Primitive Beings here- Ready for Conquest!

[Bill, KD0HG]

A pair of noted space thinkers have resigned from an international body in protest at plans to send out powerful radio signals to alien civilizations. The two men feel that the risks of contact with extraterrestrials - who would need to be much more technologically advanced than humanity in order to visit us - have not been adequately considered.

The signaling that lies behind the concern is so-called "active SETI" (SETI meaning the Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence). Ordinary SETI efforts typically involve using radio telescope arrays to listen for signals sent out by aliens. With active SETI, however, the idea is to beam out powerful signals from Earth, with the idea of attracting aliens' attention.

There are already some organizations sending out signals or one kind and another, hoping to get the attention of powerful alien civilizations. An acrimonious debate has been underway for some time among scientists, astronomers and other people in the field as to whether this is a good idea.

Those against active SETI have been getting angrier in recent years. One such is Michael Michaud, a former career US diplomat who became Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Science and Technology. He has been involved in international agreements and negotiations around the area of SETI for years, in particular as a member of the International Academy of Astronautics (IAA) SETI study group.

"Let’s be clear about this," wrote Michaud in 2005.

"Active SETI is not scientific research. It is a deliberate attempt to provoke a response by an alien civilization whose capabilities, intentions, and distance are not known to us. That makes it a policy issue."

Michaud says that any active SETI efforts should be thought through in advance by the assembled governments of the world, rather than anyone who can get access to powerful transmitting equipment. He quotes renowned brainbox and futurologist Freeman Dyson as saying that:

"It is just as unscientific to impute to remote intelligences wisdom and serenity as it is to impute to them irrational and murderous impulses. We must be prepared for either possibility ..."

Given that the human race lacks any serious space defences, the only preparation against possibly homicidal ET visitors is to avoid being spotted in the first place.

Michaud's concerns are shared by Dr John Billingham, former chief of the NASA SETI office. The Times reports that he and Michaud have resigned from the IAA study group in frustration after active-SETI people refused to consider turning off their signals.

“We’re talking about initiating communication with other civilisations, but we know nothing of their goals, capabilities or intent,” Billingham told the Times.

Some would argue that humanity already emits so much radio that the debate is academic, as we will already have been spotted if we're going to be. An example of this is the Arecibo radar telescope. Arecibo gets used for passive SETI and other listening-type astronomy for much of the time, but it also has a very powerful active-radar mode used to track various celestial bodies in our home solar system. Most of the Arecibo radar emissions beam on out into deep space, perhaps giving away the location of humanity's only sanctuary to murderous interstellar conquerors.

As an example, the people at the Allen Telescope Array - a new, dedicated SETI detection rig built with the aid of $25m from zany Microsoft megawealth figure Paul Allen - reckon that if another race were fooling about with an Arecibo-type setup, they could spot it 1,000 light-years away.

Quite frankly, this whole business sounds like ample justification for a huge atomic space battlefleet coupled with aggressive efforts at interstellar colonization (so that someone will be left after the Earth gets blown up or conquered as a prelude to us all being eaten/enslaved/impregnated with disgusting alien larvae etc).

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/17/seti_brains_resign_over_active_messages/

[Bill, KD0HG]

Let's just hope the ETs aren't tuned to our TV frequencies...

They ought to be picking up I Love Lucy. Sgt. Bilko and The Three Stooges out about 50 light years now.

Not to mention the multi-megawatt radars aimed north watching for Russian bombers.

Or 14.275.

In any case, we're toast.

[Bill, KD0HG]

I agree- The earlier we could detect a rock on a collision course, the easier it would be to deflect it enough.

I dunno. Maybe when civilizations achieve some level of advancement, they invariably screw up and do themselves in. Carl Sagan once observed that it would be an equally profound discovery in either case-  That there's intelligent life on other worlds or there isn't. That question is why we search out there.

[ka3zlr]

I feel the possibility exists, I don't see such a great hurry is needed in doing it...we're not prepared and I believe we're not wanted out there..we kill our own...that has been said to...

[Ed/KB1HYS]

There's a BIG SIGN on the Back Side of the Moon... it says

Beware!!  Here be Savages!!!

[Tom WA3KLR]

"Intelligent" creatures confined to small living spaces for generations of space travel watching Earth television. 

We already know how that turns out!

[Tom WA3KLR]

From Wikipedia, Frank Drake's Equation:

"Considerable disagreement on the values of most of these parameters exists, but the values used by Drake and his colleagues in 1961 were:

R* = 10/year (10 stars formed per year, on the average over the life of the galaxy)
fp = 0.5 (half of all stars formed will have planets)
ne = 2 (2 planets per star will be able to develop life)
fl = 1 (100% of the planets will develop life)
fi = 0.01 (1% of which will be intelligent life)
fc = 0.01 (1% of which will be able to communicate)
L = 10,000 years (which will last 10,000 years)
Drake's values give N = 10 × 0.5 × 2 × 1 × 0.01 × 0.01 × 10,000 = 10."


- - -
There is quite a spread on the estimated answers of course.  I think that this all assumes evolution rather than a Divine Creator placing us where He wanted to; that we formed from sparks and ammonia molecules.

[Tom WA3KLR]

If you listen to the AM show with George Noori, the facts are that we already have one hundred types of aliens visiting Earth.

[WD8BIL]

If you listen to the AM show with George Noori, the facts are that we already have one hundred types of aliens visiting Earth.

Ohhhhh..... so "Men in Black" was a documentary !!!!

[KB5MD]

 ;)They're probably all "sidebanders" anyway.

[WB3JOK]

we're not prepared and I believe we're not wanted out there..

That reminds me of my favorite Calvin & Hobbes cartoon...

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".

-Charles

[WD8BIL]

Why is it we place ourselves on the bottom of the ladder ?

Perhaps there is other life out there and WE'RE the most advanced !!

We ain't heard from them because they ain't got the where with all to hear us..... yet.

[Bill, KD0HG]

That's a good observation, Bud. I'm afraid our culture's opinion of possible life elsewhere has been impossibly tainted by generations of sci-fi flicks depicting slobbering, malevolent beings bent on mayhem and destruction. Part of the appeal of Star Trek was stories breaking out of that mold.

Us humanoids don't exactly have a great track record when completely different cultures have met.

[W3RSW]

I joined classic SETI years ago; was fun but felt my computer needed rest at night instead of being constantly on 'hot' and 'high' speed fan. ho, ho. 

Enjoyed seeing the progress reports but these days there are so many agencies, programs competing for ur 'idle' computer time that it's become pretty 'ho hum.'   My computer is becoming personal again.

Anyway, not too worried about outward bound signals.  Yes, I assume they'll be directed instead of broadcast but they'll still travel only at the speed of light.  As already mentioned on this board and in tons of literature we've already been broadcasting in volumetric, 4 PI space of, say 60 light years diameter at frequencies able to penetrate the ionosphere.  A directed signal will be 60 years...   light years behind what's already transmitted.  Be interesting to see at what distance the directed and supposedly much more powereful later beam is more effective than the noise swallowed, broadcast ones.  Certainly later and of absolutely no use if 'directed' in the wrong direction, i. e., no receivers. (who may or may not deign to acknowledge.)
And then theres the time lag of signals returned.

Given what we posit now about string theory, 'branes', alternate universes, quantum mechanics, etc. it looks like we'll be very happy if someone shows up at ftl speeds and enlightens us.  There'll even be some here who'll say it was because of our signals.  Typical homocentrism. - Might be worth our species happiness just to be shown differently.  And , hey, if we're wiped out then it displays a non altruistic set of greedy human values in at least one other species.  Ought to be worth something on the ol' data curve of universal vaules.  Transmit away!

 BTW many now think that we try to receive laser sigs. at much higher freq, etc. or whatever the latest 'wave de jour' is currently hot, more highly directable, able to penetrated dust, or red-shiftable over greater span of frequencies.  Again, how homocentric..    don't think we have to worry too much. Yes there do seem to be universal constants, the ol' watering hole of 1440 Mhz (H2) being only the first.  I'm thinking that if 'they" are out there, we'll have to do a lot more than shine a light in their face.  Hey, they might be communicating to each other with 'psi' from deep in the atmoshpere of 'normally' opaque gas giants or from the centers of stars for all I know.

[W1ATR]

Snip from BIL:

Perhaps there is other life out there and WE'RE the most advanced.

Keep that statement in mind next time you spin around the TV dial, or see some jackass in an SUV going 80 on an icy highway, or this, or that. <<this list could go in forever..

[WD8BIL]

Aw come on Jared, I'll bet there are ETs that are just as dorky.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

If you want to think you are the lowest form of life in the universe, that is your problem. Don't try to foist it off on the rest of us.

[W1RKW]

Considering the physics involved ie. earths rotation, frequencies and beamwidths involved and points of interest, etc., it seems like this would be a waste of time and money.

[KA1HNH]

Okay hold on to something.
The current SETI project listens to the most unlikely of places, i.e. to places so far away (2M light years and such) If one considers the "age of the universe" that would mean that the civilizations listened to (2M) if human like, would probably be on par with us 2M years ago. Why not listen a little closer, say within the 5 - 1000 light year area. Plenty of "subjects" to concentrate on. I am all against sending, but not receiving. Never know what's out there. Look at our own "subhuman" history. We could all be turned into Soylent (pick your favorite color). And for those who say we are the only ones, ..well...so be you. Anyway just think of the new DX once a target was found. I am still, but not an active member of SETI at home, and cannot believe how there has not even been a credible "potential hit", (see previous) not to mention all the data that was discarded after compilation without examination. By the way Seth Shostak lies. Stepping off my soapbox now, flipping the TX-RX switch to RX.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Sounds like someone got frightened after watching Predator. Hey, if it can take out Carl Weathers and Jesse Ventura.... 

[W3RSW]

"Okay hold on to something. "

what? 

Yeah, gotta pretty much agree.  Searches would be more meaningful in near space. On the other hand, listening only 1mil. LY out guarentees the perception of safety of the originator, but potentially says something about his chicken nature.  So what if the aliens have ftl. Then your screwed or enlightened relatively (p.i.) quickly AND they know your chicken shit in advance. How do they find you?  -two hop triangulation.  I imagine 'their' maps are a 4D set of jumps, base legs, short hops and other fun stuff. 

Now, somewhat removed from the scientific mission....  Ya' know, most organizations sooner or later turn into self sustaining bureaucracies, complete with grant obtaining powers, big donations, bigger cheeze donators, etc.  Once they start building a central headquarters for themselves, then they've all but announced their irrevalancy to their original mission.

Once they start selling bricks, and other 'special' fund drives, you know they're into self agrandizement, big time. The mission is secondary to the sinicure.

[Tom WA3KLR]

KA1HNH's post reminded me that there was one potential hit recorded as I recall.  Isn't it referred to as the WOW phrase, or something like that?

[WD8BIL]

Isn't it referred to as the WOW phrase, or something like that?

Later it was decifered as: "LUCY, I'm home !"

[W3RSW]

Yeah, Tom,  a small patch of loud signal, very early on in the program. Someone will probably look up a reference to it but I basically remember it as a set of "G's, H's, and K's in a sea of "A's, B's and C's, etc.   About two or three rows worth in a grid. Real IBM 80 column stuff in the dark ages.

[Bill, KD0HG]

The name John Kraus came up in the article, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow%21_signal