Are Hamfests and Swapfests starting to suffer from E-Pay syndrome?

[AF9J]

Hi Everybody,

As some of you know from a few posts I've made over the last couple of weeks or so, I was going to go to a hamfest this weekend, to see if I could find a receiver to go with my Heathkit Cheyenne.  My hope, was to spare myself, some of the price inflation, and shipping costs, that e-pay subjects you to. 

Well I went to the 'fest this morning, and it was a bust.  It's changed a lot since I last went to it 20 years ago (different location and smaller size).  There were only 6 receivers worth looking at.  Three of them were of the Drake R4 variety (they were all going for $220 or more), one was a Collins 75A4 that was loaded with filters (the guy wanted $1100!, talk about playing to the cult of the Collins collectors), one was a Knight R55 (pretty basic - going for about $90)., and last but not least was a Hammarlund HQ-129X (it had been recapped by the guy who was selling it, and he was firm on the asking price of $200).   I would have considered the HQ-129X, but considering its selectivity (and the fact that I only had $160 with me [I might have paid $140 for it]), passed on it.  There were 3, Johnson Viking transmitters (I think one was  Viking II) being sold there for about $100 to $150, a Gonset G-100 going for $100, and a Knight T-150, going for $125 (I wonder if it's the same one that Roger, WQ9E told me was being sold on the Midwest Collector's net a few weeks ago).   The same gentleman selling the HQ-129X (and the G-100, and one of the Vikings), also sold a Heathkit VF-1 VFO for $75.

I thought some of these prices were a little steep for the receivers (am I right, or wrong in this regard?), the transmitters I'm not so sure about.  I just wonder, if sellers are starting to ask prices that are akin to what e-bay gets.  I don't remember seeing prices in this range for older gear.  What do all of you think?  Are hamfests and swapfests losing their allure of providing low priced deals?

Oh well, I may have to settle for e-bay, and the boatancher buy & sell websites (anybody know of any good ones?) for a receiver I guess.

73,
Ellen - AF9J 

[Carl WA1KPD]

Hi Ellen,
The prices are not too far out of line and I think reflect the ability to sell on eBay but also much more interest in the gear. I remember when you could not give some of this stuff away

[W2VW]

The best way to fight this is to sell your stuff for 1/3 to 1/2 market value. Let me know.

[KF1Z]

I can't speak from years of experience...
But, in your post you state "it's been 20 years..."...

That time frame alone adds quite a bit of "antique value" to many items!

Unfortunately, for many items (not just radio related) eBay is becoming a standard for fair-market-value.

In another hobby of mine (cut gemstones, and gem rough), this has SERIOUSLY damaged the value of items...

Where it seems for radio, it has raised the value.

Good for those who have equipment to sell, but not for those looking for a deal...

Even if you're a seller at a flea.... and you decide to offer your item for the lower (bargain price)  because that's the price you'd want to see it sell for at such an event...... chances are, the person who buys it, will flip it over onto ebay, and get the higher $ for it....


Hope you find what you're looking for !

Bruce

[AF9J]

Thanks for the feed back people.    This is why I often ask for opinions.  People will oftentimes see things I miss.  Once again, many thanks.

73,
Ellen - AF9J 

[WQ9E]

Ellen,

Those prices are probably the norm now though bargains do show up.

I know where you can get a Hammarlund Super Pro 400 for $75 but it does NOT have the power supply and some/all of the knobs apparently are not original.  But they are good receivers with the variable L/C based selectivity plus a crystal filter.  The ham who has it is actually the same one that still has the Knight T-150.

73, Rodger WQ9E

[W1GFH]

The days of $75 boat anchors are gone. Unless you are part of a local AM gangsta group and can invoke "buddy pricing", you are probably going to pay the going rate. The shadow of eBay looms large over ham radio. Some old time "FB hi hi" ham might think about letting go a piece of gear he no longer uses to a newcomer for an affordable price. However for all he knows, the buyer may be an eBay "flipper". So most people attempt to get the best deal when they sell. For most non-rare receivers like the NC303 (and some xmtrs), about $250 is an average and reasonable price for something in "good" shape (no rust, dents, zorches or basket cases). In the past, I have had occasional luck posting a "wanted" to a usenet newsgroup or list.

http://listserv.tempe.gov/archives/index.html
http://www.google.com/Top/Recreation/Radio/Amateur/Boatanchors/Mailing_Lists/
...and more. Mentioning in your post that you are a relatively new AMer looking to get started can't hurt.

[k7yoo]

I was at the same hamfest and was the guy with the $1100 75A4, and a lot of Drake gear. The B line went complete (and working well) for in the mid 400 range and the 'A4 came home with me (actually a relief). I suppose if you were looking for $350 75A4's you would be disappointed. E Bay has affected hamfests in that sellers no longer get the panic to drop prices at the end of the 'fest. My personal situation is that I have been cleaning house but see no reason to make a donation to professional gleaners. Another aspect of hamfests is that most of the dealers go to buy bargains from folks that are cleaning out "uncle Harry's" attic and resell on E-bay. These dealers take a bunch of crap that they don't really care if it sells or not just so they can get in the door early and ambush the bargains. It was this way when the Yellow Sheets were king and still is true today. It isn't going to change. What is ironic is that the best buys I have made in the past 6 months were on E-bay. I generally only buy parts or repairables so I am rarely disappointed.
Skip

[WQ9E]

Ellen,

As I recall originally you were looking for small and light but the HQ-129 you were looking at is getting towards the heavier side.  If you have relaxed the weight restrictions the Hallicrafters SX-101 series often seem to show up in the $150.00 range since they are so plentiful and they do a good job on AM/CW and SSB.  The earlier units cover 160 meters while the later versions drop 160 and add a "converter" band for feeding 2/6 meters converters into.  They use a very low second IF for selectivty and have several degrees of selectivity from 500 cycles to 5 KC "on the nose".  They don't the steep filter skirts like later  receivers but they do have selectable sidebands on AM and a useful notch filter.  They are not light (Built like a battleship was the original advertising slogan) but they do work well; I must admit I am partial to them since I had one as my first real novice receiver after spending a couple of weeks using an SX-62A.  They show up on the swap nets fairly often.

73, Rodger WQ9E

[k7yoo]

Roger you are absolutely correct--The SX 101 is a great choice. I sold a very clean repairable one last year for $150. I have also sold NC 300's and 303 rx in the 150-250 range. Another good choice is a Drake 2B. These rarely break the $200 barrier.
Skip

[AF9J]

Thanks again for the info people.   Hi Skip I didn't know that was you I talked to at the 'fest.  It's been so long since I've been to the MARA hamfest (at least 20 years - I upgraded to General at that fest, back in 1986, when it was still in Madison, and I was attending the Univ. of WI).  I guess even being out of hamfest circulation since 2001 (I was basically QRT from early 2001 till late 2004), shows how much things have changed.  I'm sorry if I ticked you off Skip. My mistake, and thanks for correcting me.  I had that coming.

I thought I'd have more cash from a bonus this week at work, and unfortunately, the answer was no.  I'm going to have to do some serious rethinking on the gear equation.  I have been considering the SX-101 Roger.  I've also considered the HQ-110, like I used 12 years ago.  But from what reading I've done on it, opinions are pretty divided, between 2 extremes.  Some think it's OK, others think it's the next best thing to junk.  With spring and summer coming up, radio stuff slows way down.  Maybe I should just step back, and do some re-thinking on the receiver, and scrape together some more money.  Once again thanks for bringing me up to date on pricing everybody.  Boy, did I ever do a Rip Van Winkel.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

[KB2WIG]

E,

As far as the weight restrictions.....  please consider that   beer and pizza can be utilized for appropriating local 'muscle' , thereby allowing for larger boatanchors .... ..  klc

[AF9J]

 

Ellen - AF9J

[John K5PRO]

I've pretty much given up on finding reasonable BA's at local 'festers, although ours they are not really very large, in Albuquerque. Not like east coast 'festers. I did find an ancient and dirty Halli. SX24 receiver about 5 years ago, for a decent price (~$50) but it needed a lot of TLC so I unloaded it at a subsequent fest for a steal also. When I sell something at a hamfest, I usually ignore Ebay prices and figure that passing my treasure to another ham with a good deal is good karma, and so far, it seems to work.

The last two rigs I have gotten for AM, were both free. One is a DX100 fixer up, which was in a guys loft collecting dirt, and the other was a NC300 which a co-worker had in his garage, and never used. I spent the last two summers helping go through a SK's basement nearby, full of parts for high power amplifiers and homebrew rigs. I paid for and took home a lot of transformers, tubes and a few other goodies, most were around $5-25 each depending on the amount of iron. There was a BC610E, which I offered a reasonable sum for, but the seller (helping the widow clean out) instead went to Epay and got 50% more for it. There were two small separate AM modulator chassis, for ~100 watts of audio, that I picked up.  From this collection, I have enough parts to now build a decent AM transmitter.

About 14 years ago, I was driving down the street and saw a very nice looking tribander and a guy mowing the yard. I stopped and chatted and asked if he was a ham. Nope, his OM was, and was then in a nursing home. He asked me if I wanted to buy any of his stuff. I bought the 30 foot alum tower and Cushcraft yagi for $150, and removed them within 2 weeks.

So I guess being in the right place helps, and also asking questions of folks with old stations and relatives who have gone SK. Now if i could only find more time to play with these radios instead of just talking about it.

73

 

[W4EWH]

Thanks again for the info people.   [snip]

I've also considered the HQ-110, like I used 12 years ago.  But from what reading I've done on it, opinions are pretty divided, between 2 extremes.  Some think it's OK, others think it's the next best thing to junk.  With spring and summer coming up, radio stuff slows way down.  Maybe I should just step back, and do some re-thinking on the receiver, and scrape together some more money.  Once again thanks for bringing me up to date on pricing everybody.  Boy, did I ever do a Rip Van Winkel.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

Ellen the HQ-110 is an "OK" receiver for novice or tech work, but IIRC it's single-conversion, so it won't hold up well for serious operation later on. You might consider an HQ-170 or HQ-180, both of which will hold their own with modern rigs.

I'll second the recommendation on the Drake 2B (or 2C): pound for pound, the most undervalued receivers on the market. Triple conversion, excellent selectivity and even passband tuning.

Various brands vary in value over time: Gonset is undervalued right now, as are many Heathkit rigs like the HW-101 transceiver. You might consider an older generation of popular equipment: Drake R-3/T3XB, for example, instead of the "4 Line" units that still fetch high prices.

It's a good idea to wait: the old advice about Hosstraders was that you should sell in the Spring and buy in the Fall, so it will benefit you to wait for the end of summer. Even Epay offers good prices during the winter doldrums, more-or-less around January and February, and there are always local deals to be had from estate sales or CB'ers who've been running old ham gear.

Long story short: you'll almost never regret shopping around, even if it means waiting a few months.

HTH.

Bill W1AC

[W3SLK]

If you are indeed looking for a BA at cut rate price, there is a way to do it but it takes a lot of patience and foot work. Check out local yard sales and auctions. Not all the time but every once in a while, you will see items like this show up and can be had for unbelievable prices. For instance, I got a NC-303 for $5 at a yard sale! Also I found a beautiful Heathkit 6V6 monoblock amplifier with matching speaker that had been left out with the trash, (No one bought it or wasn't wanted with lot purchased), where an auction had taken place the day before. Be prepared for disappointments but with diligence, you can find that 'gold nugget'. YMMV

[W9GT]

Hi Ellen,

Well you have observed a phenomenon that many of us have been noticing over the past few years.  The E bay syndrome and a few other factors have taken their toll on hamfests.  As Skip mentioned, on many occasions the "pickers" and dealers tend to show up early at hamfests and glean many of the good deals before the gates open.  Unfortunately, many of the bargains disappear early and become fodder for entreprenurial resale efforts.  I guess you can't fault them for wanting to make a buck, but it sure limits the opportunities for finding what you need at hamfests for decent prices.

We have noticed that the attendance at hamfests has been down considerably, perhaps for several reasons in addition to the Ebay factor.  Gas prices, an aging ham population, and less ham gear and more computer junk showing-up at 'fests have all taken their toll.  Unfortunately, we have seen several of the smaller hamfests disappear as a result.

A couple of suggestions....that might not have been mentioned previously.....There are several "swap nets" on the air including the Midwest Classic Radio Net on 3885 on Saturday mornings at 12:30 Z and the DX-60 Net on 3880 on Sunday mornings at 12:00 Z.  Also there is a weekly net on 3885 hosted by the SE AMI club.  Many times gear shows up for good prices on these nets and AMers are very anxious to help out fellow AM aficionados and newbies.  Another possibility that you may wish to explore are several AM get-togethers that are held each year.  These are kinda like mini-hamfests and a fair amount of gear shows up for sale or trade, often at very reasonable prices.  Gary, KI8BQ hosts a gathering at his place in Sturgis, MI every summer.

Best of luck to you Ellen.  I hope we hear you on the air soon.  That little Cheyenne is a nice transmitter, and coupled with a small amplifier can really be made to sound great.

73,  Jack, W9GT

[WA3VJB]

Ellen,

There today are two markets you can shop among.

There's a category called "privately held" for many high-quality examples of a given model of vintage gear.

Many others are peddled by "flippers" motivated more by commerce than from enjoyment of the rig.

At first I thought ebay was bad thing because it drove up prices. But then I realized it actually shed light on the rising value of vintage gear. Higher prices are linked to the popularity of AM, which has jumped dramatically in the 20 years since you last hit the fester circuit.

Ebay and internet correspondence in all its forms have made it much harder for radio rug merchants to slicker someone out of vintage gear and then turn it for great profit.

So, the number of loose rigs available for open sale has dropped dramatically, and prices are up for the smaller group of commerce-based transactions.

What you can do is instead approach someone within the family to inquire privately whether they might have a radio of interest they could sell you. The understanding, expressed or implied, is that you're not planning to flip it for profit. By their knowing you, their expectation is that you will put their rig on the air and enjoy it, which is simply a way to perpetuate how it's been among hams for many, many years prior to these other sales environments.

[W1RC]

eBay is a double-edged sword.  I realized this almost ten years ago when I saw items going for ridiculously high prices.  I got rid of a lot of stuff back in those early days, not all necessarily radio related.  Unsold items were very uncommon.  The buyers have become more sophisticated and now lots of things don't sell.

Since that time things have calmed downed a lot and become more complex due to the scams and bureaucracy eBay has imposed on sellers.

However just about all hobby and collectable flea markets and shows have suffered because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a world-wide market will yield a higher sale price.  The main limiting factor is packing and shipping.

Additionally there are still some who are not online or do not do eBay.  Older hams cleaning out the cellar are more likely to haul their stuff to a local or regional hamfest like Deerfield (shameless plug) than try to wrestle with PayPal and packing a heavy rig.  To be sure there are agencies who sell stuff on-line for a fee but these are not really geared for this kind of equipment.

So, keep going to hamfesters and you will probably still find goodies.

73,

MrMike, W1RC

[AF9J]

Hi Pual, Bill and Mike,

Thanks for the info     Boy I tell you, this is a great group!  I've belonged to other groups (and am also the moderator in another ham group), and the level of info and assiustance I've gotten from AMers puts those other groups to shame! 

Bill, one of the best setups I've ever had (and I regret getting rid of it to this day), is the T4XC & R4B combo I had from 1987, until 1993 (when I got my Advanced, and decided to shrink down the size of my station - big mistake).  I was intrigued by Skip's R4B, and and a straight R4 I saw at the fest.  I just didn't have the cash for them.  Could you or somebody else answer these questions?:

1.  From what I remember of the Drake R series (and looking at 3 R4s, confirmed this at the hamfest), they only had a maximum receive bandwidth of about 4.5 kHz.  Don't you need at least 6 kHz receive bandwidth for even OK audio (which is one of the reasons why my Swan 270B may transmit OK AM, but it has lousy AM receive audio - it's receiver bandwidth is only 2.7 kHz)?

2.  T3 & R3 - did Drake even make a 3 series of its Twins?  I've only heard of the TR-3.  If the answer is yes - that sounds intriguing to me, and I might consider looking for an R-3.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

[WQ9E]

Hi Ellen,

The maximum 6 db down bandwidth on the R-4 thru R-4B is rated at 4.8 Kcs but the drake receivers are designed to be selectable sideband on all modes so in theory the fidelity would be higher on an R-4B in its maximum bandwidth position than a 6 Kcs bandwidth "conventional" AM receiver.  The R-4C went from using an L/C filter in the final IF to crystal filters in the 5645 Kcs IF and it may or may not have an AM filter in it, however it is usable on AM in any case.  However, the price on this generally the highest since it is the last of the R-4 series.  I did see one go for only $300 at a fest today and it was the late production model with 5 selectivity positions and it came with all filters including AM, the noise blanker, and was loaded with extra range crystals.  I have all of the various 4 line receivers and the R-4B is my favorite of the bunch.

The TR3/4 series are transceivers and there is no receiver especially designed for them.  They are set up to use with an external receiver (which does not provide any frequency control for the TR3/4) and Drake provided instructions in various manuals how to hook up receivers like their 2B and SPR-4.  It seems that a fair number of people have reported problems with the sideband filters in the early Drake TR series; I have not come across anyone reporting problems with the T-4X series sideband filters.  I think you would be much happier with the 4 line twins!

P.S. some of the smaller fests probably have better prices now as they don't attract as many "flippers".  Today I picked up an FRG-7 receiver and an FL-2100B amplifier to complete my Yaesu FR/FL-101 staton; total for receiver and amp was $275 and they were in nice shape, also picked up several D-104 microphones cheaply.

73, Rodger WQ9E

[k4kyv]

The only way to find any remaining "bargains" at a hamfest is to arrive very early, just as they open the gates.  Better still, if you  can, get into the flea market area before they open the gate, while the vendors are still setting up.  The idea is to have first grabs on the items, since any bargain priced "vintage" equipment or parts will likely be scooped up immediately.

Many "vendors" at Dayton purchase a flea market space just for this purpose, and to have an expensive but convenient parking spot to make it quick and easy to haul their purchases to the vehicle.  Notice in recent years the number of unattended vehicles in the vendors' spots?  In the past, when there was higher attendance and a shortage of spaces available, the hamfest committee attempted to clamp down on this by threatening to kick out unattended vehicles, but with all the un-sold vacant spaces I have seen the last few years I attended, I doubt that they will go after too many, since an unattended vehicle looks better from their point of view than an empty space.  One way to dodge the "presence" requirement is to bring some useless junk that you would not care even if it got ripped off, set up a table and place said junk on it, and just conveniently not be there to man your post most of the day - and if you do manage to pick up a few bucks for some of the useless junk, better still.

I used to go to Dayton and come back with the car loaded and almost dragging the ground.  The last few times I have gone, one large mall-type shopping bag would have held everything I picked up.  The stuff I seek out - mostly, vintage transmitter components, tubes, books and pre-WW2 magazines, seems to be getting more scarce every year.  At the same time, I am becoming much more picky about what I spend money for and lug home to limited storage space, since I now already have multiple copies of most of what I see on sale.  I go prepared to pay a premium price for anything I do happen to see that I couldn't live without.

So, large hamfests in distant cities are becoming less and less cost-effective as a means for collecting "stuff".  I often find much more of what I want at far lower prices in the "tailgating" area at small local outdoor events.

Looks like I'll miss Dayton again this year, because of the same work conflict that has kept me away the past two years.  Three years ago it was my daughter's high school graduation that was in conflict.

[W4EWH]

Hi Paul, Bill and Mike,

Thanks for the info     Boy I tell you, this is a great group!  I've belonged to other groups (and am also the moderator in another ham group), and the level of info and assistance I've gotten from AMers puts those other groups to shame! 

Bill, one of the best setups I've ever had (and I regret getting rid of it to this day), is the T4XC & R4B combo I had from 1987, until 1993 (when I got my Advanced, and decided to shrink down the size of my station - big mistake).  I was intrigued by Skip's R4B, and and a straight R4 I saw at the fest.  I just didn't have the cash for them.  Could you or somebody else answer these questions?:

1.  From what I remember of the Drake R series (and looking at 3 R4s, confirmed this at the hamfest), they only had a maximum receive bandwidth of about 4.5 kHz.  Don't you need at least 6 kHz receive bandwidth for even OK audio (which is one of the reasons why my Swan 270B may transmit OK AM, but it has lousy AM receive audio - it's receiver bandwidth is only 2.7 kHz)?

2.  T3 & R3 - did Drake even make a 3 series of its Twins?  I've only heard of the TR-3.  If the answer is yes - that sounds intriguing to me, and I might consider looking for an R-3.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

Ellen,

Sorry: that'll teach me to check my assumptions. According to http://www.dproducts.be/DRAKE_MUSEUM/drake4.htm, there wasn't any R3¹. AFAIK, the R-4 series has a filter position for the "AM" mode, but others know more about Drake and I'll defer to them. Worst case: you'll have to put in a relay to substitute an aftermarket filter in AM mode.

However, the point still applies: while most buyers want the last model of any given series, the previous ones are still serviceable and (in some cases) may even be better performers for your use. The R-4C is a fine radio, but the R-4 will also deliver good service. The Hammarlund HQ-180A is an excellent general coverage receiver, still much in demand - but the HQ-180 does the same job, and can be had for a lot less, just because there's no "USB" vs. "LSB" position to save the operator the trouble of moving the bfo dial².

The Amateur Radio marketplace is like any other: technical merit often had little to do with sales success. Excellent radios with good features and performance are out there waiting to be found. Think of it like a job search: tell all your friends that you're looking to buy an old radio, and one of them will probably remember a receiver in their attic. Ask others in your club if they have anything they'll part with, and you might find yourself with a "permanent loan" of a great rig that's now gathering dust.

The main thing to remember is this immortal message from Peter Lynch, guru of Fidelity Investments: "Whoever turns over the most rocks wins the game". If you're committed to getting a good AM station going instead of collecting a particular manufacturer, you can shop the "off market" brands that aren't in favor on Epay or by collectors, and have your station for less than half what another ham will pay to have "fashionable" gear.

HTH. YMMV.

Bill W1AC

1. Which reminds me of the old question about what happened to 1 through 6-UP, or Preparations A through G. 
2. There are other internal differences between the HQ-180 and HQ-180A, but the fact that I had to do fifteen minutes of Googling to find out what they are makes the point for me. I don't know if the HQ-180 has a wide enough bandpass for AM, so check that out if you're looking at one.

[AF9J]

Thanks Bill, 

BTW, what are some off-brands worth looking into?  I've used Drakes.  I had an HQ-110 years ago.  Other than a couple of Ten-Tecs, my Swan 270B, and an SGC-2020,  all of my other rigs have been Yaekencom.

Ellen - AF9J

[W4EWH]

Thanks Bill, 

BTW, what are some off-brands worth looking into?  I've used Drakes.  I had an HQ-110 years ago.  Other than a couple of Ten-Tecs, my Swan 270B, and an SGC-2020,  all of my other rigs have been Yaekencom.

Ellen - AF9J

Ellen,

I'd look into "everything but what's popular": most of the demand you're seeing for Drake &c now is just bent-up nostalgia from old farts like me that wanted it when we were kids and now have a few bucks the wife doesn't know about to spend.

Check, for example, early versions of Yaesu such as the FT-101, which do AM well. As I said before, the Drake 2-B is very undervalued, as are some versions of Hammarlund that weren't in favor for amateur use.

The best advise I can give you is the get to know the market, research potential buys thoroughly, and (above all) evaluate rigs based on their performance and not their brand.  Here's some general advice, in no particular order:

• Always test any rig before purchase! If you're at a hamfest and can't do that, haggle for a guarantee or return privilege: if nothing else, you'll get a better picture of the rig and what might be wrong with it.
• Homebrew equipment can sometimes be an extraordinary value, especially in the case of linear amplifiers.
• Remember that you can get "parts" rigs for a fraction of the their "working" cost, so if you're willing to dig in and have the test equipment, you can save a bundle there as well.
• Rely on your club members! They can test rigs for you, vouch for the reputation of a seller, and give you tips on good sales.

HTH.

73, Bill