Slopbuckets invading the Ghetto

[k4kyv]

Did the same thing about 15 years ago at work. A 5 MHz bandwidth was pushing it. But what really sucked was the dynamic range - maybe 30 dB on a good day. Wideband analog recorders generally suck.

But during a typical slopbucket war you are not digging for rare weak signal DX.

[KA1ZGC]

Steve: Not looking for fidelity per se, just a running snapshot of what's happening on the band. It would be one way of going back in time to see what was going on elsewhere on the band prior to a given event. 5 meg is probably pushing it at the normal head speed, but if you're no longer recording an NTSC baseband product, these rates become much more flexible. There's wiggle room there. Besides, for the average HF band, 500 kc is all you really need (if you even need that much).

Don: Not really. DVDs don't record the modulation product, they specifically record digital video information. VCRs are a garbage-in-garbage-out medium. They simply demodulate the AM envelope of an incoming NTSC signal, strip and separate the the audio subcarrier, and print the result to tape, one diagonal swath per scan line of video. Tracking pulses are printed on a linear track at the bottom of the tape, and space is left at the top of the tape for one or two linear audio tracks (which almost nobody uses anymore, most audio is encoded in an (19 kHz?) FM envelope staggered between the video tracks, which is the "Hi-fi" extension).

Phil: Keep those constructive comments coming.

I just stuck my head in the closet where all my old projects now live. If the unit's still in there, it would proabably take me longer to find it than to just make another one. I forgot how much of this crap I still have laying around!

Maybe I can still find the drawings, but it's a pretty straightforward mod. Just used an SBL-1 (or maybe it was an SRA-1) for the mixer, old-buzzard frequency meter for the LO, fed the result to the composite video inpoot, and I forget what I did for the tracking pulses. I may have used something internal, I forget. This is all 10-15 years ago now.

Like Steve said: it doesn't work great, but it does work.

In this day-and-age, a digital approach would probably work better, but a tape printed in this way is almost impossible to fake, unlike digital recordings. That's helpful when it comes time to present evidence of wilfull and malicious misconduct.

Besides, what else are you going to do with that VCR besides pay for the permission to throw it out? You should get extra carbon credits for being such a Good AMerican!

--Thom
Kilimanjaro Africa One Zulu Goat Cheese

[K1MVP]

September 19, 1958: 11 meters is reassigned to CB.

February 23, 2007: 75 meters is reassigned to CB.

Truer words were never spoken, but we also have 2 meter CB to go along with 75 meter CB.

                                          K1MVP   

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

I understand the requirement Tom and Don. The dynamic range has nothing to do with weak signals. If one slopbucket is 50 over 9 and another is 20 over, you've exceed the DR of the system. Neither of those would be considered weak signals. That said, being able to record the entire band is kinda cool.

Since the problems occur on one frequency (generally), a narrowband audio recorder will do the job. Audio into the VCR audio channel is a nice cheap way to get up to six hours of recording time.

But none of this matters since the world is coming to an end.

Carry on.

[kf4qkr]

Like it or not AMers are in a turf war with the slopbuckets.Some from the existing groups 3892,3878,3875,and last but not least 3872.Some from groups that just move in from another group that got to crowded  and sit right on 3885 and start a QSO.Well we all know what would happen if AMers would do the same thing on their frequency even if it werent occupied at the time.There would be all this bitching and moaning on how they had been on this frequency for the last 20 years and you were an invader and you should go back to where you belong (refering to the AM window which they interpret as 3885 only) .The next time a slopbucket  group sets up shop on a deserted 3885 I need to tell them to move on ;AMers have been on this frequency for 65 years.( correct me if I am off a few years).   Any way getting to the point of all this rambling.The point is the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence.We should take that stick and draw a line in the sand and protect the ghetto (just like the slopbuckets protect their precious frequencies) with our continued presents,or we will lose this turf war.

[K6JEK]

How well do automatic notch filters work on old poorly designed AM transmitters that FM a little bit?

[W1GFH]

Yeah, the "Wobulator". I think we tried that once on 3870. No effect. There was a dead-air SSB group that hung out there a few years back. You could monitor all night and only hear a word or two from them every 30 mins. or so. They used the frequency like an intercom, probably keep their rigs tuned there all the time, so if they hear something, they start up.

[N3DRB The Derb]

same as it ever was, same as it ever was.....

[AB1GX]

The dumb landers are also trying their best on 160 but the class e rig
takes them right out without breaking a sweat..
I can always run a coax over to the HP3325 and go into SBE mode if they get me going. Lotta big rigs on so they only bother the PW sigs a bit.

I've been looking for phase-lock-loop drift-frequency-oscillators for 75 meters.  Know of any skizmatics?

Thanks, Tom

[WD8BIL]

The only way to beat'em is to strap'em.

As Frank AHE says...... don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

[KB2WIG]

                         PSO  programable stepping oscilator?     

 I GUESS that  ssb rcvrs that have a 'tracking' notch filter follow the offending carrier as it drifts/moves.....  A vfo that steps, say 100Hz, every 1s, may be of interest.  I dont think(know) that the rcvr can track this. The unit randomly steps accross a band of, say 600 Hz; would be well inside of the AMers passband. And there is no FMmm as the sig is not modulated ( not  that it matrs ).

La frecuencia ducha con multiple carriers steppin out would be glorious.....

[k4kyv]

Back in the 60's W4EBG and myself each equipped our stations with a "wobbulator".  Mine consisted of a small (approx 5 pf) butterfly capacitor coupled to a 3 or 4 rpm motor, and connected across the VFO coil.  Con's used a small metal paddle connected to the shaft of about a 100 rpm motor, that swept by the VFO tube.  Mine shifted the frequency over a range of about 1 kHz, enough to make it impossible for the slopbuckets to ride the carrier, but not enough to move the signal out of the passband of a typical AM receiver.

We both got citations from the FCC for "simultaneous amplitude and frequency modulation".  I responded that the "frequency modulation" was not simultaneous because the AM was voice modulation while the FM appeared as a slow drift about every 15 seconds, and that many AM signals on the air at the time drifted and wobbled more than mine (the Knight T-150, for example), many in step with the voice modulation as the modulator current caused the voltage to the VFO to sag.

Ben Waple of the FCC responded that yes, the intent of the rule was to prohibit voice modulated FM of an AM transmitter, usually resulting from too little isolation between the oscillator and the modulated stage (the SBE effect, such as from a modulated oscillator or a stock BC-375 transmitter), but that the FCC was interpreting that the rule was not "so limited", and that they interpreted the rules as not to allow one to deliberately adjust their transmitter to conform to the "worst example" of typical on-the-air signals.

But in today's Part 97 that rule has been deleted, along with the prohibition of modulation "beyond 100%".  There used to be a specific section that made it illegal to run a modulated oscillator.  That one has also been deleted. Those changes were the result  of Docket 20777, even though the proposed "subband by bandwidth" proposal similar to the recent ARRL petition was not adopted.

But I think the idea of shifting frequency at random intervals in random steps might be more effective against automatic notch filters.  Has anyone had any experience with how much time it takes for those things to seek out a nearby carrier and lock onto it? 

This should be easy to set up with a DDS VFO.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Lately, I have been working inside the Ghetto a little more frequently. With the arrival of static season, and the overall lack of AM activity below 3750 and rarity of responses to my CQ's, I have retuned up higher a little more often.

Sorry Don, my mod iron is toast or I'd have been down there below 3750 also. Seems very few have to ability or desire to escape the crap from above, or prefer pissing and moaning. Other than the guys north of the border, how many folks did you hear with regularity below 3800? 5? 6? Seems like the 'small space so many have to share' gets reduced even further, by choice these days.

The 'not-quite-zero-beat' works best with break-in, as long buzzardly transmissions give the troublemakers ample opportunity to re-zero and place their signal under yours. With several stations on the frequency, some a little high, some a little low, it makes it a lot less attractive to the troublemakers. Particularly if no one gives them the satisfaction of a response.

The fact that there are idiots throughout the bands doesn't mean everyone has to scurry back up to one sliver of spectrum, though. Multiple groups around the band are much harder to target than a couple of huge groups stuck on the same 2 frequencies night after night. 

It must make too much sense? 

The only way to beat'em is to strap'em.

As Frank AHE says...... don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

You got it, Buddly! But there's nothing wrong with bringing a knife to a gunfight, so long as you have a big gun to whip out when the time comes.

Running low power on 75 at night makes about as much sense as taking a whiz on an electric fence: you can do it, but it won't be much fun.

[WA1HZK]

Up here in the frozen tundra of southern NH we decided many years ago that we would not be blown off the band and we will not be bullied. If just one of those morons would ask I would gladly move if they actually have a net scheduled but they do not. The frequency can be dead quiet and if you fire up on AM and ask if the frequency is in use they will jump on it and insult you for taking the breath and asking. This is like arguing with liberals. Might as well talk to the wall. There is only one cure QRO, QRO, QRO!!!! It's time for you to build that big rig you always wanted. If your afraid of radios that can kill you just go over to the Class-E site and build one of those simple transmitters. You Can Do It. Operate 75 at night with 50 watts? Wasting your time and ours. Go For It, PLEASE! It's For the Children.....

[W5AMI]

I hate how the slopbucketeers from Texarkana ruin the first hour of the W. Coast AMI net on 3870 by zero beating the AM stations and talking right through them. One must listen to AM transmission with a buzz-saw SSB commentary superimposed on it:

"Running a DX-100 here, using a D104...sheeit gunna git me onea them new Yaseu at AES...The antenna is a dipole up about 50 feet....whars Dickie tanite? I ain' hear him inna long spell....Receiver is an R390A....dayumn if I ain' got some SWR on this Henry 3K....."


(The Texarkana slopbuckets appear to go QRT around 10PM CST, so as a result, AMers in PST have gotten into the habit of waiting around until these jokers sign off.)

After much contemplation, I must say I resent your comments and the attempt to exaggerate the way we sound down here in "Moron Land" as so many have put it.  I am an AM'er, and have been for quite some time, and there are a LOT of other AM'ers in the so called "moron land".  I happen to be very cognizant of the way "we" sound to you folks in the North, but no one should mimick anyone for an accent just because there are some bad apples in that particular area.

And, by using the term "Texarkana slopbuckets", it's obvious where the "moron landers" are to you and others in this thread.

Someone brought this issue up just a week or so ago on the AMRadio email list, and now I'm starting to see why he did.

So, tell me, what and where exactly is "moron land"?  This sort of crap needs to stop man!  We should try to pull together as fellow AM'ers, not make blanket fun of accents and the like of people in other parts of the country.

Have a GREAT day!

Brian / w5ami

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

And, by using the term "Texarkana slopbuckets", it's obvious where the "moron landers" are to you and others in this thread.

As a participant both in this thread and the episode two weeks ago on the reflector, I can assure you that I don't see it that way, Brian. I doubt many (if any) here do. I suspect Joe intended his remarks towards the offending SSBers and not AMers or thoughtful people in general but, as with any blanket statement referring to geography, heritage, ethnicity or any number of factors, it happens. I'm sure that at some point I've been guilty of this myself, it's easy to disregard the potential impact until after the words are said and you realize you could have used better words, left something out, not attempted to translate your version of a redneck/hillbilly SSBer's words. 'Stupid' is everywhere, not just in certain states.

I know you're not one to be thin-skinned, Brian. You're pretty patient and easy-going from all I've seen and heard of you. So to get to this point, it's obviously been building up and wearing on you over time. I get a similar feeling when I tell folks I'm from Vermont and they roll their eyes because of all the socialist stupidity going on here now, letting child molesters go free and the rest. It's hard to make them understand immediately that you're not 'one of them', and considering the crap that now goes on in this once-very traditional state, I can relate to their frustration at us.

So before we implode and only do harm to the AM community, I hope everyone will be more cognizant of how they state things so as not to include friends in the mix. I also hope you'll see Joe's frustration and intent in his post. I'm the furthest thing from being 'politically correct' you'll probably find, but I do believe we can do a bit better.

[The Slab Bacon]

At the risk of restarting the civil war, Here is my $.02 worth.

Brian, I totally agree with you, that we as fellow AMers should unite and stick together. Infighting amongst ourselves will definately weaken our stand against "them". "Them" being the ssb operators that would just as soon push us off into the ocean. But..............

Keep in mind that I live in Baltimore, that puts me (at least for listening purposes) somewhere close to the middle for listening propagation. And I spend a lot more time listening than transmitting.
With the exception of the Macaroni net goofballs, most of the nasty ill manered, ill natured ssb operators that have qwermed my QSOs have had similar accents to the ones mentioned. This may only be a coincidence??

I have also enjoyed listening to (and joining in when they could hear me) the Southeastern AM club's nets on 3885. They act like a fine bunch of gentlemen. But they dont seem to take anywhere as much heat from the ssb operators as we do further up north. Hmmmm...............?? Is this just coincidental?? I have often wondered.

I have spent a lot of time also listening to the idiots that have jammed or qwermed us, and some of the "dead air nets" as a general rule (if they use any calls at all) they will usually have 4, 5, or 8 calls. And all they seem to talk about is their rice boxes and how big their amplifiers are. (is this just an extension of their manhood?) I have no problem with the "accent" as long an others dont have a problem with mine (or lack thereof).

We are supposed to be one country The UNITED States of America. With the largest common bond of all being the use of 1 common language. So why as we as fellow AMers unite and stop fighting amongst ourselves?? The love of AM and real radio should be the common bond that keeps us together. I often wonder why this cant apply to hams in general.

                                             The Slab Bacon

[W1GFH]

Brian, I regret that you took my re-creation of SSB QRMers dialogue as a slur against Southerners, Texans, or any other regional-accented person, and I apologize if this is how it came across. We have had specific problems with SSB ops from that region, which is why it has been mentioned by me. It is not their accent, but their style of operating that is the problem. The dead-air SSB groups populate all available spectrum between 3860 and 3895 here in So Cal. AMers are not able to operate in our "AM Window" until late at night when the SSB groups have gone to bed.  It is to the point where a lot of AMers (including me) just don't bother getting on the air anymore. Slab, you are correct that we should be sticking together rather than dividing against each other. I just wish there were a little more respect for AMers right to have a calling frequency.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Just remember what Benjamin Disraeli said in his famous quotes:

"Action may not always bring happiness; but there is no happiness without action."
and
"Despair is the conclusion of fools."

[The Slab Bacon]

This reminds me of a cute story from many years ago:

Myself and a friend were chit-chatting locally on 10m ssb one night, when unbeknownst to us the band opened w-i-d-e. The next thing we knew we were getting harassed by a group that told us to "get out of here with those 3 calls". We fell right into a let from La. that was having another local net. The one that harassed us the worst had one of those "accents" and sounded like he was a bit intoxicated. After mich pissing and moaning I was able to reassure him that just because he was from the south and I was from the north didnt mean that his neck was any redder than mine, and that I could drink just as much beer and kick just as much ass as he could. (which was no problem in my younger days)

After making our points clear they let us into "their net" and we got passed around like a $2 hooker at an office party. We all had a geally great time!! As the net was closing down way into the wee hours of the morning, they all wished us a best 73 and invited us to come back "with our 3 calls" any time that we were able to hear them. A really good time was had by all!! It was a great night of radio for all of us!!

I'll have to look at my log (I used to keep one back then) and see if i can find their calls.  
      
                                            The Slab Bacon

[k4kyv]

Brian,

I don't think he was making  fun of the way most of us sound down here, but the way some of the slopbucket groups sound with their exaggerated accents and "I take pride in my ignorance" attitude, once were so notorious on CB, that has now spilt over into ham radio.  I have never listened to the Texarkana group, but the "buzz-saw SSB commentary" sounds precisely like what I hear on 3878 kHz.

I would hope that most hams from 4 and 5 land don't sound quite so ignorant to the rest of the world as do the Wally and Richard crowd.

Do we all sound like this?

[Ed-VA3ES]

Do we all sound like this? 

Actually Don, to us Canadians, you sound like a right Southern Gentleman! 

[w3jn]

Just remember what Benjamin Disraeli said in his famous quotes:

"Action may not always bring happiness; but there is no happiness without action."
and
"Despair is the conclusion of fools."

Further, a quote from the immortal Emil Faber, founder of Faber College:

Knowledge is good.

[WQ9E]

There are some strong "southern style" accents found far north of the Mason Dixon.  I grew up on the MS gulf coast and I used to be pretty good at distinguishing between a lot of the regional accents in the MS, AL, GA, TN, NC region but there is also a generic "hick" accent that is often associated with the south but it seems to be non-region specific.  I recall in particular I was spending some time in the Smokies (Cosby, TN area) a few years ago and felt some bizarre urge to actually visit Gatlinburg (everybody has a stupid thought now and then).  I took advantage of the park and ride tram and found myself on the same tram as an "extended" family of about 20 people with the strongest accents I have ever heard.  I assumed they must be from deep in Appalachia based upon the sound.  The fact that they were all very upset and blaming each other over their shortage of liquor and the difficulty of obtaining more on Sunday further reinforced my stereotyping.  But then they began discussing how they would have plenty of whiskey when they returned back home to Urbana/Champaign.  As far as I know there is only one Urbana/Champaign and it is the home of the University of Illinois and is about 45 miles from my QTH in central IL.   

I do find it "interesting" that rural southern whites are the last minority group for which it is politically correct or acceptable to belittle.  My vote for nicest sounding accent is that found in the sawgrass region of GA with some of the NC accents running a very close second.

Rodger WQ9E

[W2INR]

I do not know how we got here but I need to address some issues that have been festering over the last few weeks so bear with me, I need to be clear on a few things and this thread seems to be the lucky one.

This was a thread about SSB gaining in the Ghetto ( you know,the so called AM window that does not exist but we insist on fighting about it anyway because some won't move) and we ended up in moron land (where ever the hell that is but apparently they have accents, that certainly narrows it down).

QTF??

I think it is unfair to assume that when you get 1585 diverse people from around the world together on one forum that everyone is going to feel warm and fuzzy. I am sure there will be misunderstandings and argumentative stances. Why shouldn't there be? This community is no different than any other but we are HAMS. We are supposed to be good COMMUNICATORS (a term the seems to be lacking from time to time ).

This is a site on the internet. It has no regions, accents, call districts, it is global ( I have to admit we might have morons ). It is visited weekly by over 40 countries. It is World Wide, just like our hobby - - Radio.

Radio has no boundaries. The only boundaries it has are those set up by some regulatory group that needs to generate money so it can exist. But radio remains world wide with no boundaries.

This site has no boundaries except those each user decides to invoke.

There has been a lot of public whining on the AM boards as of late and I really don't know why. What I do know is public infighting is NOT in anyone's best interest wherever it comes from and it is certainly not in our best interests.

This site gains around 60 posts per day. It would be impossible for the moderators to read every word of every post. We depend on each user to help us with the moderation of this site. If you see something that you feel may not be in our best interest hit the link in the lower right hand of the post labeled "Report to Moderator" .

If we don't know about a problem, we can't help to resolve it. Communicate!


In closing,

If I offended anyone with my post it wasn't intentional.
If I seemed to refer to any region  -- I didn't mean too
If I wrote with an accent - -  sorry, I have one
If your post was not answered - - Mine don't get answered either.
If I appear to be taking this lightly -- I am not
If I seem frustrated, short, embarrassed and fed up with all this petty ass crap -- I SURE AM.

G

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming - - - - -