightly oversized, but it would leave you with a little headroom for the really cold nights. Just the unit itself would probably be in the 2500-2800 range,(That's just off the top of my head), and the install costs would vary depending on parts and labor actually needed to do the swap.

Grab the info off your boilers tag and put it up here when you have a chance. I just want to see what it is and if it would even be worth it to swap up to a newer unit.

SK
Jared



 

[Bill, KD0HG]

Jared:

Is there any difference in the reliability of hot water circulation pumps?

In the 10 years since we built this place, I've had two Armstrong Astro 50 pumps fail- the shafts had seized. OTOH, a Taco pump has been fine. Last month I replaced the last failed Armstrong pump with a Bell & Gossett.

Having two pumps of the same type and brand fail within 10 years bugged me a bit. They should have lasted longer, IMO.

The heating system here is a bit complex, propane-fired boiler, heated concrete slab on the ground floor using Wirsbo pipe and baseboard units upstairs. There's a mixing valve in the system to keep the relative water temperatures correct, hotter for the upstairs baseboard radiators and cooler for the water circulating in the slab.

Also, do you recommend the use of glycol in my system or just plain water? I've seen opinions both ways.

[W1EUJ]

Q: I have a 1700 sq. ft. 1-floor house built in 1952, with basement and attic. It is heated in two zones - living area and kitchen/dining room - by a new (2003) gas boiler. The living areas are heated by 'convective' radiators, and the kitchen/dining is heated by baseboard. By far, the dining room is the coldest, because the all three sides are made up of windows, or the attached greenhouse. The potable hot water is supplied from a 40 gal. gas water heater.

I've weatherstripped, covered my old drafty double-pane windows not yet replaced with Frost-King film, turned down the potable HW thermostat down to 115 deg., installed programmable thermostats (and programmed a better-than-suggested program in), and insulated all my hot water pipes. I'm going to install more fiberglass in the attic after I return from my vacation in the Philippines this Jan., and will be replacing old windows and doors in the summer.

The YL and I have been discussing what we can do to further reduce our gas consumption - we are both thinking that gas prices will be increasing beyond inflation in the future. Ideas like: setting up the infrequenly used office (on the living area loop) as a seperate zone with a zone valve, replacing the pilot in the furnace with an electrically ignited one, augmenting with solar heating, using on-demand water heating, turning the thermostat WAY down (to 50) when we are out...

Besides tightening up the house, which we are planning to do, what changes get the most bang-for-the-buck?

Thanks for the thread!

David Goncalves
W1EUJ

[W1ATR]

Hi Bill.

If I had 10 cents for every astro I tossed in the trash, I'd have room full of kw-1's They're probably the worst circ on the market. (Also the cheapest)

The Taco is good and most common, and the b&g will outlive most most boilers as long as it gets oiled once a year. (If it;s the smaller oil free b&g, that's fine too, it's still good stuff.

Radiant floors rule, don't they. Unless you have a part of the piping system exposed to freezing air, like in the attic, then I wouldn't suggest antifreeze in the system. It gets acidic after two seasons and starts to eat everything from the inside out. Usually the damage will show up first around gaskets and valves and so forth.
 

[W1ATR]

Dave:

By far, the fastest return on investment would be insulation. At least 15 inches in the attic is considered normal. Zoning helps cut usage a little as you only need to heat the areas your in, but because warm air tends to migrate towards cooler air,(difference in pressure), the zone's you are heating will tend to run more often. Therefore, the savings is only slight, No big bang yet.

Now for the big bang.(lets see how many search engine hits that phrase gets.)

Lots and lots of houses are not built with enough radiation. The baseboards running around the outside walls have a rather low transfer efficiency, and a rather high cost. This leads to builders running less baseboard in any particular room than whats actually needed for the climate. There's also a lot of "skins" out there. Those are the sections a lot of plumbers install as patches to finish the run. Ex: Lets say you have 20 feet of baseboard in a room, but if you look down into it, there may be sections that are just a copper pipe, with no aluminum fins, that's a skin. Absolutely useless as far as heating is concerned and only intended to complete the last foot or so of a run. But, lots of installer abuse this and install 5 feet, 8 feet, or whatever when they should really be putting in fin and tube.

"If you can't get the heat to the air, your wasting fuel."

 The most direct way this can be shown is to take the temperatures right at the boiler off the supply pipe and return pipe. Plenty of times, I've clamped my thermocouples onto a brand new install and measured the temps right in front of the customer and there would be a only a couple degrees difference between supply and return. 15-20deg+ good, 2 degrees, not so good. This lack if thermal transfer to the living space causes the thermostat to keep the boiler running forever until the space is finally satisfied. That extra running could be a HUGE friggin waste of heating dollars up the flue. I did a favor for a builder years ago that was getting sued by his customer and he needed to show the heating guy didn't do his job. In a nut shell, that customer was using 500% more fuel than the house needed due to severe lack of baseboards for the sq/footage-load calc.

You can have the newest most efficient boiler on the market, but you have to get the heat from the water to the air. Look around the house and make sure the radiators are dust free,(<that's a big one), look for things blocking the movement of air through these rads, like furniture and long curtains. Keep couches a foot or so away from the wall. If you have a bed in front of a rad, move it away a bit.

We've been talking about investing in a FLIR camera to do inspections as this is hands down the best way to detect problems with heat loss, (also applies to cooling), but it's that first 20 grand that hurts.

Keep going after all the small fixes as well however, all those dimes will add up in the long run.

SK

 

[WA1GFZ]

so take Ct. for an example how many gallons of oil should it take to heat a 1500 foot ranch with hot water included. 4 people. I think we do about 800 gallons a year.

Burning wood is a big pita unless you get it for free. coal is great but a bit dusty.
I did both for years and would prefer a gandi mart  part time job over either if it got too high.

[W1EUJ]

> The most direct way this can be shown is to take the temperatures right at the
> boiler off the supply pipe and return pipe.

Thanks for this suggestion - I'll try this. I checked the baseboard - except for the ends and turns, the area is finned.

>We've been talking about investing in a FLIR camera to do inspections as this is
>hands down the best way to detect problems with heat loss, (also applies to
>cooling), but it's that first 20 grand that hurts.

Fortuntely for me, the YL is an engineer for a company that makes IR imaging equipment, and we used one of her imagers to view the heat from the radiators, and the cold spots on the old doors and ceiling. Are there any other techniques for IR camera use for inspection?

Last question: I notice in the living room that we tend to get this noticable 'stratification' of the heat, where the ceiling air is very warm, but the air at couch-level is cool. Could this be due to actual stratification, or could this be loss through the floor (floor isn't noticably cool to the foot or hand). Haven't seen it in the camera yet, I'll try another cold day.

Thanks for answering my questions so far. Great thread!

David Goncalves
W1EUJ

[Bill, KD0HG]

I collect used pallets from our building owner and saw them up for fuel.
Free wood, and since many are oak hardwood and well dried out, excellent burning, lotsa BTUs. I almost prefer burning them to our locally available pine.

Doesn't take long to cut up a week's worth with the electric chain saw, the only downside is all the nails we eventually fish out of the fireplace ashes- LOL.

Jared, thanks for all of the insight. You should be teaching a class in HVAC theory. It's absolutely amazing what a shoddy job some builders do, and they usually can get away with it.

Here's how we're heating the first floor slab. Used wire ties to attach the Wirsbo PEX pipe to the mesh rebar before the concrete was poured, all over a few inches of blueboard insulation. Each zone marked off with spray paint. XYL and I did it in two days and a case of beer. Saved a szitload of money. Best invention since sliced bread.

[W1ATR]

>Last question: I notice in the living room that we tend to get this noticable 'stratification' of the heat, where the ceiling air is very warm, but the air at couch-level is cool.

This can result from cold air migrating through the floor. This is pretty common with cantilever construction, such as a high ranch, where the cold outside air finds it's way in through the soffit where the main floor overhangs the basement/lower level. If you have a basement, try putting some insulation around the sillplate if you can get to it. That's a common area for cold air infiltration.

Thermal stratification can also come from 'overheating', believe it or not. If you had too much baseboarding, the room air is heated too quickly, and a noticeable separation floor to ceiling happens before the air blends at the center of the room. Only real cure is to close the flaps on a couple sections of the BB. This is a HUGE problem in my house with the steam heat and cast iron accordion rads I have. The rad surface temps when cold out and the boiler is 'going for broke' are 230-240 degrees or so, and the wave of hot air rising from them will almost float a sheet of printer paper, yet, the center of the room is cool. I help this problem somewhat with some well placed 5" muffin fans, and it seems to do the trick.

When she brings home the IR cam, try looking at the house from the outside, just make sure you have a barf bag handy.


hey, what'd r u talkin about willis. You live in Enfield, who cares what a gallon of oil costs. Us poe folk here in Waterbury are sweatin the oil truck now like it's a pirate ship rolling up to rob you.

Seriously, 800g/yr probably not that bad for 4 considering you use it for HW all summer. How is the domestic water made, coil in the boiler(worst, as the boiler fires every time you wash your hands), booster tank/boiler mate alongside the boiler,(not too bad, slow recovery, still sucks), or separate oil fired water heater,(best, fast recovery, low firing rate, and the boiler would be off in the summer).


Bill:

>Ah, what do you expect for only $250,000?

Those are called the McMansons. Look good on the outside, but built on the 20 year plan. (Won't last more than 20 years.)

I did a bunch of gas firplaces a couple years ago in a new development close to here and they weren't no 250g, they were 750,000 and up, big 3500s/f monsters. We were working in one and the customer, an Indian woman, (dot on forehead kind) was assragging this builder over the coals something serious. She was screaming at him, "These cabinets, they are SHEET." (She went to open a cabinet door in her new kitchen and the door came off in her hand) I was laughing so hard, I thought I was going to pass out. I had tears rolling down my cheeks and had to go outside.

Radiant floors are by far, the best way to go. Everything is warm from the floor up including you.

SK

[KB2WIG]

What do one do when one (the wife) wants to buy a house w/ forced air heat -- she wants central air, when the other one grew up w/ hot water heat... 

dem on the wall AC units any gud???   klc

[W1ATR]

Depends on the style and floor layout of the house. Those on the wall deals are called Mini-splits. Small unit(evaporator and blower) up on the wall, and the suitcase sized condenser outside. Not too bad, but they'll leave cold and warm spots around the house.

Forced air heat will dry out the snoot while you sleep. A humidifier on the furnace will help with this, to a point. If the air is too dry while you sleep, nose bleeds will be become a common part of your life. There's about a million different sinus problems that run the gamut from minor to silent key. The nasal cavity is an extemely sensitive area and not to be f*d with. Besides, mold just loves ductwork.

I'll pass on the forced air bacteria distribution system, thanks.

If you guys are looking at houses that have hydronic heating, but also have an attic over the living area, then central can be added to the house for about the same cost as two mini-split systems installed.

Food for thought

SK

[W4EWH]

Just re-reading here. For our area, 2300sf normally insulated construction, your unit would need to be around the 120-140,000 Btu range. 140K would be slightly oversized, but it would leave you with a little headroom for the really cold nights. Just the unit itself would probably be in the 2500-2800 range,(That's just off the top of my head), and the install costs would vary depending on parts and labor actually needed to do the swap.

Grab the info off your boilers tag and put it up here when you have a chance. I just want to see what it is and if it would even be worth it to swap up to a newer unit.
 

Please post the make and model of controller you use: if your furnace was sized "by zone", we'll need to know that before we start. It will also help to have exact measurements of your floor space, and the number of linear feet of baseboard, plus the type and size of other radiators.

It's also helpful to know what you spent on heating, at least during last winter: a year or more of data would  give better results.

73, Bill

[W1ATR]

Yeah, we'll do an over the internet Manual J load calc on his house, then send him a bill.

I just wanted to see what the boiler is. If it's a hundred years old, or newer.

Many moons ago, I had someone asking a million questions regarding system setup and how to do an accurate load calc. I sent him this crazy list of needs like room sizes to the 16th of an inch, how many sq. ft was the roof, how many walls faced the west where the sun goes down.

Didn't hear from him after that.

[W4EWH]

The YL and I have been discussing what we can do to further reduce our gas consumption - we are both thinking that gas prices will be increasing beyond inflation in the future. Ideas like: setting up the infrequenly used office (on the living area loop) as a seperate zone with a zone valve, replacing the pilot in the furnace with an electrically ignited one, augmenting with solar heating, using on-demand water heating, turning the thermostat WAY down (to 50) when we are out...

Besides tightening up the house, which we are planning to do, what changes get the most bang-for-the-buck?

David, here are a couple of things to consider:

• Zone valves require a "Zone controller", which can cost hundreds of dollars.
• Turning the temperature down works only if you do it every time you leave the house. Regular "setback" thermostats are only usable when the setback schedule doesn't change, so you'll need to be religious about turning the temperature down whenever you leave.
• Solar heat (although I'm no expert) depends a lot on things like lattitude and average number of sunny days, and it requires a lot of storage and pumps. Be sure to consider all the costs.
• The biggest bang for your buck is not insulation, but cutting off air leaks. Before you spend for insulation or solar, invest a few dollars in spray foam and caulk, and block all unintentional air flow to the outside. Don't forget to cover air conditioners, to modernize kitchen hood vents and pet doors, and to use foam backers for AC outlets, especially on exterior walls. Your local power company will often supply the materials as part of an energy audit.

HTH.

73, Bill W1AC

[WA1GFZ]

I'm running a 1960 opec monster with a newer Becket running about 77%
It ain't broke yet so no point in fixing it. Super insulated double 2X4 walls 8 inch stagger. 3 layers of R19 over head. Hot water right off the opec monster.

[K3ZS]

Anyone considering central AC to a hot air system would be wise to spend a couple of hundred bucks and making it a heat pump.    I bet even in 1 land you can save some money over the long run in the heating.   In the hills of central PA, I did that many years ago.   
Burning now 1/4 tank of OPEC gold a year and an electric bill including hot water and water pump of about $120 a month.    That will double in a few years after deregulation ends here though.

[Bill, KD0HG]

One cheap-n-dirty improvement that I believe can be made in an older place is to install an 8" or so duct to the outdoors from the boiler area.

So that the boiler is combusting cold, outside air instead of the nicely heated indoor air that it just made.

Along with the duct you need an electric shutter in it so that it's only open to the outside world when the boiler is burning fuel. Not expensive at all. Add the same sort of shutter to the outgoing vent pipe, too, if code permits it. Only open when you're burning fuel.

FWIW, this ~ 2300sf place uses a 105,000 BTU boiler that's derated because of the altitude down to 80,000 BTU input. It starts to run 100% at -10F to -15F outside, but it rarely gets that cold for a sustained period. If it did, I'd need a larger unit. It really helps to have the thermal inertia of 30 tons of heated concrete downstairs.

That's another improvement that requires creative thinking. Thermal inertia. The more rock, concrete or whatever you can bring inside the thermal envelope, the more comfortable you'll feel. I'm convinced of that. Build decorative walls inside out of brick or stone, let the sun shine on it. A stack of old modulation or power transformers..It's so low-tech that we don't even think about it.

[WA1GFZ]

35 yards of rock and a load of concrete in the solar room stores heat any time the sun is out. We still get into the 80s any sunny day. I love snow on the ground reflecting even more light in. I put copper pipe in the slab and connected it to the heating systems to keep the surface warm on cloudy days. I blow warm air from the room under the slab to store heat.

[KB2WIG]

J,
 
Thanks.  I don't like the noise and dirt of the forced air " bacteria distribution system ".

klc

[W1EUJ]

>Turning the temperature down works only if you do it every time you leave the house. Regular "setback" thermostats are only >usable when the setback schedule doesn't change, so you'll need to be religious about turning the temperature down >whenever you leave.

We don't even touch the digital programmable thermostats on the weekdays. Here is basically what we have:

WEEKDAYS: 12 AM - 7 AM @ 60 deg. 7AM - 9 AM @ 68 degrees 9 AM - 7 PM @ 60 deg. 7 PM - midnight @ 68 deg.
                 (same for kitchen and living area)

WEEKENDS: 12 AM - 9 AM @ 60 deg. 9 AM - midnight PM @ 68 deg. (Turn down to 60 when exiting house).
                 (kitchen is still on weekday sked)

>The biggest bang for your buck is not insulation, but cutting off air leaks.

Right you are. We've cut off alot of the leakage through the old windows with film and weatherstrips. I think we still have many small areas to go - perhaps some areas will show up on the IR camera. Fortunately, we are already beginning to see the benefits, calcuating back from the monthly consumption and degree-days.

On the electric front, after changing some of the old appliances, getting basic cable (thus watching less TV) and replacing all of the incandescents with CFLs, we've seen a dramatic reduction in electric bill.

Alas, even though we make efforts to reduce water consumption, and obeyed the water-ban and let the grass burn over the summer, our efforts were cancelled out by an increase in the water/sewer rates. Ah well...


David Goncalves
W1EUJ

[K1ZJH]

grab the info off your boilers tag and put it up here when you have a chance. I just want to see what it is and if it would even be worth it to swap up to a newer unit.

SK
Jared

Most boilers are  grossly oversized.  I'd suggest doing a heat loss study
before using the old boiler rating as being anywhere  near
correct.  The Slantfin website has a free calculator.

Pete k1zjh

[WA1GFZ]

Where does one go to buy a new furnace if you don't want to be raped by one's oil co? Yea I can sweat pipe.