Proper loading of the Valiant.

[Globeking]

I cant run my Valiant loaded up at 330ma because of interferance issues with the people living close by. Its not this radio. Its any radio over 100-150 watts pep. I pulled one final tube out. This reduced the power. Still producing way to much power. My question is this:

I can run the Grid up to the normal level of 8 and then load the finals to dip at 150ma. This produces a lowly 100 watts and does not cause a problem with anyone. The sound reports are excelent.

I can tune the radio to full output at 220ma (I have two final tubes) and then reduce the drive down to 1.

I am not sure which is the correct procedure. A local ham told me that if I load the finals to dip at a lower MA the power that does not come out to the antenna is being burned up inside the tubes. This does not sound right to me but he was very strong about this... Claiming my tubes would be toast in short order.  How can this be? THank you!

[The Slab Bacon]

You should leave all 3 6146s in the rig. Removing 1 can change the  L-C ratio of the plate tank circuit. Always dip the final for the lowest dip (resonance) and simply load it lighter for the desired output. the reduced plate current will make your finals very happy!

I only load mine for 275Ma plate current at the dip. This gives about 105w output and the audio sounds much better. If you are creating gobs of RFI on the lower bands (like 75m) you need to check your antenna / ground system. It sounds like you have a stray RF problem to me.

                                           The Slab Bacon

[WQ9E]

I would agree with leaving all 3 tubes in the circuit.  With the 6146 you should be OK with lighter loading and normal grid drive HOWEVER these are the conditions that result in the highest screen current and for most tetrodes the screen is the most "fragile" element.  I would be a bit more comfortable with also reducing the drive a little bit just to avoid excessive screen current.  I added screen current metering to my Desk KW so that I can run it at the current legal limit.  The Desk KW was designed to either run low power AM (around 200 watts carrier out) in the low power position or around 700-750 watts output in the high power position which is around double the "new math" FCC limit.  Reducing input/output through reduced loading alone results in much higher screen current and although the 4-400A's can take it there is no reason for this type of operation.  I reduce the grid drive slightly and reduce loading and can efficiently operate the final at 375 watts carrier output and still have plenty of drive for the demands during peak modulation.  Since there is an ample reserve of modulator capability at this level the mismatch in modulator output impedance isn't so critical.

For sweep tube rigs such as the Drakes, Swans, Yaesu, some Hallicrafters, etc. it is critical to operate with normal loading and then reduce the drive if you have to reduce the output level.  One of the easiest ways to kill a sweep tube final is excessive screen current-basically the screen is dissipating all of the "screen input" and there isn't much metal or thermal mass there.  For driving an amplifier with these rigs an external attenuator is very desirable.

Rodger WQ9E

[Globeking]

Thanks for the replies guys.. 

Rodger. Thanks for the tip on Screen current. THats a good point. I understand that removing one tube effects the LC. However my valiant dips smooth and happy with two finals. I even run it with one somtimes to check 6146's. I also do this with my Globe Champion 300A. It runs very happy with one Amperex tube final and tunes by the book.

Thanks alot for explaining that loading the final less is not actualy harder on the tube in some respects. I knew this had to be the case but my local hams INSIST this is destroying the tubes. I think they must be thinking of an amplifier.

I can certainly try thee tubes again with lower loading and a bit less drive. I normaly only drive it to 5 instead of 8 or 12. I am just happy to be able to run this old radio and enjoy it with out causing a problem with the people next door.

[Globeking]

Ask the neighbor to show you their license for what ever piece of junk consumer electronics that you're interfering with, of course they can't, so then show them your FCC license.
Mack

ITs been a 3 year battle Mack. My station is clean and operating as it should. Its the Chinese made low cost TV's and phones. It seems my local police have law over the Federal GOV. They flat out told me that they do not care about the FCC and will take my station and fine me. I backed off after I realized that no amount of help and or letters was getting me anywhere. I have learned to compromise. 150 watts pep is that compromise

[W1ATR]

Hello, welcome to the forum.

What is your callsign? If you have a license in your pocket, the local police have no jurisdiction whatsoever. 11meter guys don't have the same rights as licensed amateurs. The police make this confusion all the time and need to be reminded of where they're authority stops, and the feds kick in.

What band is your interference happening on?

I wouldn't run that V1 without the third final inserted.

[Globeking]

I am a ham. I run 75 meters most of the time. The police sargeant said he does not care about my licenses or the FCC and if I continue he will remove my gear and fine me or put me in jail. What do you want me to do? Get arrested and start a court battle? Move? No thanks. I am fine running QRP Thats not my issue for this thread though. My issue was what is better. Higher grid drive and lower PA loading or low grid drive and higher PA loading.

Thanks!

[KA1ZGC]

The local cops don't have that authority, period. Your station is federally licensed and the local cops cannot pre-empt the federal government. If you have anything in writing from them, save it. You may need it later. I don't know who you've been writing to, but the local cops are just plain wrong. Get yourself a lawyer, and consider complaining to the Marshall's office.

That's all irrelevant to the topic, though.

What you have been told about under-loading is absolutely correct: if the anode circuit is not sufficiently coupled to the load, the current not consumed by the anode-cathode circuit will transfer to the screen-cathode circuit, and you will cook your screens in short order. The tube may not die the way you thought it might, but it will still die.

Using a resistive attenuator should be your last resort. It's counter-productive to consume all that electricity to produce all that RF, just to turn around and convert so much of it to useless heat. It's a huge waste of energy.

For the moment, you can under-load your finals IF you also de-tune the grid circuit somewhat. Your effeciency goes way down, but the screen current will drop in proportion with your grid current and give you a little more breathing room. You don't want to go too far with either intentional mis-adjustment or your spectral purity will also suffer.

What you ultimately will want to do is provide a low-power operating condition. I don't know off the top of my head how the power supply is laid out, but if you can drop the voltages to the finals, you will run at reduced output and have much more tolerance of mis-matches.

There are numerous ways of doing this if the HV and screen voltages are derived from their own supplies. You need only drop the voltage to the primaries of those supplies in that case. If any of those transformers have filament windings, it will be a bit more of a chore.

In a nutshell: if you can cut your B+ and screen voltages in half (and adjust your bias accordingly), you can run the rig at reduced power without shifting inordinate amounts of power to your screens or wasting it in the form of heat. It's been done before, and it would be the most effective means for reducing your output power.

FWIW.

--Thom
Kilowatt Amplifier One Zero Grid Current

[KA1ZGC]

The police sargeant said he does not care about my licenses or the FCC and if I continue he will remove my gear and fine me or put me in jail.

He's bluffing.

You need to have broken a law for him to do any of that to you. Ask him flat out what laws you're in violation of. I'll bet you dollars to doughnut holes he won't have an answer, he'll just get all puffed up and defensive, and threaten you some more.

He's only doing this because you're showing him that you'll let him get away with it, just like any other bully.

It's your call, but letting a bully be a bully doesn't stop the bullying.

Good luck.

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught

[Globeking]

Thanks for the lesson on B+ and The Screens.  I dont see an easy way to drop the B+. I have 124 to 126 volts on the wall outlet (a seperate 30amp line I ran). I put a 30 amp variac inline and cut it back to 115 volts. This seemed to really help. The output is lower, the radio runs cooler and for some reason people asked what radio I was on and that I sounded better?  Not sure how..

Right now I am using Half the Grid drive.. around 4 and I have it loaded to 170MA instead of 220ma (two final tubes) This is producing 35 to 40 watts RMS on the bird. About 140 pep. I pulled the clipper down to knock the top end off. This seems to work the best. I am using an EV 638 mic. I only made one contact this morning and he has heard this station many times and gave it an excelent report.  I hope this wont cook the finals but if it does I can buy new ones I guess.

If I go lower on the grid drive the sound is distorted and the ratio of pep to carrier is off.

[Globeking]

THanks for the concern about the interferance. I am well aware of the laws. I have contacted both forms of Gov and two lawyers over the years. I have chose not to spend the very high amount of money it will take to enforce these federal laws. Its no longer an issue. I just wont run legal limit power and we all get along. Thanks for all the support though guys!

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Maybe they think you're a CBer?   

Begun and held at the City of Washington on Monday,
the twenty-fourth day of January, two thousand
An Act

To authorize the enforcement by State and local governments of certain Federal Communications Commission regulations regarding use of citizens band radio equipment.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. STATE AND LOCAL ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION REGULATIONS ON USE OF CITIZENS BAND RADIO EQUIPMENT.

Section 302 of the Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. 302a) is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(f)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), a State or local government may enact a statute or ordinance that prohibits a violation of the following regulations of the Commission under this section:

`(A) A regulation that prohibits a use of citizens band radio equipment not authorized by the Commission.

`(B) A regulation that prohibits the unauthorized operation of citizens band radio equipment on a frequency between 24 MHz and 35 MHz.

`(2) A station that is licensed by the Commission pursuant to section 301 in any radio service for the operation at issue shall not be subject to action by a State or local government under this subsection. A State or local government statute or ordinance enacted for purposes of this subsection shall identify the exemption available under this paragraph.

`(3) The Commission shall, to the extent practicable, provide technical guidance to State and local governments regarding the detection and determination of violations of the regulations specified in paragraph (1).

`(4)(A) In addition to any other remedy authorized by law, a person affected by the decision of a State or local government agency enforcing a statute or ordinance under paragraph (1) may submit to the Commission an appeal of the decision on the grounds that the State or local government, as the case may be, enacted a statute or ordinance outside the authority provided in this subsection.

`(B) A person shall submit an appeal on a decision of a State or local government agency to the Commission under this paragraph, if at all, not later than 30 days after the date on which the decision by the State or local government agency becomes final, but prior to seeking judicial review of such decision.

`(C) The Commission shall make a determination on an appeal submitted under subparagraph (B) not later than 180 days after its submittal.

`(D) If the Commission determines under subparagraph (C) that a State or local government agency has acted outside its authority in enforcing a statute or ordinance, the Commission shall preempt the decision enforcing the statute or ordinance.

`(5) The enforcement of statute or ordinance that prohibits a violation of a regulation by a State or local government under paragraph (1) in a particular case shall not preclude the Commission from enforcing the regulation in that case concurrently.

`(6) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to diminish or otherwise affect the jurisdiction of the Commission under this section over devices capable of interfering with radio communications.

`(7) The enforcement of a statute or ordinance by a State or local government under paragraph (1) with regard to citizens band radio equipment on board a `commercial motor vehicle', as defined in section 31101 of title 49, United States Code, shall require probable cause to find that the commercial motor vehicle or the individual operating the vehicle is in violation of the regulations described in paragraph (1).'.

Speaker of the House of Representatives.
Vice President of the United States and
President of the Senate.

[The Slab Bacon]

FWIW I usually run 100w on 75 during TV prime time and legal limit after 10:00 or so. I live in a tight close suburbam community with the houses less than 20' apart. I get NO complaints at the 100w power level, and very minimal complaints at legal limit. I can watch a portable TV with "rabbit ears" for an antenna while running the big rig.

Either you are operating on some of the "higher" bands or you have something terribly wrong with your antenna / feedline setup.
As you get up to some of the "higher bands" everything has a power cord that is near 1/4 wavelength. I also find it a bit odd that you wouldnt give your callsign when asked??

                                                   The Slab Bacon

[Jim, W5JO]

If you are a member of the ARRL, here is where paying those dues come in handy.  Contact the ARRL Headquarters and explain what is going on and ask if they can help.  They have a cadre of volunteer lawyers that will step into the fray and along with headquarters sort this thing out in court if necessary.  Many of the lawyers are local and you may have one in your town or in short driving distance.

This is assuming they take you on.  If you are not a member, then things might be different.  Find a member and have them submit for you.  This is the cheapest way to shove that police officer's head up a little bitty hole.

[W1EUJ]

>Either you are operating on some of the "higher" bands  or you have something terribly wrong with your
>antenna / feedline setup. As you get up to some of the "higher bands" everything has a power cord that is
>near 1/4 wavelength. I also find it a bit odd that you wouldnt give your callsign when asked??

It could be his experience. His listed email is the same as a fellow by the name of Clark Turner. A QRZ search didn't turn up any matching licences to that name. His email address comes up frequenty in the 1998-1999 period in rec.radio.cb, under the moniker "MC TURNER".

Now, it is possible that his licence is listed under a different name (such as when one uses your middle name unofficially, but your first officially), and he has become a ham since the early 2000's...but given nearly all hams who are members of this board use their callsigns SOMEWHERE in their posts, it is likely that this fellow is a CBer who is running the Globe in the upper HF frequencies.

Dave Goncalves
W1EUJ

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Higher grid drive and lower PA loading or low grid drive and higher PA loading.

You are not limted to just these two options. You can also run lower grid drive and ligher PA loading (less current at resonance dip). And this option would likely be the best from an RFI.

Lightly loading the Valiant will not hurt the 6146s and I see no reason why you cannot pull out one of the 6146s. They are in paralle and there are tons of rigs that run 100 watts out with two 6146s in the final.

That said, go with Frank's advice, load the thing up for about 100 watts out and have fun. The extra 50 watts or so you get when loading up full bore won't ever be missed on most people S-meters. And your Valiant and the neighbor will be happier.

Good luck.

[ab3al]

On another note,  I had about the same issue with the local county mounty.  I got his badge number and name and oh by the way i have video survailance via 6 networked cameras around my property and one just happens to be in the porch light with a mic.. I made a dvd of the incident with color and sound and sent it to internal affairs.  In an effort to keep me from being able to buy a new masion @ the taxpayers expense.. they fired his but

he needs probable cause to enter your premesis. If he did enter against your wishes and confiscate the equipment Its called breaking and entering.

[Globeking]

Steve:  THanks for the advice. The only reason I pulled the one tube is that they are in parallel. I figured because of this, the radio would not mind. In fact it runs very well and tunes very well. I guess a combination of lower grid and lower loading is the answer. Its been working this way for a while now.

Others.. I got my start in CB radio in the 90's. Alot of friends started that way and alot of us have recently become hams in the last couple of years. Lots more now that there is no code. THis Valiant is used on 75/80 meters with an SX100 as a Reciever. The interferance I have is mainly over Cordless Telephones. I bother one guys Sony home theatre system. Once I get up to 200 watts or higher I have issues. Thats ok and thats not a problem to me. I can run it up when nobody is home or they are asleep. I fully understand the laws and what the local police can and cant do. A local ham that has a lifetime membership to the ARRL explained this all to me. I dont wish to fight anyone. I just want to enjoy this hobby.

[W1ATR]

Wow, that was fast. I wish you guys would make me a mod so I could be an editing "sharpshooter" like that.

Thanks for keeping it clean however.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

You could also try getting a low pass output filter for your station.  They used to be quite popular back in the day of Over the Air TV, and a Johnson model will probalby be cheap bucks on Epay or hamfest. I got one for $5 at spring nearfest.

Also Check out your antenna/feedlines look for a bad connection or solder joint that could be acting as a (IIRC) contact recitfier.

I operate a Valiant I in a close urban environment, the only TV I get into is mine, it's right over the shack, and I am the LAST one in my city to be using a TV antenna. (if it's free its for me!!) Loading the finals to lower power will give you better modulation!!! So you will sound better and as others have said, no one will really notice the 50 or so watts you aren't using.

I haven't heard any complaints from the neighbors, but I also use a fairly stealthy antenna system. Wires in trees can be hard to see... so maybe if you have a 100ft tower, you are getting the slack caused by the local CB Big Maul operators... people WILL focus on a Tower as the cause of all their electronics woes.   I had a fellow notice my 20meter dipole once, and tell me that I was the one who had destroyed his cell phone...  didn't matter that I had been off the air for some time. 

Anyway good luck and Keep operating.

[The Slab Bacon]

Steve:  THanks for the advice. The only reason I pulled the one tube is that they are in parallel. I figured because of this, the radio would not mind. In fact it runs very well and tunes very well. I guess a combination of lower grid and lower loading is the answer. Its been working this way for a while now.

Others.. I got my start in CB radio in the 90's. Alot of friends started that way and alot of us have recently become hams in the last couple of years. Lots more now that there is no code. THis Valiant is used on 75/80 meters with an SX100 as a Reciever. The interferance I have is mainly over Cordless Telephones. I bother one guys Sony home theatre system. Once I get up to 200 watts or higher I have issues. Thats ok and thats not a problem to me. I can run it up when nobody is home or they are asleep. I fully understand the laws and what the local police can and cant do. A local ham that has a lifetime membership to the ARRL explained this all to me. I dont wish to fight anyone. I just want to enjoy this hobby.

OK-fine, so why wont you tell us your callsign?? You cant enjoy the hobby without one.

You seem to have something about your annonymity. I have nothing to hide, mine is KB3AHE, I say it proudly at the end of just about every transmission I make!!

                                                                                                         The Slab Bacon

[Globeking]

I am sorry you feel that way. It seems you just want to start trouble. You have done research on my Call and please dont post it Mack. ITs my right to not post it. It only matters that the owners and mods of this forum know it.  Thanks to all that have helped me. I realy do apretiate your help with this old valiant and locating a transformer for the GLobe King 500C.  It seems I am not wanted so I wont post anymore.

[Keppie]

Hey AB3AL. Since I have a Valiant that I'm getting ready to put on the air in the next month or two, this has been an interesting thread.
What I really am interested in is the AB3AL setup of networked cameras, etc.  I would be willing to start a new thread on this but would also appreciate a "shout" off line: my email is tough dot stuff dot too at gmail dot com.  Thanks es 73, Keppie W7JPG

[KA1ZGC]

You have done research on my Call and please dont post it Mack. ITs my right to not post it. It only matters that the owners and mods of this forum know it. (...)  It seems I am not wanted so I wont post anymore.

Now, hang on a second.

We're all perfectly happy to help you in any way we can without facilitating what might be an illegal operation.

No, you're not required to tell us your callsign, but if you insist on NOT telling us, we have no way of knowing that what you are doing with your transmitter is legal. That makes us all rather hesitant to provide you with much in the way of assistance. If you weren't licensed and we helped you run that transmitter, we'd be breaking the law.

As if that wasn't enough, you're also very hesitant to stand up for the protections a ham license provides you, which is every bit as suspicious as a ham who won't give his callsign.

Nobody's trying to chase you away, but you've given us a lot to be suspicious of. We're more than happy to help you, but we cannot and will not perpetrate a potentially illegal act, hence the mixed response you've received here. You haven't given us anything to indicate that what you're doing is legal.

As far as your callsign goes: that's a matter of public record. Anyone can find it in minutes, so don't expect you'll be able to keep it a secret forever. Why you want to keep it a secret is beyond me, but it's public information, so don't be surprised or upset when someone finds it. We're well within our rights to do so.

Hope this helps.

--Thom
Keep Away One Zorched Ground Conductor

[ka2zni]

You have done research on my Call and please dont post it Mack. ITs my right to not post it. It only matters that the owners and mods of this forum know it. (...)  It seems I am not wanted so I wont post anymore.

Now, hang on a second.

We're all perfectly happy to help you in any way we can without facilitating what might be an illegal operation.

No, you're not required to tell us your callsign, but if you insist on NOT telling us, we have no way of knowing that what you are doing with your transmitter is legal. That makes us all rather hesitant to provide you with much in the way of assistance. If you weren't licensed and we helped you run that transmitter, we'd be breaking the law.

As if that wasn't enough, you're also very hesitant to stand up for the protections a ham license provides you, which is every bit as suspicious as a ham who won't give his callsign.

Nobody's trying to chase you away, but you've given us a lot to be suspicious of. We're more than happy to help you, but we cannot and will not perpetrate a potentially illegal act, hence the mixed response you've received here. You haven't given us anything to indicate that what you're doing is legal.

As far as your callsign goes: that's a matter of public record. Anyone can find it in minutes, so don't expect you'll be able to keep it a secret forever. Why you want to keep it a secret is beyond me, but it's public information, so don't be surprised or upset when someone finds it. We're well within our rights to do so.

Hope this helps.

--Thom
Keep Away One Zorched Ground Conductor

You hit the nail right on the head Thom... Dead on.

Kevin