Gasoline Madness;When to Stop

[ka3zlr]

ELF and other similar terrorists might come after you.

A point I have frequently made, (and as this video clearly shows) the hard core environuts are really anti-capitalist marxists. They love the "useful idiots" who fall in line & follow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjVOfs21tsA&feature=related

I don't Quote often, Did you see the part where those folks signed that petition...Oh my god are we in trouble here...."It's in everything Lakes an Reservoirs "


Oh man those children did not know the terminology for water...boy are we in trouble....that's Not funny either...that's sad...really.

[W3RSW]

"Are you guys finished now?"

Oh We've just begun...
 
or was it,
 
"It's not the beginning of the end, it's the end of the beginning"
apologies to W. Churchill.

[k4kyv]

A point I have frequently made, (and as this video clearly shows) the hard core environuts are really anti-capitalist marxists. They love the "useful idiots" who fall in line & follow.

The real nuts are the people who find a political bogeyman hidden behind every tree (or smokestack).  Marxism is dead. If you don't believe me, just ask the Chinese.  Learn to live with it. Even if some are scientifically misguided, the vast majority of the people involved in environmental issues are there because they believe in the cause, not because of some sinister hidden political agenda.

Yes, there is an environmental lunatic fringe, just as we have seen (and fought with) for over four decades, a bandwidth lunatic fringe in amateur radio.  But that doesn't mean that conservation doesn't make sense.  It is a lot smarter to cut down on unnecessary consumption than to keep on full speed ahead  producing more and more just so we can keep on wasting and wasting.

That story about the H2O is hilarious, but old news.  I suspect the real reason a lot of the people showed up at that rally was because they knew that some of those enviro-chicks as shown in the video are HOT!

[ka3zlr]

Speaking of Waste and the Chinese, there is way to much waste here, but in my travels to the junk yard once a month roughly, even the price on cast iron is way up, and I wonder how many folks know about the extreme exporting of scrap metal to China..  here we are At war..(Police Actions), our currency is flat on it's back, we're Bailing out Credit institutions Now, and we're exporting our scrap metal overseas...Interesting Times here...

But we need more casinos in Pa.

[W8EJO]

A point I have frequently made, (and as this video clearly shows) the hard core environuts are really anti-capitalist marxists. They love the "useful idiots" who fall in line & follow.

The real nuts are the people who find a political bogeyman hidden behind every tree (or smokestack).  Marxism is dead. If you don't believe me, just ask the Chinese.  Learn to live with it. Even if some are scientifically misguided, the vast majority of the people involved in environmental issues are there because they believe in the cause, not because of some sinister hidden political agenda.

Open your eyes & ears.

Didn't you listen to what Greenpeace co-founder Patrick Moore said in the video? The enviro movement has been taken over by eco-marxists. That's why he left.
You must not have listened to the chants at the so called "Earth Day" rally. "Hey hey, ho ho, greedy capitalists have got to go". Or how about some of the placards: "F**k the rich, save the poor", etc. Where's the environmental message in either of those slogans?

The radical leaders of these groups have an anti-business, anti-growth, anti technology vision of the world. Don't believe me:

A) Look at the evidence:
1) They have fought to a standstill the nuclear power industry in this country.
2) They have fought to a standstill offshore drilling in this country.
3) They have fought to a standstill all new refineries in this country.
4) $4.00 gas, economic stagnation & a serious national security situation have developed because of these policies.

B) Read Greenpeace co-founder Patrick Moore on the subject:

http://www.greenspirit.com/key_issues/the_log.cfm?booknum=12&page=3

[Bill, KD0HG]

Terry, I have several friends and acquaintances that a members of enviro groups like the Arbor Day Foundation, a fishing group that supports clean rivers (and anti-dam), a volunteer at one of our national parks, and a Boulder County Open Space group...one is a retired state wildlife officer and NRA member..None of whom are Marxists or radicals of any sort. None are Greenpeace members. Their shared goal is simply not to sh!t where we eat, preserve our open spaces and be of public service.

These sort of environmentalists vastly outnumber the few extremists in this country. You are attributing far too much influence to those on the fringes of society.

A number of proposed oil shale projects in the west are *strongly* opposed by farmers and ranchers that fear pollution, loss of water and other issues. Mistaken or not, these folks are generally political conservatives.

I disagree with your assessment that all environmentalists and opponents of energy projects are radical lawbreakers. This is *not* a black and white issue.

That's my opinion, which you probably disagree with.

[W8EJO]

Terry, I have several friends and acquaintances that a members of enviro groups like the Arbor Day Foundation, a fishing group that supports clean rivers (and anti-dam), a volunteer at one of our national parks, and a Boulder County Open Space group...one is a retired state wildlife officer and NRA member..None of whom are Marxists or radicals of any sort.

These sort of environmentalists vastly outnumber the few extremists in this country.

I don't disagree at all. I too consider myself an environmentalist.

My point is that much of the leadership of these groups have truly radical goals & they use those of us who simply want cleaner water & air to advance their goals.

If wishing death to capitalists & calling them "pigs" that want to destroy the world's oceans & forests isn't radical I don't know what is. 

[KA1ZGC]

You guys need to remember that there's a difference between the followers (that's what they are: not "activists", but followers) and the ones being followed.

The majority are followers. They are only following the leader for one of two reasons:

• It's trendy (all my friends are doing it)
• They're trying to get laid (s/he's hot and goes to all these rallies/protests)

The leaders, on the other hand, have a clear agenda in place; and one only needs to listen carefully to the language being used (and do a little thinking) to see how the power of suggestion comes into play:

Save the planet: this is one of my favorites. How full of yourself can you get? What this suggests is that we are capable of destroying the planet, and it couldn't be more self-important and misguided. The planet created us, not the other way around. If we get out of hand, the same thing will happen to us that has happened to every species whose growth went unchecked: nature will find a way to put us back in our place or eradicate us altogether. The sun will still rise the following morning.

Obscene profits: another insipid brainwashing term usually used by hummer-bombers and other little pukes of that ilk. What this is really saying is that anyone who has earned more than you is evil, and that somehow entitles you to attack them. It says that to succeed in life makes you a bad person, that you should give everything away to those who either couldn't or just plain wouldn't do what it takes to be as successful.

Note: The "that's MINE" generation of baby-boomers like to use this term a lot, because they feel we all owe them the world just because they were born into it (any profits are "obscene" until they're their profits). They forget that their parents fought against things like that (of course, pissing all over their parents' values to suit themselves is another one of those things they feel entitled to, but don't you dare do the same to them).

Filthy rich: I dare you to use the term "filthy poor" in a conversation! Seriously, I want to see someone do it! Then you'll see how much sense that stupid little turd of a statement makes!

Corporate Fatcats: I suppose this is as opposed to the Welfare Fatcats currently sitting on their asses watching Oprah and pounding out a kid every ten months to keep those dollars rolling in? I don't see them doing anything to help "save the planet", especially with all those dirty disposable diapers they generate!

That's not even scratching the surface. I could buzzard each and every single one of you to the grave one at a time with examples of terminology that expects you to accept an underlying premise that is far more insidious and destructive than the term itself without even realizing that you're accepting that premise.

So read through some of the various mantras and manifestos the people who lead these little movements come out with and tell me you can't see it for what it is: a very thinly-veiled attempt to cast those gathered nuts for the winter as evil people for not giving all those nuts away to those who sat on their asses all summer long. That never had a happy ending in Aesop's Fables, why should life be any different now than it was a few thousand years ago?

The followers don't bother to do that (thinking, that is) because they don't care. They don't want to be bothered. Just give them a canned set of beleifs to hold true, a few molatov cocktails, and send them on their way. They're just looking for something to follow because it's trendy or they want to bink another follower.

The leaders are simply looking to force their world-view on others by any means necessary (like firebombing people's vehicles) not so that they can live that way, but so they can tell other people to live that way.

No, the followers don't have an agenda of their own, but they sure put a whole lot of time and effort into pushing someone else's.

When you stop and think about it, that's far more scary and dangerous than if they were doing it on their own motion.

--Thom
Keep Away One Zealous Greenpeace Chump

[W8EJO]

You guys need to remember that there's a difference between the followers (that's what they are: not "activists", but followers) and the ones being followed.............................................................
When you stop and think about it, that's far more scary and dangerous than if they were doing it on their own motion.

--Thom
Keep Away One Zealous Greenpeace Chump

Hear hear!

[K6JEK]

A) Look at the evidence:
1) They have fought to a standstill the nuclear power industry in this country.
2) They have fought to a standstill offshore drilling in this country.
3) They have fought to a standstill all new refineries in this country.
4) $4.00 gas, economic stagnation & a serious national security situation have developed because of these policies.

The energy industries have mostly self inflicted PR wounds.  The PR might be unjust but PR isn't about truth, is it:

The nuclear industry took itself out.  Between Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, enormous cost over runs and other blunders (they built the local nuke plant half backwards), the US nuclear energy industry developed really bad PR.  It  reads:  It's dangerous. It's expensive. The providers are inept. And who needs it, anyway?

The oil industry has done some of the same.  The Santa Barbara oil spill,  a tanker accident in SF in 70's, and Exxon-Valdez all presented horrible images. In California it is in our neighborhood. And while everyone else is suffering the oil companies are racking up unheard of profits.  Besides, 79% of the offshore is already under oil leases and no one is promising anything (low gas prices, for example) for leasing the rest.  PR read:  Fat cats want even more while giving nothing.  They'll probably foul the neighborhood too.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Then we need to make a clear distinction between Joe and Soccer-Mom Audubon Society (the Vast Majority of environmentalists), the campus tree-huggers and the minuscule number of bomb-throwing radical self-styled 'big shots'.

Painting all of them with the same brush and calling all of them obstructionist terrorist commies doesn't cut it and is an insult to the many.

Again, this is not a black-and-white issue.

[W8EJO]

Then we need to make a clear distinction between Joe and Soccer-Mom Audubon Society (the Vast Majority of environmentalists), the campus tree-huggers and the minuscule number of bomb-throwing radical self-styled 'big shots'.

Problem is Soccer Moms (et al) send their money to these groups. The groups, in turn, use the money to advance their agenda (i.e., shutting down the growth of US energy sources) through legislative (lobbying/campaign donations) and judicial action (lawsuits). 

[Bill, KD0HG]

Jon- The US nuclear industry had nothing to do with Chernobyl. Chernobyl happened because of the ineptness of the the politicians, government and plant operators and engineers.

Like they told me in flying school, one mistake won't usually hurt you, make three and then you're likely toast.

Same for Chernobyl; it took a massive screw up on a number of people's part to cause the accident. No one person was responsible. And the same circumstances couldn't happen here.

That's the point I've been making here..As  you in your last comments..The nuclear industry has done a horrible PR and public education job for itself. And 9-11 has made it more secretive. Not good.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Then we need to make a clear distinction between Joe and Soccer-Mom Audubon Society (the Vast Majority of environmentalists), the campus tree-huggers and the minuscule number of bomb-throwing radical self-styled 'big shots'.

Problem is Soccer Moms (et al) send their money to these groups. The groups, in turn, use the money to advance their agenda (i.e., shutting down the growth of US energy sources) through legislative (lobbying/campaign donations) and judicial action (lawsuits). 

Terry, you and I might not agree with some of their agenda, but there's nothing unlawful about any of that, is there?

[W9GT]

I'm all for energy independence!  It is that lack of independence and, perhaps our short-sightedness and poor planning that got us into this mess.  HOWEVER, is there really any guarantee that, assuming domestic production is increased, the product will be sold in the U.S. ??  It may, in fact, be sold to the highest bidder.....just like everything else in a free economy.  That would probably not lead to lower gas prices for us!  The oil companies are global concerns and do not just have allegience to the United States. Hmmmm, I guess we could put some big export tariffs on it 

I believe most of the oil coming out of Alaska is now going to Japan, not us.  What then, would prevent any new production in Alaska, offshore drilling, or oil shale being sent overseas?  I guess transportation costs would play into the equation, but large contracts with long reaching future commitments might cancel some of those costs out.

I think this is a much more complex issue than most people seem to realize.

73,  Jack, W9GT

[W8EJO]

Terry, you and I might not agree with some of their agenda, but there's nothing unlawful about any of that, is there?

No, of course not.

My point was that the innocent among us, who only want a clean environment, give their $'s to those with more sinister intentions. Those $'s, in turn, are used to advance a radical agenda.

This was one of Patrick Moore's points here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjVOfs21tsA&feature=related

and here:

http://www.greenspirit.com/key_issues/the_log.cfm?booknum=12&page=3

[K6JEK]

Jon- The US nuclear industry had nothing to do with Chernobyl. Chernobyl happened because of the ineptness of the the politicians, government and plant operators and engineers.

Like they told me in flying school, one mistake won't usually hurt you, make three and then you're likely toast.

Same for Chernobyl; it took a massive screw up on a number of people's part to cause the accident. No one person was responsible. And the same circumstances couldn't happen here.

That's the point I've been making here..As  you in your last comments..The nuclear industry has done a horrible PR and public education job for itself. And 9-11 has made it more secretive. Not good.

Yes, the US guys shouldn't have been sullied by Chernobyl but they were.  I was just suggesting it wasn't so much enviro-wacko commies that gave nuclear power a bad name as it was the incidents surrounding nuclear power.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Marxism is dead. Really?  Tell that to the people who were recently freed from a Marxist group in Columbia just a few weeks ago and to the hundreds the group still holds hostage.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN2451150020080724?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews


It isn't the soccer moms that get the headlines and news coverage. So, even if you are right Bill, they are not driving the dialog. And that is vitally important to recognize and deal with. If we, as a country, are to have a real conversation about the environment and then come up with a sane strategy on to protect it, we cannot let the most obtuse and radical among use dominate the conversation. Most soccer moms are clueless about what some of these so called environmentalists actually stand for. The same is true of most soccer dads. Identifying these groups is not painting with a broad brush.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Steve, blaming the well-intended Joe or Jane enviro for the excesses of a few whackos is no different than holding churchgoers responsible for crimes committed by their preachers. It's wrong and I don't agree with you.

Bringing up Marxists in Columbia, Cuba, North Korea or elsewhere is a red herring. We're discussing the political and legal processes in the USA.

Yes, ignorance on the part of the public is part of the problem. A lot of problems.

The crazy thing is that even well-informed, honest, intelligent people often disagree. That's the way it is. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[W2XR]

Guys,

Please forgive this observation, but what does nearly all of this thread have to do with AM or amateur radio???

It has been interesting reading, but perhaps a bit off topic.

Just my thoughts.

73,

Bruce

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Steve, blaming the well-intended Joe or Jane enviro for the excesses of a few whackos is no different than holding churchgoers responsible for crimes committed by their preachers. It's wrong and I don't agree with you.

 I never blamed them. Where did you get this from?

My point is that Jane and Joe aren't part of the conversation because they get little news coverage. The many whackos do. Of course, this is not Jane and Joe fault (for the most part). But it is still a problem. And that's my point. You can bring up the existence of Jane and Joe all you want. If their voice is not heard, their existence is of little meaning. The bottom line is they are either part of the solution or part of the problem. If, in their ignorance, they fund groups with whackos or whacko ideas, then they are part of the problem.

Bringing up Marxists in Columbia, Cuba, North Korea or elsewhere is a red herring. We're discussing the political and legal processes in the USA.

Total non-sequitur since that comment was directed at Don, K4KYV who made the claim Marxism is dead. It is no more dead than Fascism, both of which have proponents right here in the good old USA.

Yes, ignorance on the part of the public is part of the problem.

Bingo. And that was my point. How can ignorance be overcome when sane people aren't usually involved in the conversation?

[k4kyv]

There are a few Marxist extremist nutcases scattered around the world in every country.  But the international Marxist movement went belly up 18 years ago.  The only officially Marxist governments left in the world are in Cuba and N. Korea and they are too busy trying to keep from imploding, to be any real threat to the rest of the world, unless by exporting weaponry to whoever has highly sought-after hard cash.  Even with Chavez in power, Venezuela's government is not Marxist.

As with Marxists, there are Fascists elements throughout the world, but the international fascist movement died in 1945.  There is nothing in the world to-day that compares to the Hitler-Mussolini-Franco axis that led to WW2.

It's a pity that Timothy McVeigh didn't stay around long enough to see his thunder stolen on 11SE01.

The real threat we face now is not so much from political, but from religious extremism - and I am not so sure that's entirely Islamic.

[W3RSW]

Bruce 2xr wrote;
"Please forgive this observation, but what does nearly all of this thread have to do with AM or amateur radio???
It has been interesting reading, but perhaps a bit off topic.
Just my thoughts.
73, Bruce"

At first glance I tend to agree, even wrote a "when will you make an end" post,  but on second thought, this board of reasonably intelligent AM'ers seems to offer the best dialog, observation, social theory, honest debate, honest and gentle clarification of environmental, energy extraction, production, distribution and utilization policies of any board I've seen.  Radicalism is soon erased in a flurry of logic.  Mantras are reduced to their basal underpinnings of control.  Leadership is earned not worshipped.

Why such a good venue on AMfone.net?  Not because we're star annointed, politicians, acedemics and other vetted 'experts' for the most part but because we have the common interests of a minority in what may be perceived as a very technical field.  Our minority mode knowledge and application thereof almost insures that we have a real grasp of our avocation and in most cases that grasp of fundamentals has bled into our vocation.

 We come from all sorts of backgrounds, from PhD's to the "hands on," school of hard knocks.  Few of us are handsome or beautiful.  "Beautiful people" we don't identify with. The closest some of us have come to such has been as 'roadies' and as such have seen the seamy underside of the 'glitterati.'  OUr incomes, other interests and social relationships range all across the human spectrum.

We're inquisitive, handy, smart, arguementative when need be, sometimes rash, sometimes reflective, sometimes forgiving.... you name it, not all necessarily the best of human behavior, but behavior all across the board which is coupled with logic.
 
Most of us listen as well as speak our piece. 
That's why this board is as good as any and if for no other reason, we're civil to each other. Sure we have our spats, board withdrawals and maybe worse, but we get all points of view, some very well thought out and documented.  I can't think of a better bunch to argue with if that's what I feel I have to do.  Once in a while I actually listen too, - hey, maybe even on the air.
 
 

[KA1ZGC]

Steve, blaming the well-intended Joe or Jane enviro for the excesses of a few whackos is no different than holding churchgoers responsible for crimes committed by their preachers. It's wrong and I don't agree with you.

If you fund a bank robbery, you are an accomplice. If you fund a hummer-bombing, same deal.

I know what you're going to say: "Well if 'Joe and Jane enviro' (you mis-spelled that, by the way, it's 'F-O-L-L-O-W-E-R-S') don't know what the group they're giving money to is going to do with it, how is that their fault?"

The answer is simple: If you give your money to someone without first finding out what they intend to do with that money, what they stand for, and so on; you are every bit as much to blame as the people you give your ignorant, uninformed, fat-dumb-and-happy money to. That kind of ignorance does not deserve sympathy, it deserves shame.

The followers may not do the dirty deed, but they give aid and comfort to those who do. Any follower who is truly ignorant of the actions of those they follow are far from being excused, they are guilty of a far more subtle (yet equally insidious) injustice.

Consider how well that line of defense worked at Nurnberg. With the exception of one coward who managed to cheat the gallows, a whole lot of people who claimed that same kind of ignorance in their defense wound up J.S. dangling in the breeze like a tire swing, just like they deserved.

Good riddance to them, too.

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught

[N3DRB The Derb]

time to cut this thread off.