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Gasoline Madness;When to Stop




 
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W3RSW
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Rick & "Roosevelt"


« Reply #600 on: August 16, 2008, 08:09:20 AM »

Not from an environmental aspect but from an orfice clogging aspect, I've wondered about using even highly filtered used oil for heating.  All the lead, moly..., other heavy metals from babbit bearings, etc. eventually must clog the burner orfices and leave residues.  What does metal precip. and ash do to piston rings, sealiing, etc.?  Of course lead in gasoline was an anti-knock constituent but that was in a different washover and burn situation.   

And then sort of like the mad cow situation  Grin where cows eat the brains mixed in feed of other cows, hence were susceptible to mad-cow disease, if you keep adding heavy metals to the fuel which bleeds into the sump oil and then keep using the sump oil as recyclable fuel, don't the metal and other dissolved impurities really concentrate?

And then there's the exhaust. 

Well, I digressed and got right to the enviro. stuff, didn't I?
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« Reply #601 on: August 16, 2008, 11:43:39 AM »

Out of the two different applications, the vehicle engines are the one's I'm worried about using the stuff in. As far as burning it for heat, my waste oil furnace in the garage has been gulping the stuff down for years will no ill effects. It will plug the nozzle a couple times a year, but it's normally with sludge and a quick nozzle and filter change takes care of that. Nozzles are about a buck a shot and filters are about the same, so it's no big deal to change them a couple times during the heating season. The soot on the heat exchanger doesn't build up any faster than normal and a quick brush out makes short work of that. My house boiler is a different situation tho. I filtered the hell out of the oil because the firing rate is much lower than the garage unit. Same parts, just smaller. One thing I noticed right off the bat is I had to lower the gph on the noz to get the readings back into line. I set the CO2 back to 13% and still couldn't pick up any smoke (on red, any co2 past 12 produced smoke). The other values all looked good, or better than they were before, so I let it fly for now.

Oil burners are one thing. They're cheap and easy to fix. $8000.00 diesel engines are another story. I'm a little apprehensive about trying it in the engines without spinning it in a centrifuge first. More than likely, I won't try it at all in the engines, but heat for the house and garage? Hell yeah, lemmee at it.   
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« Reply #602 on: August 16, 2008, 06:45:45 PM »

Jared

What do you figure the rough percentages are of the various ingredients in your 'homebrew'? Have been considering your approach to stretch the 'red' but been holding off due to possible soot buildup although it sounds like it may not be an issue.

Results, problems etc would be appreciated as the heating season progresses. Assume your 'brew' tank is indoors?

 

 
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« Reply #603 on: August 17, 2008, 12:55:52 AM »

Well, right now it's more a freehand witches brew than anything else. I only ran this small batch and made 55 gallons into a clean drum just to test the filtering.

Rough guessing the quantities, I'd say at 40% of it is waste motor oil, (wmo Grin), 10% used ATF, 10% misc, like PS fluid, brake fluid, hydr. oil, etc. and the topoff was with waste red gold. (The take home waste oil from yearly tuneups, changing oil tanks, etc.) The waste red oil makes the motor oil content very thin and I feel without it, the resi oil pump on the burner would have a hell of a time.

I looked in the chamber tonight while it was on a hot water cycle and the burn still looks like it did on the startup. I figure I'll let it fly for a couple weeks and check the filters and see if they look like they're getting plugged.

The one thing that cold screw this up is if the mix separates while standing still in the tank. I filled a nice big jar and left it in the sun today and so far it doesn't look like anything is settling out. If anything one part settles to the bottom, and goes into the burner by itself, that would definitely change the flame.

I have another experiment I want to try, but I need a better way to monitor how much oil is burned over a set period of time. I want to try pre-heating the oil before it gets to the burner. Not to waste electricity with a fuel line heater, I thought about wrapping a couple turns of copper, maybe 14" dia. and slipping it under the boiler jacket where things are nice and warm. This loop in series with the feed line coming in just enough to add a few degrees to the oil temp before it hits the nozzle. Carlen did this for years on they're burners with an electric nozzle line heater located inside the burners' blast tube and that was supposed to help get a better burn through better atomization. Just a thought.

More to come later....
73

   
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W1VD
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« Reply #604 on: August 17, 2008, 07:44:01 AM »

Thanks for the info - you're at 60% WO / 40% red. I've read (internet sources  Roll Eyes) that you can run roughly 20% WO / 80% red with no changes to the pump or nozzle. At work we're running a hot air Rheem / Beckett and at home hot water Buderus / Beckett... however both oil tanks are outside. Since cold WO is not a good thing I'm thinking about a smaller indoor tank (warm) for the filtered WO that is 'T' ed into the feed with an adjustable orifice of some sort to adjust the 'mixture'. Don't necessarily have a constant supply of WO so would like to be able to switch back to straight red with minimal changes.
 

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« Reply #605 on: August 17, 2008, 02:51:00 PM »

Oh yeah, you could easily run 20% wmo mixed in with red. I think that 20% figure that pops up is where people seem to start noticing the mix thickening up.

I think trying to meter in the wmo and having the outdoor tank with red is going to be an issue. The viscosity changes too much with outdoor temp, and the pressure on the line changes as the tank level changes. Any kind if metering device inside for the wmo tank is going to be constantly changing the mix going into the burner. The result could be anything from a lean burn that wastes oil ( white color to flame and high stack temps) all the way to a rich condition with a darker orange flame and low stack temps. With that Bud, you want to see stack temps around 320deg, anything lower, and the exhaust could start to condense in the flue causing acid to erode the flue liner. (not to mention CO problems)

Realistically, you could score yourself a decent bacharach combustion annie from eBay for around a $150. CO2, stack temp and smoke are the three most important things that should be watched before introducing anything other than straight red to the burner. I've had my burnham MPO as low as 270deg messing around with various nozzles and kero, and you could actually see steam leaving the flue outside. Not good.

more to come,
73



     
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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #606 on: October 17, 2008, 09:51:36 AM »

As the price of crude tumbles from the summer's record highs, what will become of the push to increase drilling?

It's so much more convenient to just drill more oil than it is to actually conserve right? "Freedom" means driving an 8MPG SUV right?

Looks like conservation has had a major impact. Americans have cut their consumption by 800 milion barrels/month over the last few months & the price of gas has dropped below $3 in some places.  World oil consumption has dropped, and the price of crude has dropped by almost half.

Looks like supply-and-demand worked, after all. 

One thing that has contributed to the decrease in demand is the dearth of credit to pay for it with.  That same credit crunch has dried up funds to pay for more drilling.

Wonder if anyone learnt their  lesson this time.  If the economy ever does recover, will we once again become wasteful and see "déjà vu all over again"?

BTW, I haven't seen any recent figures on the price of copper, but I did catch the tail end of a news report that metal prices are "melting down".  Maybe you will be able to afford that radial ground system, after all.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/14/news/cost_of_drilling/?postversion=2008101516

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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #607 on: October 17, 2008, 12:03:20 PM »


Don:

In early summer, gasoline was up to around $4.50/gallon and diesel was near $5.

The current price of crude is 1/2 what it was then.

Why isn't gasoline $2.25/gallon and diesel $2.50??
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WD8BIL
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« Reply #608 on: October 17, 2008, 12:26:45 PM »

$2.39/gal last nite here in Ohio, Bill.

It's all Bush's fault!
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« Reply #609 on: October 17, 2008, 12:30:43 PM »

$3.039 hear in sorrycuse

.$12 less per gallon in state sales tax than when the price was in the mid $4.


klc

      "  It's all Bush's fault!  "

No, it's because the savior is comming.
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k4kyv
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« Reply #610 on: October 17, 2008, 12:39:40 PM »

In early summer, gasoline was up to around $4.50/gallon and diesel was near $5.

The current price of crude is 1/2 what it was then.

Why isn't gasoline $2.25/gallon and diesel $2.50??

It would be interesting to look at a chart comparing the price at the pump with the price of crude over the past year or two.

The cost of crude is only part of the total cost.  It doesn't cost any less to refine and transport it, so I wouldn't expect the price to be 100% proportional.  At least there is some immediate decrease.  In the past I have seen the price at the pump go up within hours of an increase in crude,  but take weeks to come down with a decrease in crude. 

I suppose they  don't want to  deal with the angry mobs.

The Meltdown's Silver Lining

But not to worry.  You'll still be paying more in months to come.

If one don'ten getcha then t'other one will.
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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
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k4kyv
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« Reply #611 on: October 17, 2008, 12:54:05 PM »


It's all Bush's fault!

Bush?  Who's that?
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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
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« Reply #612 on: October 17, 2008, 02:09:58 PM »

Looks like supply-and-demand worked, after all. 

It always does.

BTW, its all the more proof that if the supply was increased, the price would fall even further. The supply/demand curve has two components not just one as you seem to imply from your argument.

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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #613 on: October 17, 2008, 02:20:41 PM »

$2.39/gal last nite here in Ohio, Bill.



Excellent.
Hopefully it'll come down around these parts too.

I recently filled up with Propane and it was down to $2.05/gal. What a nice break in heating bills. But I just filled up the work truck with diesel this morning and it's still stubbornly near $4.
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NE4AM
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« Reply #614 on: October 17, 2008, 02:57:40 PM »

Anyone care to research the how the price of gas goes down dramatically the month before a presidential election?  If memory serves, this has been the case in the last several elections.
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73 - Dave
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« Reply #615 on: October 17, 2008, 03:00:07 PM »

Diesel and fuel oil will be slow to come down because the cracking plants started early this year when nobody was buying gas.
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #616 on: October 17, 2008, 08:23:06 PM »

All this ignores all the longer term estimates that oil requirements (thus consumption) will continue to rise in the coming years. Most of it is not America. To coin a phrase, we can conserve our way out this.


As the price of crude tumbles from the summer's record highs, what will become of the push to increase drilling?

It's so much more convenient to just drill more oil than it is to actually conserve right? "Freedom" means driving an 8MPG SUV right?

Looks like conservation has had a major impact. Americans have cut their consumption by 800 milion barrels/month over the last few months & the price of gas has dropped below $3 in some places.  World oil consumption has dropped, and the price of crude has dropped by almost half.

Looks like supply-and-demand worked, after all. 

One thing that has contributed to the decrease in demand is the dearth of credit to pay for it with.  That same credit crunch has dried up funds to pay for more drilling.

Wonder if anyone learnt their  lesson this time.  If the economy ever does recover, will we once again become wasteful and see "déjà vu all over again"?

BTW, I haven't seen any recent figures on the price of copper, but I did catch the tail end of a news report that metal prices are "melting down".  Maybe you will be able to afford that radial ground system, after all.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/14/news/cost_of_drilling/?postversion=2008101516


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« Reply #617 on: October 18, 2008, 09:14:24 AM »

Hedge funds and mutual funds have had to sell out everything at whatever cost to get cash for their record customer redemptions.   This eliminated oil futures speculation by these guys.   It is now more supply and demand and not speculation controlling the price of oil.   To force gas down more, don't get gas until you need it, it will be cheaper.   Opposite of when it was going up, you got it before the next increase, further increasing demand.

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W3SLK
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« Reply #618 on: October 18, 2008, 09:42:44 AM »

Steve said:
Quote
To coin a phrase, we can conserve our way out this.

I thought it was funny back a few months ago when congress was making the suggestion that they ad an extra $0.12/gal on the fuel tax. The reason was that there was so much conservation in the US that not enough funds were going into the "highway maintenance fund" (or whatever they call it). The 'leftists' that were suggesting it later reconsider realizing there was no way they would be able to keep their cushy jobs nor even have a chance of regaining the White House.

BTW: Has anyone taken note that this about the longest running thread on the board??
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Mike(y)/W3SLK
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« Reply #619 on: October 18, 2008, 03:39:25 PM »

Supply-and-demand is only one part of the economics behind the recent downtrend in gas prices.

This all started when the markets (notice that's plural) got hit after the recent bank failures. Everybody has been focused on the stock markets (again, plural), and one can hardly blame them, because that's where a lot of their retirement money is.

The mercantile markets also lost tremendous value as a result of the same phenomenon. Almost every commodity whose futures are exchanged on the open market (raw materials like metals and crude oil) saw their prices plummet at the same time our stocks did.

What is taken away with one hand is given back with the other. Bad news for those who play the commodities markets, good news for those who consume those commodities.

Unfortunately, we won't see much drop in heating oil prices because the distributors have already bought their supplies for the winter at the sky-high prices of a month or two ago. Every indication was that oil was going to continue to cost a small fortune for the forseeable future (just read back in this thread a ways, we all beleived the same thing, and rightly so). The distributors have to sell this oil off before they can buy any more, so we're stuck with the price they bought in at.

This is not to say that supply and demand had nothing to do with it. Supply and demand was what stopped the oil futures from shooting up any higher than they did before the crash. The demand sank far lower than the speculators (those managing our retirement funds) predicted it would. They realized they had passed the point of diminishing returns, so they headed for the exits. The rising crude prices hit an essential plateau at that point.

Even with the effect of the hit on the mercantile markets (mostly because of the hit on the stock and credit markets), demand is still far lower than it was before the Great Oil Futures Orgy, and this may well help keep the gas prices down to a reasonable level. We can hope so, anyway.

Just another piece of the 10,000-piece puzzle.

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught
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WB2RJR
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« Reply #620 on: October 18, 2008, 05:56:10 PM »

So you lads got what you asked for, oil below $70 a barrel.

Are you happy now?Huh??
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« Reply #621 on: October 18, 2008, 06:59:14 PM »

Mary said:
Quote
So you lads got what you asked for, oil below $70 a barrel.

Are you happy now???

I won't be happy until it is below $20 a barrel Wink Heh, heh.
My only thing in all this is that it will fuel, (pun intended) complacency and all research in alternative fuel resources will cease. Americans tend to have a short memory, (the oil embargo of the '70's). This might last for a while but it will ultimately be dropped until the oil traders cause the price to rise again. Personally, I would like to tell the foreign people whom we get our oil from "No Thank you, we have enough," with the exception of Hugo Chavez who I would tell to "Stick the oil where the sun don't shine and pills can't reach!"
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Mike(y)/W3SLK
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« Reply #622 on: October 19, 2008, 11:30:51 AM »

110 octane is still $8.00 at the track, the same as it was when gas was pushing $5.00 out here.   That's at Laguna Seca where the final race in the American Le Mans Series happened yesterday.

I don't think those guys care about the price very much.

Race was a bust, half under the yellow flag.   Audi diesels went 1,2.  Acuras had most of the rest of the top spots but Porche clinched the manufacturers trophy by one point.


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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #623 on: October 19, 2008, 08:54:14 PM »

Iraq oil should be ZERO
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